Re: Can you save personal papers?

[Guest guest]

You might be able to get a free microwave on a recycling group

or pick one up cheap at a thrift store for microwaving papers. One

thing I would be afraid of is starting a fire. However, a woman at

the bank told me she pops her " new " money in the microwave to keep it

from sticking together for 5 seconds. Don't know how 5 seconds could

kill mold but any longer might burn the papers or damage them. Also,

I don't think freezing can kill all molds. Depending on the

conditions, freeezing is more like preserving mold for a later day,

like frozen food, I would think but I don't really know.

--- In , <brianc8452@...>

wrote:

>

> I read the discussion about microwaving contaminated items, but

that didn't sound good because then the microwave is contaminated.

>

> Is it possible to freeze personal papers or would that contaminate

the freezer?

>

[Guest guest]

Neither microwaving (dry) papers or freezing them will make a damn bit

of difference!

Seriously, the (pros) people who are trying to dry WET books out after

floods sometime microwave books,

to prevent the mold from growing on them in the first place. Once mold

has grown, I don't think it

is going to inactivate anything. The microwaving of wet books (in a

throwaway, cheap oven)

makes sense. Just don't use the oven afterward. And don't expect it to

make moldy books handleable

to the sensitive (but they probably would smell less)

Papers are less problematic than books because they are smaller.

Why don't you either laminate the (dry, of course)

personal papers inside of airtight plastic or put them in ziplock

plastic bags and not handle

them except inside of their plastic bags, when necessary?

According to the US Army biological warfare group at Ft. Dietrich, Md.

stachybotrys toxins cannot be inactivated

by heating to well over 500 degrees F. So for stachybotrys, which

likes books, microwave ovens are probably not going to helpful as much

as you would need them to be for that kind of mold GROWING on books.

Or for toxins deposited by stachybotrys, at all.

With books multiple wipedowns of the outer surfaces with ammonia

solution, and opening and fanning the books in a strong

wind...OUTDOORS.. with you upwind..is helpful.. WEAR GLOVES AND PPE

AND DO IT OUTDOORS...

This has to be done many times, in my experience. Its still not enough

to make them completely safe to read, just displayable..

On Feb 10, 2008 4:11 PM, <brianc8452@...> wrote:

>

> I read the discussion about microwaving contaminated items, but that didn't

> sound good because then the microwave is contaminated.

>

> Is it possible to freeze personal papers or would that contaminate the

> freezer?

>

[Guest guest]

What abourt gettting a CHEAP printer that has feeder and scan the papers

into PDF format doing this outside? The save the important papers on

to a thumb drive and

put in a safe deposit box? I do not think or I haven't figured out how to

do 2 sided pdf.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008, wrote:

> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:11:50 -0800 (PST) From:

> <brianc8452@...> Reply- To:

> Subject: [] Can you save

> personal papers?

>

> I read the discussion about microwaving contaminated items, but that didn't

sound good because then the microwave is contaminated.

>

> Is it possible to freeze personal papers or would that contaminate the

freezer?

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Be a better friend, newshound, and

> know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> What abourt gettting a CHEAP printer that has feeder and scan the

papers

> into PDF format doing this outside? The save the important papers on

> to a thumb drive and

> put in a safe deposit box? I do not think or I haven't figured out

how to

> do 2 sided pdf.

Sure sounds more business like than microwaving them or freezing them.

lol

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hah!

" With books multiple wipedowns of the outer surfaces with ammonia

solution, and opening and fanning the books in a strong

wind...OUTDOORS.. with you upwind..is helpful.. WEAR GLOVES AND PPE

AND DO IT OUTDOORS...

This has to be done many times, in my experience. Its still not enough

to make them completely safe to read, just displayable.. "

you must admit they are original ideas....

I have also wiped down books, both sides of each page. (I would not

use ammonia or you'll be gasping for breath) Any lightly scented

cleaning solution (clear) would help take the dust off...Keep rinsing

off the wash cloth...ammonia doesn't kill the mold anyhow...

I wouldn't fan them with a wind in my yard...I'd take them to the

nearest forest and fan them...

Then take a shower, throw out your clothes!

[Guest guest]

Llaci,

Every person is different. Books and personal belongings that are actually

growing mold on them are another story.

Most of what we owned looked normal, except for a coating of dust that

smelled

like mold. Everything smelled moldy,

everything was reactive, in varying amounts, or they would not have made me

sick.

On 2/11/08, llaci2003 <jjaksic@...> wrote:

>

> Hah!

>

> " With books multiple wipedowns of the outer surfaces with ammonia

> solution, and opening and fanning the books in a strong

> wind...OUTDOORS.. with you upwind..is helpful.. WEAR GLOVES AND PPE

> AND DO IT OUTDOORS...

>

> This has to be done many times, in my experience. Its still not enough

> to make them completely safe to read, just displayable.. "

>

> you must admit they are original ideas....

>

> I have also wiped down books, both sides of each page. (I would not

> use ammonia or you'll be gasping for breath) Any lightly scented

> cleaning solution (clear) would help take the dust off...Keep rinsing

> off the wash cloth...ammonia doesn't kill the mold anyhow...

>

> I wouldn't fan them with a wind in my yard...I'd take them to the

> nearest forest and fan them...

>

> Then take a shower, throw out your clothes!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nearly all the recommendations given so far are directed at killing

mold. Does killing mold, without removal of mold, stop the

reactions to books, papers and other items?

Despite the consistent presentation of information that dead mold

can still cause all effects of mold exposure, with the single

exception of infection, the drum beat for KILL KILL KILL

continues. There's got to be a reason. Maybe I and others are

wrong. So, those of you who only kill mold, please tell us if killing

without removal works.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Also, if people live where storage is cheap, perhaps tossing

everything you can, and then putting those things you NEED to keep,

uncleaned, (because cleaning them THEN is so dangerous) in multiple

sealed plastic bags, and then in boxes, sealed in some deep but dry

storage, for a few YEARS while you build your strength up to deal with

them is a good idea.

If its feasible.

[Guest guest]

yes and write with black or red markers " toxic chemicals/dust " on all

sides of boxes...so that our kids don't accidentally open them...and

then seal the boxes shut with masking tape....

>

[Guest guest]

Acids kill molds. And they should only be used by Pros inside the

home. For driveway and garages, they do sell Muriatic Acid which is

used to kill the mold in swimming pool maintenance. But there again,

it has to be used by someone who is very experienced.

So killing mold is not feasible for most of us. But wiping off the

spores/dust and rinsing off with a washcloth or vacuuming with a Hepa

and discarding filters frequently, are the only other ways I know of

to actually get rid of the mold spores. (if the dust smells moldy,

you can bet there are spores in it) Unless you get rid of them, they

can be activated over and over again and once again spread inside the

house.

[Guest guest]

build your strenght back up? what? I think I'd say to hell with the

papers or if I had to just deal with them than and there because your

allready damaged and your exposure was allready higher than what it

well be whole your in a copy shop coping these papers. I'd shake them

out outside first. but theres no way I would box up uncleaned

moldy/myco dust filled papers and leave them for some family member

down the line somewhere to open. even if you marked toxic dust on

there. do you know how many people think mold cant hurt you? even after

they have had a family member ill from it.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Also, if people live where storage is cheap, perhaps tossing

> everything you can, and then putting those things you NEED to keep,

> uncleaned, (because cleaning them THEN is so dangerous) in multiple

> sealed plastic bags, and then in boxes, sealed in some deep but dry

> storage, for a few YEARS while you build your strength up to deal with

> them is a good idea.

>

> If its feasible.

>

[Guest guest]

Have important papers xeroxed and originals discarded. Get rid of

other papers - you won't be able to use them anyway.

Barb

======================

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> Nearly all the recommendations given so far are directed at

killing

> mold. Does killing mold, without removal of mold, stop the

> reactions to books, papers and other items?

>

> Despite the consistent presentation of information that dead mold

> can still cause all effects of mold exposure, with the single

> exception of infection, the drum beat for KILL KILL KILL

> continues. There's got to be a reason. Maybe I and others are

> wrong. So, those of you who only kill mold, please tell us if

killing

> without removal works.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

The photocopier machine will become contaminated on the glass, cover etc.

Unless someone is willing to discharge a copier then this is only

spreading spores to other originals placed upon it.

A digistal camera could snap and it have them printed out that way also.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008, agasaya wrote:

> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:29:23 -0000

> From: agasaya <agasaya@...>

> Reply-

>

> Subject: [] Re: Can you save personal papers?

>

> Have important papers xeroxed and originals discarded. Get rid of

> other papers - you won't be able to use them anyway.

>

> Barb

> ======================

>

>

>>

>> Nearly all the recommendations given so far are directed at

> killing

>> mold. Does killing mold, without removal of mold, stop the

>> reactions to books, papers and other items?

>>

>> Despite the consistent presentation of information that dead mold

>> can still cause all effects of mold exposure, with the single

>> exception of infection, the drum beat for KILL KILL KILL

>> continues. There's got to be a reason. Maybe I and others are

>> wrong. So, those of you who only kill mold, please tell us if

> killing

>> without removal works.

>>

>> Carl Grimes

>> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

With some important papers, a copy will *not* do.

Such papers include birth certificates, social

security cards, divorce decrees, marriage certificates

and etc. Most papers can be replaced by the

distributing agency. Until they are replaced, one

should keep a copy of the original. Just keep them in

zip lock bags. One can buy the gallon sizes or larger

at Wal Mart. If it is a paper which does not need to

be an original, xerox is the best way.

Killing the mold will *not* help out health ills.

Killing only prevents mold from spreading and

multiplying. I have been without original important

papers in a situation where I *really* needed original

papers. It took weeks to get a copy.

I have tried living with *just* killing the mold...it

does not work.

I have my important papers doubled in a trash bag and

in a rubber maid container sealed away....when I feel

like I can deal with it, I will place mine in zip lock

bags to file away. Before I stored them, I took them

outside and aired them on my clothes line in the

sun...BUT, I do NOT feel the sun and airing made them

safe, just made me feel like they were cleaner...yes,

I hung my papers on the clothes line to sun. Kinda

crazy what us mold folks go through and will do! It

is like a real life horror movie and mold is the

monster after us.

--- agasaya <agasaya@...> wrote:

> Have important papers xeroxed and originals

> discarded. Get rid of

> other papers - you won't be able to use them anyway.

>

> Barb

> ======================

>

>

> >

> > Nearly all the recommendations given so far are

> directed at

> killing

> > mold. Does killing mold, without removal of mold,

> stop the

> > reactions to books, papers and other items?

> >

><SNIP>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Guest guest]

" Have important papers xeroxed and originals discarded. Get rid of

other papers - you won't be able to use them anyway "

this is true...I wiped off f & b of each page and put it in plastic;

however last month my husband needed to use one of those papers, and I

could smell the mold as soon as he entered the house....

better to get rid of them.....

[Guest guest]

Carl,

I appreciate your diligence to an area (removing the dead mold) that

most remediation processes skip over...removing the mold. Albeit

relatively new to the market, there are now products that not only

kill the mold, but biodegrade and consume the spore skeleton and even

leave a protective barrier behind, not to mention being completely

non-toxic and eco-friendly. I know because my company started using

it last year and it's amazing. I do not know how it would apply to

usage on books or papers as I have not completely tested in that

realm yet but my understanding is that others using it may have.

As this issue continues to build more focs is going to build on

better solutions. This is an area that I am trying to build in our

company here in Colorado, but be a part of the solution everywhere as

well.

Stan Crane

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> Nearly all the recommendations given so far are directed at killing

> mold. Does killing mold, without removal of mold, stop the

> reactions to books, papers and other items?

>

> Despite the consistent presentation of information that dead mold

> can still cause all effects of mold exposure, with the single

> exception of infection, the drum beat for KILL KILL KILL

> continues. There's got to be a reason. Maybe I and others are

> wrong. So, those of you who only kill mold, please tell us if

killing

> without removal works.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Before I left my moldy apt, I had an informal opportunity to have a

professional mold sample examiner

(a good one) look at wipes that had been done of furniture that had been

cleaned, still smelled, and we

were being forced to give away. It was completely spore-free.

I think that we are all talking about a number of different things here.

There are different kinds of reactivity.

(at least I know I have many different kinds of reactions to mold and MVOCs

when I am exposed to them)

It would be useful to try to quantify these reactions and then try to

scientifically analyze the source material that was causing them to see what

was there.

Its my understanding that people are more sensitive than existing tests in

some respects, people should be aware of that. Also, its probable that there

are interactions going on between different trigger substances.

Some of the triggers/toxins/allergens/mvocs/contaminants may still be

undiscovered, chemically.

On 2/11/08, llaci2003 <jjaksic@...> wrote:

>

> " Have important papers xeroxed and originals discarded. Get rid of

> other papers - you won't be able to use them anyway "

>

> this is true...I wiped off f & b of each page and put it in plastic;

> however last month my husband needed to use one of those papers, and I

> could smell the mold as soon as he entered the house....

>

> better to get rid of them.....

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Stan,

Many molds produce toxins that these biocides don't deactivate. They

may represent

a highly profitable goo to many people, but in my opinion, this approach usually

fails to address a number of important issues that may quite possibly doom many

of these biocide application efforts to fail if the goal of the visit

is to make an unsafe

building safe. I don't know if that is why people hire you, but it should be.

Many molds that produce spores also produce mycotoxins, such as the

trichothecene mycotoxins produced by stachybotrys chartarum which

according to the US Army, require

temperatures of 1500 degrees to deactivate, or immersion in a very

strong solution of bleach

for one hour.

(They, the US Army Chemical Warfare unit at Ft. Dietrich, Md, suggest as an

alternative PHYSICAL REMOVAL, using soap and water and scrubbing.. )

Spores seem to be counted because of the convenience of doing it,

relative to toxin testing

or DNA testing, even though the information received is far less useful.

According to the EPA, spore sampling is more for detection of possible

mold contamination, because of the aforementioned toxicity. They

emphasize that absence of spores does not prove absence of fungal

contamination or even a places safety at the moment of sampling.

Research has repeatedly shown that mycotoxins and spores are not

necessarily connected.

Some mycotoxins are chemicals that are extremely durable, once created.

Many of those same mycotoxins, like spores, can be carried into the lungs.

Studies have shown that a lot of damage is done by highly respirable

fungal fragments carrying mycotoxins. Those fungal fragments are the

product of slow disintegration of past mold growth such as is often

found in hidden cavities inside of walls.

From several studies that I have read, some of the most toxic

trichothecene mycotoxins are water soluable

(this is not very well known research but its out there, search for

water soluble macrocyclic trichothecene and polysaccharide matrix) and

this implies (according to the expert on the subject) that under some

circumstances involving

only water and mold and building cavities that toxins within a

structure can become concentrated

at points within those buildings structure that are physically removed

from areas of mold growth

by water, and that they can be later subject to airflow within a

building and water evaporation and condensation.

Also, stachybotrys rarely shows up on spore tests unless its dying.

(search for biomechanics stachybotrys on PubMed for ref)

What this says to me is that any mold remediation effort on a badly

contaminated building that has seen extended periods of high humidity

inside its walls needs to make a serious and comprehensive effort to

physically remove dust and clean and wash the entire space where mold

may be hidden, especially cavities within walls, attics, basements,

subfloor cavities.. or there are quite probably going to be lasting

problems.

That may not be what a client wants to hear, but its the truth.

On 2/12/08, cleanenvironmentpro <ceo@...> wrote:

> I appreciate your diligence to an area (removing the dead mold) that

> most remediation processes skip over...removing the mold. Albeit

> relatively new to the market, there are now products that not only

> kill the mold, but biodegrade and consume the spore skeleton and even

> leave a protective barrier behind, not to mention being completely

> non-toxic and eco-friendly.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I know because my company started using

> it last year and it's amazing. I do not know how it would apply to

> usage on books or papers as I have not completely tested in that

> realm yet but my understanding is that others using it may have.

>

> As this issue continues to build more focs is going to build on

> better solutions. This is an area that I am trying to build in our

> company here in Colorado, but be a part of the solution everywhere as

> well.

>

> Stan Crane

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is what a bunch of salesmen were saying at a home show I went to

this weekend but after trying so many products which made such

claims, I can't buy it. Show me scientific experimental data that was

done over a course of years and I might buy it. I know I am coming

across hard but after being a part of the business world in the past,

I know a sales pitch when I hear one.

> >

> > Nearly all the recommendations given so far are directed at

killing

> > mold. Does killing mold, without removal of mold, stop the

> > reactions to books, papers and other items?

> >

> > Despite the consistent presentation of information that dead mold

> > can still cause all effects of mold exposure, with the single

> > exception of infection, the drum beat for KILL KILL KILL

> > continues. There's got to be a reason. Maybe I and others are

> > wrong. So, those of you who only kill mold, please tell us if

> killing

> > without removal works.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Stan,

I disagree with some of your statements and would like to provide

additional clarification for those on this group who are new to

figuring out mold.

1. " ...not only kill the mold, but biodegrade... "

If it kills it must be registered with the EPA under FIFRA

law. It will have an EPA registration number. The required

" label " is more than an sticker on the container identifying

the product. It will also have directions about how to use it

and where to use it. Usually if a use or technique is not

noted, it is ILLEGAL to use that technique. For example,

the only anti-microbials that can be legally used in forced

air ducting will specifically say so on the label. If the

" label " doesn't say " forced air ducting " then it isn't legal. It

may even be further limited to " wiping, not spraying or

fogging. "

Please define " biodegrade. " Does it mean denature? At a

conference last week a vendor said their product makes

mold " inert. " When I asked him to define " inert " he was at

a loss. When I asked if he meant " denature " he asked me

what " denature " means. When I explained, he responded

with " mine is better because it drives a killer stake

through the heart of the mold. " (And all this time I thought

mold was " heartless " ). Terminology is absolutely

important.

2. " ... consume the spore skeleton... "

Spores don't have a " skeleton, " in either the internal bone

sense like people or the hard external shell sense like

some bugs (exoskeleton). Even if they did, that isn't what

must be absent from the environment to stop exposure

problems.

The spore, hyphae and cell wall contain or generate the

components that trigger reactions in people. Such things

as proteins, enzymes, glucans, mycotoxins, proteinases,

MVOCs plus others yet to be discovered. If all of these

are not absent or otherwise removed then the mold is still

of its own " nature " and is not " denatured. " I know of no

one who has tried to detect any of these components

after use of their product. All they have detected is " dead

or alive. "

If I am wrong, show me the independent tests.

3. " ...and even leave a protective barrier behind,... "

Many products provide a protective barrier, including

ordinary paint - UNTIL a layer of dust, dampness or a film

of biological components (biofilm) accumulates on it

removing if from contact with the " deadly coating. " Then

the mold will eat the food and grow into colonies if there is

sufficient dampness. (There are appropriate uses of and

times for coatings).

A colleague has an aquarium container which he keeps at

elevated humidity. He has inserted wood and sheetrock

coated with the latest & greatest products to see what

happens. The longest any of them have lasted, including

" Anabec-type " products, is about 3 weeks. Not only does

the mold grow, but it starts eating the coating.

Think of it this way. If you pile enough dirt on a bed of

nails, you will sleep quite comfortably.

Convince me with independent tests, not marketing materials.

4. " ... completely non-toxic and eco-friendly. "

Nothing is " completely non-toxic, " not even water. If it is

EPA registered it is illegal to make that comment or

others such as the product is " safe. " Toxicity is not part of

the registration process, except as claimed by the

manufacturer (without independent verification). Eco-

friendly I can't comment on because the criteria is under

dispute. For example, the sanitary wipes to disinfect

hands is probably the most UN-friendly product for both

the environment and people.

5. Your response does not address my question: When your product

is used and the mold is not removed, do mold reactive people stop

reacting?

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have yet to see ANY independant

evidence of any product meeting these claims. I have yet to see any

of them disprove the guidance of the Bioaersols book, among others.

Usually, what I hear is how mold reactive people have great difficulty

with these products themselves, even if the mold is removed.

Like I said before, convince me with the independent tests. But even

better, I implore anyone on this list who has been severely impacted

by mold to correct me if I am wrong about these types of products.

Likewise, let me hear from those who react badly to the " coatings "

that are supposed to solve the problem with mold.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> I appreciate your diligence to an area (removing the dead mold) that

> most remediation processes skip over...removing the mold. Albeit

> relatively new to the market, there are now products that not only

> kill the mold, but biodegrade and consume the spore skeleton and even

> leave a protective barrier behind, not to mention being completely

> non-toxic and eco-friendly. I know because my company started using

> it last year and it's amazing. I do not know how it would apply to

> usage on books or papers as I have not completely tested in that

> realm yet but my understanding is that others using it may have.

>

> As this issue continues to build more focs is going to build on

> better solutions. This is an area that I am trying to build in our

> company here in Colorado, but be a part of the solution everywhere as

> well.

>

> Stan Crane

>

>

>

> >

> > Nearly all the recommendations given so far are directed at killing

> > mold. Does killing mold, without removal of mold, stop the

> > reactions to books, papers and other items?

> >

> > Despite the consistent presentation of information that dead mold

> > can still cause all effects of mold exposure, with the single

> > exception of infection, the drum beat for KILL KILL KILL

> > continues. There's got to be a reason. Maybe I and others are

> > wrong. So, those of you who only kill mold, please tell us if

> killing

> > without removal works.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I thought this was of interest for us who like it simple.

http://www.envirochex.com/Admin/Register.htm

[Guest guest]

in my quest to become paperless and have interesting articles from

magazines, newspapers, etc stored on my computer, i can suggest using

a scanner and having a software called OmniPage installed. you scan in

the hardcopy, then save the file as a PDF. love it love it love it.

>

>

> > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:11:50 -0800 (PST) From:

> > <brianc8452@...> Reply- To:

> > Subject: [] Can you save

> > personal papers?

> >

> > I read the discussion about microwaving contaminated items, but

that didn't sound good because then the microwave is contaminated.

> >

> > Is it possible to freeze personal papers or would that contaminate

the freezer?