Re: American College of Medical Toxicology Position Statement...

[Guest guest]

It is all about money, BIG money and they do not care PERIOD! I agree, they

are putting the wagons in a nice tight circle!!!!

It seems every time we get our heads just a little above water we go under

again.

I keep hoping to see it recognized in my life time for everyone's sake

especially the children.

Sue

This is all about money. Just like the healthcare debate,

its all about money and not wanting to spend it on poor people,

often poor people without jobs.

They are putting the wagons in a circle, so to speak.

**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002\

5

48)

[Guest guest]

Quackadillian,

Actually, I do see the recognition and the need for change in construction

standards. They ARE acknowledging that all of these efforts for energy

efficiency is causing moisture problems. I listened in on a teleconference

today

where Dr. Jack Spengler of Harvard School of Public Health spoke. He was

right on the money. He spoke of mold being a very serious problem and how

other

countries are addressing it better. Spoke of the need to some of these HMO's

to realize how much money is being wasted on illness and how they need to

get behind research to stop and treat our illnesses.

I was really pleased. There was not a single word he said that I would

disagree with. Harvard School of Public Health carries much weight in setting

national policy. We are getting there. Slow but sure.

Sharon K

In a message dated 2/12/2008 8:32:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

quackadillian@... writes:

Its not enough to just 'recognize' mold illness, we have to figure out

how to clean up the mold in homes, schools and workplaces nationally.

Or create a huge amount of safe, new housing, schools and workplaces

out of thin air. Do you see that happening? No. I don't either.

We are in denial - We need to do this, but without some thought, we

will see a massive crisis on multiple levels. A lot of people will

lose their rented homes.

We all have to take responsibility for solving this problem. Its not a

simple thing. We have to make remediation mandatory. We have to focus

on the outcome and not let people weasel out of it and also not let

them throw out tenants simply because they don't want to do it.

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy

Awards. Go to AOL Music.

(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

[Guest guest]

Its not enough to just 'recognize' mold illness, we have to figure out

how to clean up the mold in homes, schools and workplaces nationally.

Or create a huge amount of safe, new housing, schools and workplaces

out of thin air. Do you see that happening? No. I don't either.

We are in denial - We need to do this, but without some thought, we

will see a massive crisis on multiple levels. A lot of people will

lose their rented homes.

We all have to take responsibility for solving this problem. Its not a

simple thing. We have to make remediation mandatory. We have to focus

on the outcome and not let people weasel out of it and also not let

them throw out tenants simply because they don't want to do it.

On 2/11/08, ssr3351@... <ssr3351@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> It is all about money, BIG money and they do not care PERIOD! I agree, they

> are putting the wagons in a nice tight circle!!!!

>

> It seems every time we get our heads just a little above water we go under

> again.

>

> I keep hoping to see it recognized in my life time for everyone's sake

> especially the children.

>

> Sue

>

> This is all about money. Just like the healthcare debate,

> its all about money and not wanting to spend it on poor people,

> often poor people without jobs.

>

> They are putting the wagons in a circle, so to speak.

>

> **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

>

(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002\

5

> 48)

>

>

[Guest guest]

One way water intrusion could be handled, would be to treat a

discovery on the same level as a fire. It could be a reportable

hazard, with an immediate action, and rechecks to make sure moisture

is in check. I say the insurance companies should be responsible and

have their " Adjusters " see to immediate remidiation.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > It is all about money, BIG money and they do not care PERIOD! I

agree, they

> > are putting the wagons in a nice tight circle!!!!

> >

> > It seems every time we get our heads just a little above water

we go under

> > again.

> >

> > I keep hoping to see it recognized in my life time for

everyone's sake

> > especially the children.

> >

> > Sue

> >

> > This is all about money. Just like the healthcare debate,

> > its all about money and not wanting to spend it on poor people,

> > often poor people without jobs.

> >

> > They are putting the wagons in a circle, so to speak.

> >

> > **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL

Music.

> > (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?

NCID=aolcmp003000000025

> > 48)

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think we are seeing a massive crisis all across the country but no one (

other than those of us who see the big picture) wants to listen. Most of our

schools and public buildings are in horrible condition. When I go out and

really look around I'm embarrassed at what things looks like. Our buildings

are

old and neglected and beginning to look like a third world country. Only the

big office buildings look good outside but who knows what's going on inside.

Did anyone see the program last night about the filthy hotels? It was

HORRIBLE! One was in New York and looked beautiful and upscale on the outside

but

inside was a different story. Peeling paint, mold on the bath walls, dirty

sheets, and MORE. I can't believe the health depts. get by with the inspections

they do. But I think most health depts. look the other way and just sign the

paper.

I keep trying to inform people every where. If I go into a place and see

stained ceiling tiles I tell them. Some listen and some don't.If they don't get

fixed I don't go back and I'm running out of places to go!! Problem is, that

most places lease the space they have and trying hard to run their business.

One new restaurant I went in had a brown tile, I explained to the owner what

could happen if not fixed. I went in a week later and there was a new tile.

Two weeks later it's brown again. I mentioned it to the owner again. She

said she was going to call the owner but said it was hard to get the first one

fixed. It's a very new and wonderful family restaurant that is doing a great

business but I'm sure the owners are only going to replace the tiles for a

while until she stops complaining then it will just get worse unless they fix

the roof!

It seems to be the same story over and over but I'll keep trying. Someone

has to listen eventually.

Sue

Its not enough to just 'recognize' mold illness, we have to figure out

how to clean up the mold in homes, schools and workplaces nationally.

Or create a huge amount of safe, new housing, schools and workplaces

out of thin air. Do you see that happening? No. I don't either.

We are in denial - We need to do this, but without some thought, we

will see a massive crisis on multiple levels. A lot of people will

lose their rented homes.

We all have to take responsibility for solving this problem. Its not a

simple thing. We have to make remediation mandatory. We have to focus

on the outcome and not let people weasel out of it and also not let

them throw out tenants simply because they don't want to do it.

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy

Awards. Go to AOL Music.

(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

[Guest guest]

Quackadillian,

I understand what you are saying and I agree that we should not have to work

so hard to be heard and have a change made, when so many are ill today and

so many will become ill tomorrow. We have had a tougher time than most for

quite a few reasons:

1. We are not a geographic cluster of illness

2. We are expensive to many influential industries, thus the resistance has

been quite high

3. There has been much misinformation marketed to decision makers

4. One of our primary problems when at our sickest is cognitive, thus it is

difficult to articulate in a logical manner, making us appear nutty.

5. There are not visible illnesses for the most part (like a broken leg)

makin it difficult for others to understand

6. The manifestations of mold illness vary greatly from person to person

7. The physicians of the US have been told mold cannot cause these various

illnesses

8. Diagnostics are limited in determining that mold has caused these

illnesses.

So...given that we sometimes look nutty because we can't stay focused to

explain , and they are being told we are nutty with the fact that we can't stay

focused as " proof " , it's been a real uphill battle.

But we are making headway and things are changing. Wish they would change

today - as they should. But I feel fairly certain they will change tomorrow.

Sharon K

In a message dated 2/13/2008 4:01:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

quackadillian@... writes:

Sharon,

I think that barring some serious discussion " slowly but surely " could

easily end up being so slowly that

nothing is done for a long time. And when " something " is done, what exactly

do we want to be done?

I guarantee to you that unless we get much smarter than we are it wont be

something that is good in the way we want it to be. What I would see

happening would be waivers that everyone would have to sign before renting

apartments, or taking jobs, that they were taking them " as is " . Thats it.

That would have the unintended effect of dramatically worstening workplace

safety.. and safe housing..

Recognition of mold illness? That would be an important start but a lot of

other things have to come along with that, like prevention of mold in rental

housing and workplace without the kind of unintended consequences that I

think could arise out of it without thought being applied to the

implementaion and implications.

We need to anticipate the way the ultra-selfish and ultra-greedy will react

and prevent them from doing what they do. Somehow. If its possible.

Or else, we might as all just throw in the towel and emigrate somewhere

else.. but where could we go?

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy

Awards. Go to AOL Music.

(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

I think that barring some serious discussion " slowly but surely " could

easily end up being so slowly that

nothing is done for a long time. And when " something " is done, what exactly

do we want to be done?

I guarantee to you that unless we get much smarter than we are it wont be

something that is good in the way we want it to be. What I would see

happening would be waivers that everyone would have to sign before renting

apartments, or taking jobs, that they were taking them " as is " . Thats it.

That would have the unintended effect of dramatically worstening workplace

safety.. and safe housing..

Recognition of mold illness? That would be an important start but a lot of

other things have to come along with that, like prevention of mold in rental

housing and workplace without the kind of unintended consequences that I

think could arise out of it without thought being applied to the

implementaion and implications.

We need to anticipate the way the ultra-selfish and ultra-greedy will react

and prevent them from doing what they do. Somehow. If its possible.

Or else, we might as all just throw in the towel and emigrate somewhere

else.. but where could we go?

On 2/12/08, snk1955@... <snk1955@...> wrote:

>

>

> Quackadillian,

>

> Actually, I do see the recognition and the need for change in construction

>

> standards. They ARE acknowledging that all of these efforts for energy

> efficiency is causing moisture problems. I listened in on a teleconference

> today

> where Dr. Jack Spengler of Harvard School of Public Health spoke. He was

> right on the money. He spoke of mold being a very serious problem and how

> other

> countries are addressing it better. Spoke of the need to some of these

> HMO's

> to realize how much money is being wasted on illness and how they need to

> get behind research to stop and treat our illnesses.

>

> I was really pleased. There was not a single word he said that I would

> disagree with. Harvard School of Public Health carries much weight in

> setting

> national policy. We are getting there. Slow but sure.

>

> Sharon K

>

> In a message dated 2/12/2008 8:32:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

> quackadillian@... <quackadillian%40gmail.com> writes:

>

> Its not enough to just 'recognize' mold illness, we have to figure out

> how to clean up the mold in homes, schools and workplaces nationally.

> Or create a huge amount of safe, new housing, schools and workplaces

> out of thin air. Do you see that happening? No. I don't either.

>

> We are in denial - We need to do this, but without some thought, we

> will see a massive crisis on multiple levels. A lot of people will

> lose their rented homes.

>

> We all have to take responsibility for solving this problem. Its not a

> simple thing. We have to make remediation mandatory. We have to focus

> on the outcome and not let people weasel out of it and also not let

> them throw out tenants simply because they don't want to do it.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

I hope that you are right about change. But my experience with this so

far has been that

this is a very difficult problem to get people to face.

Public officials don't want to deal with it. There is already a huge

shortage of affordable housing.

Bluntly, even poor people living in semi-blighted housing would often

prefer not to make things like

this an issue because THEY ARE OFTEN USED AS EXCUSES TO EVICT THEM AND

THEY KNOW IT.

Its a similar situation with schools. As long as this is framed as a

battle between maintainance and

teachers, etc. FOR A FINITE AMOUNT OF FUNDS.. the issue wont get solved..

We need to make it clear that it won't wait, that the cost on a

societal level is much more than avoiding it.. (and we have to make

that so- in reality, by dealing with it..getting people the care they

need.. so the cost is accurately seen.)

On 2/13/08, snk1955@... <snk1955@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Quackadillian,

>

> I understand what you are saying and I agree that we should not have to work

> so hard to be heard and have a change made, when so many are ill today and

> so many will become ill tomorrow. We have had a tougher time than most for

> quite a few reasons:

>

> 1. We are not a geographic cluster of illness

> 2. We are expensive to many influential industries, thus the resistance has

> been quite high

We have NOT been expensive because people are not getting care. We have not been

expensive because people are not getting legal help they need to sue.

So far, this issue has only been expensive to POOR PEOPLE AND PEOPLE

WHO HAVE BEEN MADE SICK BY IT, not to anybody else..

Many people are making lots of money on it.. By ignoring maintainance

that was done a few years ago because they know they can get away with

it NOW..

Remember the thread on that other list about how " mold is gold " ? To them....

> 3. There has been much misinformation marketed to decision makers

That is an understatement.. There has been very little accurate

information. Most of what they have been told is misinformation.

>

>

> 4. One of our primary problems when at our sickest is cognitive, thus it is

> difficult to articulate in a logical manner, making us appear nutty.

I won't argue with that. Obviously the people who really need help are

the least likely to get it.

> 5. There are not visible illnesses for the most part (like a broken leg)

> makin it difficult for others to understand

I don't think its that difficult once they start putting the dots

together about why its happening the way it is. Actually the press

accounts are very consistant. Which is not what you would expect if

the oppositions accusations of people simply trying to " get money "

were true.

But sick people do need money, and that should not raise suspicions.

They can't work and many many people have had their lives ruined by

this.

> 6. The manifestations of mold illness vary greatly from person to person

Actually, I think that the causes follow certain paths that make the

symptoms and issues that

people end up with consistant. Dr. Shoemaker and many others point

that out. Its complicated but clearly it fits in with other things we

are starting to know about fungi, toxicology, immunology, etc.

> 7. The physicians of the US have been told mold cannot cause these various

> illnesses

Its all been a big lie by a group of terribly amoral people who

obviously not only should not be allowed to get away with it but also

should not be in positions of responsibility.

> 8. Diagnostics are limited in determining that mold has caused these

> illnesses.

>

What we really need is much more, we need research to fit the many

things that are happening together and to figure out how to reverse

the effects of mold on people..

That may be difficult but eventually if we find the cures for mold

illness, we will probably be finding the cure for things that effect a

lot of people.. Mold effects a lot of people and a lot of those people

are being misdiagnosed as having other things.. I would guess..

> So...given that we sometimes look nutty because we can't stay focused to

> explain , and they are being told we are nutty with the fact that we can't

stay

> focused as " proof " , it's been a real uphill battle.

>

> But we are making headway and things are changing. Wish they would change

> today - as they should. But I feel fairly certain they will change

tomorrow.

>

> Sharon K

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'll just add that we exemplified Q's example... My neighbor got served with an

eviction notice after calling the health department about the mold. She had an

attorney respond, and it was rescinded, but...

This was a rental a block and a half from the Ocean in Los Angeles County - not

what one typically thinks of as an impoverished area.

~Haley

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

Sharon,

I hope that you are right about change. But my experience with this so

far has been that

this is a very difficult problem to get people to face.

Public officials don't want to deal with it. There is already a huge

shortage of affordable housing.

Bluntly, even poor people living in semi-blighted housing would often

prefer not to make things like

this an issue because THEY ARE OFTEN USED AS EXCUSES TO EVICT THEM AND

THEY KNOW IT.

Its a similar situation with schools. As long as this is framed as a

battle between maintainance and

teachers, etc. FOR A FINITE AMOUNT OF FUNDS.. the issue wont get solved..

We need to make it clear that it won't wait, that the cost on a

societal level is much more than avoiding it.. (and we have to make

that so- in reality, by dealing with it..getting people the care they

need.. so the cost is accurately seen.)

On 2/13/08, snk1955@... <snk1955@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Quackadillian,

>

> I understand what you are saying and I agree that we should not have to

work

> so hard to be heard and have a change made, when so many are ill today and

> so many will become ill tomorrow. We have had a tougher time than most for

> quite a few reasons:

>

> 1. We are not a geographic cluster of illness

> 2. We are expensive to many influential industries, thus the resistance has

> been quite high

We have NOT been expensive because people are not getting care. We have not

been

expensive because people are not getting legal help they need to sue.

So far, this issue has only been expensive to POOR PEOPLE AND PEOPLE

WHO HAVE BEEN MADE SICK BY IT, not to anybody else..

Many people are making lots of money on it.. By ignoring maintainance

that was done a few years ago because they know they can get away with

it NOW..

Remember the thread on that other list about how " mold is gold " ? To them....

> 3. There has been much misinformation marketed to decision makers

That is an understatement.. There has been very little accurate

information. Most of what they have been told is misinformation.

>

>

> 4. One of our primary problems when at our sickest is cognitive, thus it is

> difficult to articulate in a logical manner, making us appear nutty.

I won't argue with that. Obviously the people who really need help are

the least likely to get it.

> 5. There are not visible illnesses for the most part (like a broken leg)

> makin it difficult for others to understand

I don't think its that difficult once they start putting the dots

together about why its happening the way it is. Actually the press

accounts are very consistant. Which is not what you would expect if

the oppositions accusations of people simply trying to " get money "

were true.

But sick people do need money, and that should not raise suspicions.

They can't work and many many people have had their lives ruined by

this.

> 6. The manifestations of mold illness vary greatly from person to person

Actually, I think that the causes follow certain paths that make the

symptoms and issues that

people end up with consistant. Dr. Shoemaker and many others point

that out. Its complicated but clearly it fits in with other things we

are starting to know about fungi, toxicology, immunology, etc.

> 7. The physicians of the US have been told mold cannot cause these various

> illnesses

Its all been a big lie by a group of terribly amoral people who

obviously not only should not be allowed to get away with it but also

should not be in positions of responsibility.

> 8. Diagnostics are limited in determining that mold has caused these

> illnesses.

>

What we really need is much more, we need research to fit the many

things that are happening together and to figure out how to reverse

the effects of mold on people..

That may be difficult but eventually if we find the cures for mold

illness, we will probably be finding the cure for things that effect a

lot of people.. Mold effects a lot of people and a lot of those people

are being misdiagnosed as having other things.. I would guess..

> So...given that we sometimes look nutty because we can't stay focused to

> explain , and they are being told we are nutty with the fact that we can't

stay

> focused as " proof " , it's been a real uphill battle.

>

> But we are making headway and things are changing. Wish they would change

> today - as they should. But I feel fairly certain they will change

tomorrow.

>

> Sharon K

>

>

>

~Haley