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Jeff - actually there are many doctors out there who do support lower

carb/higher protein. They are seeing the results and realizing that there is

more than " one way to skin a cat " as the saying goes. Look at the facts -

look at the results - and with a little thought you might realize that your

" mayo " analogy was pretty stupid.

Rebekah

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Jeff, I think it is a big error for an insulin user to advise a diet

controlled individual. I've been on both sides, and read a lot of mail.

the truth is you simply don't have the experience that a diet controlled

person has, watching what various foods do to their sugars. The food

pyramid simply doesn't work for diet controlled. Most have success

limiting starches, which seem to be the principal sources of high and

prolonged sugars. I trim the top and base from the pyramid, The fats and

oils cause weight gain, the starches sugar.

Sam

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I also was one of the non-believers when it came to the low carb woe as you are

Jeff. However, after 4 years of meds and the ADA diet it was not working and

the dr's answer was to always change the meds, he never considered altering the

diet. They do not have all the answers nor do the CDE's where nutrition is

concerned. I was referred to a dietition in the beginning (and I have seen her

one other time)...she gave me a high carb, high fat diet and couldn't answer my

questions about vegetarian choices I wanted to make in the beginning. I gave up

on the vegetarian part but did continue with the ADA diet.I started changing the

woe in November and my bg's have come down considerably...they are still not

quite where I want them but I am working on it. This is the first time in my

life I am not going crazy thinking about what I'm going to eat at my next snack

or meal and don't miss the carbos and the high they produced. If I ever want to

sleep my life away again, I will carbo load on the heavy starches. They are a

very satisfactory " sleeping pill " .It is always hard to split with conventional

wisdom but in this case it works and I will continue to use low carb as a

" medical " aid in the fight to keep my bg's under control along with my

glucophage (BTW, this last time when my bg's were out of control the dr added

glucotrol to the list but with the change in eating it has not been

necessary).Kandy

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a few things in response to a low carb diet. i had been on an ada diet

for a long time without success. many highs and many lows, and am now

trying some low carbs by myself. my bs are more staple when i eat low

carbs. i have followed the anderson diet, and whitakers high carb

diet. dr. whitaker is now saying lower carbs. they worked somewhat. i had

a dietitian do a low carb, and glyemic diet for me. she had my eating 120

carbs a day, and this was a veggie diet. i just wasted $250.00 going to

her. my point is the many dietitian do not know how to do something like

this.

for the person that said primitive man didn't have bread, well the bible

tells me there was manna, and also they ate a lot of raw food. doctors do

not have a lot of knowledge about nutrition so we need to be good consumers.

that all. ellen

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Jeff,

How many hours of nutritional study do you think the doctors and CDE's that

ARE advising low carb have? Why do you think the ones who don't are better

than the ones who do?

First of all I can tell you that the doctors from both groups got MAYBE 4

hours of nutrional instruction, yet they are the ones who have the final

prescribing say , don't they?

Happily, the patient has the absolute final say.

All you have to do to see what high carbs do to your bg's is test. You have

a meter, use it. (or your wife does)

BTW , we aren't advocating NO carb here. We eat plenty of veggies and get

the number of carbs our bodies need. We certainly don't need the hundreds

and hundreds of grams that most people get in the normal American diet.

Do you think this is the natural way for people to eat? Primitive people

didn't have bread, cereals, or pasta or refined sugars.

Look at the American population of today. Ever since the food pyramid way

of thinking about food was introduced, we have all only gotted fatter and

fatter.

What's wrong with this picture?

Low carb doesn't mean you have to eat high fats. You don't even have to eat

high protein if you don't want to.

Have you read Dr Bernstein's book? Just 25 or so years ago people didn't

have meters at home... why? Oh it was available but the DOCTORS said humans

weren't capable of controlling their blood sugars.

As recently as 50 years ago, diabetes Type I was considered a death

sentence. The people who did live had terrible complications. Guess what

kind of diet they ate?

ADA exchange. Their blood sugars were up and down all over the place.

It's wonderful to have doctors to help you with your health, but the bottom

line is that its up to YOU to find what works for you. If everything the

doctors said was accepted as gospel, we would still be drilling holes in our

heads to let the bad spirits out. The Medical community HAS to have

challenges in order to advance. I work in a hospital with many doctors and

believe me, we talk about these things all the time.

At my hospital, many of the doctors are following low carb themselves. Why?

Because it works. And THAT is the bottom line.

Meenie

>I'm sorry, I just can't let this one go. Maybe the real answer is that the

>docs/CDE's really do know more than you do. How many hours of nutritional

>study do you think that your Dietitian CDE gets? Just where are you

getting

>your calories if you cut out carbs? Fat and Protein? And somehow you think

>that this is smart? I hear by propose a new diet of nothing but mayo.

Nope,

>not on bread because that will be carbs but by the spoon. So dip you spoons

>in that mayo jar and have at it. Clinic trials of the entire white creamy

>food group will follow with horseradish and white gravy to be next in the

>test.

>Lets face it, you really don't know what you are talking about. Keep this

>up and you will be asking for a modem hookup at your hospital stay in order

>to send your ignorance.

>

>>

>>

>> >Sorry for this long reply, I am just amazed that the medical community

>> still

>> >does not at least present low carb as a viable option, for folks whose

>> >numbers stay high, it makes me wonder why. What is in it for them to

keep

>> >people sick?

>> >Isn't that a good question????

>> >Thanks for this opportunity to share my little story,

>> >Jill

>>

>> Its a marvelous question, Jill and one I've been asking for a long time.

>> Many docs aren't really interested until you turn up with some

>complication

>> for them to try and treat like neuropathy or kidney problems, or

>> retinopathy. Who needs that?

>> Or maybe its their training. Doctors get about 4 hours of nutritional

>> training in their medical schooling... and all of that is about how

>healthy

>> the lovely food pyramid is.

>> But there are more docs doing low carb now so the times they are

>a-changin'

>> :)

>> Meenie

>

>>

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Ellen

As a registered dietitian myself, I apologize for the lack of help you

got from your dietitian. We are a conservative lot, I must tell you.

Since being back at work, I have asked my fellow dietitians about low

carbing. Even the CDE RD had no idea what I was talking about but all

were interested in what you guys have been posting. We do want our

patients to succeed in staying healthy. Some of us think the ADA

(American DIETETIC Association) are a bunch of old fuddy duddies (can

anyone guess where I stand on this?) and the more info you provide, the

better for us.... and for the future patients we work with.

Thank you...

Gail

From: ETyree5738@...

a few things in response to a low carb diet. i had been on an ada diet

for a long time without success. many highs and many lows, and am now

trying some low carbs by myself. my bs are more staple when i eat low

carbs. i have followed the anderson diet, and whitakers high carb

diet. dr. whitaker is now saying lower carbs. they worked somewhat. i had

a dietitian do a low carb, and glyemic diet for me. she had my eating 120

carbs a day, and this was a veggie diet. i just wasted $250.00 going to

her. my point is the many dietitian do not know how to do something like

this.

for the person that said primitive man didn't have bread, well the bible

tells me there was manna, and also they ate a lot of raw food. doctors do

not have a lot of knowledge about nutrition so we need to be good consumers.

that all. ellen

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Gail...some CDEs are up on it! When I went in last (with a chip on my

shoulder, daring them to knock it off and a copy of Bernstein's Diabetes in

my hand) they said he was a little extreme and suggested SugarBusters!. I

bought a copy and tried it, but still too much carb for me. told me to

*work out my own salvation* so to speak. And I have. Bernstein is more

realistic for *me* but with insulin resistance, I still have not been able

to take off the weight. Am gradually adding exercise back because I am still

under the care of the Retinologist. Maybe the macular edema and bleeding

will soon be completely under control and I can really get with it! *hugs*

Toni

Re: new mayo diet

> Ellen

>

> As a registered dietitian myself, I apologize for the lack of help you

> got from your dietitian. We are a conservative lot, I must tell you.

>

> Since being back at work, I have asked my fellow dietitians about low

> carbing. Even the CDE RD had no idea what I was talking about but all

> were interested in what you guys have been posting. We do want our

> patients to succeed in staying healthy. Some of us think the ADA

> (American DIETETIC Association) are a bunch of old fuddy duddies (can

> anyone guess where I stand on this?) and the more info you provide, the

> better for us.... and for the future patients we work with.

>

> Thank you...

> Gail

>

>

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Jeff,

Since it is my MD who recommended a lower carb diet I can't say that your

point of view is valid. As to how much nutrition is taken by by the

MD/Dietician CDE. It is very little for either unless the dietician is a

licensed dietician. Btw one of my good friends has for years recommended

that I follow a lower carb diet but I was resistant as my doc at the time

did not recommend it. SHE IS A LICENSED DIETICIAN. In fact she heads a

large group of dieticians in our county.

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I'm new to diabetes and to learn more I've joined many (any I could find)

list like this. What I've gleened from this is diabetes is a different

diease for each person. You need to learn your body and what you can eat.I'm

looking at the low carb diet but I can't handle the high fat of some on the

plans. So I plan to eat and test and eat and test until I can figure out

what is right for me. Your doctor and your dietitian can tell you what they

believe the norm is but your body will tell you what is norm for you

Well that's my 2cents worth.

Lil

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Ah, a breath of fresh air. Way to go!

Jeff recently wrote:

>

>I'm sorry, I just can't let this one go. Maybe the real answer is that the

>docs/CDE's really do know more than you do...

Impossible!?

I love it,

Kossart

Peru, IL USA

NMRA, LDSIG, OPSIG, BRHS, TP & W-HS

LaSalle & Bureau County Model R.R. Club

Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Model RR,

Illinwek River Branch (H.O.-1969)

" Serving Agriculture & Industry In The Illiniwek River Valley "

--------------------------------------------------------------

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Sam recently wrote us:

>, about the knowledge of experts. I was in an electrical >engineering

>class, the department head was teaching us a truth. I said >that is no

>longer true prof, andd I gave an example the class recognized >and began

>agreeing with me. The prof acknowledged to us that he was >teaching from

>notes he took at MIT as a student.

>We say a standard course is one where information passes from >the notes

>of the prof to the notes of the student without passing >through the

>brain of either.

>Some of these truths take on a life of their own, like don't

>eat sugar,

>you'll be OK. I used the source of information that wasn't >lying, my

>meter. I try to empower people to use their meter to >determine the

>amount and type of foods they want by testing an hour after >eating.

>I started at 150% of normal as a peak, and kept lowering it.

>Beware the expert with ONLY book knowledge. Sam

Sam,

So basically, the medical community knows nothing, and we know everthing?

We are not dealing with one _expert_ opinion here so even though you've

made a point, I don't consider it valid to what I am saying. I am sure

that if your lo-carb really works then you had better clue in the ADA

'cause apparently in yours and some of the other list members minds, they

don't have a clue. Well I am sure they have looked at this and for

whatever reason have not changed their way of thinking to the point of

modifying their diet and recommendations. This all strikes me as somewhat

analagous to the mindset of militia types who subscribe to a belief that

the ENTIRE government is corrupt, etc., etc. - we can take over and do it

better - hence my sarcistic query in a previous post as to the possibility

of symbolic " black helicopters " appearing on this list.

Before you, as others have done on this list, retreat to your fallback

statement of: " I am only saying that lo-carb works for me " , let me say that

I agree with that statement 100 per cent. If a magic wand waved over my

head lowered my BG's consistantly I would mention it here, but not ad

nauseum to where some would think that there really is no other way.

However, I want to re-stress to others on this list, especially " newbies " ,

that lo-carbing is only ONE way of dealing with our problem; find what

works for YOU - Probably adding doing so under a doctor's care would be

prudent - but when you share it with the list, don't beat us over the head

with it. Mention it and move on, if somone is interested they can then

make inquiries for more specifics. This should apply to ANY list members

control preference. Don't SAY your're already doing it, 'cause I don't see

it happening, Please, give the rest of us a break and REALLY DO IT. If

not, then the tediousness of this constant rehasing is driving me to

seriously consider unsubscribing from this list.

(Let's see if anyone will try and talk me out of it!)

(just striving for some balance on the list) Kossart

Peru, IL USA

NMRA, LDSIG, OPSIG, BRHS, TP & W-HS

LaSalle & Bureau County Model R.R. Club

Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Model RR,

Illinwek River Branch (H.O.-1969)

" Serving Agriculture & Industry In The Illiniwek River Valley "

--------------------------------------------------------------

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No, it is not a good diet for diabetics. Folks with higher sugars are

already risking damage to the kidneys, why add too it? Pretty simple logic

if you ask me. So in return I would say that you should look at the facts

and studies that have already been done on diabetic diets, the results are

in my favor. These are FACTS, not word of mouth medical advice or someone

looking for yet another silver bullet. Backed with years of continued

research all with the same results.

Don't get me wrong. My wife's department does teach carb counting and IMO,

that is the best way to measure insulin needs but to replace carbs with fat

and protein is going the wrong way.

Side note:

I love the way you spell your name, you don't see that very often. That is

how we spell our daughters name.

>

> Jeff - actually there are many doctors out there who do support lower

> carb/higher protein. They are seeing the results and realizing that there

is

> more than " one way to skin a cat " as the saying goes. Look at the facts -

> look at the results - and with a little thought you might realize that

your

> " mayo " analogy was pretty stupid.

> Rebekah

>

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Jeff - Actually I am following my doctors advice - he is wonderful doctor,

many believe him to be the best in our town, and he has practiced for many

many years and worked with many many diabetics. I was practically house bound

from Hepatitis C and other medical problems which had escalated for years and

I finally went to him and learned I was diabetic too and followed his advice,

although he did tell me about the ADA and how some people that works for and

others need a different route - in the last year I have started working again

- been on numerous vacations - driven my self to vacation places hours away -

something that I had not been able to do for years - just finished (well I

keep saying " finished " but...) Christmas shopping like crazy - up and down

the malls - something I have not done in years and years and generally had a

basic miracle of a last year so...bad for me? I don't think so - what I was

doing before was bad and when I tried the ADA it didn't get the BG down to a

reasonable rate and I did not want to take more medicine since my liver is

already wacko - people who know me can hardly believe it when they hear and

see all that I am now doing... at 38 I have been...reborn. :) Rebekah

P.S. In

a message dated 12/18/99 5:12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,

webmaster@... writes:

<<

Side note:

I love the way you spell your name, you don't see that very often. That is

how we spell our daughters name.

>>

My mom picked this spelling out of the Bible - and you are right - you hardly

do ever see it any more. But I have seen a couple of little girls lately with

that spelling, how old is your daughter?

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>

>

> Jeff,

> Since it is my MD who recommended a lower carb diet I can't say that your

> point of view is valid. As to how much nutrition is taken by by the

> MD/Dietician CDE. It is very little for either unless the dietician is a

> licensed dietician.

A Dietician CDE requires a lot of study in order to achieve that status.

Is your MD an endo or a GP?

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Sam, I am not advising anyone on a diet; insulin user or not but stating

that this no carb diet can be very dangerous.

Ok, so you have read email but it doesn't appear that you have the

educational background or certifications to make statements like,

> The food pyramid simply doesn't work for diet controlled.

while my information is coming from a team of CDE's with years of experience

in dealing with situations like this on a daily basis.

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Jeff...If I may jump in here with about 2 cents worth? My endo is a

respected researchist and is called a diabetologist. She has a CDE on duty

at all times in her office. Both of them told me, when I went in armed with

Bernstein and ready for a fight, that there is a trend away from the Pyramid

as we now know it among doctors who are bothering to do research. They did

say, however that Bernstein is too strict, and recommended SugarBusters!

....However, there were too many carbs for me. They advised me to use my

meter, slide my insulin intake according to food intake, and make

adjustments in both according to what kept me in the best control. My A1C is

6.2...down from 13.9 while under the care of Dr. Quack and using max dosage

of triple oral meds. (I know you don't know this, but so many do that I feel

I am boring everyone!)

I think your misunderstanding is that the WOE is NOT NO carb, but low carb.

There is a difference. No carb causes Ketosis (not to be confused with

Keto-acidosis).

I am insulin resistant and I can't handle those carbs because they cause my

insulin needs to rise, thus, more weight gain. With little or no bread,

potatoes, rice, or pasta and only limes, lemons, and berries for fruit, I do

great.

I experimented with adding more carbs lately and even having an occasional

slice of rye bread. My bgs soared into the 200s! I'm backing off again.

Honestly, Jeff, anyone who knows me (and Sam, for that matter) will tell you

that both of fought for the ADA Pyramid for the longest time. We were hard

to convince. Try it! It can't hurt unless, like you commented...you

already have kidney disease. Susie convinced me and Tarcisio (in Brazil)

made a believer out of Sam. Also, seeing is believing!

Sorry! Much more than 2 cents! I tend to get wordy!

*hugs* Toni

Re: new mayo diet

>

>

> Sam, I am not advising anyone on a diet; insulin user or not but stating

> that this no carb diet can be very dangerous.

> Ok, so you have read email but it doesn't appear that you have the

> educational background or certifications to make statements like,

>

> > The food pyramid simply doesn't work for diet controlled.

>

> while my information is coming from a team of CDE's with years of

experience

> in dealing with situations like this on a daily basis.

>

> >

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Ok, let me jump in here with an observation and a question.

First, my diabetes is complicated by my long term prednisone use. I was

taught the ADA substitution, and it has worked reasonably well for me. By

eating less, more often, I was able to stop the binging that I was doing

before. By forcing myself to eliminate something else if I were to have a

cookie, I took an active part in controlling my diet, without feeling

deprived. Other attempts at dieting failed miserably because they were too

rigid, and made me feel deprived. I could not adopt them as a lifestyle

change. Despite taking insulin and prednisone, I've been able to loose 20

pounds in about 4 months. My docs are thrilled, because most are not able to

lose weight while on prednisone. Oh...and my bg's are consistently between

80 and 110 before meals and snacks (every 3 hrs).

I've not looked at either Bernstein or SugarBusters because they sound too

restrictive. I love fruits, but cringe at many veggies, though I do like

salads. When I eat red meat, I feel really sluggish. Does it make sense for

me to try to incorporate some of the low carb thinking into my diet? What

would I gain? Would I be more likely to fall off the diet??

Don

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Hi Don,

It sounds like you're doing wonderfully :) particularly since you're on the

prednisone!!

The only other thing I would do if I were you, would be to check my bg

occassionally 1 1/2 - 2 hours after eating to see what kind of spikes I was

getting from what I was eating. Since you are within " normal " bg range

within 3 hours, I'd say - don't change a thing!!

Meenie

<snip>

> my bg's are consistently between

>80 and 110 before meals and snacks (every 3 hrs).

<snip>

>Does it make sense for

>me to try to incorporate some of the low carb thinking into my diet? What

>would I gain? Would I be more likely to fall off the diet??

>

>Don

>

>>

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>No, it is not a good diet for diabetics. Folks with higher sugars are

>already risking damage to the kidneys, why add too it? Pretty simple logic

>if you ask me.

Really? It seems more like simple logic to me that since it LOWERS the bg's

you reduce that risk.

>So in return I would say that you should look at the facts

I find it interesting that you don't see the lowered blood glucose and the

resultant lessening of distress on kidneys (and heart, and eyes, and

circulatory system) as a fact and something to be considered.

>and studies that have already been done on diabetic diets, the results are

>in my favor.

Where are the studies on low carb diets? The medical community has

disregarded it to the extent that studies are only just beginning. The RD's

talk about low carb and almost everything they tell you is wrong, so how

much validity can we attribute to anything they say? They say on a low carb

diet you only lose water weight. How in the heck can you say someone who

has lost over 100 lbs has lost only water? That is outrageous and

ridiculous.

They say on a low carb diet your cholesterol will rise significantly because

of the high fat content of the meat, but the fact is that people on low carb

see their cholesterol lower dramatically - don't believe it? Go over to the

Atkins_Support_List@onelist and ask them. Several of them have been on low

carb over 2 years, and have lose significant amounts of weight and have

their md's lab tests to prove the dramatic changes in their

cholesterol/trigliceride counts.

They say that 80% of people on a low carb diet regain the weight.

guess what - they don't mention that 80% of people on low fat diets regain

the weight.

Anyone who uses a diet and then expects to return to their old way of eating

is going to regain the weight. That isn't the fault of the diet.

They put you on an ADA exchange diet and then if your bg's go up, they put

you on a pill. When they continue to go up, they add another pill. Then

another, Then insulin. Then they treat you for the complications that

arise. Don't tell me this doesn't happen , I work in a hospital and I see

it day in and day out . I also see the RD's look at a patient's chart and

say " the bg is 168? Well, thats ok, since they're diabetic " .

That is NOT ok.

These are FACTS, not word of mouth medical advice or someone

>looking for yet another silver bullet.

If I were looking for a silver bullet, I would have accepted what the

" experts " told me and gone along with their higher bg's/ more medicine

routine - but I saw their other patients coming into the hospital da;y after

day and decided I wanted something better. I happen to know there is NO

silver bullet - no pill will counteract the effects if I don't have the

sense to see what is happening to myself and take action.

Backed with years of continued

>research all with the same results.

Then why are the people who are listening to them continually in the

hospital with ever worsening complications?

Meenie

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Can I make a suggestion?

Can we agree to disagree on low carb versus ADA?

As has been pointed out here before, do what works for you and what can

keep your bg's within a specific range.

Meenie you are right; I have only seen one person whose lipids increased

after following a low carb (but high protein) diet. Most have seen a

rather dramatic decrease in lipids (especially triglycerides) with the

weight loss.

And whatever diet works to lower blood glucoses will slow down the

progression of nephropathy, neuropathy, retinopathy, heart disease,

etc. facing so many diabetics. Since this is a LIFELONG struggle (which

I don't have to tell you guys about since you face it everyday), a diet

you can live with and which meets your individual needs, lifestyle,

goals, etc. is one that will not only help you get the weight off but

keep it off as the years go by.

Gail (the RD)

>No, it is not a good diet for diabetics. Folks with higher sugars are

>already risking damage to the kidneys, why add too it? Pretty simple logic

>if you ask me.

Really? It seems more like simple logic to me that since it LOWERS the bg's

you reduce that risk.

>So in return I would say that you should look at the facts

I find it interesting that you don't see the lowered blood glucose and the

resultant lessening of distress on kidneys (and heart, and eyes, and

circulatory system) as a fact and something to be considered.

>and studies that have already been done on diabetic diets, the results are

>in my favor.

Where are the studies on low carb diets? The medical community has

disregarded it to the extent that studies are only just beginning. The RD's

talk about low carb and almost everything they tell you is wrong, so how

much validity can we attribute to anything they say? They say on a low carb

diet you only lose water weight. How in the heck can you say someone who

has lost over 100 lbs has lost only water? That is outrageous and

ridiculous.

They say on a low carb diet your cholesterol will rise significantly because

of the high fat content of the meat, but the fact is that people on low carb

see their cholesterol lower dramatically - don't believe it? Go over to the

Atkins_Support_List@onelist and ask them. Several of them have been on low

carb over 2 years, and have lose significant amounts of weight and have

their md's lab tests to prove the dramatic changes in their

cholesterol/trigliceride counts.

They say that 80% of people on a low carb diet regain the weight.

guess what - they don't mention that 80% of people on low fat diets regain

the weight.

Anyone who uses a diet and then expects to return to their old way of eating

is going to regain the weight. That isn't the fault of the diet.

They put you on an ADA exchange diet and then if your bg's go up, they put

you on a pill. When they continue to go up, they add another pill. Then

another, Then insulin. Then they treat you for the complications that

arise. Don't tell me this doesn't happen , I work in a hospital and I see

it day in and day out . I also see the RD's look at a patient's chart and

say " the bg is 168? Well, thats ok, since they're diabetic " .

That is NOT ok.

These are FACTS, not word of mouth medical advice or someone

>looking for yet another silver bullet.

If I were looking for a silver bullet, I would have accepted what the

" experts " told me and gone along with their higher bg's/ more medicine

routine - but I saw their other patients coming into the hospital da;y after

day and decided I wanted something better. I happen to know there is NO

silver bullet - no pill will counteract the effects if I don't have the

sense to see what is happening to myself and take action.

Backed with years of continued

>research all with the same results.

Then why are the people who are listening to them continually in the

hospital with ever worsening complications?

Meenie

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