Re: Re: Recommended article - Cassandra and Apollo (Maxine Aston)

[Guest guest]

Becky Hall wrote:

> She looks to be pretty up on this. I am going to one of her

> Cassandra workshops next week. Can't wait, and sort of nervous about

> it! Will let you know how it goes.

Oh, Becky! Please approach Aston and the whole CADD/ " Cassandra " thing

with serious skepticism!

...With an " open mind " , of course, but do *be careful* - she and CADD

are nothing if not controversial. Do your homework, your " due

diligence " *before* you spend any money or effort!

FWIW: personally, I don't " buy " any of it. That's based on a long

history with her and her ideas well *before* she acquired prominence

(and notoriety).

- Bill AS, retired geneticist ...and very skeptical

>

>>

>> Hi all......

>>

>> " Cassandra Syndrome " has been brought up a fair amount here. As I

>> have been working on my GCA Wiki website for resources, I came

>> across this one article by Maxine Aston (noted author of " Aspergers

>> In Love " among other books she has written) which gives a great

>> explanation of what " Cassandra Syndrome " is.

[ snip ]

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

I keep thinking as I read these articles and posts that I really need to

ask my (mostly) NT boyfriend if he is experiencing the same phenomenon

in his relationship with an AS woman (yours truly). I really really

don't think he would say yes - I worry more than he does about whether I

am being selfish, unfair to him, too dependent on him to help me cope

with the world....

And I also look back to my marriage with a (supposedly?) NT man, in

which I could definitely identify with Cassandra. So as others have

pointed out, to the extent that an actual interpersonal dynamic is

described, it is not in any way peculiar to, much less typical of, NT's

married to Aspers.

Andromeda

[Guest guest]

> There is nothing unique to Aspergers about being in a relationship where you

experience depression and other symptoms of isolation, or where the relationship

changes you. That, to me, is all that is being described. We certainly don't

need attribution to Greek gods to dress it up; I'm pretty sure it happens in

almost every relationship on the planet where there is dysfunction or serious

incompatibility of any sort.

I agree, . However, as with any labeled 'diagnosis', it may

provide those who identify with a sense of community with others who are

experiencing similar challenges. That yearning for identity, support,

and a label that explains one's life struggles (the " I'm not crazy after

all! " moment) should be a familiar one here, I would think.

> I am not saying that to minimize its impact or its hurt, simply to point out

that throwing the Cassandra label on it (which has not been used in the context

of anything but Aspergers relationships to my knowledge) is like the tail

wagging the dog. And the irony to me, is that it is probably the rare case of

the dysfunctional mixed neurological relationship where the " NT " female is not

" believed " about the difficulties she experiences in her relationship. From

being on this list for many years, not to mention 20 plus years as divorce

attorney, it seems equally if not more common that the female has family and

friends that not only believe there are issues in the relationship, but are

urging the female to leave the marriage or relationship with her partner. If

there is anything being disbelieved, it is often that there could be a) love of

that person in spite of their incompatibilities, and true desire, rather than

economic necessity or feelings of helplessness, causing the person to stay in

the marriage.

I agree that the female with family and support networks is probably

closer to the norm (thank heavens!). However, the women I've

encountered who perceive that they are not " believed " do exist and may

not have these social resources.

Worse yet, very often the non-believers have a bias in favor of the

individual (often a suspected Aspie male) charged as being the

'dysfunctional' partner. Seriously, unless his mother is very

open-minded and knowledgeable about ASDs, she may be unlikely to welcome

any feedback with respect to her only son being incapable of holding up

his end of a relationship as husband/provider/parent, being verbally

abusive, having meltdowns reminiscent of a child's tantrums, or

withholding affection.

Another example cited by these women is the (suspected Aspie male)

partner who presents very 'normal' in the presence of a therapist,

thereby compromising her credibility when she relates communication

problems in the relationship attributable to her partner.

Lots of other examples... these seem to be the most common ones though.

> I could be wrong, but I also don't believe I've heard Aston or others use

" Cassandra " to refer to a male suffering from those alleged symptoms. If I am

correct it is all the more reason to believe that it is an agendized,

propogandistic term to give " NT " females a source of relief-inspiring

understanding about their " AS " male partners.

I agree with you, although I probably wouldn't go so far as to call it

an agenda. Instead, I think they embrace the term because it helps

explain their shared struggles and gives them a sense of community with

others who truly understand. Kind of like how the siren call of

religion works for some people. Or Aspie support groups beckon to

Aspies. Pick any label, and there's probably a people-just-like-us

support resource to meet that need.

Unfortunately, suffering males do seem to get left out of the Cassandra

Club. In my experience, people who suffer (from whatever) tend to focus

on their own struggles and those of others who mirror their own

experiences. And since the forums where Cassandra is a popular topic

are almost exclusively female, that's where the focus stays. Thus, a

stereotype is born.

My late husband was a classic Cassandra, FWIW. It's one of the reasons

why he's my late husband.

> (Use of quotes is my norm these days as it bothers me that when a partner is

diagnosed " AS " the other partner who is having difficulties is automatically in

many cases self-diagnosed as " NT " just because they are so different from their

partner. I don't think anyone has yet created criteria to diagnose someone as

" NT " and I personally believe that many spouses of AS persons are undiagnosed

AS.)

I believe the same, . However, I'm willing to take people at

their word when they identify as X or Y, knowing personally what it's

like to have my own diagnosis challenged by Aspies who regard me as " too

NT " to be one of them.

> Anyway it reminds me that years ago I used to volunteer every other weekend

for an organization locally that helped domestic violence victims. Then one day

I came to understand that they did not believe men could ever be domestic

violence victims. They openly admitted, THEIR definition was that by virtue of

historic power imbalance in heterosexual relationships only women could be

victims. I think there's a little of that going on in calling something that is

born of isolation and depression in any relationship, by a clever name when it

is applied to particular ones.

Yep. We humans seem to love to define and categorize things. Which

isn't such a bad thing, except for all the shades of gray examples that

don't neatly fit into those little boxes. Perhaps the boxes just need

to be bigger and have a shape that accommodates more options.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

> There is nothing unique to Aspergers about being in a relationship where you

experience depression and other symptoms of isolation, or where therelationship

changes you. That, to me, is all that is being described. We certainly don't

need attribution to Greek gods to dress it up; I'm pretty sure it happens in

almost every relationship on the planet where there is dysfunction or serious

incompatibility of any sort.

I agree, . However, as with any labeled 'diagnosis', it may

provide those who identify with a sense of community with others who are

experiencing similar challenges. That yearning for identity, support,

and a label that explains one's life struggles (the " I'm not crazy after

all! " moment) should be a familiar one here, I would think.

> I am not saying that to minimize its impact or its hurt, simply to point out

that throwing the Cassandra label on it (which has not been used inthe context

of anything but Aspergers relationships to my knowledge) is like the tail

wagging the dog. And the irony to me, is that it is probably the rare case of

the dysfunctional mixed neurological relationship where the " NT " female is not

" believed " about the difficulties she experiences in her relationship. From

being on this list for many years, not to mention 20 plus years as divorce

attorney, it seems equally if not more common that the female has family and

friends that not only believe there are issues in the relationship, but are

urging the female to leave the marriage or relationship with her partner. If

there is anything being disbelieved, it is often that there could be a) love of

that person in spite of their incompatibilities, and true desire, rather than

economic necessity or feelings of helplessness, causing the per

son to stay in the marriage.

I agree that the female with family and support networks is probably

closer to the norm (thank heavens!). However, the women I've

encountered who perceive that they are not " believed " do exist and may

not have these social resources.

Worse yet, very often the non-believers have a bias in favor of the

individual (often a suspected Aspie male) charged as being the

'dysfunctional' partner. Seriously, unless his mother is very

open-minded and knowledgeable about ASDs, she may be unlikely to welcome

any feedback with respect to her only son being incapable of holding up

his end of a relationship as husband/provider/parent, being verbally

abusive, having meltdowns reminiscent of a child's tantrums, or

withholding affection.

Another example cited by these women is the (suspected Aspie male)

partner who presents very 'normal' in the presence of a therapist,

thereby compromising her credibility when she relates communication

problems in the relationship attributable to her partner.

Lots of other examples... these seem to be the most common ones though.

> I could be wrong, but I also don't believe I've heard Aston or others use

" Cassandra " to refer to a male suffering from those alleged symptoms. If I am

correct it is all the more reason to believe that it is an agendized,

propogandistic term to give " NT " females a source of relief-inspiring

understanding about their " AS " male partners.

I agree with you, although I probably wouldn't go so far as to call it

an agenda. Instead, I think they embrace the term because it helps

explain their shared struggles and gives them a sense of community with

others who truly understand. Kind of like how the siren call of

religion works for some people. Or Aspie support groups beckon to

Aspies. Pick any label, and there's probably a people-just-like-us

support resource to meet that need.

Unfortunately, suffering males do seem to get left out of the Cassandra

Club. In my experience, people who suffer (from whatever) tend to focus

on their own struggles and those of others who mirror their own

experiences. And since the forums where Cassandra is a popular topic

are almost exclusively female, that's where the focus stays. Thus, a

stereotype is born.

My late husband was a classic Cassandra, FWIW. It's one of the reasons

why he's my late husband.

> (Use of quotes is my norm these days as it bothers me that when a partner is

diagnosed " AS " the other partner who is having difficulties is automatically in

many cases self-diagnosed as " NT " just because they are so different from their

partner. I don't think anyone has yet created criteria to diagnose someone as

" NT " and I personally believe that many spouses of AS persons are undiagnosed

AS.)

I believe the same, . However, I'm willing to take people at

their word when they identify as X or Y, knowing personally what it's

like to have my own diagnosis challenged by Aspies who regard me as " too

NT " to be one of them.

> Anyway it reminds me that years ago I used to volunteer every other weekend

for an organization locally that helped domestic violence victims. Then one day

I came to understand that they did not believe men could ever be domestic

violence victims. They openly admitted, THEIR definition was that by virtue of

historic power imbalance in heterosexual relationships only women could be

victims. I think there's a little of that going on in calling something that is

born of isolation and depression in any relationship, by a clever name when it

is applied to particular ones.

Yep. We humans seem to love to define and categorize things. Which

isn't such a bad thing, except for all the shades of gray examples that

don't neatly fit into those little boxes. Perhaps the boxes just need

to be bigger and have a shape that accommodates more options.

Best,

~CJ