RE: Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post] -

[Guest guest]

,Sorry for jumping in here but I could not resist. I agree with you that we NTs have NO idea what is going on in our AS spouse’s minds nor can we know how hard they are trying. The example from my own life with is this:For the first 24 years of our marriage before he was diagnosed, I was extremely frustrated that I was pulling more than my share of the load and believed that he got his way almost all of the time. I also saw only minor examples of either change or growth on his side, by my perception of things, and most of that after he hit 40.Ours was the typically described relationship where the NT spouse feels they are doing all of the giving and accommodating with little or no reciprocation from the AS spouse.Since then I have a completely different understanding of events. I now see that all those years when I was yelling at him: “I hear you say you are trying as hard as you can, but I can’t see you moving”, he actually was trying extremely hard, harder than I think I can now imagine, I just could not see it. And he could not express it. I now liken it to a computer doing a download that took a very long time to install. It took him a very long time to understand what I was asking of him and to make sense of it and to be able to communicate some of what he was going through to me. Knowledge is power! Since we have been reading about AS and working on our relationship with our eyes open it is a completely different relationship than it was. You are correct that we did not know what was right and what was wrong, nor who was right (I certainly carry a lot of guilt for the ways I treated out of frustration and resentment). We try very hard now to come from a place of love and compassion in our dealings with each other and the past is so far out of my mind it is hard to remember all the things I was so resentful about.And I am sure you were to your mind a perfectly good husband and from what I know of your story your wife did you a VERY great wrong. Perhaps she sensed a sort of naivety in you that attracted her and made her think you would be a fellow who could be easily manipulated. I know that some people perceived that as my reason for marrying . They thought I did it because he would be the sort of guy who would try to give me the moon. Little did they know that as much as he might have wanted to give me the moon he couldn’t even help me feel valued.And I for one love reading the AS men’s posts because it helps me to understand the ways may be feeling or thinking and I can then ask him about it and gain insight into him that I might otherwise never get. So I for one want to hear how you think and feel! I want to hear the other side of the story. I already know my side. JCheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of EyreSent: April-10-12 8:34 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post] Helen,Thanks for your Tue, 10 Apr 2012 reply at 17:12:58 -0000.What you say is reasonable too, but we shouldn't forget that in any relationship we're talking about two different individuals with different throught processes and different perceptions on things.You wrote:> ..... What I was talking about though is bit different - an extremely unequal relationship where one person does all the giving and accommodating, rarely to see it reciprocated in kind, or otherwise.Right, but that perception of " extremely unequal " would most likely be only the viewpoint of one of the partners. Chances are the other partner would see it differently. Indeed the more disfunctional the relationship, the more differently they'd be likely to see it.The point I'm getting at is where is our reference here? Who is really right and who is wrong? How can one side be justified in unilaterally saying they are doing all the giving? They could be right, and maybe in many of the cases we hear about here in Aspires they do appear to the rest of us to be right, but theirs is just one side of the story. We haven't heard the other side, so it's possible they could be wrong.Not only could they be wrong, but we're back to the conundrum of what is " right " and " wrong " in the first place.For example I could go to town on here and explain to you all in a well-written treatise what an exemplary well-behaved AS husband I am, and how I've been so severely wronged by my NT wife. But I don't go down that road because as only one side of the story, however well-written, it would lack credibility amongst our readers.So by the same token, before we unconditionally condemn any of our partners as simply being " bad " or " uncooperative " , we should allow for the possibility of there being another side to the story, even if we don't understand it.

[Guest guest]

For

the first 24 years of our marriage before he was diagnosed,

I was extremely frustrated that I was pulling more than my

share of the load and believed that he got his way almost

all of the time. I also saw only minor examples of either

change or growth on his side, by my perception of things,

and most of that after he hit 40.

Ours was the typically described relationship

where the NT spouse feels they are doing all of the giving

and accommodating with little or no reciprocation from the

AS spouse.

Sounds like my own marriage to a codependent NT man, Deb. Once he

decided to be codependent no mo', I took the brunt of all those

resentments he had been storing up for years. I still carry around

a lot of guilt and pain for inadvertently causing him so much

suffering.

Since then I have a completely different

understanding of events. I now see that all those years when

I was yelling at him: “I hear you say you are trying as hard

as you can, but I can’t see you moving”, he actually was

trying extremely hard, harder than I think I can now

imagine, I just could not see it. And he could not express

it. I now liken it to a computer doing a download that took

a very long time to install. It took him a very long time to

understand what I was asking of him and to make sense of it

and to be able to communicate some of what he was going

through to me.

Sadly, my husband and I never got this far. At the time he passed,

he was still blaming me for "making excuses and trying to legitimize

[with AS diagnosis] my bad behavior".

And I am sure you were to your mind a perfectly

good husband and from what I know of your story your wife

did you a VERY great wrong. Perhaps she sensed a sort of

naivety in you that attracted her and made her think you

would be a fellow who could be easily manipulated.

Having known a lot of naive western men who were manipulated into

marriage by women from developing countries, I admit to having a

prejudice in this area. Those countries (e.g., Russia, Thailand)

which have notorious reputations for exploiting western men are more

likely to raise my suspicions of a woman's motives. She will need

to jump through a lot of hoops for me to give her the benefit of the

doubt as to her intentions with respect to my lonely male friends

who (for whatever reason) cannot seem to find a marriage partner in

their own country.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

> Having known a lot of naive western men who were manipulated into

> marriage by women from developing countries, I admit to having a

> prejudice in this area. Those countries (e.g., Russia, Thailand) which

> have notorious reputations for exploiting western men are more likely to

> raise my suspicions of a woman's motives. She will need to jump through

> a lot of hoops for me to give her the benefit of the doubt as to her

> intentions with respect to my lonely male friends who (for whatever

> reason) cannot seem to find a marriage partner in their own country.

Yes, I'd agree that a lot of exploitation goes on against naïve

potential partners in all sorts of different ways. This is simply the

way of the world, isn't it? Exploitation applies not only in

relationships but in buying and selling, politics, religion, and you

name it, with scams, exploitation and manipulation abounding everywhere.

But another factor which increases the risk of a naïve Aspie getting

" done " is the level of education and sophistication of perpetrators.

Simple uneducated people haven't learned the tricks so the need for us

to be on our guard against them is less. Conversely and sadly,

though, finding a partner capable of building a good intellectual

relationship with us carries with it a greater risk of deception and

ultimately getting done in some way or other.

As a naïve Aspie, I suppose I got " done " by both my wives, but in two

totally different ways. My first wife was a Westerner with let's say

average education and intelligence, so to minimise the risk of getting

" done " again, my 2nd marriage was to a much less educated and less

sophisticated 3rd world woman. Big gaps between us in education and

culture, but I thought that sacrifice would serve as a kind of

insurance against any recurrence of what happened the first time. It

did avoid a repeat performance, but it didn't avoid me falling victim

to my naïvity and getting " done " in a totally different way to the

previous time.

So Aspie naïvity is one common factor here, and Aspie unforgiving

grudge-bearing is another.

[Guest guest]

It is so sad that there are so many here both AS and NT who have suffered in their relationships and mostly because we were ignorant and did not have tools and good support. Here’s hoping the next generation have it easier than we did! Cheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of CJSent: April-30-12 11:04 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post] - For the first 24 years of our marriage before he was diagnosed, I was extremely frustrated that I was pulling more than my share of the load and believed that he got his way almost all of the time. I also saw only minor examples of either change or growth on his side, by my perception of things, and most of that after he hit 40.Ours was the typically described relationship where the NT spouse feels they are doing all of the giving and accommodating with little or no reciprocation from the AS spouse.Sounds like my own marriage to a codependent NT man, Deb. Once he decided to be codependent no mo', I took the brunt of all those resentments he had been storing up for years. I still carry around a lot of guilt and pain for inadvertently causing him so much suffering.Since then I have a completely different understanding of events. I now see that all those years when I was yelling at him: “I hear you say you are trying as hard as you can, but I can’t see you moving”, he actually was trying extremely hard, harder than I think I can now imagine, I just could not see it. And he could not express it. I now liken it to a computer doing a download that took a very long time to install. It took him a very long time to understand what I was asking of him and to make sense of it and to be able to communicate some of what he was going through to me. Sadly, my husband and I never got this far. At the time he passed, he was still blaming me for " making excuses and trying to legitimize [with AS diagnosis] my bad behavior " .And I am sure you were to your mind a perfectly good husband and from what I know of your story your wife did you a VERY great wrong. Perhaps she sensed a sort of naivety in you that attracted her and made her think you would be a fellow who could be easily manipulated. Having known a lot of naive western men who were manipulated into marriage by women from developing countries, I admit to having a prejudice in this area. Those countries (e.g., Russia, Thailand) which have notorious reputations for exploiting western men are more likely to raise my suspicions of a woman's motives. She will need to jump through a lot of hoops for me to give her the benefit of the doubt as to her intentions with respect to my lonely male friends who (for whatever reason) cannot seem to find a marriage partner in their own country.Best,~CJ