Re: Re: Pathology of Trichothecene Mycotoxins in Man A. Croft, D.V.M., Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

Jeanine,

This is a good description of your experience and observations about

various molds. I'd like to clarify something about which molds over-

grow others and when.

Aspergillis and Penicillium are some of the faster growing molds but

Rizopus and some others are rapidly gowing, covering an entire

culture plate in a day or so. I'll call them rapid, moderate and

slow. Stachybotrys is a slow growing mold.

If the analysis of the culture plate stops once colonies are obvious

then only the rapidly growing ones will be reported. If the plates

are allowed to grow longer, then the moderate ones will grow large

enough to see, but will be somewhat obstructed by the thin layer of

the rapid ones. Moderate colonies are often thicker than the rapid

growers, with a greater chance of blocking not only the slower ones

but some of the moderate ones as well. What is not visible from the

top side of the plate is sometimes visible through the bottom.

Another factor is competition between types of mold. This is one area

where mycotoxins are produced - to protect food supply form competing

molds. So Pen/Asp-type moderate growers could not only cover up the

slower Stachybotrys but further retard growth because of their

mycotoxins.

However, Stachybotrys has a different growth cycle based on time. It

begins to thrive about the time Pen/Asp-types have reached their max

growth (under certain conditions). Now Stachy has the upper hand in

terms of vitality and its ability to produce mycotoxins to further

retard the moderate growers. So Stachy begins to dominate at the

expense of others. Under proper conditions Stachybotrys can now

become a very rapid grower. It just starts slowly.

Labs can use specific agars (food) in the plates to optimize or

retard fast, moderate and slow growers (among other factors). They

can also treat the agars to select certain ones by retarding the

gowth of others. Temperature and humidity can also be used. For

example, some species can only be identified based on temp and

humidity affecting growth. Labs can be quite sophisticated at finding

what is on a culture plate. Many are now offering combinations of 2

or 3 agars for a single analysis.

One implication is ALL methods of culturing are selective of some and

retarding of others. No single method can give you a definitive

representation of what is in the air. For example, if I want to

sample for bacteria I simply use a culture plate with a different

agar (food). When I sample for mold, I bacteria is collected also but

it doesn't grow well on the agar for mold so mold is what is seen and

identified.

Temperature, humidity, food source etc is present in the real world

even more so than in the lab. Include time, especially months and

years without stopping the moisture, and who knows what's there. No

one has really looked. These two are part of what the Inst of

Medicine reported in Damp Indoor Spaces and Health.

Your experience changes from one location with dampness to another

without. That is a more powerful and accurate indicator of what you

need to do than any lab test or series of tests for mold and bacteria

and actinomycetes etc etc etc.

Stop the moisture and remove the mold which is already there, and so

so with mehtods that don't spread it to clean locations. The types of

mold and/or bacteria and/or yeast does not change what to do to stop

the exposure, stop the growth and prevent its recurrance. If you

can't fix it or leave, which is the situation a lot of you are in,

then trying to reduce exposure is all that is left.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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> stachy dies back when it dries and isn't really noticeable.

> the only tome you might see it is when it's wet and growing. and it

> really likes the dark, I never saw any black mold for years only

> noticed my house dust was getting black toward the end of liveing

> there when it was getting accumalated pretty heavy in the first floor

> walls. the dry mold dust was what was makeing me more sick more

> constant as it accumalated in the house.

> my experience with it is that it's when it's dry and airborne is when

> it gets in your system. I always had relief when it was rainy.

> the spores and toxins accumalate inside,settle and get stirred up by

> windy days and air currents from heating systems. in a cictoria built

> home with steep roof and open inside walls to basement most

> accumalation was roof edges(sofit area) and because tin drip on roof

> ledges was not done right this added to leaks thar ran inside walls

> down to basement and mold dust settled to the basement and areas

> inside walls which resulted in higher exposures when dry windy days

> stirred it up and blew into liveing areas and in winter from dry mold

> dust getting blown up from basement. to me haveing stachy from roof

> leaks where it dies between rains means lots of myco's being put out

> everytime it grows and starts drying.

> weather it was the 100+ years of dust in this home or the extra help

> of bat poo and pee(from them getting in where flashing was missing on

> the roof) or the horse hair plaster that help it grow, I dont know.

> what I do know is that the second home which had a constant

> moisture/hummidity problem,

> aspergillus/penicillium,chaetomium,alternaria where the over takeing

> molds. stachy was found there on tape test so it was there but the

> moisture in this home may have kept it weighed down and slimed more.

> but what ever blew out of the duct work made me throw up constantly

> amoung other things and vomitoxin comes to mind. however mold testing

> there was not done while I was still liveing there and ac was on but

> with moisture problems in this home it might be very hard to get good

> testing if asp/pen is going to overgrow on test samples.? and I cant

> afford more testing right now.

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> FAIR USE NOTICE:

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[Guest guest]

Jeannine - you bring up a good question there..

What happens with trichothecene toxicity in water damed buildings when they

dry out and then get wet again over a long time..

When you have a scenario where a building has repeated cycles of wet and dry

periods. Does the persistance and longevity of trichothecenes cause a

buildup?

Thats one scenario.. There is also the kill off scenario.. for example, in

wine and beer, the yeast produce ethanol, which is a mycotoxin in that

context.. when the ethanol content reaches a certain point, the fermentation

stops.. but that kills off the yeast..

Which one happens with stachy that dies and feeds on other molds.. what

happens to the trichothecene toxins in dead dried out stachy dust when its

eaten by other molds or even new stachy.. Do they build up, given their

durability?

This is an interesting question.. because it could explain why some

buildings can have so many problems.. until they are fully cleaned out.. and

why superficial cleanups often don't make buildings safe.. unless they get

into the wall cavities that hold those long years of unrecognizable as

spores, built up toxin laden dust..

[Guest guest]

Jeanine,

You had a combination of problems that I usually see distributed

among several houses. Three of which are in separate law suits by

three different clients. " Trust but verify " before you sign the

papers.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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> Thanks Carl, I have little dought that there were several molds not

> detected in my second house and with moisture problems and humidity

> documented even in the fall when air tests were done and humidity was

> twice as hugh as outside, no dought of voc's and bacteria there. a

> correction on my post that ac was NOT on at time of testing and I was

> no longer liveing there. went in once that summer and it was like a

> sauna in there. ever see a house so infested that it created it's own

> moisture problem? to much to get into with this place but basidly

> fraud,fraud and more fraud. a half assed remediation took place in

> order to make it appear liveable after setting 30+ years broke down,

> mold infested. the list is a long one for lies on disclosure

> statement. a example: it advertized a new drilled well with plentiful

> water supply which ended up being a 60+ year old bang well,

> contaminated,caseing completely rusted away and they put 5 ft. of new

> caseing in the top and a new well cap on it. NRD put camera's down in

> it. surface water running in,ect. had to fill it as it's been caveing

> in around it. a case of ex realestate agent and her husband that knew

> exactly what was at stake, bought cheap, rigged up to sale by another

> real estate broker,lifelong friends. they even went and got a lawyer

> together and had him send me a letter saying I was hurrassing them

> and to have no further contact.

> this was after they had no problem haveing house tested for rayon but

> when rayon testing co. said it needed tested for toxic molds I was

> than hurrassing them by asking for this to be done. and gee, at the

> time the real estate broker was begging me to let him work out the

> problems found so far which included the well and had been promiseing

> me a new drilled well and was so nice lol's that he even insisted on

> testing the water for contamination himself when after the first

> several weeks went by and the water in the " new " drilled well didn't

> clear up like promised. you know, those new drilled wells have to run

> awhile at first.

> thing was, his water test came back normal while the health dept.

> tests didn't. hehe, oops I forgot to tell him that the health dept.

> and NRD had been on the case of the contaminated " new drilled well " .

> and when I did tell him after he handed me his results that showed no

> contamination, he became quite nervous and than said we'd just go by

> the results of the health dept. as he probably did his wrong. thing

> is that no matter how wrong you do it you cant make contaminated

> water come back not contaminated.

> just a small example of goings on at the death house that tried to

> kill me..

>