Re: : What does hurt look like?

[Guest guest]

I'm dealing with a big one right now ... the way my soon to ex treated, and is

still treating me and the kids.

I'm tired of repeating the details, but there's a big mess going on now about

two events coming up, and who gets to attend. stbx is being rigidly clueless,

and completely lacking in understanding of anyone else, including the kids.

I don't use the word " forgive " . To me, it sounds too much like " absolution " --

that I am telling them it was ok to act like a jerk, I thought about it and

don't mind.

Instead, I seek explanations. I look for the reasons why someone acted the way

they did, and try to figure out the path they took to the actions they took.

Sometimes, when I understand, I'll accept what they did as understandable, but

wrong. As I often say to my kids, An explanation is not an excuse. Just because

I can see why you did something does not make what you did right.

In other cases, though I can follow the logic path, the initial reasons don't

make sense. A therapist friend of mine once told me that most insane people make

perfectly sensible decisions, they just start from faulty premises. If stbx

thinks I spend all my waking hours thinking of ways to hurt him, this may

explain why he's always fighting against me -- but he's wrong. [i'm too busy

trying to earn an income and being a good parent to think of him except when I

have no choice.]

I can accept that stbx is mentally ill, that he resents me because of his belief

that I have power over him, that I'm capable of twisting the minds of everyone

to be against him. I can see that these ideas cause him to behave the way he

does. I can see that he believes I drove him to cheat on me.

His actions are still hurtful, and his premises are wrong. I don't hold a grudge

against him, I don't hurt him in retaliation, but neither can I accept his

presence in my life.

>

>

>

> Re: : What does " hurt " look like?

>

> Hope this definition helps with the understanding. Anyone else here

> suffered serious hurts in the past which they still can't forgive? I'm

> aware that holding grudges is quite a common Aspie issue.

>

>

> Well.... I have a different definition of 'forgive' than what others seem to

have. I am perfectly willing and ready to forgive serious hurts. However until

the person behaves in a way that shows they are sorry, discontinues the

behavior, and acknowledges that what they did was wrong, I choose not to be

around them nor continue a relationship with them. In my mind this is common

sense. As well as for those who are biblically inclined it is biblical.

" Forgive " does not mean " pretend something didn't happen " , " deny something

happened " , " just get over it " , or any of a number of other things I have had

thrown at me despite the serious nature of hurts committed and the long standing

history of those committing them.

>

> And for the sake of clarity. I would define " serious hurts " as something that

causes damage to my life (or my children's lives or the lives of those close to

me). Things such as abuse, mean gossip, support of someone who has done/is doing

a serious hurt, attempts to get me to 'be ok with' someone who committed a

serious hurt and is not sorry or changing, racism, prejudice, and such like.

>

> Jennie AS -doesn't hold grudges but isn't stupid. Trust is earned. Respect is

earned. Oh.... and an above average detail oriented memory does not equal grudge

holding.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Anyone else here suffered serious hurts in the past which they still can't

forgive?

Not really, although those hurts have certainly changed me. Sometimes

to the point of making me hypervigilent about avoiding any future

occurrences of the same, even with people I have yet to meet.

Unfortunately, I only hurt myself and limit my opportunities when I

shift into this self-protective mode.

I've found that trying to deconstruct and understand why the person (who

inflicted the hurt) did what they did can be very helpful in processing

the pain, as it tempers any tendency to view the incident in

black-and-white terms and through a lens of perceived malice on the part

of the person.

> I'm aware that holding grudges is quite a common Aspie issue.

It seems to be common among those who tend to perseverate, whether they

are AS or NT.

Those who suffer from OCD seem to struggle with perseveration the most,

I've noticed. Which makes sense, given how OCD works.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

The posts on hurt, and how to deal with it, is fascinating for me at the present time; over the past four months I have been hounded several times a day by a person with severe OCD, and this person once held the post I have now, heading up a national charity. The person who used to do my work, was asked to step down (not by me, but a Committee) due to being difficult to work with, and they have been watching our work closely ever since. Recently, this person decided to start a rumour in print and public, about our (mainly my) use of charity funds (all falsehoods) resulting in months of charity legislature investigation and loss of services for my clients because my volunteers and my

co-workers were unable to deal with the constant pressure and many of them left. I've spent the months placating all parties, including our sponsors, by being very nice and letting go of hurt, trying to show dignity, at the cost of swallowing my own very valid arguments that would have worked in other situations, but didnt wash at all with my clients, who mostly have OCD, and are living with tourette syndrome, aspergers and ASD. Plant an idea in their heads, and it burns and burns. As the person in charge, I have a duty of care to my clients, but also to the individual concerned, who has serious neurological issues; and who, being a well known person in Tourette syndrome circles, the damage to our reputation as a caring charity have been even worse if I had reacted in kind. The press would have had

a field day. Hence, any anger I wanted to direct at this individual would be held up as a score. I took the route of publishing the truths, and regaining confidence of our clients piece by piece, bit by bit. No threats or sueing, just fighting each defamation with evidence of truth. And kindess. In order not to build up chinese whisper falsehoods, and to overcome the stress of my peers, I have had to follow each attack (which were consistent, the same criticism over and over again) with repeated calm statements, no anger, and keeping it simple. I have had to come home and belt the feathers out of a few pillows, as I cant pass on my frustration to Ian at home. And now, I have lost my job because whilst fighting all the oncomers, I havent been able to retain my own funding. My salary fund was spent on defending the case, and there is no money for me this month or next. And

as I need to work, I now have to leave. So in a way, that person has won, as he has driven me out, in that respect. In the end, there has been a lot of good, because I have set up social media guidelines for our workers, training for peers in order to know when someone should be told information or not, and which hat to wear when in Committee.... and published all our funding and activities in a forum and so bulletproofed us from that person and their ilk in the future. They have tried to keep on with their hatred, but its good now, because people are defending the charity, defending me, and asking that person to explain why they are saying what they are saying. The person said they believed what they were saying was true, even when confronted with reality. They couldnt snap out of it. I met with the

person the other week in mediation, and the individual admitted their OCD was so strong they didnt see the irrationality or even comprehend that they were hurting me and the charity. All that mattered was saying their piece and being listened to, gaining agreement. The person could not say sorry, they were genuinely pained at the thought. I left that meeting with the knowledge that they would never move on, so I had to. I am worn out with dealing with continued nastiness, because it is unfair and I simply cant move on inside. I might be in the clear and we have got through the other side, but I am damaged. . The other element of the subject of overcoming hurts, is that Ian, as part of his own OCD and Aspieness, cant let go or forget, let alone forgive. Ah, that

differentation between forgive and forget. Ian remembers everything that matters to him - whether that be the entire first Star Trek episode, or something that happened when he was two years old, or most probably, being snubbed, ignored, laughed at, dismissed, and called stupid. Being ignored is a big one for Ian. He will move heaven and earth to revenge himself for being ignored - not just overlooked, but ignored when giving advice, or asking someone not to do something, or not being given credit for his actions. Its these instances where he cannot forget, and never forgive. In terms of my situation at work, I see a pattern - Ian would be just to same to whoever took his place, if he had been ousted from his post. I havent told him about my work situation because he would fixate on it himself, and even take the other side. Plus, he has 53 years of other fixations to go on with, and these surface

constantly so he doesnt deserve one of mine, too. Sometimes, people do things that they are compelled to do and sometimes that isnt intended to be personal, even if it impacts on you personally. Its all about their driving passions. If we tell someone that we prefer them not to do something and they still do it, how do you deal with that? How not to let the poison seep in? Or how do you reject that poison - by allowing yourself to move on? Surely that means letting the other person off the hook? But then, nothing changes, and if you live with that culture, it becomes an acceptable way of living. By being nice to my own adversary, I damaged myself, but it was purely to limit the damage to the charity and the people within it. Yet I managed to explain and support my own case, in public, and through the authorities, but it wasnt ideal for me. I would have loved to have

thumped that person on the nose. I have learnt from Ian that he chooses to live with a set of past hurts because he feels it justifies his behaviours at the time. If his actions impact on me, I tell him how I 'see' things from my point of view, so even if he cant understand why I feel hurt, he knows that I am. And we keep that dialogue going, if Ian unwittingly walks over my needs or feelings, I always explain (calmly) how I feel. Sometimes that is acknowledged, often it is greeted with an 'eh?' of incomprehension. By the way, , I still dont get your posts and only read them when others reply, its been like this for a while - I am trying to alter my settings so that my email spam doesnt trash all emails from your neck of the woods. Thanks for reading this far.

I dont often bare my soul, but this one is very relevant to me at the moment. Judy B, getting a hard shell. To: aspires-relationships Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2012, 13:04 Subject: Re: : What does "hurt" look

like? > Instead, I seek explanations. I look for the reasons why someone acted the way they did, and try to figure out the path they took to the actions they took. Sometimes, when I understand, I'll accept what they did as understandable, but wrong. As I often say to my kids, An explanation is not an excuse. Just because I can see why you did something does not make what you did right.Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at too with similar situations. I find it calming, as it helps to make sense of my experience.> In other cases, though I can follow the logic path, the initial reasons don't make sense. A therapist friend of mine once told me that most insane people make perfectly sensible decisions, they just start from faulty premises.I've found that sometimes the initial reasons don't make sense because I don't have all of the

information, and thus cannot construct a complete picture.Sometimes there are outside pressures (real or perceived) on the person who (usually inadvertently) inflicted the hurt, pressures that may have driven them to take the path of expediency/self-interest. A path they will probably rationalize (to themselves and to you) to avoid the discomfort of cognitive dissonance with respect to their self-image and actual behavior.In an ideal situation, I will be able to access the missing information at some point so that I can fill in the blanks. Usually though, it doesn't happen that way and I need to make peace with knowing that I will probably never know the complete story. Very frustrating....> His actions are still hurtful, and his premises are wrong. I don't hold a grudge against him, I don't hurt him in retaliation, but neither can I accept his presence in my

life.I think that's a great way to approach the issue, Liz. The less emotional energy invested, the better.Best,~CJ------------------------------------ "We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony.Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.We all contribute to the song of life." ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com

[Guest guest]

, I understand what you are saying and from personal experience I can say that letting go of, or forgiving, is freeing. When I carried around my hurt and pain I was only hurting myself far more that the original pain which I perceived to have been dealt in the first place. I now that you have suffered a great hurt which has caused you to drastically change the way you live, i.e. places you will not go. But by holing onto that hurt you are allowing it to control your life. If you could let it go you could be free again. In my experience most of the pain I have experienced has been because of my reaction to the experience and not from the experience it’s self. But it is hard work to change our perspective and to move through to a place where we choose not to let the things that have been done to us to define our lives. An example of this from my life is this. My daughter (she is 31 year old now) who I believe is on the spectrum but who has not been diagnoses as such, she was diagnosed as having Borderline Personality Disorder, has done some really nasty things to me over the years. Some of them hurt me emotionally so much that I considered disowning her because I just couldn’t stand the constant pain any more. And in an emotional way I did. I decided that she could only hurt me if I allowed her to, so I emotionally pulled back and did not engage her, or worry about her reactions etc. If she called and I found her call to be causing me any stress I would end the call. If we made plans to see each other I never considered it a real date until we were together, i.e. I did not attach myself emotionally or have any expectations. I take very day one at a time and live as though tomorrow she may decide on a whim that I am no longer in her life and I no longer get to see my granddaughter. And what came out of my detaching and letting go is I found peace. And our relationship has changed in very good ways. The more I detach and am expectation free the better our relationship is and the better I feel. But I never would have this peace if I kept carrying around my hurt, blame, bitterness, etc. over things done in the past. The past is over and done with it can only hurt me now if I let it and I want to be happy. So as much as I understand your perspective of hurt me once shame on you, hurt me twice shame on me, yes learn from the experience but find a way to not carry the pain from it around with you or let it define how you live your life. And the real lesson to learn is to let it go and live your life in a more emotionally healthy way like setting personal boundaries, communicating effectively with those you care about, how to resolve conflict, etc. Learn to accept that crap happens but so do wonderful things, if you are going to focus on something let it be the memories that make you happiest but mostly live in the moment and not the past. I try to live in the moment as much as possible because there are plenty of things in my past I certainly don’t want to relive. Hope that made sense I feel like I’m rambling. Cheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of EyreSent: May-09-12 10:37 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: : What does " hurt " look like? On Wed, 9 May 2012 at 21:04:41 -0700, suggested:> Define hurt from your perspective. Injury many times is defined under " some " laws, depending where one lives as assault or bodily harm to a person.. What does " hurt " look like to you? Is it words that hurt you and if so, how? Is it more than words? Help us to understand.Hi . Thanks for the suggestion.OK, so discounting the more obvious physical manifestations of hurt like bumping my head on the table when I try to crawl out from under it after retrieving something I dropped, or hitting my finger with the hammer instead of the nail, my perception of hurt is when someone deliberately commits some act that I've told them I don't want them to do, and which consequently causes my personal lifestyle to be degraded.This is the kind of hurt that I find it hard to forgive.Maybe, when they did these things, they didn't aappreciate how it would hurt, and maybe they thought they were doing the right thing at the time, but the fact that they knew my opinion before they did these things, and still chose to ignore me and do them anyway, is what constitutes an unforgiveable hurt to me.So I'm not just talking about forgiving myself for bumping my head, nor am I just talking about forgiving others for saying hurtful words or slurs about me, I'm talking about people committing deliberate acts against my will; acts which have had far-reaching life-affecting bad consequences for me.Of course there are plenty of other lesser kinds of hurt that we're likely to suffer from time to time, and many of these can and should be forgiven, but I've chosen here to define the more severe kinds that have affected my own life and which are the source of long-term grudges that I continue to hold.Hope this definition helps with the understanding. Anyone else here suffered serious hurts in the past which they still can't forgive? I'm aware that holding grudges is quite a common Aspie issue.

[Guest guest]

Hi Judy, Many years ago I went t though something very similar what I was the chair or a society and it was awful. I really feel for you! You seem like such a lovely woman who is the last person who deserves to be treated so badly. My situation was a bit different but the character assassination was the same. Before I was the chair of the society I had been sexually assaulted by one of the well respected members. I managed to get away from him before he got too far but I was very emotionally damaged by it anyway. What made it worse was that the two women members I told about it said I must have misunderstood because he was such a pillar of the community he would never do such a thing. So I stuffed it away but felt dirty, distrustful, ashamed, and like I couldn’t trust my own opinions anymore. Until a few years later when I was on the board I was approached by a woman who said the same thing had happened to her so she did some digging on this fellow and found out he had raped his 16 year old daughter, got her pregnant, and spent time in jail for it. She asked me to do something about him in our community. So I held a special board meeting to discuss the matter and everyone came with their knives out and all were pointed at me. How could I impeach this good man’s name. Etc. And just like in your case even the evidence did not change their opinion and I was vilified. Long story short we made an agreement with Mr. X that he could attend the festival but could not touch anyone under the age of consent. Well he gave a massage to a 17 year old with her naked and he came out of the massage room with a huge grin on his face tucking his shirt on as he walked towards me staring me in the eye the entire time. I called the board together and they concurred he needed to go and he was escorted off of the property. But the damage to my reputation was already done and to this day there are people who hate me because they believe the rumors instead of the truth. I quit the board the next term and stopped going to the festivals a few years back. Not because of this but because my health has not been good enough for me to attend and enjoy myself. For many years this experience haunted me and I could not even think about it without shaking. But at some point I let it go. I realized that I really didn’t care what those people thought about me and that they could not hurt me anymore. Plus as time went on I think some of them realized they had been mistaken but were too proud to apologize. And it was hurting me to carry around that pain, it was done and over with so I needed to move on. The experience made me politically smarter and I would never be as naive as I was then. The hardest part for me was forgiving myself for not listening to that internal voice that said “no this can’t be happening, he is a “good” man”. And life can be so strange. I made the best friend of my life out of this experience. She was one of the people who came gunning for me but a year or so afterwards we met at a class and she asked to speak with me. I said sure but I wanted to talk first. I told her exactly how I felt and she said she understand how I could feel that way and she would understand if you couldn’t forgive her but she wanted to tell me that she was wrong and what she did to me was awful. She hoped I could forgive her because she truly regretted what she did to me. It was such an honest apology that I had real respect for her and she has become the best friend anyone could have. I hope something wonderful comes out of this experience for you too! Wishing you the very best life has to offer,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of JUDY BARROWSent: May-10-12 11:26 AMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: : What does " hurt " look like? The posts on hurt, and how to deal with it, is fascinating for me at the present time; over the past four months I have been hounded several times a day by a person with severe OCD, and this person once held the post I have now, heading up a national charity. The person who used to do my work, was asked to step down (not by me, but a Committee) due to being difficult to work with, and they have been watching our work closely ever since. Recently, this person decided to start a rumour in print and public, about our (mainly my) use of charity funds (all falsehoods) resulting in months of charity legislature investigation and loss of services for my clients because my volunteers and my co-workers were unable to deal with the constant pressure and many of them left. I've spent the months placating all parties, including our sponsors, by being very nice and letting go of hurt, trying to show dignity, at the cost of swallowing my own very valid arguments that would have worked in other situations, but didnt wash at all with my clients, who mostly have OCD, and are living with tourette syndrome, aspergers and ASD. Plant an idea in their heads, and it burns and burns. As the person in charge, I have a duty of care to my clients, but also to the individual concerned, who has serious neurological issues; and who, being a well known person in Tourette syndrome circles, the damage to our reputation as a caring charity have been even worse if I had reacted in kind. The press would have had a field day. Hence, any anger I wanted to direct at this individual would be held up as a score. I took the route of publishing the truths, and regaining confidence of our clients piece by piece, bit by bit. No threats or sueing, just fighting each defamation with evidence of truth. And kindess. In order not to build up chinese whisper falsehoods, and to overcome the stress of my peers, I have had to follow each attack (which were consistent, the same criticism over and over again) with repeated calm statements, no anger, and keeping it simple. I have had to come home and belt the feathers out of a few pillows, as I cant pass on my frustration to Ian at home. And now, I have lost my job because whilst fighting all the oncomers, I havent been able to retain my own funding. My salary fund was spent on defending the case, and there is no money for me this month or next. And as I need to work, I now have to leave. So in a way, that person has won, as he has driven me out, in that respect. In the end, there has been a lot of good, because I have set up social media guidelines for our workers, training for peers in order to know when someone should be told information or not, and which hat to wear when in Committee.... and published all our funding and activities in a forum and so bulletproofed us from that person and their ilk in the future. They have tried to keep on with their hatred, but its good now, because people are defending the charity, defending me, and asking that person to explain why they are saying what they are saying. The person said they believed what they were saying was true, even when confronted with reality. They couldnt snap out of it. I met with the person the other week in mediation, and the individual admitted their OCD was so strong they didnt see the irrationality or even comprehend that they were hurting me and the charity. All that mattered was saying their piece and being listened to, gaining agreement. The person could not say sorry, they were genuinely pained at the thought. I left that meeting with the knowledge that they would never move on, so I had to. I am worn out with dealing with continued nastiness, because it is unfair and I simply cant move on inside. I might be in the clear and we have got through the other side, but I am damaged. . The other element of the subject of overcoming hurts, is that Ian, as part of his own OCD and Aspieness, cant let go or forget, let alone forgive. Ah, that differentation between forgive and forget. Ian remembers everything that matters to him - whether that be the entire first Star Trek episode, or something that happened when he was two years old, or most probably, being snubbed, ignored, laughed at, dismissed, and called stupid. Being ignored is a big one for Ian. He will move heaven and earth to revenge himself for being ignored - not just overlooked, but ignored when giving advice, or asking someone not to do something, or not being given credit for his actions. Its these instances where he cannot forget, and never forgive. In terms of my situation at work, I see a pattern - Ian would be just to same to whoever took his place, if he had been ousted from his post. I havent told him about my work situation because he would fixate on it himself, and even take the other side. Plus, he has 53 years of other fixations to go on with, and these surface constantly so he doesnt deserve one of mine, too. Sometimes, people do things that they are compelled to do and sometimes that isnt intended to be personal, even if it impacts on you personally. Its all about their driving passions. If we tell someone that we prefer them not to do something and they still do it, how do you deal with that? How not to let the poison seep in? Or how do you reject that poison - by allowing yourself to move on? Surely that means letting the other person off the hook? But then, nothing changes, and if you live with that culture, it becomes an acceptable way of living. By being nice to my own adversary, I damaged myself, but it was purely to limit the damage to the charity and the people within it. Yet I managed to explain and support my own case, in public, and through the authorities, but it wasnt ideal for me. I would have loved to have thumped that person on the nose. I have learnt from Ian that he chooses to live with a set of past hurts because he feels it justifies his behaviours at the time. If his actions impact on me, I tell him how I 'see' things from my point of view, so even if he cant understand why I feel hurt, he knows that I am. And we keep that dialogue going, if Ian unwittingly walks over my needs or feelings, I always explain (calmly) how I feel. Sometimes that is acknowledged, often it is greeted with an 'eh?' of incomprehension. By the way, , I still dont get your posts and only read them when others reply, its been like this for a while - I am trying to alter my settings so that my email spam doesnt trash all emails from your neck of the woods. Thanks for reading this far. I dont often bare my soul, but this one is very relevant to me at the moment. Judy B, getting a hard shell. To: aspires-relationships Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2012, 13:04Subject: Re: : What does " hurt " look like?> Instead, I seek explanations. I look for the reasons why someone acted the way they did, and try to figure out the path they took to the actions they took. Sometimes, when I understand, I'll accept what they did as understandable, but wrong. As I often say to my kids, An explanation is not an excuse. Just because I can see why you did something does not make what you did right.Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at too with similar situations. I find it calming, as it helps to make sense of my experience.> In other cases, though I can follow the logic path, the initial reasons don't make sense. A therapist friend of mine once told me that most insane people make perfectly sensible decisions, they just start from faulty premises.I've found that sometimes the initial reasons don't make sense because I don't have all of the information, and thus cannot construct a complete picture.Sometimes there are outside pressures (real or perceived) on the person who (usually inadvertently) inflicted the hurt, pressures that may have driven them to take the path of expediency/self-interest. A path they will probably rationalize (to themselves and to you) to avoid the discomfort of cognitive dissonance with respect to their self-image and actual behavior.In an ideal situation, I will be able to access the missing information at some point so that I can fill in the blanks. Usually though, it doesn't happen that way and I need to make peace with knowing that I will probably never know the complete story. Very frustrating....> His actions are still hurtful, and his premises are wrong. I don't hold a grudge against him, I don't hurt him in retaliation, but neither can I accept his presence in my life.I think that's a great way to approach the issue, Liz. The less emotional energy invested, the better.Best,~CJ------------------------------------ " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony.Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.We all contribute to the song of life. " ...Sondra We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER http://www.aspires-relationships.com

[Guest guest]

JUDY BARROW wrote:

> The posts on hurt, and how to deal with it, is fascinating for me at the

> present time; over the past four months I have been hounded several

> times a day by a person with severe OCD, and this person once held the

> post I have now, heading up a national charity.

[ snip a modern-day *heroic* saga ]

> And now, I have lost my job because whilst fighting all

> the oncomers, I havent been able to retain my own funding. My salary

> fund was spent on defending the case, and there is no money for me this

> month or next. And as I need to work, I now have to leave.

[ snip ]

> I am worn out with dealing with continued nastiness, because it is

> unfair and I simply cant move on inside. I might be in the clear and we

> have got through the other side, but I am damaged. .

[ snip ]

> Thanks for reading this far. I dont often bare my soul, but this one is

> very relevant to me at the moment.

> Judy B, getting a hard shell.

Ah, Judy --- I'm *so* sorry to read of your troubles! In that whole

history you're the heroine, the one to admire.

" Illigitimi non carborundum " ... *Their's* is far the bigger loss.

You're a singular asset to ASPIRES, just as in your recent day-job. You

will be again for whoever's lucky enough to get you next. Chin up!

Somehow.

- Bill ...AS (BTDT; yeah it hurts)

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

Deb, I really like the way your expressed these concepts here.

Definitely a keeper post. Thank you!

Best,

~CJ

,

I

understand what you are saying and from personal experience

I can say that letting go of, or forgiving, is freeing. When

I carried around my hurt and pain I was only hurting myself

far more that the original pain which I perceived to have

been dealt in the first place.

I

now that you have suffered a great hurt which has caused you

to drastically change the way you live, i.e. places you will

not go. But by holing onto that hurt you are allowing it to

control your life. If you could let it go you could be free

again.

In

my experience most of the pain I have experienced has been

because of my reaction to the experience and not from the

experience it’s self. But it is hard work to change our

perspective and to move through to a place where we choose

not to let the things that have been done to us to define

our lives.

An

example of this from my life is this. My daughter (she is 31

year old now) who I believe is on the spectrum but who has

not been diagnoses as such, she was diagnosed as having

Borderline Personality Disorder, has done some really nasty

things to me over the years. Some of them hurt me

emotionally so much that I considered disowning her because

I just couldn’t stand the constant pain any more. And in an

emotional way I did. I decided that she could only hurt me

if I allowed her to, so I emotionally pulled back and did

not engage her, or worry about her reactions etc. If she

called and I found her call to be causing me any stress I

would end the call. If we made plans to see each other I

never considered it a real date until we were together, i.e.

I did not attach myself emotionally or have any

expectations. I take very day one at a time and live as

though tomorrow she may decide on a whim that I am no longer

in her life and I no longer get to see my granddaughter. And

what came out of my detaching and letting go is I found

peace. And our relationship has changed in very good ways.

The more I detach and am expectation free the better our

relationship is and the better I feel. But I never would

have this peace if I kept carrying around my hurt, blame,

bitterness, etc. over things done in the past. The past is

over and done with it can only hurt me now if I let it and I

want to be happy.

So

as much as I understand your perspective of hurt me once

shame on you, hurt me twice shame on me, yes learn from the

experience but find a way to not carry the pain from it

around with you or let it define how you live your life. And

the real lesson to learn is to let it go and live your life

in a more emotionally healthy way like setting personal

boundaries, communicating effectively with those you care

about, how to resolve conflict, etc. Learn to accept that

crap happens but so do wonderful things, if you are going to

focus on something let it be the memories that make you

happiest but mostly live in the moment and not the past.

I

try to live in the moment as much as possible because there

are plenty of things in my past I certainly don’t want to

relive.

Hope

that made sense I feel like I’m rambling.

Cheers,

Deb

[Guest guest]

I echo 's sentiments! Thank you for sharing your stories. Those are very

very painful experiences!

I think most of us at one point or another have experienced a serious betrayal

of trust. Timing and the circumstances can make the difference between something

that you can " move on from " albeit very painfully, or something that is so life

altering, perhaps at a very vulnerable time, that it makes it virtually

impossible to do so. Trust is the central issue. It makes or breaks most deals

in life - whether it's on an individual level or on a global level.

- Helen

>

> , Judy, CJ, Liz and others - Thanks for responding to this thread. I have

learned a lot from all of you. I hope others respond as well. We all experience

our life differently.

>

> Best.

>

>

>