Re: FEMA trailer residents worry about mold

[Guest guest]

well,well, now just how did we all know this was going to become a

factor. humm, I also see many possable cases of MCS comeing up in the

near future.

--- In , " tigerpaw2c " <tigerpaw2c@...>

wrote:

>

> FEMA trailer residents worry about mold

> Thursday, December 27, 2007

> The Mississippi Press - gulflive.com - Pascagoula,MS*

> By CHERIE WARD

>

>

http://www.gulflive.com/news/mississippipress/index.ssf?/base/news/11

> 98754124149510.xml

>

> GAUTIER -- Although the Federal Emergency Management Agency

> announced that trailers will be tested for formaldehyde, some

> County FEMA trailer occupants are shopping for extra

> cleaning supplies to fight what they say said is black mold.

>

> Government scientist will begin Friday measuring formaldehyde

> emissions in hundreds of FEMA trailers across the Gulf Coast, but

> Sonya Bartholomew said FEMA should be testing for black mold, too.

>

> Bartholomew and her family have lived in the Jefferson Street FEMA

> park for nearly a year. She said black mold began appearing almost

> immediately and that FEMA representatives have made several trips

to

> her trailer to inspect the problem.

>

> " And they just spray bleach on it, " Bartholomew said. " It doesn't

> matter if you scrub and scrub -- it just comes right back. "

>

> " We haven't had a problem with formaldehyde that I know of, "

> Bartholomew said. " Just mold everywhere. "

>

> Cheryl Bozeman, a FEMA spokeswoman, said Wednesday that trailer

> occupants should call the agency's maintenance support center at

866-

> 877-6075 to report any mold.

>

> Bozeman said FEMA responds to complaints by sending someone to

> inspect the trailer and, if mold is found, a contractor is brought

> in to remove it.

>

> FEMA on Wednesday did not immediately have available numbers on how

> many mold complaints the agency has received or responded to.

>

> Bobby Cochran, who lives across from Bartholomew, said he's

> experienced breathing problems for nearly two years -- the entire

> time he's lived in the park.

>

> " I lived here a year with black mold, " Cochran said. " I've got

> lawyers involved and everything. I cough and gag all the time and

> spit up black stuff 24-7. It won't heal up. I don't know if it's

> formaldehyde or mold or both. "

>

> Cochran said he can spend a couple of nights in a hotel and his

> condition will improve.

>

> " But, then I come back and it starts over again, " Cochran

> said. " They need to test for formaldehyde, but they need to do

> something about the black mold, too. "

>

> Countryman, who lives in the Ingalls Avenue FEMA park said

> her trailer has black mold as well.

>

> " It's in the sink, beside the tub, everywhere -- put it that way, "

> Countryman said. " I don't know about formaldehyde -- I just know

> about the mold. "

>

> She said when she calls FEMA to report the mold -- which Countryman

> said was there when she moved in two years ago -- she's told to

> clean it herself.

>

> " They tell me the mold problem is mine to handle, " Countryman

> said. " I'm fighting a never-winning battle. "

>

> More than a year has passed since FEMA started fielding complaints

> from people who suspected their trailers were emitting hazardous

> levels of formaldehyde, which is sometimes found in household

> building materials and can cause respiratory problems.

>

> FEMA has temporarily suspended sale of its trailers and says it

> won't be using them as temporary shelters for disaster victims

until

> safety concerns are addressed.

>

> A final report about formaldehyde emissions is expected in May.

>

> Reporter Amber Craig and the Associated Press contributed to this

> report. Reporter Cherie Ward can be reached at

> cward@... or 228-934-1442.

>

[Guest guest]

This is great news that some of the resident's are getting wise to what I

believe (know) to be the real problem in these trailers. I wish I had a way

of sharing my story with them.

I suffered for over a year in one of these and it wasn't from the

formaldehyde.

http://geocities.com/antares4141/moldpics/trailers.html

Hopefully this can bring the publics attention to the fact that their are 1

to 4 million people whom are suffering from cfs, mcs, me, etc. And how many

may be suffering needlessly from a very diagnosable and treatable illness

(mold related illness). And how this hurts everyone not just those that

suffer.

<http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZP1z9EdVi8 & feature=related>

Hopefully we can discredit those that have lumped us with the 911 and UFO

crowd.

We have a pathogen and we have very sick people this is not rocket science!

Hopefully we can one day rally public support for this problem and bring an

end to it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NZP1z9EdVi8 & feature=related

Without this I see little hope for change.

These resident's that suffer from this need to stress it's about diagnosis

and treatment for ALL those that suffer not money. It's about the CDC

answering why some (many) react this way to mold while most don't.

On Dec 27, 2007 1:38 PM, tigerpaw2c <tigerpaw2c@...> wrote:

> FEMA trailer residents worry about mold

> Thursday, December 27, 2007

> The Mississippi Press - gulflive.com - Pascagoula,MS*

> By CHERIE WARD

>

> http://www.gulflive.com/news/mississippipress/index.ssf?/base/news/11

> 98754124149510.xml

>

> GAUTIER -- Although the Federal Emergency Management Agency

> announced that trailers will be tested for formaldehyde, some

> County FEMA trailer occupants are shopping for extra

> cleaning supplies to fight what they say said is black mold.

>

> Government scientist will begin Friday measuring formaldehyde

> emissions in hundreds of FEMA trailers across the Gulf Coast, but

> Sonya Bartholomew said FEMA should be testing for black mold, too.

>

> Bartholomew and her family have lived in the Jefferson Street FEMA

> park for nearly a year. She said black mold began appearing almost

> immediately and that FEMA representatives have made several trips to

> her trailer to inspect the problem.

>

> " And they just spray bleach on it, " Bartholomew said. " It doesn't

> matter if you scrub and scrub -- it just comes right back. "

>

> " We haven't had a problem with formaldehyde that I know of, "

> Bartholomew said. " Just mold everywhere. "

>

> Cheryl Bozeman, a FEMA spokeswoman, said Wednesday that trailer

> occupants should call the agency's maintenance support center at 866-

> 877-6075 to report any mold.

>

> Bozeman said FEMA responds to complaints by sending someone to

> inspect the trailer and, if mold is found, a contractor is brought

> in to remove it.

>

> FEMA on Wednesday did not immediately have available numbers on how

> many mold complaints the agency has received or responded to.

>

> Bobby Cochran, who lives across from Bartholomew, said he's

> experienced breathing problems for nearly two years -- the entire

> time he's lived in the park.

>

> " I lived here a year with black mold, " Cochran said. " I've got

> lawyers involved and everything. I cough and gag all the time and

> spit up black stuff 24-7. It won't heal up. I don't know if it's

> formaldehyde or mold or both. "

>

> Cochran said he can spend a couple of nights in a hotel and his

> condition will improve.

>

> " But, then I come back and it starts over again, " Cochran

> said. " They need to test for formaldehyde, but they need to do

> something about the black mold, too. "

>

> Countryman, who lives in the Ingalls Avenue FEMA park said

> her trailer has black mold as well.

>

> " It's in the sink, beside the tub, everywhere -- put it that way, "

> Countryman said. " I don't know about formaldehyde -- I just know

> about the mold. "

>

> She said when she calls FEMA to report the mold -- which Countryman

> said was there when she moved in two years ago -- she's told to

> clean it herself.

>

> " They tell me the mold problem is mine to handle, " Countryman

> said. " I'm fighting a never-winning battle. "

>

> More than a year has passed since FEMA started fielding complaints

> from people who suspected their trailers were emitting hazardous

> levels of formaldehyde, which is sometimes found in household

> building materials and can cause respiratory problems.

>

> FEMA has temporarily suspended sale of its trailers and says it

> won't be using them as temporary shelters for disaster victims until

> safety concerns are addressed.

>

> A final report about formaldehyde emissions is expected in May.

>

> Reporter Amber Craig and the Associated Press contributed to this

> report. Reporter Cherie Ward can be reached at

> cward@... <cward%40themississippipress.com> or

> 228-934-1442.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would like to point out that formaldehyde is still an issue with respect to

FEMA trailers. In addition, mold is also an issue. Therefore, two adverse

health effects are working in concert. Formaldehyde is a sensitizer, i.e. it

causes allergic rhinitis, asthma and skin disease. The most serious of the skin

diseases is toxic epidermal necrolysis. Although the concentration of

formaldehyde does decrease with age of the trailer, the sensitivity to

formaldehyde is still present. Molds are infrequently sensitizers, that is IgE

mediated allergies are rare with mold exposure. The health problems associated

with microbial growth arise to toxic effects of several different groups of

chemicals, e.g. mycotoxins, MVOC, endotxins, exotoxins, 1-3 beta glucans,

galactamannins, etc. I suggest that you go back into the annals of formaldehyde

and discover the health problems associated with formaldehyde. I would love to

have a legal case where both formaldehyde and mold exposures have occurred. I

would have a hey day in the deposition. Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

I lived in one of these trailers " brand new right off of the lot " for a

little over a year. It wasn't the formaldehyde that was making me so sick I

wanted to die it was the mold.

On Dec 29, 2007 12:54 AM, Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

> I would like to point out that formaldehyde is still an issue with

> respect to FEMA trailers. In addition, mold is also an issue. Therefore, two

> adverse health effects are working in concert. Formaldehyde is a sensitizer,

> i.e. it causes allergic rhinitis, asthma and skin disease. The most

> serious of the skin diseases is toxic epidermal necrolysis. Although the

> concentration of formaldehyde does decrease with age of the trailer, the

> sensitivity to formaldehyde is still present. Molds are infrequently

> sensitizers, that is IgE mediated allergies are rare with mold exposure. The

> health problems associated with microbial growth arise to toxic effects of

> several different groups of chemicals, e.g. mycotoxins, MVOC, endotxins,

> exotoxins, 1-3 beta glucans, galactamannins, etc. I suggest that you go back

> into the annals of formaldehyde and discover the health problems associated

> with formaldehyde. I would love to have a legal case where both formaldehyde

> and mold exposures have occurred. I would have a hey day in the deposition.

> Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr. Thrasher.

Question: Say that one is living in a leaky trailer and it has been

determined to have both mold (and company) and formaldahyde. And the family is

sick, exhibiting symptoms that are known to be indicative of a form of

poisoning.

How does one go about teasing out if it is the formaldahyde or the toxins of

a WDB.. or both that is causing the ill health?

Sharon K

In a message dated 12/29/2007 5:38:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

toxicologist1@... writes:

: You have missed my points. It maybe true in your case that the

formaldehyde did not bother you, but it is not true for everyone. I have

published

papers on the immunotoxic properties of formaldehyde in the very young to

the elderly. Its adverse health effects are very deleterious. I am requesting

that you do not mislead individuals who have had exposure to both formaldehyde

and damp indoor spaces. There is more than just mold in such damp

environments. Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

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[Guest guest]

: You have missed my points. It maybe true in your case that the

formaldehyde did not bother you, but it is not true for everyone. I have

published papers on the immunotoxic properties of formaldehyde in the very young

to the elderly. Its adverse health effects are very deleterious. I am

requesting that you do not mislead individuals who have had exposure to both

formaldehyde and damp indoor spaces. There is more than just mold in such damp

environments. Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Thrasher, How would I be able to tell if there is formaldehyde with the

cabinets and carpet that was installed last year in my apartment. With living

with mold in the HVAC, air borne etc. how would I know if there were any

formaldehyde other than experts testing cabinets (they are not wood cabinets),

and carpet which looks like a cheap indoor outdoor type carpet, but not sure.

The carpet was glued down to cement throughout my apartment (wall to wall,

except bathroom and a small hallway, and kitchen.) I would hope there wouldn't

be any. Darlene

" Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. " <toxicologist1@...> wrote:

: You have missed my points. It maybe true in your case that the

formaldehyde did not bother you, but it is not true for everyone. I have

published papers on the immunotoxic properties of formaldehyde in the very young

to the elderly. Its adverse health effects are very deleterious. I am

requesting that you do not mislead individuals who have had exposure to both

formaldehyde and damp indoor spaces. There is more than just mold in such damp

environments. Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Dr Thrasher,

I can't speak intelligently on the formaldehyde but I can on the mold. If

you want to post your work here or refer it with a link I will try to take a

look at it. Although I am overwhelmed now with a lot of other issues so I

probably won't be able to do anything but skim over it. I do agree that

chemical exposure can be very dangerous. Pesticides are what caused my

sensitivity to mold but I have had lots of chemical exposures occupationally

and hobby wise also and I don't discount these completely as far as the

effect they may have had on my health or my present state of disability. I

do try to put everything into perspective though.

I do know that mold is very common and this is why very few legal cases

ever result in victory, because the nagging question is why don't we see

" MRI " everywhere mold is endemic and with some type of predictable

consistency. That's why I harp on the point that we shouldn't be claiming

mold " made " us sick, simply that we are getting sick from it. VERY SICK.

This would be much better received by the scientific community especially

if we were to insist something Set's us apart from the general population

that seems unaffected.

Same can be said about formaldehyde. Unfortunately part of life is taking

risk's, and engineers try to access the risk's when making allowances for

these substances. I believe the trailers fall below this guideline. Also the

manufactures never intended them to be lived inside of. The first page of

the owners manual says this and also voids all warranty's implied if such is

done. I don't have the time to research this but the first thing I would do

if I did would be to look at statistics of formaldehyde exposures and known

effects. Course these are a very rough gauge. Because we all know that just

because authority's say something is safe and doesn't cause illness doesn't

make it so. I usually stay away from scientific papers because they almost

always use jargon that is going to leave me in the dust. I will although

read something that is geared towards the lay person.

On Dec 29, 2007 7:40 PM, Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...> wrote:

> : You have missed my points. It maybe true in your case that the

> formaldehyde did not bother you, but it is not true for everyone. I have

> published papers on the immunotoxic properties of formaldehyde in the very

> young to the elderly. Its adverse health effects are very deleterious. I am

> requesting that you do not mislead individuals who have had exposure to both

> formaldehyde and damp indoor spaces. There is more than just mold in such

> damp environments. Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, your blowing my mind dude. seems we have treaded these waters

before. you know it didn't fly the first time. I have a pretty good

idea why, but I'm not saying nothing except that you cant change things

to fit your needs and to hell with everybody else.you cant change

facts. I am done wasreing time trying to get you educated on this,

because it's very clear to me that you have convienced yourself of what

you want to believe.and you really aren't helping yourself. take a step

back and consider a dofferent angle like the truth, win or lose. now if

you want to have a debate with Dr. Thrasher, you best give him your

whole story. which might shed some light on things, think so? now I've

gone out of my way for you a few times but I'm done now.

>

> : You have missed my points. It maybe true in your case that

the formaldehyde did not bother you, but it is not true for everyone.

I have published papers on the immunotoxic properties of formaldehyde

in the very young to the elderly. Its adverse health effects are very

deleterious. I am requesting that you do not mislead individuals who

have had exposure to both formaldehyde and damp indoor spaces. There

is more than just mold in such damp environments. Jack D. Thrasher,

Ph.D.

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't read all the info from this thread yet but I know the US

accepts wood products with formaldehyde that other countries will not

accept. Seems like the US is the dumping ground for products that are

not accepted elsewhere. I know I can't be near many wood products

especially if I went to Home Depot or someplace like that.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I just recently joined this list and have been following your posts.

I am a little confused on what your arguments are but I do want to

say a word or two about my situation and formaldehyde. What I can

tell you, although I am sensitive to mold, I am MUCH more sensitive

to formaldehyde and have been since I was a student in high school

and was exposed to the fumes from the science classroom. We could

never figure out why I kept falling asleep in Algebra class next

door. At the time, I did not know that is what I was reacting to the

chemical volatiles. My sensitivity got worse in college because of

the labs I had to take and became ill every time I had class. The

headaches were excrutiating and my roomate used to make fun of me

because she could smell the chemical smell I excreted even after I

took a shower which I did right after walking through the door after

class. Now, I can not even get close to the stuff or I have a

reaction and my CFS/MCS kicks in.

Since I had nothing " better " to do, I did a little research on the

chemical for you. Some of it may be technical the other is, I believe

quite understandable. I also include the sources just in case you

want to read more about it. Also the last document I sourced with the

table is an online book and the studies were done on mobile homes

that were designed to be lived in. The long document is in the file

folder but here are some excerpts about formaldehyde:

1. " It is a mutagen; namely it is capable of attacking the genetic

materia of cells, and producing permanent genetic damage. "

2. " The data suggest a modifier role of environmental or endogenous

formaldehyde for epithelial cell functions. "

3. " Reviewed formaldehyde and changed its evaluation from probably

carcinogenic (class 2A) to carcinogenic for humans (class 1) based on

nasopharyngeal cancer, a very rare cancer. "

4. " " Formaldehyde was also designated as a toxic air contaminant

(TAC) in California in 1992 with no safe level of exposure. "

5. " " Nevertheless, chemically reactive formaldehyde and free radicals

may damage most of the components of the cells of all animal species,

mainly proteins and lipids. " "

6. " The Connecticut State Department of Health investigated 80

complaints from consumers who had installed urea-formaldehyde foam

insulation in their homes (Sardinas et al., 1979). The insulation had

been installed 3 wk–1.5 yr before the survey. With formaldehyde at

0.5–10 ppm, 69% of the occupants reported eye irritation, 51% upper

respiratory tract complaints, 44% gastrointestinal tract symptoms,

59% headaches, and 40% skin problems. In homes with formaldehyde at

less than 0.5 ppm, 31% complained of eye irritation, 49% upper

respiratory symptoms, 41% headaches, and 60% skin problems. More than

50% of the individuals questioned reported symptoms when formaldehyde

was not detectable using Drager Tubes (minimum detection limit, 0.5

ppm) "

7. " Formaldehyde concentrations of 0.03–2.5 ppm were measured in 74

mobile homes whose occupants complained of odor and irritation

thought to be associated with the use of particle board (Breysse,

1977). Approximately two-thirds of the measurements showed

concentrations of less than 0.5 ppm and 90% below 1 ppm. Symptoms

experienced by the occupants included drowsiness, nausea, headache,

and irritation of eyes, nose, and respiratory tract. Repeat

measurements on two homes indicated half-lives (time for

concentrations to decrease by 50%) of 45 and 110 d. A Scandinavian

study using field tests and mathematical models indicated a half-life

of 2 yr (Hollowell et al., 1979b). The ventilation rate was 0.3 air

changes each hour. The half-lives depend heavily on air temperature,

ventilation rate, surface area of the various products, type of

material, and volume of the residence. "

In the last source above....there is numerous other studies that were

done that details the health effects of those studied. I just did not

want to make this post any longer than it is. Again, I will post the

file in the files folder.

Sincerely,

Kramer

Health Education, Information and Resource Services (HEIRS)

kkramer@...

[Guest guest]

All of my research papers are posted on my website. The site is under

construction so please be accepting. If you read the abstracts and want a

particular paper on formaldehyde, just e-mail me. www.drthrasher.org

Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

: reading only lay type papers on a subject can be misleading. The lay

person cannot get through the jargon as you have indicated. I suggest that you

take a look at my website. there is plenty of information for the lay and

scientific community on: insescticides, formaldehyd, hydrogen sulife, molds,

mycotoxins, among others. I plannning to expand subject matter into

pharmaceuticals of various types that have serious side effects. The latest two

are Terbutaline and autistic spectrum disorders and infant formulated Motrin and

Syndrome.

Educating stubborn people like you has been my life long goal. Jack D.

Thrasher, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

Haley: I will attempt to answer you question as briefly as I can. I have been

involved in several mold cases. We have won some and we have lost some. It all

depends upon how thorough the plaintiff attorney is. Here are my

recommendations below:

1. Air sampling is helpful but not definative. It is usually compared to

outdoor mold spore counts. Outdoor spore counts vary greatly and thus are

meaningless. Indoor concentrations of various species of molds tend to be

fairly constant. Note I said species of molds, not genera. Stachybotrys spores

are generally not very detectable in indoor air because this organism does not

shed its spores very readily. Certain species of Aspergillus and Peniciillium

are elevated indoors vs outdoors. Also Fusarium, Epiccocum, Trichoderma and

others may be elevated indoors vs outdoors. All of this is well defined in the

book edited by Straus, Ph.D. " Sick Building Syndrome. " , Advances in

Applied Microbiology, Volume 55, 2004. This book should be in the library of

every family affected by mold.

2. Bulk sampling should always be done. Determine the species of Aspergillus

and Penicillium that are present

For example, Aspgergillus fumigatus, versicolor, niger and flavus are usually

elevated indoors vs outdoors. Also have the bulk samples tested for mycotoxins.

Dennis Hooper, M.D., Ph.D. (who is a member of this forum) has developed DNA and

mycotoxin testing that can be used in the courts.

3. If the patient is suffering from upper and lower respiratory symtpoms on a

chronic basis I recommend urine mycotoxin testing to see if the patient is

spilling the chemicals in the urine. If positive, then additional testing can

be done on biopsy material, deep early morning sputum, etc. for mold DNA and

mycotoxins. These tests have been positive in both autopsy materials (mold

related deaths) as well as living individuals.

4. Particulates: Laboratories concentrate on mold spores. This is B.S. The

indoor environment consists of nanoparticulates up to larger particulates (MOLD

SPORES). Sufficient evidence is in the scientific literature that demonstrates

the presence of mycotoxins (Brasel papers with Straus) in serum, stachylysin in

the blood (without Stachy spores being in the air). Gorny has demonstrated that

the nanoparticulates are up to 320 greater in concentration than are spores and

hyphae fragments. Also, Brasel has demonstrated that the nanoparticles contain

trichothecenes. Nanoparticles get deep into the alveoli where they freely

exchange their contents with the blood. Thus, spore counts are B.S. Total

particulate load must be determined. The mycotoxins and othe toxins are present

in the nanoparticles.

5. Microbial Growth: Oraganisms other than mold are present. These include

mycoplasma, gram positive and gram negative bacteria. Some of the gram positive

produce exotoxins. The gram negative release endotoxins. These are synergistic

with the mycotoxins. They also have their own toxicity. Some of the gram

negative bacteria are potential pathogens in compromised individuals.

6. Glucans and Galactamannins: These are very irritating and can also have

synergistic action.

7. MVOCs: Microbial volatile organic compounds including aldehydes and

solvents.

8. Time indoors: People on the average spend agout 80 to 85 % of their time

indoors. Depending upon age and where one works this can vary. For example, an

infant and the elderly spend more time at home than do teenagers. Thus, the

argument that the outdoor is contaminated with molds is supercilliary. Finally,

the TEAM studies in the late 1980's and early 1990's clearly demonstrated that

that indoor concentrations of various contaminants exceed outdoor

concentrations. As a matter of fact, volatile compounds entered structures from

the outdoors and became more concentrated indoors vs outdoors.

I trust that the above answers you question. Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

There is also a toxiclogical profile of formaldehyde published by ATSR. It is

available in pdf format

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp111.html

Formaldehyde is also a neurotoxicant and an immune toxicant, in addition to what

you pointed out.

Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dr Thrasher,

I will look some of the stuff over when I feel up to it.

I am going to bow out for now. I have a way of irritating people and I think

I just need to stop.

On Dec 30, 2007 4:12 PM, Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...> wrote:

> There is also a toxiclogical profile of formaldehyde published by ATSR.

> It is available in pdf format

>

> http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp111.html

>

> Formaldehyde is also a neurotoxicant and an immune toxicant, in addition

> to what you pointed out.

>

> Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr Thrasher,

I am gathering from what you are saying that you

DON'T think that, say, doing

a very brief test that includes say two or three

spore trap samples and two or three spore wipes is

going to be as helpful AS IT WOULD NEED TO BE AT ALL

in determining " if a building is safe or not " , (as done in " post remediation "

or " post no remediation " testing, say in response to a tenant or resident test

that has shown a serious problem exists.) Especially

if stachybotrys has been found there in the past?

Can spore testing be used if there has been a known

problem in a building with Stachybotrys, then?

Can and should spore testing ever be used at all for 'post

remediation clearance' of stachybotrys?

> 1. Air sampling is helpful but not definative. It is usually compared to

outdoor mold spore counts. Outdoor spore counts vary greatly and thus are

meaningless. Indoor concentrations of various species of molds tend to be fairly

constant. Note I said species of molds, not genera. Stachybotrys spores are

generally not very detectable in indoor air because this organism does not shed

its spores very readily. Certain species of Aspergillus and Peniciillium are

elevated indoors vs outdoors. Also Fusarium, Epiccocum, Trichoderma and others

may be elevated indoors vs outdoors. All of this is well defined in the book

edited by Straus, Ph.D. " Sick Building Syndrome. " , Advances in Applied

Microbiology, Volume 55, 2004. This book should be in the library of every

family affected by mold.

>

Dr. Thrasher,

Have you seen the following study and would you care to comment on

it's implications for the use of spore trap and spore wipe testing for

stachybotrys?

(99% is an awfully high number and it would indicate to me that even

massive amounts of stachybotrys would be quite difficult to detect

with any spore-based testing method.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17267247

doi:10.1016/j.fgb.2006.12.007

Fungal Genetics and Biology

Volume 44, Issue 7, July 2007, Pages 641-647

Biomechanics of conidial dispersal in the toxic mold Stachybotrys chartarum

Tucker, L. Stolze, H. Kennedy and P. Money

Abstract

Conidial dispersal in Stachybotrys chartarum in response to

low-velocity airflow was studied using a microflow apparatus. The

maximum rate of spore release occurred during the first 5 min of

airflow, followed by a dramatic reduction in dispersal that left more

than 99% of the conidia attached to their conidiophores.

Micromanipulation of undisturbed colonies showed that micronewton (μN)

forces were needed to dislodge spore clusters from their supporting

conidiophores. Calculations show that airspeeds that normally prevail

in the indoor environment disturb colonies with forces that are

1000-fold lower, in the nanonewton (nN) range. Low-velocity airflow

does not, therefore, cause sufficient disturbance to disperse a large

proportion of the conidia of S. chartarum.

Keywords: Allergen; Conidiophore; Digital video analysis;

Micromanipulation; Mycotoxin; Satratoxin; Spore

Also, is stuff like this (paper linked below) what you meant when you

talked about the power of mold to cause illness was not directly

connected to testing that counted numbers of various spores?

One has to wonder why they test for mold spores when there is a known

problem, (except perhaps that the other methods cost hundreds and not

tens of dollars? How much do lives cost?!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15487326

Mycopathologia. 2004 Jul;158(1):87-97

Protein translation inhibition by Stachybotrys chartarum conidia

with and without the mycotoxin containing polysaccharide matrix.

Karunasena E, Cooley JD, Straus D, Straus DC.

Department of Microbiology and Immunology, Texas Tech University

Health Sciences Center, Lubbock, TX 79430, USA.

Recent studies have correlated the presence of Stachybotrys

chartarum in structures with SBS. S. chartarum produces mycotoxins

that are thought to produce some of the symptoms reported in

sick-building syndrome (SBS). The conidia (spores) produced by

Stachybotrys species are not commonly found in the air of buildings

that have been found to contain significant interior growth of this

organism. This could be due in part to the large size of the

Stachybotrys spores, or the organism growing in hidden areas such as

wall cavities. However, individuals in buildings with significant

Stachybotrys growth frequently display symptoms that may be attributed

to exposure to the organism's mycotoxins. In addition, Stachybotrys

colonies produce a " slime " or polysaccharide (carbohydrate) matrix

that coats the hyphae and the spores. The intent of this project was

to determine whether the carbohydrate matrix and the mycotoxins

embedded in it could be removed from the spores by repeated washings

with either aqueous or organic solvents. The results demonstrated that

the process of spore washing removed compounds that were toxic in a

protein translation assay as compared to spores that were washed with

an organic solution, however a correlation between carbohydrate

removal during the washing process and the removal of mycotoxins from

the spore surface was not observed. These data demonstrated that

mycotoxins are not likely to be found exclusively in the carbohydrate

matrix of the spores. Therefore, mycotoxin removal from the spore

surface can occur without significant loss of polysaccharide. We also

showed that toxic substances may be removed from the spore surface

with an aqueous solution. These results suggest that satratoxins are

soluble in aqueous solutions without being bound to water-soluble

moieties, such as the carbohydrate slime matrix.

PMID: 15487326 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

, never mind me, I'm just a grouch lately. not doing to well.

I just want ti go to a hospital but gee, that just might kill me.

>

> Thanks Dr Thrasher,

> I will look some of the stuff over when I feel up to it.

> I am going to bow out for now. I have a way of irritating people

and I think

> I just need to stop.

>

>

> On Dec 30, 2007 4:12 PM, Jack Thrasher, Ph.D. <toxicologist1@...>

wrote:

>

> > There is also a toxiclogical profile of formaldehyde published

by ATSR.

> > It is available in pdf format

> >

> > http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp111.html

> >

> > Formaldehyde is also a neurotoxicant and an immune toxicant, in

addition

> > to what you pointed out.

> >

> > Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

No problem Jeanine, I am having more difficulty where I am staying, burning

sensation and extreme cognitive difficulty. Not to mention fatigue. All I

have been doing is sleeping. I thought things were getting better here

since the ac went off and I can open the windows but still pretty difficult.

Fortunately it's cool out and I can drive my car to a walmart parking lot

and get some relief from the house there. That and sleep inside it at night.

Don't know what the neighbors are thinking but I have to do it if I want any

relief from this house. That or the porch and their is no privacy their at

all. My car isn't exactly a sanctuary but it seems just getting out of the

house does me a world of good. Cant wait to get out of here and go out west.

I decided to give my notice here this month and leave weather I have a place

to stay or not. Wanted to find a piece of property to rent where I could put

my truck but all I can find is propertys for sale. I'm sure their must be

plenty of people willing to let me camp on their property just have to find

them. Don't have many other viable options. could rent another room for

$600 a month but that's a crap shot. Might be better but than again might

not. And difficult to find.

On Dec 30, 2007 10:32 PM, who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> , never mind me, I'm just a grouch lately. not doing to well.

> I just want ti go to a hospital but gee, that just might kill me.

>

>

> >

> > > There is also a toxiclogical profile of formaldehyde published

> by ATSR.

> > > It is available in pdf format

> > >

> > > http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp111.html

> > >

> > > Formaldehyde is also a neurotoxicant and an immune toxicant, in

> addition

> > > to what you pointed out.

> > >

> > > Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dr. Thrasher,

Thank you so much for this detailed, easy to read/understand

explanation! I'm sure it's appreciated by many! Happy '08!

Hugs, Cheryl

[Guest guest]

OOOps --yes, I did miss that one. Thanks, Dr. Thrasher .

Kim

>

> There is also a toxiclogical profile of formaldehyde published by

ATSR. It is available in pdf format

>

> http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp111.html

>

> Formaldehyde is also a neurotoxicant and an immune toxicant, in

addition to what you pointed out.

>

> Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

>