Re: Update Kelman vs. Kramer

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jackie.

Go to: _http://toxlaw.com/chatboards/blackmold/_

(http://toxlaw.com/chatboards/blackmold/) and then click on the black mold

board.

Will show you what is being said. Warning! This is an adversarial

chatboard over the mold issue. NOT a nurturing one like Sickbuildings.

Post: Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH! KELMAN vs. KRAMER

Posted by Myco X on 4/10/08

NEWS FLASH!: KELMAN VS. KRAMER

With all the families who have lost everything because of

misinformation over the mold issue, Dr. Kelman is now

claiming the words “altered his under oath statements†have

caused him emotional distress in his suit against Sharon

Kramer!

Wait'll this clown gets hauled in front a Congressional

investigation -- if Sharon can manage to get his undies

in a bunch for this, they're gonna have to bring diapers

for him in Washington.

Re: Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH! KELMAN vs. KRAMER

Posted by BB on 4/10/08

X boy,

How MANY families would that be?

Re: Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH! KELMAN vs. KRAMER

Posted by _ff_

(http://counsel.net/cgi-bin/chatscripts/mailform.cgi?uid=xxrrdd & dmn=ugeuskl.fwl & \

name=ff & subject=Re:+Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH!+KELMAN+vs.+KRAMER

) on 4/10/08

Maybe the real basis of the emotional stress are not the

words, but getting caught?

ff

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[Guest guest]

WEll, if he is SO STRESSED, allow me to PLAY DOCTOR and advise him to seek

PROFESSIONAL EVALUATION.

The doctors I HIGHLY recommend are: Barrett, Gots, Herman

Staudenmeyer, Lees-Haley, Abba Terr to cite a few. As they are SO highly

QUALIFIED and they can SORT out the truth LOL

Maybe he needs anti-psychotic oops, I mean anti-anxiety drugs for this

EMOTIONAL distress. As I am SURE that a MMPI will confirm if he is LYING and

as a

mold " not harmful " advocate that he is.

Now, if I am NOT mistaken, if a person becomes a PUBLIC figure then

stressors like this appear to be COMMON place sooooooooo, maybe he needs to

crawl

into a hole and step out of being a " public " person????

" Medical research has made such progress, that there are practically no

healthy people any more. " – Aldous Huxley

" ....Perfume to you, to me is excrement. " - Pope

I will not have my life narrowed down

.. I will not bow down to somebody else's whim or to someone else's

ignorance. -bell hooks

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

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[Guest guest]

Can someone please turn this into a tiny URL so I can

get there to comment?

--- snk1955@... wrote:

SNIP>

_http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=2d17b9970d7bf18de9521bee9e990499

> & invocationType=keyword_rollover & ie=UTF-8_

>

(http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=2d17b9970d7bf18de9521bee9e990499 & i\

nvocationType=keyword_rollover & ie

> =UTF-8)

>

> Thanks,

> Sharon K

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check

> out AOL Travel Guides.

>

>

(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

This is a bad link. It doesn't take you to the black mold thread.

Barth

---

sac> Dear All,

sac> As many of you know, I am in litigation with the authors of the ACOEM Mold

sac> Statement, who are also the authors of the US Chamber Mold Statement.

sac> Basically, both of these papers say YOU can't be sick from mold.

sac> You all are going to love this one. With all the families who have lost

sac> everything because of

sac> misinformation over the mold issue, Dr. Kelman, a co-author of the two

sac> papers is now claiming that my words of “altered his under oath

statements” have

sac> caused him emotional distress.

sac> They are discussing the case on the adversarial chatboard of ToxLaw, the

sac> Black Mold Board. One of the naysayers is asking " what people who have lost

sac> everything? "

sac> Will someone from this board do me a favor and go on to the Toxic Tort

Black

sac> Mold to let them know this is not a game???? People's lives are being

sac> destroyed.

sac>

_http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=2d17b9970d7bf18de9521bee9e990499

sac> & invocationType=keyword_rollover & ie=UTF-8_

sac>

(http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=2d17b9970d7bf18de9521bee9e990499 & i\

nvocationType=keyword_rollover & ie

sac> =UTF-8)

sac> Thanks,

sac> Sharon K

sac> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

sac>

(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

sac>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/11/2008 3:00:42 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

glypella@... writes:

This is a bad link. It doesn't take you to the black mold thread.

Barth

Search the words " toxic tort " Then go to the ToxLaw chatboards. Click on

the Black Mold board.

Sharon K.

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[Guest guest]

Angel,

I don't really know what he is thinking with this. But it seems very odd to

me. The ONLY words that are part of this lawsuit are " altered his under

oath statements " . That's it. With all that has been written by MANY about the

deceit in science of the ACOEM paper he authored, with people speaking out

about it in front of the Boston City Council and other place, with the Wall

Street Journal writing a front page article about the deceit of ACOEM....and my

five little words of " altered his under oath statements " is the sole cause of

Dr. Kelman's emotional distress??? I am blown away by this newest claim.

The whole thing seems to be getting more ridiculous by the day.

If these five little words are so stressful, wonder how he would hold up if

HIS family was severely sick from mold and he couldn't get any medical help

because the ACOEM paper said their illnesses indicative of poisoning was

scientifically proven not plausible. Wish there were only five words in my

life

that was the cause of stress! Oh Horrors!

Sharon

In a message dated 4/10/2008 8:10:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ntefusa@... writes:

WEll, if he is SO STRESSED, allow me to PLAY DOCTOR and advise him to seek

PROFESSIONAL EVALUATION.

The doctors I HIGHLY recommend are: Barrett, Gots, Herman

Staudenmeyer, Lees-Haley, Abba Terr to cite a few. As they are SO highly

QUALIFIED and they can SORT out the truth LOL

Maybe he needs anti-psychotic oops, I mean anti-anxiety drugs for this

EMOTIONAL distress. As I am SURE that a MMPI will confirm if he is LYING and

as a

mold " not harmful " advocate that he is.

Now, if I am NOT mistaken, if a person becomes a PUBLIC figure then

stressors like this appear to be COMMON place sooooooooo, maybe he needs to

crawl

into a hole and step out of being a " public " person????

" Medical research has made such progress, that there are practically no

healthy people any more. " – Aldous Huxley

" ....Perfume to you, to me is excrement. " - Pope

I will not have my life narrowed down

.. I will not bow down to somebody else's whim or to someone else's

ignorance. -bell hooks

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

[Guest guest]

Hey Ginny,

You must have missed the meeting in December of 2004, where Mulvey

spoke. Dr. Sommer and Josh came in for it. KC was there.

Segal, and many others...about 100 people. Dr. Johanning came in

and

gave the following speech about the deceit of ACOEM and others. Maura

Hennigan was the driving force for this meeting.

Dr.Johanning's speech in Boston

I feel I am qualified to speak on this subject because I am an

occupational physician and I have worked in research and have

worked several government agencies such as EPA, CDC, & HUD. I

have been involved with this issue for the past 15 years in NYC.

We have had several symposiums and have brought scientists

together 5 times who will be more than willing to collaborate

our findings. Which have already been published.

I know the Washington office of the Budget Management did a

study of the structure and situations of schools and concluded

that a third of the schools have serious Indoor Air Quality

problems and that many of these are related to water intrusion.

The press picked up on this issue many years ago, much more

than the medical community I'm sad to say, and probably got

the word out.

I have seen over the last couple of years organized effects

by the insurance industry and their advocates to defuse the

issue and recently a report and some papers have come out on

this issue saying we don't see a connection. I am a member of

the American College of Occupational & Environmental Medicine.

They state they have a so-called paper that concludes that we

don't think the evidence that connects mold in particular, mold

to adverse health effects. If you go and look how this paper was

generated you will realize, and I have legal documents to prove

this, that this wasn't an objective, free discussion within our

membership. But rather a paper that was pushed in such a secret

manner, was pushed through the committee in order to use that as

a statement against doctors who think that there is a problem.

Following this came the IOM paper and let me mention a couple of

names here and documents that have come over the last couple of

years, that makes it very difficult for doctors out there who

don't know much about the issue to really educate themselves and

if they are going to the internet or pick up a medical journal

they would come up with papers which essentially conclude, we

don't see a connection between the problems of mold exposure and

indoor health quality problems and adverse effects.

There are other papers out there and we should mention this and

probably it's a little more removed from this. But Harriett Burge

who was the group Harvard School of Public Health put together a

group, to my knowledge, for the IOM two (2) years ago. She is the

same person who in 2002 also attended a meeting organized by

Dr.Ron Gots, Globaltox in Washington which basically had all the

leading defense experts there saying, we don't think there is a

problem with mold. She also went to the press and media in the

years 2002-2003 stating we don't think there is a problem. She

chaired this committee, she called many of the member on the

committee. Interesting enough the conclusion now of the report

that came out recently that supported basically the CDC and many

other people saying, we don't think there is a connection between

toxic mold and many of the claims that people are doing.

I think this process very undemocratic, secretive and that

there was not enough public input and opportunity for doctors

who are more involved with the research and care of patients to

address these issues. I think we need to restudy this and to

reconvene a group. I am a member of the MPha and feel they can do

an objective look at this.

There were only two physicians on this committee. Two physicians

who had not really worked in this field. So a lot of the people who

were members of the committee, and they are very qualified and

good minded people, but if you look at their publication record

and if you look at some of their opinions that they had before they

went into the committee, you can already see that the conclusion

that came out of it was not really based on what I would think is

science and knowledge that is published in the papers. Several

members of the IOM committee had written their opinion and it was

sent to " higher-ups " to change, were not allowed to comment on the

changes.

But its a good start I think, but the conclusions are not based on

the facts, I would say. I think we have enough knowledge out there

and that's what the committee, the IOM committee chopped off their

report.

Knowing is not enough, we must apply.

Living is not enough, we must do.

Dr. Eckhart Johanning

Here is a link that writes of this one:

_http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health_risks_h

igh_costs/3288/_

(http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health_risks_hig\

h_costs/3288/)

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

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[Guest guest]

TO me it appears that it is a " defense " tactic to try and gain more

" support " for their side....

but as you know if you are " CALIMING " injury the burden fo proof is on the

person ....so. it follows that he has /hadto be under a doctors care, been

" SEEN " etc. Then again if meds WERE prescribed did he in fact TAKE them.

Then of course you get to have him go to an IME.

THis is what I posted to toxlaw and the response I just got backchannel, I

think my statement really sums it up:

" Thanks for the post which so adaplty depicts the truth and reality of the

underlying cause for the good doctor's emotional stress.

ff

-------------- Original message --------------

From: Angel@... (Angel)

> The following message was emailed to you via counsel.net

> in response to one of your postings on the counsel.net website.

> If an email address was provided, you can email the person

> who posted this message by hitting " reply " to this email.

>

> Please tell a friend about counsel.net!

> ================================================================

>

> From: Angel

> Email: Angel@...

> Subject: Re: Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH

>

> Message:

> ========

>

> Appears to me that getting caught perjuring

> oneself would induce stress. Therefore, it

> follows that his " stress " is self-induced and

> therefore non-compensable.

>

> Analgous to someone slitting their w rists then

> trying to blame the manufacturer of the knife.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> URL:

> Remote-IP: 207.200.116.68 "

" Medical research has made such progress, that there are practically no

healthy people any more. " – Aldous Huxley

" ....Perfume to you, to me is excrement. " - Pope

I will not have my life narrowed down

.. I will not bow down to somebody else's whim or to someone else's

ignorance. -bell hooks

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

[Guest guest]

Hey Ginny,

I think we must have a disconnect in this communication. This is how I

understand it: You indicated that the Boston City Council never heard

information about the deceit of ACOEM in their meetings.

Your quote: " I have been at virtually every Boston City Council hearing

since 2001, dealing with Indoor Air Quality and have testified or sent testimony

to be read into the record, and do not remember ACOEM being on the table. "

I showed you Johanning speaking before the Boston City Council on that exact

subject. (see below). You tell me you were there and witnessed Dr.

Johanning's speech. What am I missing from this discussion? Did you think I

was

talking about something more recent than Dec 2004? Is that where the

disconnect

is?

Sharon

In a message dated 4/11/2008 12:23:35 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ginloi@... writes:

Sharon - It was I who arranged the venue. My Teachers Union - the

Boston Teachers Union. They bore the expense for the 1,000 seat

capacity hall.

FYI - There were TWO Indoor Air Quality hearings that day that I

testified at. One was at Boston City Hall in the morning and the

second was the evening hearing where MY union graciously hosted the

event. Ginny

I sat with Dr. Johanning, Dr. Sommer, Josh and Atty. Rob Doyle who

won the landmark s mold case in Massachusetts. My Union

representatives spoke at the hearing, at my request. I have written

many articles for my union brothers and sisters to become more

informed on the matter and following my trip to D.C. in 2002, for the

Melina Bill (Cong. Conyers), the AFT - American Federation of

Teachers AFL-CIO, sent me a letter confirming its support of the

Melina Bill, in behalf of a fellow union brother/sister.

I was under the impression from your post that it has " recently " been

on a Boston City Council agenda or hearing. The City of Boston is

charged with its " own " buildings, not the machinations of a " special

interest group " which is the ACOEM. Of course, individual testimony,

as you shared below may always include " protected speech " under the

public forum context. The Center for School Mold Help has a DVD of

the hearing.

My testimony is on that DVD. The hearing was not an ACOEM

issue/forum; it was a joint effort between the Boston City Council,

with Segal, from Cong. Conyers office present, to gather

testimony and raise awareness on the health effects of mold, to

support the Melina Bill.

>

> Hey Ginny,

>

> You must have missed the meeting in December of 2004, where

Mulvey

> spoke. Dr. Sommer and Josh came in for it. KC was there.

> Segal, and many others...about 100 people. Dr.

Johanning came in and

> gave the following speech about the deceit of ACOEM and others.

Maura

> Hennigan was the driving force for this meeting.

>

>

> Dr.Johanning' Dr.Johanning'<WBR

>

> I feel I am qualified to speak on this subject because I am an

> occupational physician and I have worked in research and have

> worked several government agencies such as EPA, CDC, & HUD. I

> have been involved with this issue for the past 15 years in NYC.

> We have had several symposiums and have brought scientists

> together 5 times who will be more than willing to collaborate

> our findings. Which have already been published.

>

> I know the Washington office of the Budget Management did a

> study of the structure and situations of schools and concluded

> that a third of the schools have serious Indoor Air Quality

> problems and that many of these are related to water intrusion.

> The press picked up on this issue many years ago, much more

> than the medical community I'm sad to say, and probably got

> the word out.

>

> I have seen over the last couple of years organized effects

> by the insurance industry and their advocates to defuse the

> issue and recently a report and some papers have come out on

> this issue saying we don't see a connection. I am a member of

> the American College of Occupational & Environmental Medicine.

> They state they have a so-called paper that concludes that we

> don't think the evidence that connects mold in particular, mold

> to adverse health effects. If you go and look how this paper was

> generated you will realize, and I have legal documents to prove

> this, that this wasn't an objective, free discussion within our

> membership. But rather a paper that was pushed in such a secret

> manner, was pushed through the committee in order to use that as

> a statement against doctors who think that there is a problem.

>

> Following this came the IOM paper and let me mention a couple of

> names here and documents that have come over the last couple of

> years, that makes it very difficult for doctors out there who

> don't know much about the issue to really educate themselves and

> if they are going to the internet or pick up a medical journal

> they would come up with papers which essentially conclude, we

> don't see a connection between the problems of mold exposure and

> indoor health quality problems and adverse effects.

>

> There are other papers out there and we should mention this and

> probably it's a little more removed from this. But Harriett Burge

> who was the group Harvard School of Public Health put together a

> group, to my knowledge, for the IOM two (2) years ago. She is the

> same person who in 2002 also attended a meeting organized by

> Dr.Ron Gots, Globaltox in Washington which basically had all the

> leading defense experts there saying, we don't think there is a

> problem with mold. She also went to the press and media in the

> years 2002-2003 stating we don't think there is a problem. She

> chaired this committee, she called many of the member on the

> committee. Interesting enough the conclusion now of the report

> that came out recently that supported basically the CDC and many

> other people saying, we don't think there is a connection between

> toxic mold and many of the claims that people are doing.

>

> I think this process very undemocratic, secretive and that

> there was not enough public input and opportunity for doctors

> who are more involved with the research and care of patients to

> address these issues. I think we need to restudy this and to

> reconvene a group. I am a member of the MPha and feel they can do

> an objective look at this.

>

> There were only two physicians on this committee. Two physicians

> who had not really worked in this field. So a lot of the people who

> were members of the committee, and they are very qualified and

> good minded people, but if you look at their publication record

> and if you look at some of their opinions that they had before they

> went into the committee, you can already see that the conclusion

> that came out of it was not really based on what I would think is

> science and knowledge that is published in the papers. Several

> members of the IOM committee had written their opinion and it was

> sent to " higher-ups " to change, were not allowed to comment on the

> changes.

>

> But its a good start I think, but the conclusions are not based on

> the facts, I would say. I think we have enough knowledge out there

> and that's what the committee, the IOM committee chopped off their

> report.

>

> Knowing is not enough, we must apply.

> Living is not enough, we must do.

>

> Dr. Eckhart Johanning

>

> Here is a link that writes of this one:

>

__http://www.upi.http://www.upihttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.upihttp:/_

(http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health)

_risks_h

> igh_costs/3288/

>

(_http://www.upi.http://www.upihttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.upihttp:/_

(http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health)

_risks_high__risks_high_risks

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

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[Guest guest]

Sharon -

I have been at virtually every Boston City Council hearing since 2001,

dealing with Indoor Air Quality and have testified or sent testimony

to be read into the record, and do not remember ACOEM being on the

table. The city is charged with inspecting and repairing their own

buildings. It does not seem to be germane to the issue.

ginloi

>

>

> Angel,

>

> I don't really know what he is thinking with this. But it seems

very odd to

> me. The ONLY words that are part of this lawsuit are " altered his

under

> oath statements " . That's it. With all that has been written by

MANY about the

> deceit in science of the ACOEM paper he authored, with people

speaking out

> about it in front of the Boston City Council and other place, with

the Wall

> Street Journal writing a front page article about the deceit of

ACOEM....and my

> five little words of " altered his under oath statements " is the

sole cause of

> Dr. Kelman's emotional distress??? I am blown away by this newest

claim.

> The whole thing seems to be getting more ridiculous by the day.

>

> If these five little words are so stressful, wonder how he would

hold up if

> HIS family was severely sick from mold and he couldn't get any

medical help

> because the ACOEM paper said their illnesses indicative of poisoning

was

> scientifically proven not plausible. Wish there were only five

words in my life

> that was the cause of stress! Oh Horrors!

>

> Sharon

>

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 4/10/2008 8:10:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> ntefusa@... writes:

>

>

>

>

> WEll, if he is SO STRESSED, allow me to PLAY DOCTOR and advise him

to seek

> PROFESSIONAL EVALUATION.

>

> The doctors I HIGHLY recommend are: Barrett, Gots,

Herman

> Staudenmeyer, Lees-Haley, Abba Terr to cite a few. As they are SO

highly

> QUALIFIED and they can SORT out the truth LOL

>

> Maybe he needs anti-psychotic oops, I mean anti-anxiety drugs for this

> EMOTIONAL distress. As I am SURE that a MMPI will confirm if he is

LYING and

> as a

> mold " not harmful " advocate that he is.

>

> Now, if I am NOT mistaken, if a person becomes a PUBLIC figure then

> stressors like this appear to be COMMON place sooooooooo, maybe he

needs to

> crawl

> into a hole and step out of being a " public " person????

>

>

>

>

>

> " Medical research has made such progress, that there are

practically no

> healthy people any more. " †" Aldous Huxley

>

> " ....Perfume to you, to me is excrement. " - Pope

>

> I will not have my life narrowed down

> . I will not bow down to somebody else's whim or to someone else's

> ignorance. -bell hooks

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

>

(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey,

I have no idea what he is doing. I just find it difficult to believe that

with all that has been written published by MANY about the deceit of ACOEM, my

five little words in 2005 of " altered his under oath statement " could be the

sole cause of one's emotional distress. And those are the ONLY words that I

have been sued for. That's it. NOTHING else.

Sharon K

In a message dated 4/11/2008 12:23:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ntefusa@... writes:

TO me it appears that it is a " defense " tactic to try and gain more

" support " for their side....

but as you know if you are " CALIMING " injury the burden fo proof is on the

person ....so. it follows that he has /hadto be under a doctors care, been

" SEEN " etc. Then again if meds WERE prescribed did he in fact TAKE them.

Then of course you get to have him go to an IME.

THis is what I posted to toxlaw and the response I just got backchannel, I

think my statement really sums it up:

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

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[Guest guest]

ACOEM was not on the table in front of the Boston City Council. The Melina

Bill was. I was there

**************

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AOL Money & amp; Finance.

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/11/2008 1:47:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

gsgrl2000@... writes:

Sharon and group,

I have just posted my comment. Hope it helps. Feel free to read at

the link below that Sharon provided.

Dana

Thank you, Dana. It's good for the naysayers to hear from new voices.

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money &

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[Guest guest]

Sharon - It was I who arranged the venue. My Teachers Union - the

Boston Teachers Union. They bore the expense for the 1,000 seat

capacity hall.

FYI - There were TWO Indoor Air Quality hearings that day that I

testified at. One was at Boston City Hall in the morning and the

second was the evening hearing where MY union graciously hosted the

event. Ginny

I sat with Dr. Johanning, Dr. Sommer, Josh and Atty. Rob Doyle who

won the landmark s mold case in Massachusetts. My Union

representatives spoke at the hearing, at my request. I have written

many articles for my union brothers and sisters to become more

informed on the matter and following my trip to D.C. in 2002, for the

Melina Bill (Cong. Conyers), the AFT - American Federation of

Teachers AFL-CIO, sent me a letter confirming its support of the

Melina Bill, in behalf of a fellow union brother/sister.

I was under the impression from your post that it has " recently " been

on a Boston City Council agenda or hearing. The City of Boston is

charged with its " own " buildings, not the machinations of a " special

interest group " which is the ACOEM. Of course, individual testimony,

as you shared below may always include " protected speech " under the

public forum context. The Center for School Mold Help has a DVD of

the hearing.

My testimony is on that DVD. The hearing was not an ACOEM

issue/forum; it was a joint effort between the Boston City Council,

with Segal, from Cong. Conyers office present, to gather

testimony and raise awareness on the health effects of mold, to

support the Melina Bill.

>

> Hey Ginny,

>

> You must have missed the meeting in December of 2004, where

Mulvey

> spoke. Dr. Sommer and Josh came in for it. KC was there.

> Segal, and many others...about 100 people. Dr.

Johanning came in and

> gave the following speech about the deceit of ACOEM and others.

Maura

> Hennigan was the driving force for this meeting.

>

>

> Dr.Johanning's speech in Boston

>

> I feel I am qualified to speak on this subject because I am an

> occupational physician and I have worked in research and have

> worked several government agencies such as EPA, CDC, & HUD. I

> have been involved with this issue for the past 15 years in NYC.

> We have had several symposiums and have brought scientists

> together 5 times who will be more than willing to collaborate

> our findings. Which have already been published.

>

> I know the Washington office of the Budget Management did a

> study of the structure and situations of schools and concluded

> that a third of the schools have serious Indoor Air Quality

> problems and that many of these are related to water intrusion.

> The press picked up on this issue many years ago, much more

> than the medical community I'm sad to say, and probably got

> the word out.

>

> I have seen over the last couple of years organized effects

> by the insurance industry and their advocates to defuse the

> issue and recently a report and some papers have come out on

> this issue saying we don't see a connection. I am a member of

> the American College of Occupational & Environmental Medicine.

> They state they have a so-called paper that concludes that we

> don't think the evidence that connects mold in particular, mold

> to adverse health effects. If you go and look how this paper was

> generated you will realize, and I have legal documents to prove

> this, that this wasn't an objective, free discussion within our

> membership. But rather a paper that was pushed in such a secret

> manner, was pushed through the committee in order to use that as

> a statement against doctors who think that there is a problem.

>

> Following this came the IOM paper and let me mention a couple of

> names here and documents that have come over the last couple of

> years, that makes it very difficult for doctors out there who

> don't know much about the issue to really educate themselves and

> if they are going to the internet or pick up a medical journal

> they would come up with papers which essentially conclude, we

> don't see a connection between the problems of mold exposure and

> indoor health quality problems and adverse effects.

>

> There are other papers out there and we should mention this and

> probably it's a little more removed from this. But Harriett Burge

> who was the group Harvard School of Public Health put together a

> group, to my knowledge, for the IOM two (2) years ago. She is the

> same person who in 2002 also attended a meeting organized by

> Dr.Ron Gots, Globaltox in Washington which basically had all the

> leading defense experts there saying, we don't think there is a

> problem with mold. She also went to the press and media in the

> years 2002-2003 stating we don't think there is a problem. She

> chaired this committee, she called many of the member on the

> committee. Interesting enough the conclusion now of the report

> that came out recently that supported basically the CDC and many

> other people saying, we don't think there is a connection between

> toxic mold and many of the claims that people are doing.

>

> I think this process very undemocratic, secretive and that

> there was not enough public input and opportunity for doctors

> who are more involved with the research and care of patients to

> address these issues. I think we need to restudy this and to

> reconvene a group. I am a member of the MPha and feel they can do

> an objective look at this.

>

> There were only two physicians on this committee. Two physicians

> who had not really worked in this field. So a lot of the people who

> were members of the committee, and they are very qualified and

> good minded people, but if you look at their publication record

> and if you look at some of their opinions that they had before they

> went into the committee, you can already see that the conclusion

> that came out of it was not really based on what I would think is

> science and knowledge that is published in the papers. Several

> members of the IOM committee had written their opinion and it was

> sent to " higher-ups " to change, were not allowed to comment on the

> changes.

>

> But its a good start I think, but the conclusions are not based on

> the facts, I would say. I think we have enough knowledge out there

> and that's what the committee, the IOM committee chopped off their

> report.

>

> Knowing is not enough, we must apply.

> Living is not enough, we must do.

>

> Dr. Eckhart Johanning

>

> Here is a link that writes of this one:

>

_http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health

_risks_h

> igh_costs/3288/_

>

(http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health

_risks_high_costs/3288/)

>

>

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon and group,

I have just posted my comment. Hope it helps. Feel free to read at

the link below that Sharon provided.

Dana

>

> Thanks, Jackie.

>

> Go to: _http://toxlaw.com/chatboards/blackmold/_

> (http://toxlaw.com/chatboards/blackmold/) and then click on the

black mold board.

>

> Will show you what is being said. Warning! This is an

adversarial

> chatboard over the mold issue. NOT a nurturing one like

Sickbuildings.

>

>

> Post: Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH! KELMAN vs. KRAMER

> Posted by Myco X on 4/10/08

> NEWS FLASH!: KELMAN VS. KRAMER

> With all the families who have lost everything because of

> misinformation over the mold issue, Dr. Kelman is now

> claiming the words “altered his under oath statements†have

> caused him emotional distress in his suit against Sharon

> Kramer!

> Wait'll this clown gets hauled in front a Congressional

> investigation -- if Sharon can manage to get his undies

> in a bunch for this, they're gonna have to bring diapers

> for him in Washington.

> Re: Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH! KELMAN vs. KRAMER

> Posted by BB on 4/10/08

>

> X boy,

> How MANY families would that be?

>

> Re: Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH! KELMAN vs. KRAMER

> Posted by _ff_

> (http://counsel.net/cgi-bin/chatscripts/mailform.cgi?

uid=xxrrdd & dmn=ugeuskl.fwl & name=ff & subject=Re:+Whuh...whuh....WHAAAAH!

+KELMAN+vs.+KRAMER

> ) on 4/10/08

>

>

> Maybe the real basis of the emotional stress are not the

> words, but getting caught?

> ff

>

>

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon -

The ACOEM is one piece in this mold mess. There is no disconnect.

In the workplace context, which is what I have focused on, primarily

the classroom, the sick child and the sick teacher (or the many who

have had or died of cancer in my school,) was my focus - it is what

drove me to law school. That was my battle.

There is NO disconnect. My medical proof came from lung biopsies.

And, proof from my classroom. There was joint effort from my union

and my medical documentation. This was way before the BTU hall was

donated for the hearing. I had spoken to the rank and file at union

meetings about the mold issue.

There was no ACOEM involvement. I became aware of some information

much later.

Since it is in litigation, I will not comment on it. It muddies the

waters. Everyone has something to say. This forum is not the court,

where the issues will be decided.

My focus was workplace retaliation, whistleblower involvement, civil

liberties, and protection of the children. I was told it was not the

problem of NIOSH. " We don't protect children, only workers. " This

material was sent to the then Congressman ph Moakely (who was a

long time colleague of Cong. Conyers) and in whose neighborhood, my

school is. This dates back to 2000-2001. The ACOEM paper and

controversy surrounding it, is subsequent to that time.

There was a variety of presentations that (December, 2004) evening.

One woman got up and sang a song she wrote about mold. There were

contractor/ building experts who told of the building envelope being

penetrated by water, several slide presentations ( Dr. Somer did

one), tables which had displays and handouts (I had one, as did other

teachers using the forum as a 'teachable moment.')

Taken as a whole, it was a multimedia event. My late father (also a

Boston Teachers Union member) attended and waited to help me carry my

boxes of handouts to the car, after the last speaker testified. It

ran from about 6 p.m. or so until 11 p.m.

Dr. Johanning is one of my doctors. Enough said.

I am sorry that other hearings of this kind have not been held across

the country. Under the Constitution, people who post to this

wonderful forum are capable of having such hearings, where

information is shared and awareness is raised.

It would be nice if everyone who attended from wherever, went back

and found a hall, at no expense, or a public building and had such a

hearing as was had in Boston. Boston was supposed to be an example,

for others to follow. That is what Segal said at the end of the

night.

Cong. Conyers had a hearing in Detroit in 2002, that I attended and

testified at. The only teacher. And, the last one to speak. It was

in the residential context and Melinda Ballard, was a pivotal

figure. Her case was landmark, and noteworthy.

People were not thinking of mold in the schools context, only the

residential with the insurance industry in controversy at the time.

When Cong. Conyers heard that I was from his late colleague's

(Moakley) district, he was very interested, because there was

a " connect. "

The EPA was invited and did not come. It was June 3, 2002. One June

4, they (EPA) came out with new Schools guidelines for exposure and

cleanup. No one ever came in my class with a space suit (as I call

them) to clean up the aspergillus and other mold.

There have been hearings in Boston on Air Quality since then. Those

that I could not attend, I sent testimony which was read into the

record. At the State House at the state level, the same. Up through

and including 2007. I serve on the Boston Urban Asthma Coalition and

other groups specific to Air Quality. Much happened in 2004, but

much has happened since. On a quiet level, with little or no

notoriety, essentially " under the radar. "

At this point, that this issue is " out of the closet " some people are

more reasonable and less frightened, because industry has reacted, to

a certain degree, by producing paperless sheetrock for example,

and " moisture " is regarded as something to be controlled.

As for the rest, this forum not the place for other discussion.

The media has focused some much needed attention (through efforts you

and others have made)in the WSJ, and other print and other media.

I feel that, like one of my former principals used to say, " We can

disagree, without being disagreeable. " That is intelligent and

forward moving discourse.

Sharon, I wish you very good luck. There are many battles in this

war. Melinda Ballard fought the insurance industry. You have taken

on one that is tough, as well.

This war is waged in single battles. If we become divided, we are

all easily defeated.

Ginny

> >

> > Hey Ginny,

> >

> > You must have missed the meeting in December of 2004, where

> Mulvey

> > spoke. Dr. Sommer and Josh came in for it. KC was there.

> > Segal, and many others...about 100 people. Dr.

> Johanning came in and

> > gave the following speech about the deceit of ACOEM and others.

> Maura

> > Hennigan was the driving force for this meeting.

> >

> >

> > Dr.Johanning' Dr.Johanning'<WBR

> >

> > I feel I am qualified to speak on this subject because I am an

> > occupational physician and I have worked in research and have

> > worked several government agencies such as EPA, CDC, & HUD. I

> > have been involved with this issue for the past 15 years in NYC.

> > We have had several symposiums and have brought scientists

> > together 5 times who will be more than willing to collaborate

> > our findings. Which have already been published.

> >

> > I know the Washington office of the Budget Management did a

> > study of the structure and situations of schools and concluded

> > that a third of the schools have serious Indoor Air Quality

> > problems and that many of these are related to water intrusion.

> > The press picked up on this issue many years ago, much more

> > than the medical community I'm sad to say, and probably got

> > the word out.

> >

> > I have seen over the last couple of years organized effects

> > by the insurance industry and their advocates to defuse the

> > issue and recently a report and some papers have come out on

> > this issue saying we don't see a connection. I am a member of

> > the American College of Occupational & Environmental Medicine.

> > They state they have a so-called paper that concludes that we

> > don't think the evidence that connects mold in particular, mold

> > to adverse health effects. If you go and look how this paper was

> > generated you will realize, and I have legal documents to prove

> > this, that this wasn't an objective, free discussion within our

> > membership. But rather a paper that was pushed in such a secret

> > manner, was pushed through the committee in order to use that as

> > a statement against doctors who think that there is a problem.

> >

> > Following this came the IOM paper and let me mention a couple of

> > names here and documents that have come over the last couple of

> > years, that makes it very difficult for doctors out there who

> > don't know much about the issue to really educate themselves and

> > if they are going to the internet or pick up a medical journal

> > they would come up with papers which essentially conclude, we

> > don't see a connection between the problems of mold exposure and

> > indoor health quality problems and adverse effects.

> >

> > There are other papers out there and we should mention this and

> > probably it's a little more removed from this. But Harriett

Burge

> > who was the group Harvard School of Public Health put together a

> > group, to my knowledge, for the IOM two (2) years ago. She is the

> > same person who in 2002 also attended a meeting organized by

> > Dr.Ron Gots, Globaltox in Washington which basically had all the

> > leading defense experts there saying, we don't think there is a

> > problem with mold. She also went to the press and media in the

> > years 2002-2003 stating we don't think there is a problem. She

> > chaired this committee, she called many of the member on the

> > committee. Interesting enough the conclusion now of the report

> > that came out recently that supported basically the CDC and many

> > other people saying, we don't think there is a connection

between

> > toxic mold and many of the claims that people are doing.

> >

> > I think this process very undemocratic, secretive and that

> > there was not enough public input and opportunity for doctors

> > who are more involved with the research and care of patients to

> > address these issues. I think we need to restudy this and to

> > reconvene a group. I am a member of the MPha and feel they can do

> > an objective look at this.

> >

> > There were only two physicians on this committee. Two physicians

> > who had not really worked in this field. So a lot of the people

who

> > were members of the committee, and they are very qualified and

> > good minded people, but if you look at their publication record

> > and if you look at some of their opinions that they had before

they

> > went into the committee, you can already see that the conclusion

> > that came out of it was not really based on what I would think

is

> > science and knowledge that is published in the papers. Several

> > members of the IOM committee had written their opinion and it was

> > sent to " higher-ups " to change, were not allowed to comment on

the

> > changes.

> >

> > But its a good start I think, but the conclusions are not based

on

> > the facts, I would say. I think we have enough knowledge out

there

> > and that's what the committee, the IOM committee chopped off

their

> > report.

> >

> > Knowing is not enough, we must apply.

> > Living is not enough, we must do.

> >

> > Dr. Eckhart Johanning

> >

> > Here is a link that writes of this one:

> >

>

__http://www.upi.http://www.upihttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.upihttp:

/_

>

(http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health

)

> _risks_h

> > igh_costs/3288/

> >

>

(_http://www.upi.http://www.upihttp://wwhttp://www.http://www.upihttp:

/_

>

(http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Business/2004/12/30/mold_spawning_health

)

> _risks_high__risks_high_risks

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon -

Several weeks back, I posted an article about how the U.S. govt

was " weaponising " mycotoxins BEFORE we entered WWII - if they were

doing this in the 1940's then, surely someone KNEW it could kill

people. You can probably find the post.

I am surprised that there was little or no comment on it. If

they " weaponise " it - it does harm people.

Ginny

It is consistent with the Geneva Convention of 1924. I am a great

believer in the axiom, that " the truth will set you free. "

>

> Dear All,

>

> As many of you know, I am in litigation with the authors of the

ACOEM Mold

> Statement, who are also the authors of the US Chamber Mold

Statement.

> Basically, both of these papers say YOU can't be sick from mold.

>

> You all are going to love this one. With all the families who

have lost

> everything because of

> misinformation over the mold issue, Dr. Kelman, a co-author of the

two

> papers is now claiming that my words of “altered his under oath

statements†have

> caused him emotional distress.

>

> They are discussing the case on the adversarial chatboard of

ToxLaw, the

> Black Mold Board. One of the naysayers is asking " what people who

have lost

> everything? "

>

> Will someone from this board do me a favor and go on to the Toxic

Tort Black

> Mold to let them know this is not a game???? People's lives are

being

> destroyed.

>

> _http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?

encquery=2d17b9970d7bf18de9521bee9e990499

> & invocationType=keyword_rollover & ie=UTF-8_

> (http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?

encquery=2d17b9970d7bf18de9521bee9e990499 & invocationType=keyword_rollo

ver & ie

> =UTF-8)

>

> Thanks,

> Sharon K

>

>

>

> **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel

Guides.

> (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?

ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ginny,

Not feeling divided and hope you are not either. Just not understanding

your point of reference for saying that ACOEM was never on the table in a

Boston

City Council meeting, when Johanning specifically addressed this aspect in a

speech before them. I still am not certain I am following your point on

this. Are you saying there are other aspects to this issue that they have

addressed?

I whole heartedly agree with you that Boston City Council has been a beacon

for moving the entire issue of IAQ problems forward. They, you and others in

Mass. are to be commended for this.

In a message dated 4/11/2008 5:49:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

ginloi@... writes:

This war is waged in single battles. If we become divided, we are

all easily defeated.

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money &

Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I don't know how you did that, but that is a great way to link to ToxLaw.

Good choice to illustrate what goes on there. It is utterly amazing to me

that those who DO know how sick some are from mold could still choose to be so

cruel. I am not certain what " BB " does for a living, but feel pretty certain

it is tied to the defense side of mold litigation.

Sharon K

In a message dated 4/11/2008 5:49:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

barb1283@... writes:

I have trouble with those long links also. Just don't have the knack

but here is one of the posts and the links to the other posts are below

it:

_http://tinyurl.http://tin_ (http://tinyurl.com/5p4dwh)

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money &

Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

[Guest guest]

As I postedon the board...he GOT CAUGHT and now he's STRESSED over it....

[Guest guest]

I have trouble with those long links also. Just don't have the knack

but here is one of the posts and the links to the other posts are below

it:

http://tinyurl.com/5p4dwh

>

> Can someone please turn this into a tiny URL so I can

> get there to comment?

>

[Guest guest]

Don't you think he means legal trouble of major kind if he was under

oath? Look what they made out of Pres Clinton saying he did not have

have sex, depending on what you define sex, while under oath. He was

impeached for that. Of course they are all crazy bunch of loons for

that.

>

>

> Angel,

>

> I don't really know what he is thinking with this. But it seems

very odd to

> me. The ONLY words that are part of this lawsuit are " altered his

under

> oath statements " . That's it.

[Guest guest]

Yes, you were and it was not ON the agenda, but PART of some testimony.

>

> ACOEM was not on the table in front of the Boston City Council. The

Melina

> Bill was. I was there

>

>

> **************

> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on

> AOL Money & amp; Finance.

> (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sharon,

Tiny URL is a service that turns long URL's into short ones. It's easy

and free. You either cut and paste long URL into their window, or even

easier, create a button on your toolbar using directions that they

provide on the left side there. My web browser doesn't allow me to add

the button, so I followed their directions to add it to my

Favorites/Links. That way, if you are on a web page you want to share

with other people, you just click on the button on your toolbar, or

click on the Link in your toolbar and that eliminates the need to cut

and paste URL into TinyURL box.

www.tinyURL.com

>>

> Barb,

> > I don't know how you did that

[Guest guest]

I meant to write " ..or click on the Link in your Favorites " , and

mistyped link also:

http://tinyurl.com/

>

> or click on the Link in your toolbar and that eliminates the need to

cut and paste URL into TinyURL box.

>