Re: If you had known sooner, would you have left?

[Guest guest]

, I both agree and disagree with your position. I too do not follow any dogma BUT I do feel very bound by every promise that I make. That does not mean that IF I had felt that my marriage way unendurable that I would not divorce, but that I would give it every chance and opportunity to survive that I could. I do agree that most people now expect everything to be easy, which marriage rarely is, and they don’t really give it a fair shake. Cheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of EyreSent: April-18-12 5:08 AMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: If you had known sooner, would you have left? I've only been giving cursory quick-scan attention to this particular thread, but one thing which strikes me as odd is that nobody has so far mentioned marriage vows.Now I'm not a religious type and I don't believe in following any kind of dogma, but doesn't the fact that a couple have promised to " have and to hold each other until death do they part " bear any weight in this issue these days?All the talk about choosing whether to leave or stay together seems to be based purely on selfish pragmatic considerations. Doesn't breaking one's promise come in to it all? I know it used to in times gone by. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but a promise is a binding agreement, and in my book, people shouldn't make promises if there's any doubt about whether they're going to be able stick to them. Life would generally be a lot simpler if that held true, at any rate.In my own case, my first marriage quickly went downhill after my NT wife had my unwanted child. We weren't happy but I still felt I had an obligation to stick with it because that's what we'd promised. In the end my wife filed for divorce and I was given no choice in the matter, but I still felt bad about being forced to break my promise.(diagnosed AS 29 yrs later)

[Guest guest]

I am sorry to say it but I laughed as I read this because when I hit bottom I too dreamt of killing my husband. I would lay awake watching him sleep thinking of all of the ways I could kill him and then myself. That was when I sought help which eventually lead to being diagnosed. My only wish is that I had sought help sooner! What is truly amazing is that six months later I was more in love with him than I was before we were married. I never could have imagined that was possible. Cheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of HardinghamSent: April-18-12 6:22 AMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: If you had known sooner, would you have left? For me, breaking a vow certainly did and still does bear weight. However, I don't believe that self preservation or mental health are selfish pragmatic issues. I left when I knew that one of us would end up dead, by my hand, and I really didn't have a preference whether it was him or me. I had an elaborate fantasy about burning the house down, because so many of our fights were over the house and money; then I figured I'd do it with me inside; then (and I liked this idea even better) I figured I'd kill him and burn the house down with us both inside. About then I figured that I had a problem, so I left. If we'd known sooner it MIGHT have made a difference in knowing what he could deal with and what he couldn't, and when my expectations were unreasonable. We may have been able to work out a way to communicate honestly. I don't know. We were married for 20 years, and still very good friends for the 3 years since the divorce. I've recently (sadly) asked him not to contact me unless it is about the children. I've only been giving cursory quick-scan attention to this particular thread, but one thing which strikes me as odd is that nobody has so far mentioned marriage vows.Now I'm not a religious type and I don't believe in following any kind of dogma, but doesn't the fact that a couple have promised to " have and to hold each other until death do they part " bear any weight in this issue these days?All the talk about choosing whether to leave or stay together seems to be based purely on selfish pragmatic considerations. Doesn't breaking one's promise come in to it all? I know it used to in times gone by. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but a promise is a binding agreement, and in my book, people shouldn't make promises if there's any doubt about whether they're going to be able stick to them. Life would generally be a lot simpler if that held true, at any rate.In my own case, my first marriage quickly went downhill after my NT wife had my unwanted child. We weren't happy but I still felt I had an obligation to stick with it because that's what we'd promised. In the end my wife filed for divorce and I was given no choice in the matter, but I still felt bad about being forced to break my promise.(diagnosed AS 29 yrs later)

[Guest guest]

Hmmm, I have been reading these when something catches my eye. I took my vow as serious but when I was as the other one here was thinking how much better life would be if he were dead I knew I had to get out. I was so overwhelmed I couldn't see any other way out and even then we were in counseling. The counseling helped but when your partner wants nothing to do with a diagnosis and is trying to figure out what's wrong with me, I realized nothing was going to change. I admit I do have many faults but I was getting help to make myself a better person. He still tries to intimidate me into thinking he has the all answers, I just say "Hope that works for you". Our son who is 11 has taken this change like I couldn't have imagined. He has been in counseling as well. Our household is now a

day without waiting for a mistake being pointed out or correction being made. Now I don't have to worry about changes in our lives going on without my knowledge. No more excuses, his favorite " I was doing it for us". There was no us if I wasn't included. Anyway, my prayers go to everyone here for a "Happy and Peaceful Exsistence". For now I have found mine for the most part.

Kathi

To: aspires-relationships Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 9:05 AMSubject: RE: If you had known sooner, would you have left?

I am sorry to say it but I laughed as I read this because when I hit bottom I too dreamt of killing my husband. I would lay awake watching him sleep thinking of all of the ways I could kill him and then myself. That was when I sought help which eventually lead to being diagnosed. My only wish is that I had sought help sooner!

What is truly amazing is that six months later I was more in love with him than I was before we were married. I never could have imagined that was possible.

Cheers,

Deb

From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of HardinghamSent: April-18-12 6:22 AMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: If you had known sooner, would you have left?

For me, breaking a vow certainly did and still does bear weight. However, I don't believe that self preservation or mental health are selfish pragmatic issues.

I left when I knew that one of us would end up dead, by my hand, and I really didn't have a preference whether it was him or me. I had an elaborate fantasy about burning the house down, because so many of our fights were over the house and money; then I figured I'd do it with me inside; then (and I liked this idea even better) I figured I'd kill him and burn the house down with us both inside.

About then I figured that I had a problem, so I left.

If we'd known sooner it MIGHT have made a difference in knowing what he could deal with and what he couldn't, and when my expectations were unreasonable. We may have been able to work out a way to communicate honestly. I don't know. We were married for 20 years, and still very good friends for the 3 years since the divorce. I've recently (sadly) asked him not to contact me unless it is about the children.

I've only been giving cursory quick-scan attention to this particular thread, but one thing which strikes me as odd is that nobody has so far mentioned marriage vows.Now I'm not a religious type and I don't believe in following any kind of dogma, but doesn't the fact that a couple have promised to "have and to hold each other until death do they part" bear any weight in this issue these days?All the talk about choosing whether to leave or stay together seems to be based purely on selfish pragmatic considerations. Doesn't breaking one's promise come in to it all? I know it used to in times gone by. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but a promise is a binding agreement, and in my book, people shouldn't make promises if there's any doubt about whether they're going to be able stick to them. Life would generally be a lot simpler if that held true, at any rate.In my own case, my first marriage

quickly went downhill after my NT wife had my unwanted child. We weren't happy but I still felt I had an obligation to stick with it because that's what we'd promised. In the end my wife filed for divorce and I was given no choice in the matter, but I still felt bad about being forced to break my promise.(diagnosed AS 29 yrs later)

[Guest guest]

That is ok. We'll dock you a few points for not running your response through a

spell check, and still give you an A for your response.

>

> My apologies as I forgot to run my post through the spell check.

>

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>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Yes, well thanks for the comments. You do all seem to have convincing

> reasons why breaking your promises is/was a lesser evil than the

> consequences of staying together.

I thought the comments you received were excellent, . The decision

to stay or leave a marriage is a complex one. This is not an issue that

can be intelligently evaluated with black-and-white thinking based on

the presence of a vow alone. That is just too one-dimensional and

simplistic. There are many shades of gray to consider, the presence of

a vow being only one among many.

> Attitudes on this have definitily changed over the years though,

> because it didn't used to be like this. Couples somehow managed to

> muddle through and make the most of a bad job.

Much of that was due to necessity, usually on the part of the woman.

Mostly due to economic dependence on the husband, women had little

choice but to stay in marriages filled with verbal/physical abuse,

infidelity, substance abuse, and loneliness. As a housewife or low-wage

earner, how would she support herself and her children if she was to

leave? Moreover, most people still lived in small towns and were less

mobile. Thus, women feared the judgment of the church, their families,

and their neighbors should they divorce their husbands.

Fortunately, with the rise of the financial independence of women, it's

no longer necessary to remain within a soul-killing marriage. And

children are often better off as a result of that broken vow.

Nostalgia is a trap that distorts thinking. The illusion of the " good

ol' days " is exactly that, at least for most people.

I highly recommend the following books by Coontz, author,

historian, and professor of history and family studies.

The Way We Never Were: American Families And The Nostalgia Trap

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Never-Were-Nostalgia/dp/0465090974/ref=sr_1_sc_1?i\

e=UTF8 & qid=1334793022 & sr=8-1-spell

The Way We Really Are: Coming To Terms With America's Changing Families

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-We-Really-Are/dp/0465090923/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8 & \

qid=1334793022 & sr=8-2-spell

Very good reading, and great mythbusters....

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

Liz wrote:

> I'm not NT, but I was married to a fellow Aspie.

[ snip ]

>

>> Just wondering, for those of you NTs out there who are in long-term

>> relationships and marriages with Asperger's partners. If you had

>> known sooner, would you have left? Do you regret your relationship

>> now that you look back?

I too married one; though at the time neither of us knew the status of

the other. And neither of us could know that both of us were wrong.

Just as in most AS+NT/NS relationships it didn't take long for

" problems " to crop up. It got pretty tough at times; *very* hard. Like

in many disturbed relationships reported here, the problems very nearly

destroyed " us " .

Unlike most others here, the eventual knowledge of my AS (at age 73)

*helped us both* immensely. " Knowledge is Power " , so to speak. We grew

together - not apart - more closely and more firmly than at any time

ever before.

And then - surprise! Before very long it was overwhelmingly obvious to

each of us that my wife too was 'on the spectrum'. Perhaps also unlike

others here, knowing even that *helped* rather than hurt us.

Would I have left, had I known (any of this) beforehand?

Actually, I did know something about my bride (long story) - just

didn't know what it was. So no, I *would not* have left, *did not*

leave on that basis.

Would *she* have left, had *she* known? She says not. The proof may be

that simple: more than a decade after finally knowing - she still hasn't.

In any case I was raised (we were raised) in a different time, to a

different moral tune. Vows, donchaknow. And responsibility.

Do either of us regret the relationship? NO.

Would either of us want to change anything, were we magically to have

the chance? The quick answer, almost obvious answer is " Of course! "

But a moment's reflection brings a realization:

Each of us (you too) is the product of *all* our experiences. That

includes all our past trials as well as our successes. To start over

could change the arc of our *entire lives* - change BOTH the trials AND

the successes.

For one, I believe I'd take what I've been given already. Overall,

" life " has been good to me.

Both I and my wife, the " us " that we share, are stronger for what

we've experienced. Both of us, individually, are better people than we

were 45 years ago. As a couple, we're better off for it. I really

would do it all over again.

- Bill ...AS, ...once again, and still, happily married

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Bency, There's an alternative approach to dealing with family-- whether close or extended -- to what Bill has tried, and it's likely to work differently, if not better. But no matter what tack you take, "your mileage will vary."One thing that makes checking out one's family easier is to look at the positive or unusual/positive traits of ASD in one's nearest relative(s) or partner, and then start looking for the odd but bright ones in the family history. What you're likely to encounter will be the odd ducks who don't fit in along with the ones who aren't "one way or the other," but that's the magic of genetic traits anyway. If you've had a chance to look at some of the positive literature on AS, it might be possible to take an approach to understanding the "where and how" in your family or your husband's family, but I'd suggest that doing a geneological search in the early stages of your own discovery may not be the best use of your time, or your energy. Your husband may not want to know all that much about his extended family, although it's difficult to imagine that he wouldn't at least be curious about his closest, first order relations (immediate family). After all, he's a "product" of socialization at their hands.

As Bill has already pointed out, reactions to outright mention of the "A" word in any of its forms is likely to get you some blank stores and -- as in his case as well -, some recrimination or outright denials when you and even the denier "know differently." So what's the sense of stirring up the hornet's nest via a search that may be based on a complex personal agenda rather than a rah-rah family-encouraged research endeavor? The other thing to keep in mind is that your relationship is yours, and not that of your relatives nor, really, "their business," whether on your side of the family or your partner's. Were it any other kind of situation, you'd hear THAT from them in a hurry. While it may be awkward to explain yourself or make excuses after family members have badgered you about not being social or being outright avoidant of family gatherings, it's your right and your husband's right to determine how you'll handle family stuff, and really, it IS no one else's business but yours. It's also awkward when one of the two partners of a marriage makes it to a family event without the accompanyment of "the other." In fact, that's likely to stir up more unpleasantness than not going at all with any variety of acceptable excuses, including some common white lies that are considered not only acceptable, but "common" and once offered or stated, nothing more is usually said about them.

As far as "disclosure" is concerned, there hasn't been that much very recent discussion on this list about its dynamics outside of mentioning it in the context of close relationships. One single source that might be helpful is "Coming out Asperger - Diagnosis, Disclosure and Self-Confidence" (2005) edited by Dinah Murray published by Kingsley Publishers a few years ago but still very much in print. This single book really covers the gamut from "always do it" to "whoa! why bother?" and everything in between. It's also written from a fully adult point of view and contains a wide variety of "takes" on the matter of disclosing. There are recent books written from a biographical point of view that are well-written, but don't cover all of the complexities involved in the self-discovery and disclosure process.

The one thing that hasn't really been covered, yet, even in the "partner literature" in a way that might be helpful for discussion on this list, is how partners can mutually confront and deal successfully with the issue of disclosure. To some extent, Marci Wheeler and her co-authors have gotten very close to this, but the orientation of their work is still "inward bound" primarily, rather than taking the issue as it presents itself, via the couple as a unit, to "the outside world."

I assume this less-than-completely-covered issue is already on someone's "gotta write it list," and if not there, possibly a good topic for someone's doctoral dissertation in a graduate program for clinical psychologists, social psychologists, or specialties in the sociology of knowledge or disability studies. I wouldn't be surprised if students at Syracuse University, the University of New Hamphire's Institute on Disabilities, or some other such university known for widely scaled advanced study in significant social differences aren't tackling the topic.

N. Meyer

Up here in NW Oregon huggin' the trees

Re: If you had known sooner, would you have left? > >Bency Oonnoonny wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> My name is Bency and My husband has recently been diagnosed with AS. He >> is 43 and was diagnosed 5 months ago. It has been a journey but clearly >> no one caught it until now so we have a ways to go. This has been a long >> and lonely road but I am delighted to find a support group that can >> understand. I love my husband and I know he tries but does anyone have >> any advice when it comes to dealing with friends and families? >> >> Even “close friends & family†that know he is autistic will still try to >> force spontaneous visits and argue with me about large holiday events. >> We have been together for 5 years but only married for 1. They feel >> anger towards the both of us and I get a lot of judgment. > [ snip ] >> Any input would greatly appreciated. > >Ah Bency... You have my sympathies - in spades. "Family"... Been >there; done that. > >My own family (maternal; I can't get any handle on my father's side) is >the archetypical *large* kindred. > A published genealogy shows many hundreds, thousands(?), ...all of >them un-reconstructed Old School Mennonites (Anabaptists) of one or >another sectarian persuasion. Hundreds of my closest relatives are >"River Brethren" in Illinois and Missouri. > >Awhile ago I embarked on a trip (with prior permission) to visit many, >trying to trace the autism which (*I* know) runs in my family. > All those I visited vigorously denied any knowledge of autism or >anything at all that might smell like it. NIMBYs, with a twist. > >The only one now still talking to me is a more enlightened 1st cousin >(and church Elder) who still visits - charitably - another 1st cousin >institutionalized at age 14 (now about 80). > She is only now known to be autistic. Was "feeble-minded" before; >by most accounts is not now and never was anything of the sort. "Ed" >still denies she's autistic, though officials don't anymore. > >Bency, I think you'll find mere *implications* of "mental illness", >particularly of autism (which usually *isn't* an illness), scares the >pants off most people. Even today with so much information readily >available. > >In my own personal family, all of whom should know better, *none* will >acknowledge that I am, they are, or their children may be "on the >spectrum". ...Though several are! > >Makes life (communication!!) really hard. > >Best of luck to you. > >- Bill ...AS, retired clinical/research geneticist > >-- >WD "Bill" Loughman - Berkeley, California USA >http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Re: If you had known sooner, would you have

left?

 

CJ wrote:

Great post, . It really highlights why these questions cannot be

answered in any meaningful way based on the AS issue alone. The answer

really is person-specific.

----Yes, absolutely right.

That being said, we all have painful life experiences associated with

certain labels. While it may not be 'fair' to have a kneejerk reaction

to the label based on those experiences, humans are emotional creatures

and their feelings often trump what is rational. They may not realize

this on a conscious level and vigorously deny it, yet their behavior

speaks their truth. That is why prejudice (and we all have some) are so

difficult to overcome.

----True enough. And it is also true that labels can sometimes help, or

at least point us in the right direction. I wouldn't have found this list

if there wasn't a label called Aspergers!

Personally, knowing that I don't usually communicate well with AS men, I

probably would be tempted to not even open the door to a possible

relationship with an Aspie man. However, if he doesn't wear his AS

label like a badge of honor and identity during the time while we are

getting to know each other, it will be much easier for me to see him as

an individual.

----Agreed. And the person that I referred to, that I would marry in a

minute, is not dx'd either; wouldn't want or need to be at this stage in his

iife. I just recognize the AS traits and have great admiration for how

he has adapted with them (he is a successful college professor and award-winning

author.)

Besides, I firmly believe that disclosure of anything very personal

should be commensurate with the depth of the relationship. If someone

dumps their entire life history on me early in our acquaintance, that's

a warning sign to me that the person may be gullible, indiscreet,

desperate, and require me to be their social 'guide' through life. To

me, these are not attractive attributes in a partner as I'm not looking

for a man to 'mother' -- I want a reasonably equal partner in life.

--- And you said a mouthful, there. The number of marriages that have been

killed by women in the mothering role toward a spouse, I fear is legion.

Oftentimes

it's our own doing, unintentionally, but once you go down that route it can be a

slippery

slope to get back out and get things on equal footing again, if it's even

possible.

And so much for intimacy... in fact a friend once used the line,

" till beds do us part " ....

[Guest guest]

> And you said a mouthful, there. The number of marriages that have been

> killed by women in the mothering role toward a spouse, I fear is legion.

Oftentimes

> it's our own doing, unintentionally, but once you go down that route it can be

a slippery

> slope to get back out and get things on equal footing again, if it's even

possible.

> And so much for intimacy... in fact a friend once used the line,

> " till beds do us part " ....

I agree with you, . Marriages that mimic a parent/child dynamic

just seem unhealthy to me. These relationships are often breeding

grounds for resentment as well, as the work of being the 'parent' to

another adult will eventually take its toll.

Perhaps some women gravitate toward this role because of their own

family of origin, repeating familiar patterns. Those with codependent

tendencies may also be attracted to such relationships, as it feeds a

need for them to endlessly do for others (until they burn out).

Best,

~CJ