Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

[Guest guest]

Have at it. If you look around the web there are commercial products you can

copy.

Dr. Donsbach has great ingredients in his formulas:

www.letstalkhealth.com/Liposomal-s/32.htm

There is also a List if you want more email ...

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/DIY-LET/

I sent you a file seperately to your inbox. If you have questions you can

contact me. ---tls

LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

I have been reading up on liposomal Vitamin C and wonder

if one can use this same technique to make Glutathione?

What are the parameters?

Could I for example, take several powders, mix them up

and put them in my cauldron to achieve a bottle of multi-

mineral/vit. liposomal kaboogy goodness?

I am also trying to figure out how to measure

DMSO for herb tinctures.

Does anyone of you wonderful folk know the answer?

Thanks, MB

[Guest guest]

I've spent a lot of time working with the Ultrasonic method of liposomal

encapsulation, the reason being we wanted to market a package that would

have the whole thing as a kit that you could make at home for a modest

investment. This has been a 2 year exploration based on principles

similar to the " pdazzler " approach. My conclusion: foul tasting stuff

that was only marginally effective. I did manage to take up to 20g of

Vit C without bowel tolerance issues, so the home brew method does work

to a degree since it's well known that 20g could not otherwise be

tolerated in a non sick individual. We were also in discussions with Dr

Donsbach about manufacturing for us and 2 other sources, one that was

actually none liposomal but similarly effective. We had the Donsbach

stuff analysed in a lab, and also the Livon Labs. Without wanting to

cross swords, let me just say there's a reason they're in capsules or in

pouches and contain alcohol, that they're gloopy, need shaking and can't

handle temperature changes. I went from the opinion of " Lipo is simple

and they're just charging exorbitant amounts for something and blinding

us with science " to " omg, this is one tough nut to crack, no wonder it's

so expensive " . I'm purposefully going to refrain from posting our URL

just so you don't think I'm making a sales pitch here, but finally we've

agreed on a formula and we're in production right at this moment, and

the Lipo is a phosphatidylcholine from a non GMO Sunflower oil source.

We've also added Glutathione, and hand on heart I believe it will be the

best product [that will be] on the market in the world bar none (no

point in doing it any different). It also actually tastes, err....

'okay' (kind of candy like). If you've taken large amounts of Lipo

lecithin based then you'll know 'okay' is probably the best grade

possible. Not wretching in complete disgust would be the next best rating.

Home brew is worthwhile if cash is the main driver. You have to use a

lot more and there are limits to how much you can take, and also limits

in how long it stays in the system, but if you want to get it

intracellular rather than just serum level (which counts for a lot more

in terms of effectiveness than mg dosage - a mg is not just a mg, it's

location as well), then certainly worth consideration. My (our) goal

has always been having a bottle of 'stuff' where you can take 1000mg per

day and have the effectiveness of 10x that because it gets where it's

needed, but the dream beyond that, because it works so much better than

IV is " what if I was really sick, and I wanted to drink 1 bottle per day

for 1 month? " Could that be possible and could that be effective, and

could it really be that simple? That would be pretty expensive as a

supplement, unless you compare it to Chemo and the resultant damage to

the body, then it looks like a walk in the park. QED.

Also remember Vit C recyclers - Glutathione, NAC, R-ALA, Vit E etc, they

all donate to each other in cascade fashion. www.Orthomolecular.com is

a great site for Truth on Ascorbic acid (non commercial site). What

isn't clear at the moment is whether this will only recycle serum blood

level, or whether it can do it inside the cell, which is where the

potency really goes off the charts.

DMSO: There are two measurements for the DMSO itself. One is the

purity (eg. 99.99% or whatever claimed) and the other is the dilution

(eg. 99.99% but diluted to 70% in water). DMSO dehydrates, so you need

to spray the skin with water afterwards, or Aloe Vera is popular also

(probably better not to take orally for this very reason, or at least

drink a lot of water). Also potency isn't linear in effectiveness.

Ours is 99.98%, which would on first appearance look to be less than

99.99%, but the remaining 0.2% is only pure water, and in Europe is

classed as pharmaceutical grade, though in USA we can't call it that

(even though it is) and has different labelling. With the 99.99% they

tend not to state what the remaining 0.01% is, where as we can account

for all of everything, in glass, never been near plastics. The amount

you use depends on the product you want to carry. If you have an idea

in Daltons of the molecular weight of your candidate product, and it's

electrochemical status, then you could make a good stab at what the

formula should look like.

B

>

>

> I have been reading up on liposomal Vitamin C and wonder

> if one can use this same technique to make Glutathione?

> What are the parameters?

> Could I for example, take several powders, mix them up

> and put them in my cauldron to achieve a bottle of multi-

> mineral/vit. liposomal kaboogy goodness?

>

> I am also trying to figure out how to measure

> DMSO for herb tinctures.

>

> Does anyone of you wonderful folk know the answer?

> Thanks, MB

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is INCREDIBLY valuable information !!!:

> My conclusion: foul tasting stuff that was only marginally effective. I did

manage to take up to 20g of Vit C without bowel tolerance issues, so the home

brew method does work to a degree since it's well known that 20g could not

otherwise be tolerated in a non sick individual.

> ...let me just say there's a reason they're in capsules or in

> pouches and contain alcohol, that they're gloopy, need shaking and can't

handle temperature changes. I went from the opinion of " Lipo is simple and

they're just charging exorbitant amounts for something and blinding us with

science " to " omg, this is one tough nut to crack, no wonder it's so expensive " .

> It also actually tastes, err.... 'okay' (kind of candy like). If you've

taken large amounts of Lipo lecithin based then you'll know 'okay' is probably

the best grade possible. Not wretching in complete disgust would be the next

best rating.

> Home brew is worthwhile if cash is the main driver.

You should post this at the DIY-LET group; I asked there about most of these

concerns and got replies which sort of made my skin crawl !!!

Needless to say - my concerns about spending big-$ (that I do not have...) to

make gloopy, wretched, foul-tasting stuff now CLEARLY appear to have been well

justified...Thank you !!!

Best Wishes to All.

mark

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Interesting to hear that our group's answers made your skin crawl. Sorry I

wasted the time to try to answer you.

My, my, amazing how you want to take as gospel that of someone you agree with

and not others. I like the taste of homemade lipo-c and it has been a health

boon to many in my group as well as myself. If you want to agree with the bias

of some one in the business of making a commercial product, go right ahead.

doug

> This is INCREDIBLY valuable information !!!:

>

>> My conclusion: foul tasting stuff that was only marginally effective. I did

manage to take up to 20g of Vit C without bowel tolerance issues, so the home

brew method does work to a degree since it's well known that 20g could not

otherwise be tolerated in a non sick individual.

>

>> ...let me just say there's a reason they're in capsules or in

>> pouches and contain alcohol, that they're gloopy, need shaking and can't

handle temperature changes. I went from the opinion of " Lipo is simple and

they're just charging exorbitant amounts for something and blinding us with

science " to " omg, this is one tough nut to crack, no wonder it's so expensive " .

>

>> It also actually tastes, err.... 'okay' (kind of candy like). If you've

taken large amounts of Lipo lecithin based then you'll know 'okay' is probably

the best grade possible. Not wretching in complete disgust would be the next

best rating.

>

>> Home brew is worthwhile if cash is the main driver.

>

> You should post this at the DIY-LET group; I asked there about most of these

concerns and got replies which sort of made my skin crawl !!!

>

> Needless to say - my concerns about spending big-$ (that I do not have...) to

make gloopy, wretched, foul-tasting stuff now CLEARLY appear to have been well

justified...Thank you !!!

>

> Best Wishes to All.

>

> mark

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug,

Opinion is bias, sure, but I purposely have never mentioned any

connection to the business in order to make it clear that it was my

opinion and not a sales pitch. I thought that was just fair disclosure

so everyone knows. I didn't dismiss homebrew, I just described some of

its limitations (absorbtion, taste) as well as its advantages (price).

One thing that is clear though that if you need to get the maximum

absorption without the bowel tolerance, in order to get IV or better

results, then maximum encapsulation to avoid bowel tolerance limits, and

not yakking your guts up are desirable traits.

The one link I did give was not ours and is non profit, and shows clear

benefits of using 100g+ of IV Ascorbate several times a week, and my

goal was (is) to see if someone in deep do do (eg. stage 4 metastatic

cancer) could drink a small bottle of tolerable liquid every day for a

month and get better benefits than something like Chemo which is worse

than neutral, or IV Vit C, which even if you can get it in your country

would still be perhaps $100/day, and do it for a fraction of the price

and with no discomfort. Even if that was a profit centre is it really

so wrong? We're in a challenging position of trying to save lives (and

we do!) whilst it being illegal for us to tell the truth about our

products. I do also know that some people choose to die rather than

heal when the challenge of consuming something that tastes bad is

significant. MMS being one example, although there are ways of making

that taste better as well. R-ALA and some others I mentioned have a

taste challenge, even in tiny amounts. I think Mark was perfectly valid

in his observations, and with everyone pushing their own point of view

it's good to aggregate opinions to help a person reach their own. So

many times in life I've had many people tell me something which was

contrary to my own beliefs, and when I finally experienced the said

subject found that my own opinions were valid all along, and 20 people

telling me otherwise should have been discounted in favour of my own,

because it was still true for me, even if not for others.

I get approached in real life on a fairly regular basis by people with

life threatening conditions based on recommendation from a mutual

friend. I don't enjoy this because someone who doesn't know me is

putting all their faith in me and making me responsible for their

success, while at the same time I've got to make sure that they can

actually follow instructions, which to date has been a very rare thing.

Sometimes it's HIV, sometimes Cancer, sometimes it might be high blood

pressure or a heart condition. What I've learned always to do is never

recommend anything that we sell, unless I have some here and can give it

to them for free, just to take the profit motive off the table so I

can't be accused of that. You guys are smarter than the average bear in

that you're seeking answers already, rather than being on the backfoot

having to choose whether to believe a doctor or some alternative

medicine when cornered, so you already have your own education. If I

had cancer I know exactly what protocol I would be following since I've

spent many many thousands of hours researching, but to put that onto a

bullet point list for someone to go out and do their own shopping list

and administrate is asking too much of most people. Lipo that tastes

okay would be something I'd be much more comfortable with because it's

very hard to hurt yourself with it, whereas Cesium or something you need

to understand what's happening and take responsibility for yourself.

That's why I chose to write something on the forum when Lipo came up as

a topic.

Regards

B

>

> Mark,

>

> Interesting to hear that our group's answers made your skin crawl.

> Sorry I wasted the time to try to answer you.

>

> My, my, amazing how you want to take as gospel that of someone you

> agree with and not others. I like the taste of homemade lipo-c and it

> has been a health boon to many in my group as well as myself. If you

> want to agree with the bias of some one in the business of making a

> commercial product, go right ahead.

>

> doug

>

>

>

> > This is INCREDIBLY valuable information !!!:

> >

> >> My conclusion: foul tasting stuff that was only marginally

> effective. I did manage to take up to 20g of Vit C without bowel

> tolerance issues, so the home brew method does work to a degree since

> it's well known that 20g could not otherwise be tolerated in a non

> sick individual.

> >

> >> ...let me just say there's a reason they're in capsules or in

> >> pouches and contain alcohol, that they're gloopy, need shaking and

> can't handle temperature changes. I went from the opinion of " Lipo is

> simple and they're just charging exorbitant amounts for something and

> blinding us with science " to " omg, this is one tough nut to crack, no

> wonder it's so expensive " .

> >

> >> It also actually tastes, err.... 'okay' (kind of candy like). If

> you've taken large amounts of Lipo lecithin based then you'll know

> 'okay' is probably the best grade possible. Not wretching in complete

> disgust would be the next best rating.

> >

> >> Home brew is worthwhile if cash is the main driver.

> >

> > You should post this at the DIY-LET group; I asked there about most

> of these concerns and got replies which sort of made my skin crawl !!!

> >

> > Needless to say - my concerns about spending big-$ (that I do not

> have...) to make gloopy, wretched, foul-tasting stuff now CLEARLY

> appear to have been well justified...Thank you !!!

> >

> > Best Wishes to All.

> >

> > mark

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I have nothing against you. We all need to make a buck in life and if we

can help people along the way, all the better. However, just because you

don't list your website or directly promote it does not dismiss you from a

bias against the homemade equivalent to your product. It still exists. Livon

is dead set against Bradley's homemade formula for probably similar

reasons. You can't widely sell a product that can be made much cheaper at

home. Livon even commissioned a lab study to discredit the formula while you

just throw out vague inflammatory phrases like: " My conclusion: foul

tasting stuff that was only marginally effective. " Give me a break! How much

have you really studied our home made stuff and how was it only marginally

effective? How many cases is this vague insinuation based on? And how do we

know you made it properly? I must say one thing though, if it did increase

bowel tolerance as you write, then it must be encapsulated. That is a good

way of knowing if it is being encapsulated or not.

I agree, we all in life have to listen to those that speak and find our

own truth in an uncertain world, but Mark is out of line here. He has not

even attempted to make the home made stuff, really hates the idea of

spending money on an ultrasonic bath, and seems to have a built in bias

against the stuff from the beginning. I guess he wanted answers that no one

can really give him or it wasn't what he wanted to hear. He wants to know if

we make it taste better? Give me a break! It boils my blood that people are

guided by taste over all things legitimate to good health. He writes that

his " skin crawled " from the answers he got on our group. His attitude, well,

how to I describe it politely? I can't, so I guess I won't.

doug

Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

> Hi Doug,

>

> Opinion is bias, sure, but I purposely have never mentioned any

> connection to the business in order to make it clear that it was my

> opinion and not a sales pitch. I thought that was just fair disclosure

> so everyone knows. I didn't dismiss homebrew, I just described some of

> its limitations (absorbtion, taste) as well as its advantages (price).

> One thing that is clear though that if you need to get the maximum

> absorption without the bowel tolerance, in order to get IV or better

> results, then maximum encapsulation to avoid bowel tolerance limits, and

> not yakking your guts up are desirable traits.

>

> The one link I did give was not ours and is non profit, and shows clear

> benefits of using 100g+ of IV Ascorbate several times a week, and my

> goal was (is) to see if someone in deep do do (eg. stage 4 metastatic

> cancer) could drink a small bottle of tolerable liquid every day for a

> month and get better benefits than something like Chemo which is worse

> than neutral, or IV Vit C, which even if you can get it in your country

> would still be perhaps $100/day, and do it for a fraction of the price

> and with no discomfort. Even if that was a profit centre is it really

> so wrong? We're in a challenging position of trying to save lives (and

> we do!) whilst it being illegal for us to tell the truth about our

> products. I do also know that some people choose to die rather than

> heal when the challenge of consuming something that tastes bad is

> significant. MMS being one example, although there are ways of making

> that taste better as well. R-ALA and some others I mentioned have a

> taste challenge, even in tiny amounts. I think Mark was perfectly valid

> in his observations, and with everyone pushing their own point of view

> it's good to aggregate opinions to help a person reach their own. So

> many times in life I've had many people tell me something which was

> contrary to my own beliefs, and when I finally experienced the said

> subject found that my own opinions were valid all along, and 20 people

> telling me otherwise should have been discounted in favour of my own,

> because it was still true for me, even if not for others.

>

> I get approached in real life on a fairly regular basis by people with

> life threatening conditions based on recommendation from a mutual

> friend. I don't enjoy this because someone who doesn't know me is

> putting all their faith in me and making me responsible for their

> success, while at the same time I've got to make sure that they can

> actually follow instructions, which to date has been a very rare thing.

> Sometimes it's HIV, sometimes Cancer, sometimes it might be high blood

> pressure or a heart condition. What I've learned always to do is never

> recommend anything that we sell, unless I have some here and can give it

> to them for free, just to take the profit motive off the table so I

> can't be accused of that. You guys are smarter than the average bear in

> that you're seeking answers already, rather than being on the backfoot

> having to choose whether to believe a doctor or some alternative

> medicine when cornered, so you already have your own education. If I

> had cancer I know exactly what protocol I would be following since I've

> spent many many thousands of hours researching, but to put that onto a

> bullet point list for someone to go out and do their own shopping list

> and administrate is asking too much of most people. Lipo that tastes

> okay would be something I'd be much more comfortable with because it's

> very hard to hurt yourself with it, whereas Cesium or something you need

> to understand what's happening and take responsibility for yourself.

> That's why I chose to write something on the forum when Lipo came up as

> a topic.

>

> Regards

> B

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug,

You're right about that. What we were aiming at though was making kits

at bulk prices for homebrew (not just Vit C, but Glutathione, Curcumin,

and half a dozen other components). When we got down to it though, we

learned that it wasn't going to hack it, so we changed course.

My conclusion was just that, not a double blind placebo study designed

to make my name in the world of white papers. It's based on my own

experience and not a statistically significant test group. I just

offered an opinion that's all. Whatever you say about it, it's still my

opinion and will stand as my opinion whatever mud you want to sling at it.

I think a little more tolerance of other peoples opinion and perception

would allow your blood to boil a little less, even if you *know* somehow

that they're 'wrong'. As the saying goes " This is my way, what is your

way? *The* way doesn't exist " .

Regards

B

>

> ,

>

> I have nothing against you. We all need to make a buck in life and if we

> can help people along the way, all the better. However, just because you

> don't list your website or directly promote it does not dismiss you

> from a

> bias against the homemade equivalent to your product. It still exists.

> Livon

> is dead set against Bradley's homemade formula for probably

> similar

> reasons. You can't widely sell a product that can be made much cheaper at

> home. Livon even commissioned a lab study to discredit the formula

> while you

> just throw out vague inflammatory phrases like: " My conclusion: foul

> tasting stuff that was only marginally effective. " Give me a break!

> How much

> have you really studied our home made stuff and how was it only

> marginally

> effective? How many cases is this vague insinuation based on? And how

> do we

> know you made it properly? I must say one thing though, if it did

> increase

> bowel tolerance as you write, then it must be encapsulated. That is a

> good

> way of knowing if it is being encapsulated or not.

>

> I agree, we all in life have to listen to those that speak and find our

> own truth in an uncertain world, but Mark is out of line here. He has not

> even attempted to make the home made stuff, really hates the idea of

> spending money on an ultrasonic bath, and seems to have a built in bias

> against the stuff from the beginning. I guess he wanted answers that

> no one

> can really give him or it wasn't what he wanted to hear. He wants to

> know if

> we make it taste better? Give me a break! It boils my blood that

> people are

> guided by taste over all things legitimate to good health. He writes that

> his " skin crawled " from the answers he got on our group. His attitude,

> well,

> how to I describe it politely? I can't, so I guess I won't.

>

> doug

>

> Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

>

> > Hi Doug,

> >

> > Opinion is bias, sure, but I purposely have never mentioned any

> > connection to the business in order to make it clear that it was my

> > opinion and not a sales pitch. I thought that was just fair disclosure

> > so everyone knows. I didn't dismiss homebrew, I just described some of

> > its limitations (absorbtion, taste) as well as its advantages (price).

> > One thing that is clear though that if you need to get the maximum

> > absorption without the bowel tolerance, in order to get IV or better

> > results, then maximum encapsulation to avoid bowel tolerance limits, and

> > not yakking your guts up are desirable traits.

> >

> > The one link I did give was not ours and is non profit, and shows clear

> > benefits of using 100g+ of IV Ascorbate several times a week, and my

> > goal was (is) to see if someone in deep do do (eg. stage 4 metastatic

> > cancer) could drink a small bottle of tolerable liquid every day for a

> > month and get better benefits than something like Chemo which is worse

> > than neutral, or IV Vit C, which even if you can get it in your country

> > would still be perhaps $100/day, and do it for a fraction of the price

> > and with no discomfort. Even if that was a profit centre is it really

> > so wrong? We're in a challenging position of trying to save lives (and

> > we do!) whilst it being illegal for us to tell the truth about our

> > products. I do also know that some people choose to die rather than

> > heal when the challenge of consuming something that tastes bad is

> > significant. MMS being one example, although there are ways of making

> > that taste better as well. R-ALA and some others I mentioned have a

> > taste challenge, even in tiny amounts. I think Mark was perfectly valid

> > in his observations, and with everyone pushing their own point of view

> > it's good to aggregate opinions to help a person reach their own. So

> > many times in life I've had many people tell me something which was

> > contrary to my own beliefs, and when I finally experienced the said

> > subject found that my own opinions were valid all along, and 20 people

> > telling me otherwise should have been discounted in favour of my own,

> > because it was still true for me, even if not for others.

> >

> > I get approached in real life on a fairly regular basis by people with

> > life threatening conditions based on recommendation from a mutual

> > friend. I don't enjoy this because someone who doesn't know me is

> > putting all their faith in me and making me responsible for their

> > success, while at the same time I've got to make sure that they can

> > actually follow instructions, which to date has been a very rare thing.

> > Sometimes it's HIV, sometimes Cancer, sometimes it might be high blood

> > pressure or a heart condition. What I've learned always to do is never

> > recommend anything that we sell, unless I have some here and can give it

> > to them for free, just to take the profit motive off the table so I

> > can't be accused of that. You guys are smarter than the average bear in

> > that you're seeking answers already, rather than being on the backfoot

> > having to choose whether to believe a doctor or some alternative

> > medicine when cornered, so you already have your own education. If I

> > had cancer I know exactly what protocol I would be following since I've

> > spent many many thousands of hours researching, but to put that onto a

> > bullet point list for someone to go out and do their own shopping list

> > and administrate is asking too much of most people. Lipo that tastes

> > okay would be something I'd be much more comfortable with because it's

> > very hard to hurt yourself with it, whereas Cesium or something you need

> > to understand what's happening and take responsibility for yourself.

> > That's why I chose to write something on the forum when Lipo came up as

> > a topic.

> >

> > Regards

> > B

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hehehe, ok, I get a little rambunctious with my prose now and then. Forgive

me. My blood really doesn't boil, but I do consider those that let their

taste palate rule their health to be likely to pay a major price in the

future. I don't have much patience for them. Nothing tastes much worse than

DMSO, but I see a lot of people tolerating it. Again, I like the taste of my

homemade lipo-c. To me, it is a creamy/sour taste not at all unpleasant.

doug

Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

>

> Hi Doug,

>

> You're right about that. What we were aiming at though was making kits

> at bulk prices for homebrew (not just Vit C, but Glutathione, Curcumin,

> and half a dozen other components). When we got down to it though, we

> learned that it wasn't going to hack it, so we changed course.

>

> My conclusion was just that, not a double blind placebo study designed

> to make my name in the world of white papers. It's based on my own

> experience and not a statistically significant test group. I just

> offered an opinion that's all. Whatever you say about it, it's still my

> opinion and will stand as my opinion whatever mud you want to sling at it.

>

> I think a little more tolerance of other peoples opinion and perception

> would allow your blood to boil a little less, even if you *know* somehow

> that they're 'wrong'. As the saying goes " This is my way, what is your

> way? *The* way doesn't exist " .

>

> Regards

> B

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug,

I'd be interested to learn how you made it palatable. We're on the same

side here, if there are even sides(!). I did it badly, and by the

sounds of it you did it better. DMSO to me is easy stuff to handle

(though maybe not for people neighbouring you), when I talked about Lipo

I was talking about something very different, but then our experiences

may not be about the same thing. I don't know. The way you describe

homebrew lipo makes it sound attractive, and I'd be interested to

investigate further.

Regards

B

>

> Hehehe, ok, I get a little rambunctious with my prose now and then.

> Forgive

> me. My blood really doesn't boil, but I do consider those that let their

> taste palate rule their health to be likely to pay a major price in the

> future. I don't have much patience for them. Nothing tastes much worse

> than

> DMSO, but I see a lot of people tolerating it. Again, I like the taste

> of my

> homemade lipo-c. To me, it is a creamy/sour taste not at all unpleasant.

>

> doug

>

> Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

>

> >

> > Hi Doug,

> >

> > You're right about that. What we were aiming at though was making kits

> > at bulk prices for homebrew (not just Vit C, but Glutathione, Curcumin,

> > and half a dozen other components). When we got down to it though, we

> > learned that it wasn't going to hack it, so we changed course.

> >

> > My conclusion was just that, not a double blind placebo study designed

> > to make my name in the world of white papers. It's based on my own

> > experience and not a statistically significant test group. I just

> > offered an opinion that's all. Whatever you say about it, it's still my

> > opinion and will stand as my opinion whatever mud you want to sling

> at it.

> >

> > I think a little more tolerance of other peoples opinion and perception

> > would allow your blood to boil a little less, even if you *know* somehow

> > that they're 'wrong'. As the saying goes " This is my way, what is your

> > way? *The* way doesn't exist " .

> >

> > Regards

> > B

>

>

[Guest guest]

Don't get me wrong. Taste is a very individualistic thing. I just happen to

like the creamy sour taste of ascorbic acid in lecithin. Other people seem

to gag at the taste. I doubt if my formula is much different from theirs. I

know one German man that gags and says it reminds him of whale oil he was

forced to take as a youngster. I doubt if my method or Bradley's

method will make taste any more agreeable to those that simply do not like

it.

I do have one friend that finds it much more palatable if she uses sodium

ascorbate instead of the more sour, ascorbic acid. That is worth a try. I

personally like the sour taste and use ascorbic acid.

doug

Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

> Hi Doug,

>

> I'd be interested to learn how you made it palatable. We're on the same

> side here, if there are even sides(!). I did it badly, and by the

> sounds of it you did it better. DMSO to me is easy stuff to handle

> (though maybe not for people neighbouring you), when I talked about Lipo

> I was talking about something very different, but then our experiences

> may not be about the same thing. I don't know. The way you describe

> homebrew lipo makes it sound attractive, and I'd be interested to

> investigate further.

[Guest guest]

Hello Doug.

You wrote:

> Interesting to hear that our group's answers made your skin crawl. Sorry I

wasted the time to try to answer you.

I find that very few folks have been devoted to eating disgusting medicinals for

any length of time - speaking as one who has, I believe I have ample reason to

feel crawly when it becomes obvious that ONE MORE is under

consideration...please, read on...

You are referring here to , who has ONLY been wonderful and generous to me:

> My, my, amazing how you want to take as gospel that of someone you agree with

and not others.

> If you want to agree with the bias of some one in the business of making a

commercial product, go right ahead.

Bearing in mind that is probably 10,000 miles away in another country - and

that when someone in this group said I was being cheap because I couldn't manage

to buy some Lugol's (when it's more like plain old dead broke) - sent me

the ingredients AT ZERO CHARGE all the way from there, and has been very kind

and generous in his info sharing as well.

Does this give me cause to consider his ideas credible & honest ?

Yes, I think so; because he has shown himself to be a decent and caring

individual, which is quite priceless in my opinion.

Very cool, and encouraging, but:

> I like the taste of homemade lipo-c and it has been a health boon to many in

my group as well as myself.

It also seems like results & tastes vary very widely and have been posted saying

so in your group (which I do read carefully).

Let's see if it is easy to debunk what said:

1. foul tasting stuff

2. only marginally effective

3. bowel tolerance issues

4. gloopy, need shaking and can't handle temperature changes

Seems to me that most of his points have been mentioned precisely & recently by

other (non-commercial) group members as their concerns too; though they may have

been worded differently.

And further to 's credit, he concluded:

> " omg, this is one tough nut to crack, no wonder it's so expensive " .

> Home brew is worthwhile if cash is the main driver.

Now, just to be clear - I am very careful about buying ANYTHING which may take

up space and/or money that I simply do not have.

Which likely has you asking=> Am I just a whiney, cheap, old jerk ?

Your call - but the facts are these - I've been very ill for years and only

lately have been improving; I live in mid-Vermont in a 58 year old, tiny camper

with no running water in winter and my only power is from an extension cord.

It is sooo small in here that I have neither space nor power for a coffee maker

if I wanted one.

So, yes - I did say this:

> > Needless to say - my concerns about spending big-$ (that I do not have...)

to make gloopy, wretched, foul-tasting stuff now CLEARLY appear to have been

well justified...Thank you !!!

And soon I will likely try again to consume chaparral tea, daily; which is just

a bit hard to take...so until I see that there's a SERIOUSLY SOLID method for

making & consuming lipo-C which has about a 90% chance of success for me...I can

wait, watch, and learn from what others are doing.

This method seems best and most rational to me.

And specifically:

I apologize Doug, that my choice of words offended you.

Best Wishes to All.

mark

[Guest guest]

Mark,

Ok, got it now about your " skin crawling " because of what you are

imagining stuff will taste like and not so much the answers you received,

itself. That makes a difference.

As far as your listed 's points:

1) " foul tasting stuff " .......................some of my members dislike

the taste, but there are others like me that like the taste. Those liking

the taste are just not as vocal.

2) " only marginally effective " ............I think most on the group are

quite convinced that home made lipo-c is pretty effective, much better than

plain vitamin c, and much cheaper than Livon's stuff. predicted about

70% encapsulation and that aint bad for the bucks.

3) " bowel tolerance issues " .............as far as I know, there are NONE.

Everyone that makes the stuff says they can take much more Vit C using the

homemade method than not.

4) " gloopy, need shaking and can't handle temperature

changes " .......................whoo, boy! If the homemade stuff is made

properly, there is very little separation, if any. Few on the list have

separation problems. The talk on my group about " shaking " is in the

pre-ultrasonic phase which involves initial dissolving of the components

into a water solution. Once it is ultrasounded, it is pretty stable and will

last a long time. As far as " gloopy " , I wouldn't describe it as such and I

don't think my list members did that either. Not sure what you mean that it

can't handle temperature changes. It is made at room temperature and can be

stored at room temperature for a few days, but for really longer storage, it

is better to put in the frig. If you don't want to do that, just make enough

to last a few days.

I am sorry you are living in poverty. However, until you actually invest

in the equipment to make the stuff, I really don't think you have much rank

in criticizing it. You are simply harvesting comments that seem to suit your

mind-set. I would be ranked of living in poverty, myself. I would never go

back to the more expensive Vit C tablets which I have taken for years in the

past with all the fillers, etc.

apology accepted,

doug

Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

> Hello Doug.

>

> You wrote:

>> Interesting to hear that our group's answers made your skin crawl.

>> Sorry I wasted the time to try to answer you.

>

> I find that very few folks have been devoted to eating disgusting

> medicinals for any length of time - speaking as one who has, I believe I

> have ample reason to feel crawly when it becomes obvious that ONE MORE is

> under consideration...please, read on...

>

> You are referring here to , who has ONLY been wonderful and generous

> to me:

>> My, my, amazing how you want to take as gospel that of someone you agree

>> with and not others.

>

>> If you want to agree with the bias of some one in the business of

>> making a commercial product, go right ahead.

>

> Bearing in mind that is probably 10,000 miles away in another

> country - and that when someone in this group said I was being cheap

> because I couldn't manage to buy some Lugol's (when it's more like plain

> old dead broke) - sent me the ingredients AT ZERO CHARGE all the way

> from there, and has been very kind and generous in his info sharing as

> well.

>

> Does this give me cause to consider his ideas credible & honest ?

> Yes, I think so; because he has shown himself to be a decent and caring

> individual, which is quite priceless in my opinion.

>

> Very cool, and encouraging, but:

>> I like the taste of homemade lipo-c and it has been a health boon to

>> many in my group as well as myself.

>

> It also seems like results & tastes vary very widely and have been posted

> saying so in your group (which I do read carefully).

>

> Let's see if it is easy to debunk what said:

>

> 1. foul tasting stuff

> 2. only marginally effective

> 3. bowel tolerance issues

> 4. gloopy, need shaking and can't handle temperature changes

>

> Seems to me that most of his points have been mentioned precisely &

> recently by other (non-commercial) group members as their concerns too;

> though they may have been worded differently.

>

> And further to 's credit, he concluded:

>> " omg, this is one tough nut to crack, no wonder it's so expensive " .

>> Home brew is worthwhile if cash is the main driver.

>

> Now, just to be clear - I am very careful about buying ANYTHING which may

> take up space and/or money that I simply do not have.

>

> Which likely has you asking=> Am I just a whiney, cheap, old jerk ?

>

> Your call - but the facts are these - I've been very ill for years and

> only lately have been improving; I live in mid-Vermont in a 58 year old,

> tiny camper with no running water in winter and my only power is from an

> extension cord.

> It is sooo small in here that I have neither space nor power for a coffee

> maker if I wanted one.

>

> So, yes - I did say this:

>> > Needless to say - my concerns about spending big-$ (that I do not

>> > have...) to make gloopy, wretched, foul-tasting stuff now CLEARLY

>> > appear to have been well justified...Thank you !!!

>

> And soon I will likely try again to consume chaparral tea, daily; which is

> just a bit hard to take...so until I see that there's a SERIOUSLY SOLID

> method for making & consuming lipo-C which has about a 90% chance of

> success for me...I can wait, watch, and learn from what others are doing.

>

> This method seems best and most rational to me.

>

> And specifically:

> I apologize Doug, that my choice of words offended you.

>

> Best Wishes to All.

>

> mark

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

I don't want to cause disharmony in the group so I won't pursue this too

much beyond this post, but I can see there's some information bleed

going on with attributes I assigned to some commercial products that are

being taken as belly shots to homebrew, and feel I should at least

clarify a few points to unhook some areas that have more tension:

1. Foul tasting stuff:

The taste is not the worst of it, you can always gargle with something

else afterwards, it's that using the formula I was following (pdazzler)

it was a substantial portion of a glass full, and it just sat on my

stomach all day, and 2 times (out of 4 or 5, I don't recall), after

several hours I just threw it up. I was taking large volumes though,

because I wanted to push it to its logical conclusion and see how far I

could push the envelope, knowing that if we went ahead with the project

then I'd be supporting any number of health questions for years into the

future and I need to be the dummy who does the bubba dose and has walked

the walk.

2. Marginally effective:

Perhaps this is a poor choice of words. I did manage to keep down 20g

of active ingredient and did not at any point have bowel issues. This

issues came before that (see point 1). I'd estimate 50-60%

encapsulation, but that's just a visual along with 'no bowel' issue

based conclusion.

3. Bowel tolerance issues:

I don't dispute that.

4. Gloopy, Temperature tolerance:

Here I'm referring to commercial products. Livon is gloopy, and also

contains alcohol as a preservative, which is a deal breaker for a true

Liposome. It also cannot handle temperature changes, such as flying in

a cargo hold. When they tell you to shake it up and keep it

refrigerated, they're asking you to mask it's failures. Much like

commercial yoghurt, most of it's waxy properties and consistency is

about making it flow through the pipes in the factory, and doesn't have

the end user in mind. Like commercial milk staying in suspension and

looking uniform white, it's about looks. /Where Liposomes are concerned

however, uniformity is important, as it's an indicator of consistent

encapsulation, and there should be no separation, since it's one product

inside another. /Donsbach keeps it in a gelcap so you don't really see

what's going on, but that's a compromise on the product because you can

only get so much inside a capsule, and the ratio of Lipo to active gets

pushed right to the edge of the envelope, reducing encapsulation

percentage, but nobody is going to complain because if you have a few

hundred mg in a capsule, you're not going to eat 90 capsules a day to

see if you have bowel issues. Livon have individual sachets, which

allows more Liposome per mg of C which is better, but then you risk

people seeing it separating, so they make it thick to try to limit

that. A good liposome (for vit c I mean - there are many types

depending on what it's carrying) is thin in texture and consistency,

sometimes milky, and should not have separation, and you should be able

to put it in a bottle for all to see that it's holding itself together.

The best liposomes as carriers also taste *extremely* foul, much worse

than homebrew lecithin. I mean really, *Much* worse. And somehow you

have to overcome that, and the process gets a lot more complex as a result.

Making a homebrew has many advantages over commercial, because you don't

need to worry about shelf life, packaging method, temperature,

encapsulation percent etc. If it's a little bit one way or the other,

who cares? you can throw it in the bin and make another batch in minutes.

It is said that the things we see in other people, are mostly a

reflection of ourselves. I wasn't having a pop at homebrew, but the

defence sprang right up just the same. I do want to be clear though

that it is not even close to as good as a *real* professional

production, though it isn't far off being as good as the cheaper

commercial ones like Donsbach and Livon, and what it misses out on in

encapsulation percentage you can overcome with more of it for a few

cents more (if you can tolerate it on the stomach). The only real

limitation is the unencapsulated proportion being the bowel tolerance

limit, so the less unencapsulated the more you can handle. If you can

also do that in a small volume of liquid then you can get into second

gear and then third.

I hope that clarifies my position; that not all commercial stuff is as

good as it pretends to be, and homebrew can make big inroads in the same

direction because of less constraints, but the really top notch stuff

just costs a lot of money to make, both in technology (hardware and

knowledgebase) and the raw materials. The vitamin C is only a couple of

percent of the cost.

Syringes are cheap though...

Regards

B

>

> Mark,

>

> Ok, got it now about your " skin crawling " because of what you are

> imagining stuff will taste like and not so much the answers you received,

> itself. That makes a difference.

>

> As far as your listed 's points:

>

> 1) " foul tasting stuff " .......................some of my members dislike

> the taste, but there are others like me that like the taste. Those liking

> the taste are just not as vocal.

>

> 2) " only marginally effective " ............I think most on the group are

> quite convinced that home made lipo-c is pretty effective, much better

> than

> plain vitamin c, and much cheaper than Livon's stuff. predicted

> about

> 70% encapsulation and that aint bad for the bucks.

>

> 3) " bowel tolerance issues " .............as far as I know, there are NONE.

> Everyone that makes the stuff says they can take much more Vit C using

> the

> homemade method than not.

>

> 4) " gloopy, need shaking and can't handle temperature

> changes " .......................whoo, boy! If the homemade stuff is made

> properly, there is very little separation, if any. Few on the list have

> separation problems. The talk on my group about " shaking " is in the

> pre-ultrasonic phase which involves initial dissolving of the components

> into a water solution. Once it is ultrasounded, it is pretty stable

> and will

> last a long time. As far as " gloopy " , I wouldn't describe it as such

> and I

> don't think my list members did that either. Not sure what you mean

> that it

> can't handle temperature changes. It is made at room temperature and

> can be

> stored at room temperature for a few days, but for really longer

> storage, it

> is better to put in the frig. If you don't want to do that, just make

> enough

> to last a few days.

>

> I am sorry you are living in poverty. However, until you actually invest

> in the equipment to make the stuff, I really don't think you have much

> rank

> in criticizing it. You are simply harvesting comments that seem to

> suit your

> mind-set. I would be ranked of living in poverty, myself. I would

> never go

> back to the more expensive Vit C tablets which I have taken for years

> in the

> past with all the fillers, etc.

>

> apology accepted,

>

> doug

>

> Re: LIPOSOMAL TECNIQUES AND INGREDIENTS

>

> > Hello Doug.

> >

> > You wrote:

> >> Interesting to hear that our group's answers made your skin crawl.

> >> Sorry I wasted the time to try to answer you.

> >

> > I find that very few folks have been devoted to eating disgusting

> > medicinals for any length of time - speaking as one who has, I

> believe I

> > have ample reason to feel crawly when it becomes obvious that ONE

> MORE is

> > under consideration...please, read on...

> >

> > You are referring here to , who has ONLY been wonderful and

> generous

> > to me:

> >> My, my, amazing how you want to take as gospel that of someone you

> agree

> >> with and not others.

> >

> >> If you want to agree with the bias of some one in the business of

> >> making a commercial product, go right ahead.

> >

> > Bearing in mind that is probably 10,000 miles away in another

> > country - and that when someone in this group said I was being cheap

> > because I couldn't manage to buy some Lugol's (when it's more like

> plain

> > old dead broke) - sent me the ingredients AT ZERO CHARGE all

> the way

> > from there, and has been very kind and generous in his info sharing as

> > well.

> >

> > Does this give me cause to consider his ideas credible & honest ?

> > Yes, I think so; because he has shown himself to be a decent and caring

> > individual, which is quite priceless in my opinion.

> >

> > Very cool, and encouraging, but:

> >> I like the taste of homemade lipo-c and it has been a health boon to

> >> many in my group as well as myself.

> >

> > It also seems like results & tastes vary very widely and have been

> posted

> > saying so in your group (which I do read carefully).

> >

> > Let's see if it is easy to debunk what said:

> >

> > 1. foul tasting stuff

> > 2. only marginally effective

> > 3. bowel tolerance issues

> > 4. gloopy, need shaking and can't handle temperature changes

> >

> > Seems to me that most of his points have been mentioned precisely &

> > recently by other (non-commercial) group members as their concerns too;

> > though they may have been worded differently.

> >

> > And further to 's credit, he concluded:

> >> " omg, this is one tough nut to crack, no wonder it's so expensive " .

> >> Home brew is worthwhile if cash is the main driver.

> >

> > Now, just to be clear - I am very careful about buying ANYTHING

> which may

> > take up space and/or money that I simply do not have.

> >

> > Which likely has you asking=> Am I just a whiney, cheap, old jerk ?

> >

> > Your call - but the facts are these - I've been very ill for years and

> > only lately have been improving; I live in mid-Vermont in a 58 year

> old,

> > tiny camper with no running water in winter and my only power is

> from an

> > extension cord.

> > It is sooo small in here that I have neither space nor power for a

> coffee

> > maker if I wanted one.

> >

> > So, yes - I did say this:

> >> > Needless to say - my concerns about spending big-$ (that I do not

> >> > have...) to make gloopy, wretched, foul-tasting stuff now CLEARLY

> >> > appear to have been well justified...Thank you !!!

> >

> > And soon I will likely try again to consume chaparral tea, daily;

> which is

> > just a bit hard to take...so until I see that there's a SERIOUSLY SOLID

> > method for making & consuming lipo-C which has about a 90% chance of

> > success for me...I can wait, watch, and learn from what others are

> doing.

> >

> > This method seems best and most rational to me.

> >

> > And specifically:

> > I apologize Doug, that my choice of words offended you.

> >

> > Best Wishes to All.

> >

> > mark

>

>

[Guest guest]

A small clarification (in case it matters):

Nothing I've written about myself is intended as any complaint or indication of

self-pity.

It simply IS what it IS.

There are people beyond the counting who 'make' alot more money yet live in

terrible squallor - often owing to addictions with tobacco, alcohol and/or worse

things.

Since all those things are absent from my life I actually live quite well in my

own opinion.

Many folks say things like 'just try it, it's -ONLY- $50 ! " and I can see where

they might be OK with that=> but for others that would mean no groceries, so it

is a matter for care & caution instead.

Perspective is everything, yes ?

Best Wishes to All !

mark