Re: Re:Mold Test Kit (Difficulty of poor/middle class to afford 'requirements' to bring mold case in court, rea

[Guest guest]

There are many reasons, LiveSimply, and most are what you are talking

about: Social and financial constraints and barriers rather then

technology or medicine.

This is one of the flaws in putting too much emphasis on just taking

" some samples. " The data from samples will not compel anyone to do

what is right. It takes a number of factors in a consistent method

by those who know how to avoid the traps and advance the outcome.

Experts, in other words, who are professionals and operate with

ethics.

If people are cooperative instead of antagonistic, much can be

achieved quickly and at lower cost. I recently finished a job in a

48,000 sq ft office building. Because everyone was cooperative and

working together, the total cost for me, lab samples, the contractor,

the engineer, orignal architect, materials and labor was under

$20,000. Without the cooperation it would have easily cost over

$50,000. They saved over 40% on my fees alone because I was allowed

to just do my job and not constantly contest, defend and provide

constant oversight.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

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> Carl,

>

> This sounds as if it would cost thousands of dollars.

>

> Will lawyers take cases without all this expensive stuff?

> Most renters are sick and its hard enough even just finding another

> place to live

> when you are sick and unemployed. I would think that the courts should bend

over

> backwards to help people sue predatory slumlords, etc .

>

> Instead Ive heard that the act of hiring a mold inspector to inspect

> an apartment can end up triggering

> a lawsuit by the landlord against the tenant AND the mold inspector.

> There is something wrong with

> that picture.

>

> Thats one big reason, but can you think of any other reasons you can

> think of why low-income folks have trouble getting their day in court?

>

> I think that since its so important

>

> #I'll take a quick stab at your questions:

> #

> #> Are there different species of stachybotrys?

> #

> #Yes. The Stachybotrys we all talk about is Stachybotrys chartarum.

> #The " chartarum " is the species. It used to be called " atra. " It

> #seems, I don't know why, that the other species have been eliminated

> #from concern. Memnoniella is another mold similar to Stachybotrys

> #(and should be of equal concern) except it produces spores in long

> #chains.

> #

> #> How can people speciate mold samples?

> #

> #The samples have to be cultured (with a couple of exceptions for a

> #skilled microscopist). For example, Penicillium and Aspergillus

> #spores cannot be differentiated under the microscope unless growth

> #structures are present. The difference, as hinted in the previous, is

> #determined by the growth structures and how the colonies form and how

> #spores are generated (culturing). It takes training and equipment to

> #control the conditons of temp, humidity and food source to separate

> #the different species.

> #

> #> Is the $250 per sample Aerotech ERMI test good enough?

> #

> #Good enough for what? It is fantastic at speciating but the number of

> #molds and species it can identify is limited to 36 (If I remember

> #correctly).

> #

> #As for the ERMI Rating system itself, there has been considerable

> #discussion among the experts about several fundamental flaws

> #preventing it from accomplishing what it claims. There is also

> #concern that it was originally developed with support from EPA but

> #they withdrew any connection because it was released before they felt

> #it was sufficiently developed. There is more information on a

> #petition at http://www.gopetition.com/online/14485.html

> #

> #> How much do these DNA tests for mold cost?

> #

> #The DNA tests alone are identified as PCR or qPCR process. ERMI,

> #which is an index interpretation, uses PCR process to identify the

> #molds to the species level (limited by their library). This data is

> #then interpreted by a specific evaluation method which generates the

> #Relative Moldiness Index (the RMI of ERMI). PCR cost varies by lab

> #but is " roughly " in the the $250-$350 per sample range. Keep in mind

> #that neither the PCR nor ERMI tell you how much mold. The DNA

> #identification may come from 100 spores or a million spores, it can't

> #tell the difference.

> #

> #> Do people need to hire CIH's to take samples that are used in court,

> #

> #No. Such a requirement, unless there were other criteria like for

> #licensed medical doctors, could well be a violation of the restraint

> #of trade laws. In other words, people other than CIHs can obtain the

> #education, training and experience to collect and interpret samples.

> #(You only asked about collecting samples, which is important, but not

> #nearly as much as interpreting the data). However, some attorneys and

> #judges prefer CIHs based on general reputation. Or, as one attorney

> #told me when he admitted CIHs have no special technical or

> #professional advantage, they make for a better " show " in the

> #courtroom.

> #

> #Bear with me as I digress to what is actually a hot topic in the

> #industry. Many non-CIHs insist most of the CIHs have not been trained

> #and don't understand the non-work environment. Remember, the " I " in

> #CIH or IH stands for " industrial. " CIHs claim their extensive and in-

> #depth scientific training quality them to do any kind of sampling.

> #

> #The difference, to me, comes down to interpretation of results. CIHs

> #interpret according the regulations and in the context of the 40 hour

> #work week for middle-aged healthy white males. This is a well

> #documented mistake. On the other side of the argument, although many

> #if not most non-CIHs interpret results in the context of non-work

> #environments, few understand how to correctly determine why, where

> #and when to sample, how to handle the samples and which labs are

> #appropriate.

> #

> #Then comes the interpretation of results, which is extremely

> #controversial for mold because there are no permissible exposure

> #levels of specific criteria for comparison. It is left to each person

> #to apply their own. I once wrote a post to this group where I

> #interpreted mold data according to ten (10) different methods of

> #comparison. No single one is agreed upon by industry consensus.

> #

> #However, there are a few qualified experts, several on this group,

> #who have developed consistent procedures and consistent

> #interpretations backed by best available studies who successfully

> #testify in court. Unfortunately, many mold trials are decided by

> #legal issues and not by exposure and harm.

> #

> #But getting back to your question: CIH and IH are often used as a

> #generic term for someone qualified (whatever that means) to collect

> #and interpret samples. No certification is required to be qualified

> #but it often makes qualification for testifying much easier.

> #

> #> and then additionally pay them to testify?

> #

> #Of course. There is a cost for collecting the samples, handling,

> #supplies, time, analysis of the results and writing a report. If they

> #are deposed they are paid for their time, but by the opposing party.

> #However, there is also preparation time for depositions and

> #testifying plus time on the witness stand. Many of these " hard " costs

> #are not included in the deferred costs in a contingency case. Unless

> #specifically included in the written agreement with the attorney,

> #they usually required payment at time of service.

> #

> #Hope this helps more than it confuses.

> #

> #Carl Grimes

> #Healthy Habitats LLC

> #

>

>

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