Re: Re: AS/NS rules for survival in a relationship

[Guest guest]

> You may also find the following book very helpful: " The Partner's Guide to

Asperger Syndrome " is co-authored by Marci Wheeler, a long time ASPIRES member,

and was published late last year. I think you will find that many of the

personal accounts resonate. The Amazon link is here:

>

> The Partner's Guide to Asperger Syndrome

> Moreno, Marci Wheeler, Kealah Parkinson

> http://www.amazon.com/The-Partners-Guide-Asperger-Syndrome/dp/1849058784

Helen, do you know whether this author gives equal time and attention to

couples where the AS partner is female?

Most authors seem to focus on relationships where the AS partner is

male. If they mention female Aspies at all, it's usually only in

passing.

Best,

~CJ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let your wise mind be governing your words, not your emotions.

[Guest guest]

>>> ... I think (just my opinion tho .. I'd love to hear from NS males on this

>>> one) that if problems arise in an AS female/NT male partnership, that the

>>> female AS spouse has far more problems than just the AS.

-----------------------

Hello Helen!

I'm a new (male) NS-member living in the UK! My thoughts may be of interest.

I joined the group some time ago but haven't had time to participate. I have a

little more time now so have been reading the recent postings to try and get an

understanding of the main group interests. I haven't seen anything that

resembles the major difficulty involved in my NS-AS marriage. Here's some

background:

I've been married for 15 years and my wife and I have always had significant

communication problems.

My wife has had major problems throughout her life. She's dyslexic and, it

appears, was regularly labelled " stupid " during her schooldays and by people she

met in later life - and she grew up thinking this was true. It's become clear to

me over the years that *our* communication problems seem to stem from this

dyslexia, indeed, as time has gone on I've realised that there's MUCH MORE to

dyslexia than *just* problems with the written word. For example, my wife

[sometimes] has problems understanding *exactly* what I might be saying [the

words that come out of my mouth] and, conversely, the words that come out of her

mouth [sometimes] don't represent *exactly* what she's trying to say. Most of

the time, these 'confusions' don't become clear to me until we are two or three

sentences into the conversation and by then it's usually impossible to

back-track and clear up the confusion and move on to a coherent discussion.

There are many, many other aspects of my wife's behaviour that have caused much

anguish [to both of us] over the years but the situation has been transformed

over the last six months by the realisation [of both of us] that my wife is " on

the spectrum " , probably with some variation of Asperger's, certainly many of the

indicators found in the standard Aspergers checklists apply to her. This

knowledge and understanding of the reality underlying our difficulties has been

a great help and our communication problems are now much improved as a result.

Some of the articles I've discovered recently have been real eye-openers. In

particular, the " Impacts-and-Deficits-in-NT-ASD-Relationships " has been very

useful [thanks, CJ]. The communication problems my wife and I have had over the

years have taken their toll on me and, sometimes, I've become very stressed. But

it now seems clear that I have OTRS. It's no exaggeration to say that this

realisation together with the table and follow-up research I've undertaken has

transformed our lives.

-----------------------

Helen, you write, " AS females tend to be more pragmatic and less emotionally

demanding. and also have fewer communication challenges than their AS male

counterparts. "

In my experience, dealing with my wife and two similarly affected mature

step-daughters, the challenges I've had to grapple with over the last 20 years

are not dissimilar to those I've seen described by your members discussing their

AS male partners. In particular, the recent exchange sums up my experience with

the daughters very well indeed.

*******

LIZ: Anyway, in the audience at my friend's panel was a woman I can only

describe as a militant Aspie. She was constantly interrupting, making demands

that the NT world had to unconditionally accept her, declaring that the world

had to change to fit her needs, ..

CJ: . Unfortunately, I've met a lot of folks like this within the AS community.

Militant, angry, bitter, with a chip on their shoulder a mile wide, and inviting

rejection at every turn. Thoroughly obnoxious individuals without a clue who are

absolutely convinced of their Rightness, who are inclined to argue every little

thing, strongly asserting opinions that are anything but informed.

HELEN: .. Unfortunately, the same kind of alienating behaviors that caused them

social difficulty are now the ones they wear as a badge of pride. They confuse

assertiveness (standing one's ground) with violating others sensibilities and

boundaries - over and over again. " That's the way I am, " they now think. " Take

it or leave it. " And sadly, a great number of others are going to leave it. .

Unfortunately, you have no opportunity to tell people like her the things that

could help them. They are so hypervigilant towards anything that smacks of

criticism that they equate it with an attack on the very essence of their being.

So they go on blithely offending and alienating, being shunned, and destined to

never know why. ...

*******

Best,

Will

-----------------------

Re: AS/NS rules for survival in a relationship

Hi CJ,

Every book has a different audience; this one is primarily aimed at NS female

partners.

There certainly is an untapped market for male NS partners, but like the joke I

posted yesterday, men don't typically broadcast their problems let alone seek

out trained therapists - until the situation becomes dire. Hence, the virtual

absence of NS male perspectives in published material.

Many of the authors of AS/NT partners books do have a close family member eg. a

parent, a partner or child with AS. They can really only speak to what they

know, or deal with as professionals. The overwhelming percentage of spouses

seeking help are female NS partners of AS males. We can't expect the authors to

hunt down NS male partners for the purposes of their research, LOL.

Years ago Jennie and I theorized that it's very possible the majority of male NS

partners don't have a problem with their AS female spouse. AS females tend to be

more pragmatic and less emotionally demanding. and also have fewer communication

challenges than their AS male counterparts. I think (just my opinion tho .. I'd

love to hear from NS males on this one) that if problems arise in an AS

female/NT male partnership, that the female AS spouse has far more problems than

just the AS.

I am sorry that I'm not addressing same sex couples here, but I can only speak

to what I know, too. I am sure many memberscouple of would love to hear YOUR

stories. I know from having read Gottman that the challenges aren't that

different.

We had a male NS member here a few years back, but he disclosed very little to

us while he was here. He didn't share about the emotional impact to him or the

children; he was primarily concerned with the physical care and day to day

matters. His wife had had some kind of breakdown and was institutionalized at

one point, and she didn't seem to have an interest in seeing or caring for their

children. Her problems went far, far beyond AS, and eventually he divorced her

and left the group. We do have young male NS partner, who is very

expressive. He was active in the group here last summer and we hope to hear back

from him again soon. We also have a few more male NS spouses here now and

hopefully some of them will start come forward with their stories.

Getting back to the book, I do think NT guys can relate to some of the

challenges NS women face in the book. I think the book would be also be helpful

for purely NS/NS couples as well, if you substituted " different communication

styles " in place of " AS. " Most of the problems that AS/NS couples face are

common to the problems NS/NS couples face, only amped up several notches, due to

both their past baggage, different communication styles and priorities.

- Helen

* Note to the newcomers: we use NS (non spectrum) and NT (neurotypical) here

interchangeably. Years ago Meyer coined the term " non-spectrum " on ASPIRES

as a more inclusive descriptor for people who are not on the autism spectrum.

Few people, if any, are really, truly, " average " or " neurotypical. " We all have

special gifts, and challenges.

[Guest guest]

Hi Will

I'm so happy that you decided to join us and hope that you will keep

posting. Glad you are enjoying the articles too....

Best,

~CJ

> Hello Helen!

>

> I'm a new (male) NS-member living in the UK! My thoughts may be of interest.

>

> I joined the group some time ago but haven't had time to participate. I have a

> little more time now so have been reading the recent postings to try and get

an

> understanding of the main group interests. I haven't seen anything that

> resembles the major difficulty involved in my NS-AS marriage. Here's some

> background:

>

> I've been married for 15 years and my wife and I have always had significant

> communication problems.

>

> My wife has had major problems throughout her life. She's dyslexic and, it

> appears, was regularly labelled " stupid " during her schooldays and by people

she

> met in later life - and she grew up thinking this was true. It's become clear

to

> me over the years that *our* communication problems seem to stem from this

> dyslexia, indeed, as time has gone on I've realised that there's MUCH MORE to

> dyslexia than *just* problems with the written word. For example, my wife

> [sometimes] has problems understanding *exactly* what I might be saying [the

> words that come out of my mouth] and, conversely, the words that come out of

her

> mouth [sometimes] don't represent *exactly* what she's trying to say. Most of

> the time, these 'confusions' don't become clear to me until we are two or

three

> sentences into the conversation and by then it's usually impossible to

> back-track and clear up the confusion and move on to a coherent discussion.

>

> There are many, many other aspects of my wife's behaviour that have caused

much

> anguish [to both of us] over the years but the situation has been transformed

> over the last six months by the realisation [of both of us] that my wife is

" on

> the spectrum " , probably with some variation of Asperger's, certainly many of

the

> indicators found in the standard Aspergers checklists apply to her. This

> knowledge and understanding of the reality underlying our difficulties has

been

> a great help and our communication problems are now much improved as a result.

>

> Some of the articles I've discovered recently have been real eye-openers. In

> particular, the " Impacts-and-Deficits-in-NT-ASD-Relationships " has been very

> useful [thanks, CJ]. The communication problems my wife and I have had over

the

> years have taken their toll on me and, sometimes, I've become very stressed.

But

> it now seems clear that I have OTRS. It's no exaggeration to say that this

> realisation together with the table and follow-up research I've undertaken has

> transformed our lives.

>

> -----------------------

> Helen, you write, " AS females tend to be more pragmatic and less emotionally

> demanding. and also have fewer communication challenges than their AS male

> counterparts. "

>

> In my experience, dealing with my wife and two similarly affected mature

> step-daughters, the challenges I've had to grapple with over the last 20 years

> are not dissimilar to those I've seen described by your members discussing

their

> AS male partners. In particular, the recent exchange sums up my experience

with

> the daughters very well indeed.

>

> *******

> LIZ: Anyway, in the audience at my friend's panel was a woman I can only

> describe as a militant Aspie. She was constantly interrupting, making demands

> that the NT world had to unconditionally accept her, declaring that the world

> had to change to fit her needs, ..

> CJ: . Unfortunately, I've met a lot of folks like this within the AS

community.

> Militant, angry, bitter, with a chip on their shoulder a mile wide, and

inviting

> rejection at every turn. Thoroughly obnoxious individuals without a clue who

are

> absolutely convinced of their Rightness, who are inclined to argue every

little

> thing, strongly asserting opinions that are anything but informed.

> HELEN: .. Unfortunately, the same kind of alienating behaviors that caused

them

> social difficulty are now the ones they wear as a badge of pride. They confuse

> assertiveness (standing one's ground) with violating others sensibilities and

> boundaries - over and over again. " That's the way I am, " they now think. " Take

> it or leave it. " And sadly, a great number of others are going to leave it. .

> Unfortunately, you have no opportunity to tell people like her the things that

> could help them. They are so hypervigilant towards anything that smacks of

> criticism that they equate it with an attack on the very essence of their

being.

> So they go on blithely offending and alienating, being shunned, and destined

to

> never know why. ...

> *******

>

> Best,

> Will

>

[Guest guest]

> It doesn't help that a *few* of the most militant in the autistic self

advocacy camp try to minimize OTRS/CP. A very small number within their ranks

have employed rather crude methods to attack professionals and groups who

provide information and support for OTRS/CP suffers. In some cases they have

" succeeded " in driving support groups underground, thus depriving isolated

sufferers from access to information and support. Their " victory " with having

this information removed from public domain has not come without a cost, though.

Some large organizations that support families of autistic now bar dx'd and self

dx'd autistics from their membership, excluding the voice of reasoned folks who

are the majority in our ranks. Good job! Thanks for speaking for all of us! Not!

This is why you won't find a lot of information on the web about OTRS/CP yet.

>

> Even raising the topic this group has sometimes elicited sharp rebuttals in

the past, with one or two people saying it makes *them* feel demeaned. Well no,

it shouldn't. If they aren't like that, well then nothing to worry about. I

always say, " if the shoe fits, wear it, but if not, then don't buy the shoe! "

But some wouldn't even allow you to look at the shoe.

Helen, that has so been my experience too in the AS community, and we

have talked about that in the past. While the most militant and

opinionated seem to be fewer in number, it only takes a handful of these

loud reactionary folks to test patience, generate tension, and spoil a

group experience (online or off) for others.

You may remember my most recent experience with the OTRS/CP topic in

another forum. The fuse was lit when I recommended a Maxine Aston

article to the group and explained why I liked it. What a mistake that

was! The usual militants had such a hostile reaction (similar to what

you describe above) that I questioned the wisdom of continuing to invest

my time sharing with that particular audience.

It was only after a few of the obnoxious regulars resorted to

name-calling, challenging my AS diagnosis, and demanding that I stop

spamming their group with my " AS hating " articles, that I came to accept

that these folks (a) didn't get it, ( weren't likely to get it, and

© that I was largely casting pearls before swine. Wrong audience

entirely, which I acknowledged and agreed to share no further articles.

The bright side of that story is that a bunch of folks delurked, shared

how much they enjoyed my contributions, and requested that copies of any

future articles be sent to them off-group. I got to meet quite a few

nice people, with whom I had some great email exchanges. I was so

impressed with meeting Will and reading his story that I invited him to

join ASPIRES, as I thought he would fit in with our group very well.

I'm glad to see that he accepted the invitation and hope that he

continues to participate.

> I appreciate (though I can't know, intimately, since I'm not male) that there

are specific emotional and physical needs you have as a NS male spouse that are

probably going wanting, and I know of no book addresses those nuanced issues

yet. One of you may have to write it!

Too bad my NS husband is no longer with us. He had a gift for writing,

and was very articulate about the emotional and physical starvation he

experienced while being married to me, during the Bad Old Days before

either of us knew about AS. Talk about a basketful of miscommunications

and perceived rejection, each incident fueled by existing

vulnerabilities and baggage from the past. <sigh>

Best,

~CJ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let your wise mind be governing your words, not your emotions.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your kind words Helen.

I'll expand somewhat on " my story " in the hope that others might benefit and,

possibly, some might come up with some ideas I can usefully use myself. I don't

want to 'tread on any toes' and so if the following comments are unwelcome in

this group please let me know.

Apart from the things I mentioned in my last post, it's become clear to me that

my wife has ODD and, with regard to this aspect, I'm slowly beginning to

understand that although " no " may be her first response to new ideas it may just

mean she needs more time to think about things. However, this means that very

often conversations never end and we can't make progress with particular

dilemmas. I'm a consulter. When in a relationship I always consult with the

other person regarding what to do but this does not work with my wife. The

communication problems I mentioned before mean that meaningful consultation is

virtually impossible. So, I'm endeavouring to change the habits of a lifetime

and, if we're in a situation where we need to make a quick decision, I do not

consult, I 'take over' and make a decision concerning what to do. This usually

works out quite well although she never forgets that " she wasn't consulted " .

We have no social life despite the fact that my wife is a very friendly person

and people like her when they meet her. My challenge (and hers) is to try and

make sure we avoid situations that she finds difficult and, unfortunately, close

friendships with other couples are such situations. I now have a good idea which

social situations cause her problems and try to avoid them as far as possible.

And when they can't be avoided I protect her as best I can by deflecting

discussion away from areas where I know she has difficulty. Conversations work

quite well when the other people are " talkative " but often, of course, this is

not the case. Usually, when we meet people that want to engage in conversation

then they *are* talkative so everything is OK. Some people however, are less

talkative, and things can then be awkward. My wife can't deal with pauses in

conversations and feels under pressure to keep the conversation going which

results in her continuously changing the subject inappropriately. She doesn't

realise that people might be just collecting their thoughts before continuing.

My wife doesn't do empathy, sympathy, TLC, etc. She is very independent, appears

distant much of the time, often seems withdrawn and uninterested, almost aloof.

She has no sense of humour, and does not like to be touched. She has a complete

lack of awareness concerning the emotional needs of other people. I am a very

sociable person and have a good sense of humour and these facets of my wife's

behaviour have been the most difficult to cope with over the years. This has

been the root cause, I think, of my OTRS. But now that I know about AS and have

a better understanding of how my wife's brain works things are better. I'm

trying to focus on just ignoring these " empathy " aspects of my wife's nature.

She 'sees the world' differently to me and ACCEPTANCE of this " fact of life " , on

my part, is the key to survival, I think. And also, now that I understand that

it's *not her fault*, it's the AS, I'm finding it much easier to cope with life.

And life is not all hunky-dory in the NS-world. Before meeting my wife, I had

several significant relationships with NS-women who were aggressive, phobic,

paranoid, depressed, etc., and by comparison my present AS-wife is a blessing.

She is a wonderful housekeeper, cook, etc. I could not ask for more in these

departments. She is persistent and I know she'll always be there for me come

what may. We have our problems, but they are almost trivial compared to what

I've experienced in the past.

And our " problems " are much diminished now I've " discovered " AS. My wife agrees

with me she's " on the Spectrum " but is sensitive about this and would be

mortified if this became general knowledge. I've considered consulting a

physician but don't think this is likely to be useful and so, for now, we're

keeping the AS/ OTRS diagnoses to ourselves.

I'm learning to NOT take things personally and NOT blame my wife for anything.

I've realised that I should always include " The Why " when making a request or

suggestion, i.e. a logical explanation of my reasoning. If I can't think of a

" Why " , I should say nothing. I try to constantly focus on the positives in our

relationship, and move forward with our lives. My wife is happier as well, she

realises that I'm understanding her better and we, as a couple, are now getting

on better than ever before. But life is not easy and I don't pretend that it is.

I'll leave it there for now.

Best,

Will

Re: AS/NS rules for survival in a relationship

Will,

Welcome to ASPIRES and *thank you* for sharing your story, that's very brave.

Forgive me if I make a generalization, but men are less likely to disclose

personal suffering - it's part of the " suck it up and be a man " ethos - and

because of that, men are ultimately are more likely to wind up externalizing in

more harmful ways, eg. excessive drinking. Men are only just starting to open up

about their own experiences with childhood sexual assault, and it will probably

take many more years before we hear more from male sufferers of " Cassandra

Phenomenon " (CP)or " Ongoing traumatic relationship syndrome " (OTRS)

It doesn't help that a *few* of the most militant in the autistic self advocacy

camp try to minimize OTRS/CP. A very small number within their ranks have

employed rather crude methods to attack professionals and groups who provide

information and support for OTRS/CP suffers. In some cases they have " succeeded "

in driving support groups underground, thus depriving isolated sufferers from

access to information and support. Their " victory " with having this information

removed from public domain has not come without a cost, though. Some large

organizations that support families of autistic now bar dx'd and self dx'd

autistics from their membership, excluding the voice of reasoned folks who are

the majority in our ranks. Good job! Thanks for speaking for all of us! Not!

This is why you won't find a lot of information on the web about OTRS/CP yet.

Even raising the topic this group has sometimes elicited sharp rebuttals in the

past, with one or two people saying it makes *them* feel demeaned. Well no, it

shouldn't. If they aren't like that, well then nothing to worry about. I always

say, " if the shoe fits, wear it, but if not, then don't buy the shoe! " But some

wouldn't even allow you to look at the shoe.

If you google " Cassandra, " in addition to its roots in Greek mythology and AS/NT

relationships, you will see references to its occurrence in modern day corporate

settings. Perhaps the most famous " Cassandra " in modern times was Martha

, first known derisively as " the Mouth of the South " and then later,

" the Cassandra of Watergate. " As the economy worsens, the " dog eat dog " culture

in corporate and political circles will cause the ranks of its victims to swell,

assuring that one day some variant of the unofficial " Cassandra Phenomenon "

label will be enshrined in the DSM or ICD. Until then, we probably won't see

much research on it, outside of the context of AS/NT relationships.

Unfortunately, this will continue to rankle some of the more mind-blind amongst

us.

I really digressed here, Will, but I hope that in your raising this topic that

others will feel comfortable with discussing their own experiences. I have

spoken of it here in the past, if you do an archive search with my name and

" Cassandra " or " Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder. "

You actually covered a lot of ground in your post. In the last part you spoke to

the particular way that AS can strike some females, that sort of hypervigilant

and rather one-way flow of communication that goes on (they speak a lot but

don't listen.) To outsiders they appear social but do in fact have a lot of

communication challenges and probably do run into social difficulties in their

work and personal relationships.

It does sound like your wife is willing to acknowledge AS (and dyslexia is a

common co-morbid condition with AS.) There are quite a number of female female

first person accounts of AS and ASDs. The older ones from Lianne Holiday Willey,

Dawn Prince , Temple Grandin, Donna , Lawson (and many more)

are good. Each one offers a different perspective, depending on their own

background and experiences. Rudy Simone has published a number of books recently

and one of our new members, , recommends it highly. As for you, I hope you

will continue find the resources that were written for non spectrum female

spouses of some value. I appreciate (though I can't know, intimately, since I'm

not male) that there are specific emotional and physical needs you have as a NS

male spouse that are probably going wanting, and I know of no book addresses

those nuanced issues yet. One of you may have to write it!

Best regards and again, thank you for coming forward.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

What's OTRS? Come on. Explain the acronym.

N. Meyer

[Guest guest]

Thankyew.

R

Re: AS/NS rules for survival in a relationship

>

>

>> What's OTRS? Come on. Explain the acronym.

>> N. Meyer

>

>I did, in my own post.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/aspires-relationships/message/18936 It

appears to be the latest incarnation of the (unofficial) " Cassandra Phenomenon "

label, perhaps coined by FAAAS. http://faaas.org/otrscp/

>- Helen

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

> " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are

like a symphony.

>Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

>It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

>We all contribute to the song of life. "

> ...Sondra

>

> We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

>

> ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

>Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

> When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

> ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com

>

[Guest guest]

Can someone post the answer. I can't access the link. ThanksSent from my iPhone

Thankyew.

R

Re: AS/NS rules for survival in a relationship

>

>

>> What's OTRS? Come on. Explain the acronym.

>> N. Meyer

>

>I did, in my own post. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/aspires-relationships/message/18936 It appears to be the latest incarnation of the (unofficial) "Cassandra Phenomenon" label, perhaps coined by FAAAS. http://faaas.org/otrscp/

>- Helen

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

> "We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony.

>Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

>It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

>We all contribute to the song of life."

> ...Sondra

>

> We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

>

> ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

>Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

> When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

> ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks again Helen, The book looks great. I will look for it and hope that we can both read it to give us some extra support :)Sent from my iPhone

>

> Thank you so much for pointing this out Helen as I hadn't noticed it. I read through and it makes a LOT of sense. I particularly liked the part about how others react to the relationship. I often find myself defending my Husband to others when they complain about how much I do in the relationship to keep us financially afloat or having to explain why he hasn't attended an event or wouldn't want to do something. There is a lot of priceless advice in there and I will share it with my husband if he is willing to give it a read that is.

> Thanks again,

>

Hello again ,

I'm so glad Judy's document is helpful for you. If you can access the archives of this group, you will find that *anything* written by Judy Barrow is gold! High recommended reading for all newcomers. Judy should really publish a book of all of her writings.

You may also find the following book very helpful: "The Partner's Guide to Asperger Syndrome" is co-authored by Marci Wheeler, a long time ASPIRES member, and was published late last year. I think you will find that many of the personal accounts resonate. The Amazon link is here:

The Partner's Guide to Asperger Syndrome

Moreno, Marci Wheeler, Kealah Parkinson

http://www.amazon.com/The-Partners-Guide-Asperger-Syndrome/dp/1849058784

- Helen