Re: Re: Need Help! Does mold remediation work?

November 21, 2007

Carondeen: What you and others do not realize is that your are probably

colonized with mold. The lalte Dr. Marinkovich firmly believed that this is

what is occuring. An as example, indivdiuals with Aspergllosis from A.

fumigatus, versicolor, ustus and niger have an infectious process going on.

Also, the mycotoxin, Gliotoxin, as been demonstrated in lung secretions and sera

of these patients. Those who do not want you to know the truth deny that mold

colonization can take place in people with fairly normal immune systems. For

your and others information gliotoxins are immune suppressing mycotoxins. Other

mycotoxins can also have adverse affects on the immune system. Thus, you carry

you illness with you no matter where you may go.

Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist

Immunotoxicologist

Fetal Toxicologyist

toxicologist1@...

[] Re: Need Help! Does mold remediation work?

Please take my advice-do not by any means attempt to remediate- move-

I have been fighting this illness now for many years, and if there is

one thing I have learned-it is that taking extreme precautions early

in the illness may pay off later in being able to have a life. Not

being extreme enough will only mean continual moves and less and less

healthy days. The more you are exposed the sicker you become-even

with almost no toxin. I can now not live in even a normal house- I

have tried remediation-if you are sensitized it will not work.

> These results are for our moldy house #2. (We evacuated moldy

house #1 about 7 months ago). We are highly sensitized to mold and

are having symptoms from our new house already. We even brought

contamination back with us to the hotel we're staying in. The

industrial hygienist thinks the house can be remediated and we should

be able to live in it.

>

> Any advice? Has anyone successfully remediated a moldy house?

Thanks so much in advance..

>

> Mold Hostage

>

> ---------------------------------

> Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

>

November 21, 2007

Dear Dr. Thrasher,

The other day I read that stachybotrys can produce a cyclosporin that

suppresses the immune system, that is 1/3 as potent as cyclosporin A.

(I'm reposting the PubMed abstract below)

I've repeatedly seen it stated by those who should know that many

mycotoxins in their role as immunotoxic compounds can also cause

(many) autoimmune diseases and it makes total sense but I don't know

the approach to locate, key phrases to use, etc. to find the science

behind these particular mold driven toxic processes.

There is TONS of stuff on T2 toxin and other of the non-macrocyclic

trichothecenes that seemed to occur during a spurt of research during

the 80s but I have not seen much else on immunotoxicity except one or

two statements that the macrocyclic trichothecenes were much stronger

and not much specif data other than one thing by Ueno (I forget the

ref, I only have the abstract) on satratoxin H (I think) in which he

says that the stachybotrys mycotoxins in general are the most

immunotoxic, thats it. I don't have the paper, just the short

abstract.

No more.

If you had any resources to point me to on mold and possible etiology

of autoimmune disease, I'd appreciate it.

This begs the question, why isn't research being done because this

clearly is a BIG part of the health puzzle and its being left to the

imagination?

Technical is fine, I try to absorb as much as I can and learn what I

need to learn as best as I can.

Here is the cyclosporin in stachybotrys link. Cyclosporin isn't a

trichothecene, I am gathering. Do you know of any references on its

effects in chronic, low level exposure situations?

J Antibiot (Tokyo). 1993 Dec;46(12):1788-98.

Erratum in:

* J Antibiot (Tokyo) 1994 Feb;47(2):C-1.

FR901459, a novel immunosuppressant isolated from Stachybotrys

chartarum No. 19392. Taxonomy of the producing organism, fermentation,

isolation, physico-chemical properties and biological activities.

Sakamoto K, Tsujii E, Miyauchi M, Nakanishi T, Yamashita M,

Shigematsu N, Tada T, Izumi S, Okuhara M.

Exploratory Research Laboratories, Fujisawa Pharmaceutical Co.,

Ltd., Ibaraki, Japan.

FR901459, a novel immunosuppressant, has been isolated from the

fermentation broth of Stachybotrys chartarum No. 19392. The molecular

formula of FR901459 was determined as C62H111N11O13. FR901459 was

found to be a member of the cyclosporin family. However, it is

structurally distinct from any other cyclosporins discovered so far,

in that Leu is present at position 5 instead of Val. FR901459 was

capable of prolonging the survival time of skin allografts in rats

with one third the potency of cyclosporin A.

Publication Types:

* Comparative Study

PMID: 8294235 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

On Nov 21, 2007 4:04 PM, Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...> wrote:

>

> Carondeen: What you and others do not realize is that your are probably

> colonized with mold. The lalte Dr. Marinkovich firmly believed that this is

> what is occuring. An as example, indivdiuals with Aspergllosis from A.

> fumigatus, versicolor, ustus and niger have an infectious process going on.

> Also, the mycotoxin, Gliotoxin, as been demonstrated in lung secretions and

> sera of these patients. Those who do not want you to know the truth deny

> that mold colonization can take place in people with fairly normal immune

> systems. For your and others information gliotoxins are immune suppressing

> mycotoxins. Other mycotoxins can also have adverse affects on the immune

> system. Thus, you carry you illness with you no matter where you may go.

>

> Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

> Toxicologist

> Immunotoxicologist

> Fetal Toxicologyist

> toxicologist1@...

>

November 21, 2007

I doubt that you totally regained your health. Most likely you felt a 1000 %

better. Once you returmed to a close environment with all the chemicals and

possibly mold that are present, your illness came back. Mold victims develop a

variety of chemical sensitivities. Since the death of Dr. Marinkovich, the

physicians in the country that do full diagnosis and treatment are Gray,

Benson, Arizona and several others.

[] Re: Need Help! Does mold remediation

work?

>

> Please take my advice-do not by any means attempt to remediate-

move-

> I have been fighting this illness now for many years, and if

there is

> one thing I have learned-it is that taking extreme precautions

early

> in the illness may pay off later in being able to have a life.

Not

> being extreme enough will only mean continual moves and less and

less

> healthy days. The more you are exposed the sicker you become-even

> with almost no toxin. I can now not live in even a normal house-

I

> have tried remediation-if you are sensitized it will not work.

>

> > These results are for our moldy house #2. (We evacuated moldy

> house #1 about 7 months ago). We are highly sensitized to mold

and

> are having symptoms from our new house already. We even brought

> contamination back with us to the hotel we're staying in. The

> industrial hygienist thinks the house can be remediated and we

should

> be able to live in it.

> >

> > Any advice? Has anyone successfully remediated a moldy house?

> Thanks so much in advance..

> >

> > Mold Hostage

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

> >

November 21, 2007

It is 10:00 PM on the West Coast. I am going to bed and will answer and comment

tomorrow morning.

Good night to all and have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[] Re: Need Help! Does mold remediation work?

totally agree with your last sentence-- " Thus, you carry you illness

with you no matter where you may go " .

until deep detoxification occurs, any *improvement* or well-being felt

will be temporary.

>

> Carondeen: What you and others do not realize is that your are

probably colonized with mold. The lalte Dr. Marinkovich firmly

believed that this is what is occuring. An as example, indivdiuals

with Aspergllosis from A. fumigatus, versicolor, ustus and niger have

an infectious process going on. Also, the mycotoxin, Gliotoxin, as

been demonstrated in lung secretions and sera of these patients.

Those who do not want you to know the truth deny that mold

colonization can take place in people with fairly normal immune

systems. For your and others information gliotoxins are immune

suppressing mycotoxins. Other mycotoxins can also have adverse

affects on the immune system. Thus, you carry you illness with you no

matter where you may go.

>

> Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

> Toxicologist

> Immunotoxicologist

> Fetal Toxicologyist

> toxicologist1@...

>

November 22, 2007

Dr. Thrasher,

Have a Wonderful and Happy Thanksgiving. Darlene

[] Re: Need Help! Does mold remediation work?

totally agree with your last sentence-- " Thus, you carry you illness

with you no matter where you may go " .

until deep detoxification occurs, any *improvement* or well-being felt

will be temporary.

>

> Carondeen: What you and others do not realize is that your are

probably colonized with mold. The lalte Dr. Marinkovich firmly

believed that this is what is occuring. An as example, indivdiuals

with Aspergllosis from A. fumigatus, versicolor, ustus and niger have

an infectious process going on. Also, the mycotoxin, Gliotoxin, as

been demonstrated in lung secretions and sera of these patients.

Those who do not want you to know the truth deny that mold

colonization can take place in people with fairly normal immune

systems. For your and others information gliotoxins are immune

suppressing mycotoxins. Other mycotoxins can also have adverse

affects on the immune system. Thus, you carry you illness with you no

matter where you may go.

>

> Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

> Toxicologist

> Immunotoxicologist

> Fetal Toxicologyist

> toxicologist1@ ...

>

November 22, 2007

: you are absolutely correct. Researchers at the May Clinic, NY have

demonstrated in my professional opinion that molds cause chronic sinusitis and

can be isolated from the sinuses. If one has chronic sinusitis that is

refractory to antibiotics, then biops or sinus washings should be cultured for

mold.

[] Re: Need Help! Does mold remediation work?

totally agree with your last sentence-- " Thus, you carry you illness

with you no matter where you may go " .

until deep detoxification occurs, any *improvement* or well-being felt

will be temporary.

>

> Carondeen: What you and others do not realize is that your are

probably colonized with mold. The lalte Dr. Marinkovich firmly

believed that this is what is occuring. An as example, indivdiuals

with Aspergllosis from A. fumigatus, versicolor, ustus and niger have

an infectious process going on. Also, the mycotoxin, Gliotoxin, as

been demonstrated in lung secretions and sera of these patients.

Those who do not want you to know the truth deny that mold

colonization can take place in people with fairly normal immune

systems. For your and others information gliotoxins are immune

suppressing mycotoxins. Other mycotoxins can also have adverse

affects on the immune system. Thus, you carry you illness with you no

matter where you may go.

>

> Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

> Toxicologist

> Immunotoxicologist

> Fetal Toxicologyist

> toxicologist1@...

>

November 22, 2007

If stachy was found, I'd be very nervous because that indicates long

term HIGH levels of moisture.

Here is something to think about. Water permeation of a building with

stachy may have permeated it with mycotoxins.

I read some relatively new research the other day (see first abstract

below) that some stachybotrys mycotoxins are water soluble which

implies to me that if there was a very bad stachybotrys problem in a

building, the building might have dissolved mycotoxins in any building

materials that had been water saturated in close proximity to

stachybotrys mold. (see the two papers below)

To me, that may mean that to completely get rid of the toxicity in a

building that had had an extreme stachy situation over a long time, it

might have to be gutted and all porous materials replaced. Imagine the

cost of stripping it down to its wooden frame, perhaps sand or dry ice

blasting the top quarter or so inch of wood off that frame, even, and

then having to completely rebuild it, floor walls, windows,

everything. That could cost a lot.

If there are spaces iside the walls that have mold inside of them,

also don't expect them to say 'here we are' on tests. They don't, they

are hard to find.

Another recent study showed that 99% of the spores in stachy growth

remain attached to the conidaphores, even under typical wind

conditions. That says to me that we see a LOT of false negatives when

spore tests are the only kind of tests done. A LOT. Because spore

testing relies on spores just blowing into them or being deposited on

them. Stchybotrys only sporulates when its dying. If a building has

been unoccupied, and dry, the stachy in the walls will be dead and

wont sporulate. It wont be found unless you go looking for it or are

living there and get sick from it and realize it right away.

The implications of both of these study results when taken together is

pretty scary for those hoping to remediate buildings with serious,

longterm water damage economically.

It also runs counter to what most remediators profess to believe (that

stachybotrys mycotoxins are not soluable in water and also, - separate

issue - that the results of spore tests are in some way proportionate

to the amount of health issues in a building.)

One could make an argument that there is a very good chance that many

buildings that had been repeatedly flooded and which had had

stachybotrys problems it would make more sense to switch into a mode

that emphasized removal and replacement of all water soluable building

materials down to the studs, rather than spending precious money on

cycles of testing in a futile hope that a building could be

superficially remediated without replacing all the sheetrock.., etc.

The reason being that testing would be likely to show false negatives

and indicate the building was safe when it wasn't.

Spore testing that shows spores present at a given time and place do

show spores present at that time and spot. Its just that they often

wont show stachy spores that may exist in situations just a few feet

away, where there is a major stachy problem inside the walls. Also, a

mycotoxin problem that is a legacy of long periods of mold growth-

that wont show up on spore tests at all, the spores would likely have

long ago turned to dust, but the toxins can persist and they do

clearly then still make people sick.

J Microbiol Methods. 2006 Aug;66(2):354-61. Epub 2006 Feb 23.

Solvent comparison in the isolation, solubilization, and toxicity

of Stachybotrys chartarum spore trichothecene mycotoxins in an

established in vitro luminescence protein translation inhibition

assay.

Black JA, Foarde KK, Menetrez MY.

Microbiology Department, RTI, 3040 Cornwallis Road, Research

Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA. jab@...

It is well known that non-viable mold contaminants such as

macrocyclic trichothecene mycotoxins of Stachybotrys chartarum are

highly toxinigenic to humans. However, the method of recovering native

mycotoxin has been without consensus. Inconsistencies occur in the

methods of isolation, suspension, preparation, and quantitation of the

mycotoxin from the spores. The purpose of this study was to provide

quantitatively comparative data on three concurrent preparations of

10(6)S. chartarum spores. The experiments were designed to

specifically evaluate a novel method of mycotoxin extraction,

solubilization, and the subsequent inhibitory effect in an established

in vitro luminescence protein translation assay from 30 day-old

spores. The mycotoxin-containing spores swabbed from wallboard

cultures were milled with and without glass beads in 100% methanol,

95% ethanol, or water. Milled spore lysates were cleared of cell

debris by filter centrifugation followed by a second centrifugation

through a 5000 MWCO filter to remove interfering proteins and RNases.

Cleared lysate was concentrated by centrivap and suspended in either

alcohol or water as described. The suspensions were used immediately

in the in vitro luminescence protein translation assay with the

trichothecene, T-2 toxin, as a control.

Although, mycotoxin is reported to be alcohol soluble, the level of

translation inhibition was not reliably satisfactory for either the

methanol or ethanol preparations. In fact, the methanol and ethanol

control reactions were not significantly different than the alcohol

prepared spore samples. In addition, we observed that increasing

amounts of either alcohol inhibited the reaction in a dose dependent

manner. This suggests that although alcohol isolation of mycotoxin is

desirable in terms of time and labor, the presence of alcohol in the

luminescence protein translation reaction was not acceptable.

Conversely, water extraction of mycotoxin demonstrated a dose

dependent response, and there was significant difference between the

water controls and the water extracted mycotoxin reactions.

In our hands, water was the best extraction agent for mycotoxin when

using this specific luminescence protein translation assay kit.

PMID: 16497399 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

also (showing why spore testing of air and swabs will show false negatives)

Fungal Genet Biol. 2007 Jul;44(7):641-7. Epub 2006 Dec 24. Links

Biomechanics of conidial dispersal in the toxic mold Stachybotrys chartarum.

Tucker K, Stolze JL, Kennedy AH, Money NP.

Department of Botany, Miami University, Oxford, OH 45056, USA.

Conidial dispersal in Stachybotrys chartarum in response to

low-velocity airflow was studied using a microflow apparatus. The

maximum rate of spore release occurred during the first 5 min of

airflow, followed by a dramatic reduction in dispersal that left more

than 99% of the conidia attached to their conidiophores.

Micromanipulation of undisturbed colonies showed that micronewton

(microN) forces were needed to dislodge spore clusters from their

supporting conidiophores. Calculations show that airspeeds that

normally prevail in the indoor environment disturb colonies with

forces that are 1000-fold lower, in the nanonewton (nN) range.

Low-velocity airflow does not, therefore, cause sufficient disturbance

to disperse a large proportion of the conidia of S. chartarum.

PMID: 17267247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

also

Detection of Airborne Stachybotrys chartarum Macrocyclic

Trichothecene Mycotoxins in the Indoor Environment

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/11/7376

also

Detection of Airborne Stachybotrys chartarum Macrocyclic

Trichothecene Mycotoxins on Particulates Smaller than Conidia

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/1/114

etc..

November 23, 2007

Yes. Many mycotoxins are water soluble. Yes, stachy spores do not get into the

air very readily. If they are in an air sample then the infestation of the

home/bulding is very heavy. Stachy spores only get released upon dessicattion

and disturbing the colony.

This is one reason that bulk sample of materials is very important. Although

stachy is no in the air, bulk samples will reveal either the modl by culture or

its mycotoxins. Also, when culturing stachy it is very fastidious and other

molds will crowd it out. Specific cultures must be done to reveal stachybotrys.

Re: [] Re: Need Help! Does mold remediation work?