Guest guest Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 , thanks again, yes I understand the TE/MCS. what I should have asked is if DR. Shoemaker diagnoses the TE? and does SPECT SCAN? and dies DR. Ziem do the testing for mycotoxins and/or diagnoses the same. I just can't afford to go to both. --- In , " crainedavid " <dcmold@...> wrote: > > No - Dr. Shoemaker does not test for MCS. He does believe however > that low VIP measured by one of his tests may be a driver in MCS. > > Dr. Ziem was extremely concerned about trying to treat using > VIP " Hormone Supplementation " to address my symptoms - especially > with all of the things she found not right in her testing. Also, in > my most recent Shoemaker testing my " VIP " levels had increased from > the original " Not Measurable Levels " nearly to the lower part of > Shoemaker's test range - yet my " MCS " is still extreme. According to > Dr. Ziem, my test results show that I am of the worst 5% of patients > she has seen. > > As for the term MCS - I have only used that term in this post because > it is easy to spell and well understood. Dr. Ziem may speak to MCS > on her web site but does not use MCS as a diagnosis. In my case it > is " Toxic Encephalopathy " (Brain Injury), " Neural Sensitization " > (Vicious Biochemical Cycles brought on by exposures), " Chronic > Inflamation " (Brain, Kidneys, Liver...), " Severe Nutrient > Deficiency " .... > > Hope this helps.. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 , I wasn't aware about the nutrient depletion part. Wonder if that's why I've lost so much wt. & lost my hair? Interesting, I'll have to look into this, thnx for sharing! Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Yes Dr. Shoemaker does diagnose Toxic Encephalopathy and most of Shoemaker's work was covered by insurance and he does not require up front payment. Dr. Ziem also diagnosed TE through her testing but required up front payment. Dr. Ziem partners with Dr. Gray in Arizona on those with Stachy Toxin Exposure - in my case I am too nutrient deficient to continue the Shoemaker Protocol. > > > > No - Dr. Shoemaker does not test for MCS. He does believe however > > that low VIP measured by one of his tests may be a driver in MCS. > > > > Dr. Ziem was extremely concerned about trying to treat using > > VIP " Hormone Supplementation " to address my symptoms - especially > > with all of the things she found not right in her testing. Also, in > > my most recent Shoemaker testing my " VIP " levels had increased from > > the original " Not Measurable Levels " nearly to the lower part of > > Shoemaker's test range - yet my " MCS " is still extreme. According > to > > Dr. Ziem, my test results show that I am of the worst 5% of > patients > > she has seen. > > > > As for the term MCS - I have only used that term in this post > because > > it is easy to spell and well understood. Dr. Ziem may speak to MCS > > on her web site but does not use MCS as a diagnosis. In my case it > > is " Toxic Encephalopathy " (Brain Injury), " Neural Sensitization " > > (Vicious Biochemical Cycles brought on by exposures), " Chronic > > Inflamation " (Brain, Kidneys, Liver...), " Severe Nutrient > > Deficiency " .... > > > > Hope this helps.. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thank you , I may have the same problem but I guess I well have to take it one step at a time. > > > > > > No - Dr. Shoemaker does not test for MCS. He does believe however > > > that low VIP measured by one of his tests may be a driver in MCS. > > > > > > Dr. Ziem was extremely concerned about trying to treat using > > > VIP " Hormone Supplementation " to address my symptoms - especially > > > with all of the things she found not right in her testing. Also, > in > > > my most recent Shoemaker testing my " VIP " levels had increased > from > > > the original " Not Measurable Levels " nearly to the lower part of > > > Shoemaker's test range - yet my " MCS " is still extreme. According > > to > > > Dr. Ziem, my test results show that I am of the worst 5% of > > patients > > > she has seen. > > > > > > As for the term MCS - I have only used that term in this post > > because > > > it is easy to spell and well understood. Dr. Ziem may speak to > MCS > > > on her web site but does not use MCS as a diagnosis. In my case > it > > > is " Toxic Encephalopathy " (Brain Injury), " Neural Sensitization " > > > (Vicious Biochemical Cycles brought on by exposures), " Chronic > > > Inflamation " (Brain, Kidneys, Liver...), " Severe Nutrient > > > Deficiency " .... > > > > > > Hope this helps.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 US Vet - in looking at the http://www.chemicalinjury.net/html/neural_sensitization__treating.html, i'm not so sure that the protocol will work for the long term. as someone who has spent a fortune on a myriad of supplements (including $20/day Chinese Medicine Herbal Extracts.....and later 1 oz bottles of a liquid supplement at $125 each) and trying all kinds of modalities over the years, i'm not too sure taking vitamin C, vit E, B12, glutathione, etc etc (as outlined in the above URL) will detox the body of accumulated toxins. however.....i can vouch for some of the treatments, such as taking one 1000mg of Ester-C (a high-potency Vitamin C) along with taking 2-3 Ultra Zinc lozenges every 2-3 hours (not to exceed 5 per day) whenever i have a nasty cold/flu symptoms because it expedites my recovery. also, i have taken Ester-C after major dental work and it does help heal the affected area faster. (in fact, a couple of years ago, the Ester-C was the only thing that made the bleeding stop). i was seriously considering getting glutathione IVs done a couple of years ago. that said, i think putting good stuff (like the Ziem protocol) in the body will help make you feel better but it will be temporary. here's my reasoning: after exposure from any biotoxins, it overwhelms the body/immune system and until deep detoxification occurs, the toxins will remain in the body. oh sure trace amounts can be eliminated here & there, but toxins are potent once they have a foothold, and that's why recovery is difficult. adding good supplements (to a toxic body) will *elevate* the body to make you feel better, but because nothing has been truly done to remove the toxins, you'll go back to feeling blah in no time. , i think you're a new member. PLEASE forgive my skepticism. i have tried a lot of different things in my quest to recover from mold exposure. i appreciate you sharing the Ziem protocol with us and i sincerely hope it helps you recover!!! please give us periodic updates as to how you're doing. > > > > Like many people with Mold Injury and those that frequent this site, > > I have been to many, many doctors over the years - including Dr. Weil > > in Tucson, Dr. Rae in Dallas and most recently Dr. Shoemaker in > > land. While Dr. Shoemaker helped identify mold cause and effect > > his approach struggles to address MCS that does not improve by just > > addressing the mold. > > > > I am currently going to a leading expert in MCS, Chemical Injury in > > land who has developed a protocol for addressing MCS - that is > > now used by 100's of doctors. > > > > Dr. Grace Ziem and her phone number is (301) 241-4346. Her office > > may be able to point you to a doctor near where you are. > > > > You can also get information on her web site at www.chemicalinjury. net > > > > There are several doctors now using the " Ziem Protocol " in > > combination with the " Shoemaker Protocol " in order to address the > > Biochemical impact to the body while addressing toxin removal. > > > > In most cases the Shoemaker Protocol addresses the mold toxins, > > allowing your body functions to improve, then enabling your body to > > begin processing nutrients from foods more effectively and then the > > healing takes place. It is possible in a handful of cases that the > > Shoemaker Protocol could lead to increased nutrient depletion (in the > > very severe cases) thus increasing the levels of MCS. > > > > Hope this helps.. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 , Sorry if there may have been some confusion from addressing all of these different posts. I am not at all stating that supplements will enable detox of mycotoxins. My statements were made in response questions surrounding MCS and that the CSM protocol or other potential detox approaches (Without the proper supplementation)could in fact increase the MCS sysmptoms if your body becomes more nutrient deficient. If you were to investigate Dr. Ziem's site more closely you will find that Mold Toxins are not that dissimilar from other Toxins and VOC's that lead to Chemical Injury (MCS). That may be why there are a number of mold Toxic people that end up with MCS. Also, out of control Biochemical responses within the body are caused by these exposures which become more severe as your ani-oxident levels are depleted. As for my experience with Toxic Mold Exposure - I have returned from the " Dark Side " (Severe Mold Toxin Exposure - disability)3 times over the past 10 years, have spent many Hundred Thousand $'s navigating this issue. I am not trying to communicate that one should just take supplements and all will be ok. I am communicating that care must be taken when reaching out to specialist for help - by sharing my experiences. > > > > I would like to echo your thoughts and say I have had the same > experience described here. I have found this to be a very frustrating > experience and expensive to say the least. In fact I have gotten to a > point of complete confusion, and just when I thought I was getting > somewhere???? > > > > > > [] Re: Doctor In SC > > > > hi , > > > > i'm curious----is the following webpage the protocol u're referring to? > > http://www.chemical injury.net/ html/neural_ sensitization_ > _treating. html > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " crainedavid " <dcmold@> wrote: > > > > > > Like many people with Mold Injury and those that frequent this site, > > > I have been to many, many doctors over the years - including Dr. Weil > > > in Tucson, Dr. Rae in Dallas and most recently Dr. Shoemaker in > > > land. While Dr. Shoemaker helped identify mold cause and effect > > > his approach struggles to address MCS that does not improve by just > > > addressing the mold. > > > > > > I am currently going to a leading expert in MCS, Chemical Injury in > > > land who has developed a protocol for addressing MCS - that is > > > now used by 100's of doctors. > > > > > > Dr. Grace Ziem and her phone number is (301) 241-4346. Her office > > > may be able to point you to a doctor near where you are. > > > > > > You can also get information on her web site at > www.chemicalinjury. net > > > > > > There are several doctors now using the " Ziem Protocol " in > > > combination with the " Shoemaker Protocol " in order to address the > > > Biochemical impact to the body while addressing toxin removal. > > > > > > In most cases the Shoemaker Protocol addresses the mold toxins, > > > allowing your body functions to improve, then enabling your body to > > > begin processing nutrients from foods more effectively and then the > > > healing takes place. It is possible in a handful of cases that the > > > Shoemaker Protocol could lead to increased nutrient depletion (in the > > > very severe cases) thus increasing the levels of MCS. > > > > > > Hope this helps.. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I am not sure about the doctor in SC but I can tell you that the science behind it is pretty sound. I can also tell you that I have had the B12 shots and also made some significant changes in my diet. Yes, I believe the answer will be more in nutrition than in a pill. Interestingly enough, I started looking into Pall's research after I started on a regimine of my own which I learned from my grandmother. Although the symptoms of MCS were diagnosed just recently I have had chronic fatigue syndrome for 23 years and PTSD for 15 years. Current research supports that these may actually be the same disease but with different presentations. What my grandmother taught me was about nutrition even though she did not know the science behind it such as what a phytonutrient was etc. What she did know is the symptoms of the above has ran in my family for several generations and she had the cultural and intellectual resources to find out how to treat it through practice (growing organic vegetables and fruits) to provide the chemicals in foods that form the building blocks of the detoxification system. Unfortunately, with the amount of contaminants we are putting into the environment and being exposed to on a daily basis the detoxification systems can not keep up with the total body burden. The only bright spot is that the science of nutrition genomics may provide enough clues so that we can improve how well our bodies can detoxify what it is exposed to every day. http://www.mcscanadian.org/protocols.html I would encourage you to read Dr. Pall's book (about 19.00$) about the nitric oxide pathway etc. and associated amino acids for more information before you invest in a large expense. Personally, I bought a few of the supplements that Pall suggested in his book and am eating organic and making sure I get at least 2.5 servings of fruits and vegetables with each meal which new research shows that it takes to neutralize the free radicals that is produced from digesting a meal. The only problem I have now is the loss of memory (like a traumatic brain injury) which is due more from the direct chemical exposure than the MCS I believe. Generally, the oxidative stress is what leads to the development of disease anyway. Please feel free to email me if you have questions Kim Health Education Information and Resource Services (HEIRS) kkramer@... > > > > I would like to echo your thoughts and say I have had the same > experience described here. I have found this to be a very frustrating > experience and expensive to say the least. In fact I have gotten to a > point of complete confusion, and just when I thought I was getting > somewhere???? > > > > > > [] Re: Doctor In SC > > > > hi , > > > > i'm curious----is the following webpage the protocol u're referring to? > > http://www.chemical injury.net/ html/neural_ sensitization_ > _treating. html > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " crainedavid " <dcmold@> wrote: > > > > > > Like many people with Mold Injury and those that frequent this site, > > > I have been to many, many doctors over the years - including Dr. Weil > > > in Tucson, Dr. Rae in Dallas and most recently Dr. Shoemaker in > > > land. While Dr. Shoemaker helped identify mold cause and effect > > > his approach struggles to address MCS that does not improve by just > > > addressing the mold. > > > > > > I am currently going to a leading expert in MCS, Chemical Injury in > > > land who has developed a protocol for addressing MCS - that is > > > now used by 100's of doctors. > > > > > > Dr. Grace Ziem and her phone number is (301) 241-4346. Her office > > > may be able to point you to a doctor near where you are. > > > > > > You can also get information on her web site at > www.chemicalinjury. net > > > > > > There are several doctors now using the " Ziem Protocol " in > > > combination with the " Shoemaker Protocol " in order to address the > > > Biochemical impact to the body while addressing toxin removal. > > > > > > In most cases the Shoemaker Protocol addresses the mold toxins, > > > allowing your body functions to improve, then enabling your body to > > > begin processing nutrients from foods more effectively and then the > > > healing takes place. It is possible in a handful of cases that the > > > Shoemaker Protocol could lead to increased nutrient depletion (in the > > > very severe cases) thus increasing the levels of MCS. > > > > > > Hope this helps.. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 You can file an appeal with your health plan saying that none of the doctors know enough to treat you. Demand that they pay for your treatment at someone who does. They are doing this with more and more diseases and its all like a big game to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi – Please keep in mind that I derive my theories from my own personal experiences and I totally understand what you're saying about how the body becomes depleted of nutrients from biotoxin exposure, but I don't really see the answer as putting back in the good nutrients if there is still a heavy load of toxins in the body. I realize this from taking A LOT of good supplements daily for several years--of which some were probably hit & miss early on---and yeah I felt better and was able to function (sporadically anyways), but it was short-lived. This is what I believe-—detox the body from the toxins, then you may or may not need the supplements. Nowadays, I only take a multi-vitamin, a digestive enzyme & biotin (compared to 2004-2006 when I was on a *schedule* of taking supplements). I have 2 symptoms left—-hoping that my bald patches on my scalp grow back and that my fingernails will go back to looking normal again. So far, my fingernails have improved significantly in the past 3 months. I still do maintenance with Ozone Therapy (steam sauna + medical-grade ozone generator hooked up to an oxygen tank) once a week for 30 minutes. The stuff that came out of my skin and head cavity during the past few years (especially in late 2006-June 2007) when I added the steam sauna are a testament to the toxins that I have released from my body. I have my *mind* back, I get restful sleep, I run errands, I cook/bake, I do chores..and I am currently looking for employment so I can fund some of the projects I have planned. My life now is night & day compared to my life from 2001 thru mid-2007. I'll say now that detoxing wasn't easy--there were a couple or so months when the rashes/oozing that came out through my skin were painful, and the rashes were unsightly that I only went out every 10-14 days to do errands. But the good news is I have my life back now. Statistically, I probably shouldn't have recovered as well as I have, especially considering that I have the dreaded genotype identified by Dr Shoemaker and that back in mid-2003, I really felt I would be dead within 2 weeks. I wish you well with the Ziem protocol. Everyone here is looking for answers and if you can periodically share how you're faring, that gives everyone hope. :-) > > > > US Vet - in looking at the > > > http://www.chemicalinjury.net/html/neural_sensitization__treating.html > , > > i'm not so sure that the protocol will work for the long term. as > > someone who has spent a fortune on a myriad of supplements > (including > > $20/day Chinese Medicine Herbal Extracts.....and later 1 oz bottles > of > > a liquid supplement at $125 each) and trying all kinds of modalities > > over the years, i'm not too sure taking vitamin C, vit E, B12, > > glutathione, etc etc (as outlined in the above URL) will detox > > the body of accumulated toxins. however.....i can vouch for some of > > the treatments, such as taking one 1000mg of Ester-C (a high-potency > > Vitamin C) along with taking 2-3 Ultra Zinc lozenges every 2-3 hours > > (not to exceed 5 per day) whenever i have a nasty cold/flu symptoms > > because it expedites my recovery. also, i have taken Ester-C after > > major dental work and it does help heal the affected area faster. > (in > > fact, a couple of years ago, the Ester-C was the only thing that > made > > the bleeding stop). i was seriously considering getting glutathione > > IVs done a couple of years ago. that said, i think putting good > stuff > > (like the Ziem protocol) in the body will help make you feel better > > but it will be temporary. here's my reasoning: after exposure from > > any biotoxins, it overwhelms the body/immune system and until deep > > detoxification occurs, the toxins will remain in the body. oh sure > > trace amounts can be eliminated here & there, but toxins are potent > > once they have a foothold, and that's why recovery is difficult. > > adding good supplements (to a toxic body) will *elevate* the body to > > make you feel better, but because nothing has been truly done to > > remove the toxins, you'll go back to feeling blah in no time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 --- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote: > > You can file an appeal with your health plan saying that none of the > doctors know enough to treat you. Demand that they pay for your > treatment at someone who does. > > They are doing this with more and more diseases and its all like a big > game to them. I wonder who/what kind of specialist they would send us to? Hugs,Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Thanks for that input Cheryl. I was trying to get them to pay for my ALCAT tests. I think it's ALCAT; if not correct me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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