Re: The demise of guys?

[Guest guest]

Wow ,

Two good videos. Though maybe " off topic " I really did like the story about

Viravaidya's work to improve the lives of people in southeast Asia and yes, you

are right he's funny. The comments that follow the video are for the most part

thoughtful, intelligent and true. It's too bad that in North America and other

" developed " parts of the world a similar message isn't spread, but there are so

many religious and political hangups. I was astounded recently to read that in

terms of maternal and infant health and support, Canada ranks 19 and the US 25

on a global scale. As two of the richest countries in the world you think we'd

do better than that?!

I enjoyed watching Philip Zimbardo's presentation. LOTS of " food for thought "

there. I will be looking forward to seeing Bill's comments on this one. ASD's

aren't mentioned but it makes you go " hmmmmm. " A Vancouver psychologist best

known for his work with drug addicts has also weighed in on autism, definitely

leaning towards the " nurture " side of the debate:

http://drgabormate.com/autism-is-the-child-of-social-disconnection/ I liked

Zimbaro's upbeat presentation more though.

- Helen

>

> Greetings:

>

> I taped Dr. Phil yesterday as his topic was, " The demise of guys? " . I have

not finished watching the program as I had to go to class. I did do an Internet

search and found this video clip on the subject.

>

> Off topic: (I just happened to see another video clip in class from this

website that highlighted Mechai Viravaidya who has been creating and running

innovative family planning and poverty reduction programs throughout Southeast

Asia. He truly is inspiring and a hoot. If you are interested you can watch

him @

http://www.ted.com/talks/mechai_viravaidya_how_mr_condom_made_thailand_a_better_\

place.html)

>

>

> Philip Zimbardo: The demise of guys?

> http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html

>

> When I watched this I was reminded that most of the issues that come up in

AS/NT relationships are addressed in this clip. Is it AS or just male/female

relationship issues???????????

>

> Comments?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

Not a rebuttal, but would like you to expand a bit if you could.

Anything you say is well worth considering. Now, wasn't talking about ASDs and I

suppose to some extent yes it was simplified, I'll assume this was a heavily

edited video .. a lot of folks won't watch something that's longer than that

because they don't have time. The video's title was to grab attention, and I

thought the point of the whole video was to get folks thinking and talking and

asking, are today's youth, young men in particular, more disconnected from their

peers than in the past?

If the stats Zimbardo cited about hours spent online are even half true .. holy

smokes. There certainly was nothing like that back in our day. We had to do

things like go out to movies, go bowling, swimming, skating, fly kites, play

pick up games of baseball or broom ball, basketball, dodgeball (I think that

one's been banned now) go to dances and we all walked and/or rode the bus across

the city together. It was safe to ride the bus back then! I've heard stories of

neighbour's kids being mugged and beaten on city busses and there seems to be

nothing anyone can do about it so everyone drives their kids now. So much for

exercise, so much for the environment. And yes, we girls skipped rope, sometimes

we got the boys to join us too, LOL. We would ride our bicycles in big groups of

15 - 20 kids, 20 miles into the hills to go to our favourite swimming hole. That

sounds so .. Norman Rockwellesque today. *wistful sighs* AS or NS I think there

was more opportunity for kids to learn the social game, learn about life,

support each other more in the past than today.

My thoughts follow my rant awhile ago about the way that children have to be

raised today. There is very limited spontaneous play, everything is organized,

supervised. Despite the fact that the population is considerably larger than

back in " our day " there isn't the same sense of community, due to smaller

families and might I add highly are mobile as well. As kids we had tons of

friends. Today's kids are often alone in a crowd. I'm not saying people should

have larger families or not move (many don't have a choice.) But it seems to me,

just my opinion, that feeling like part of a tribe, a community, is important

and that's what is lacking for today's kids, so they seek these things online.

Nor would I suggest video games and Facebook are *causing* social ills.

However, I do think that over reliance on them is a symptom of something that's

missing in their lives that they need.

I went to the same school from kindergarten to grade eight, but that is rare for

today's kids. They don't get to know their neighbours or have the benefit of

working things out with peers. My oldest friend and I first met in grade two.

Throughout the early years of elementary school we were alternately best friends

and worst enemies. We had quite a rivalry going on LOL. By grade 8 we were best

friends and have been so ever since, even though we live thousands of miles

apart.

Early on in my self discovery of AS I used to think that life would have been

better for people like my brother who was profoundly AS, if AS had been known

back then. But now I'm not so sure it would have made much difference if he

faced the pressures that kids face growing up today. AS or NS, we are moving

forward at an insane speed. We can't turn the clock back on technology, but we

could simplify our lifestyles and reconnect with our communities. That would be

healthier for both AS and NS. I'm ranting again, LOL.

- Helen

> [ snip ]

> >> Philip Zimbardo: The demise of guys?

> >> http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html

> [ snip ]

>

> - Bill, ...AS, ...opinionated

>

> --

> WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

> http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

>

[Guest guest]

Newland wrote:

> Bill:

>

> " WHY " simplistic? Can U expand on this? WHY is he off his mark?

I refer you to the " Digital Divide " concept, which appeared a little

after 2000 or so. There's a considerable literature, although the term

itself has faded some.

It's *all* germane to Zimbardo's topic, but he didn't tale much/any

notice of it. As he said, his job was to raise an alarm, not provide

solutions.

His " alarm " , in my very, very personal opinion, was/is a straw man.

> Do U not think the male gender is being raised to take on this role?

" This role " means... ??

> He is talking about today's generation and not the one we were raised

> in. Those days are long gone.

" Those days' " environment is long gone; yes, for some. Our " societies "

certainly are changing in response; yes, probably for all.

But the basic needs and desires of the human animal remain. It

isn't all technology; I don't see them as having changed. What we *do

see* changing is the manner of their satisfaction - not surprisingly.

But what Zimbardo sees, in his world, isn't what I see in mine. Hence

my disappointment.

> What is defined as being a man today

> is different then it was when " we " were growing up. Being a man

> today is more than paying the bills and house expenses.

It *always* was more than that. ...Never was *only* that.

The *setting* in which a " man " operates, the context, is all

important IMO. It's the modern *context* which is changing, and gender

roles (not just for men) are changing in response to - in step with -

all the issues positive *and* negative implied by " Digital Divide " .

>

> Curious as to your take on this.

>

> Best.

>

>

>

>

> You called? To little avail, I'm afraid. I was disappointed by

> Zimbardo - his " take " IMO was way too simplistic. Maybe that's what

> happens with complex subjects when squeezed into the limited time

> that TED provides. But also I think he was more than a little off the

> mark.

- Bill, ...AS, ...opinionated

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

> Philip Zimbardo: The demise of guys?

> http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html

>

> When I watched this I was reminded that most of the issues that come up in

AS/NT relationships are addressed in this clip. Is it AS or just male/female

relationship issues???????????

>

> Comments?

>

I agree with Zimbardo. He's also not the first to raise the issue.

I can't say that I find the title of the video all that relevant to the

topic, but that's another issue.

IMO, the arousal issue is very real for those who often substitute the

heightened stimulation of online entertainment for that of the more

mundane real world. Not only does it shape their expectations and

behavior, it deprives them of opportunities to hone social skills and

increase their physical fitness.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

> What is defined as being a man today is different then it was when " we " were

growing up. Being a man today is more than paying the bills and house expenses.

>

And for that, I am grateful. Now that women are more financially

independent, they can afford to adjust their expectations upward. Being

a provider is not enough. Today's men are expected to have attributes

like decent social skills and attention to personal hygiene.

If they 'manscape' their body hair, so much the better.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

Forgive me if I interject sis, but I've read some Canadian stats recently that

the youth female suicide rate is rising while the male youth suicide rate is

declining though still percentage wise higher then the females. This article

also makes a case in point of one down side of social media:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/new-health/health-news/youth-suicide-\

rates-rising-among-canadian-girls/article2389777/

Female bullying is definitely on the rise and some articles say it is now more

frequent than male bullying and that it's more insidious and damaging than

traditional male bullying, especially in schools and colleges.

In this rather disturbing summary (the full report is online) while physical and

sexual assaults against children are committed overwhelmingly by a male family

member, most homicides of Canadian children are pepetrated fathers 54% of the

time, and mothers 34% of the time. 34% is not an insignificant number. In infant

homicide, mothers were slightly more likely to be the pepetrator. Infants were

disproportinately the highest percentage of homicide victims and infant boys

were more likely to be killed than infant girls.

http://owjn.org/owjn_2009/women-like-me/children/286-new-statistics-on-family-vi\

olence-against-children-and-youth This report does not take into account

psychological abuse of children. Spousal violence against men is most likely

under-reported, as this Canadian story outlines:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/02/22/f-vp-smol.html

I hate to say it but in my own experience, that except for my mentally ill and

alcoholic ex who I fled 35 years ago, the most painful and lasting hurt in my

life was perpetrated by other women. This is one area where we haven't " come a

long way baby. "

There is no arguing that men, who still hold the balance of social and economic

power, still have the upper hand right now. But when the scales balance,

unfortunately so will the numbers of male to female abusers, because it's about

power, not gender. You have studied these issues at university and you may have

a different point of view on it, so I would respect and defer to your knowledge

and education there.

- Helen

>

> Bill

> Thanks! I would respectively disagree. Some research has shown that the

majority of violence is perpetuated by males against females and males. Males

also have the highest suicide completion rate. WHY would there be no disconnect

among your gender?

> Just curious.

>

>