Re: Re: Intro and remediation question, response to Jeff May

May 1, 2008

Chrissy,

Can you point me to remediation methods approved by OSHA?

I'm not aware of any. Are your methods approved by OSHA?

BTW, your recounting of the hotel (one of many, actually) where

bleach and other even more powerful chemicals failed is

important to understand. If the moistue isn't stopped the mold

(and bacterial) growth will continue. Just like health effects for

many of us will continue despite the use of CSM or other

treatments if we stay exposed to the mold growth.

Which points to the difference between what you and Jeff are

saying. Jeff isn't saying to use bleach instead of drying. He was

simply talking about whether or not bleach acted as you stated.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> In response to Jeff May's comments We are not chemists we investigate through

the internet and our Bio-tech. A Hotel in Florida used bleach to attempt to

remediate their mold only to have it come back. They were victims of hurricane

Charley and Wilma and had to remove their drywall in 80 rooms. They replaced the

drywall without drying the wall framing completely and the mold came back in

just days. There was no mold on the floors, furniture, bedding etc... There is a

picture posted on www.moldremedy.biz of one of those rooms that shows that

bleach Is Not effective for mold remediation and not an approved method by OSHA.

Every one has different views on this subject. We do not use CHEMICALS or

anything else that can be harmful to us. Read the Material Safety Data Sheets of

any products and see for yourselves. Its bad enough we get sick from molds, let

alone adding harmful chemicals and cleaners that can make us even sicker. We

just try to pass on information as we find it.

>

> From: May [mailto: jeff@...]To:

@...: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:03:39 -0400Subject:

[] Re: Intro and remediation question

>

> Chrissy,There are many incorrect statements in this post and as a chemist, I

would like to respond.Hyphae do not grow into drywall gypsum, only into the

paper, which contains about 1% starch, a far more readily digested nutrient than

the cellulose in paper. Hyphae grow where there are nutrients, and there are

none in the gypsum. Molds are microfungi and therefore only grow on the surfaces

of materials, unlike macrofungi that decay wood and send hyphae through the wood

structure.There is nothing about the ion structure (hypochlorite) that prevents

bleach from soaking into gypsum, wood, or paper. Bleach penetrates porous

materials as readily as does water.There is no such thing as a " protected enzyme

root. " Hyphae are killed by bleach.Under typical conditions of spraying, it is

impossible for the water part of the solution to separate from the bleach part

(except by evaporation).Bleach is very effective at killing microbes, but given

their vast numbers, a few microbes will

> survive, thus leading to the misconception that bleach is not effective.Fungi

do not develop a resistance to bleach.The only partially correct statement in

the post is that bleach (because it is alkaline) can weaken the stucture of

wood. But since most spraying only affects a superficial amount of wood, any

weakening is irrelevant.Bleach may not be " green, " but as long as the smell

isn't a problem for you, and you take proper precautions during use, diluted it

works great on solid (non-porous) surfaces. C. MayAuthor, " The Mold

Survival Guide " May Indoor Air Investigations

LLCwww.mayindoorair.com_________________________________________________________\

_ & gt; 11a. Re: Intro and remediation question & gt; Posted by: " chrissy "

microbes4u@... moldremedy & gt; Date: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:56 pm

((PDT)) & gt; & gt; Hi Judith, As mold remediators, we have discovered that one of

the & gt; worst things people can do with treating a mold problem, is to use & gt;

bleach, chlorox, etc...

> This article is posted on our website. & gt; BLEACH MYTH EXPOSED! WHY IT

DOESN'T WORK!Mold's hyphae (root & gt; structures) actually grow into wood and

drywall like roots. The & gt; hyphae are not killed by bleach because bleach's

ion structure & gt; prevents chlorine from penetrating into porous materials such

as dry & gt; wall and wood. It stays on the outside surface, whereas mold has

& gt; protected enzyme roots growing inside the porous construction & gt;

materials. When you spray porous surface molds with bleach, the & gt; water part

of the solution soaks into the wood while the bleach & gt; chemical sits atop the

surface, gasses off, and thus only partially & gt; kills the surface layer of

mold while the water penetration of the & gt; building materials fosters further

mold growth. Chlorine bleach & gt; (sodium hypochlorite) causes long term

breakdown of wood products & gt; like & gt; studs, sheathing plywood, OSB, and

other building materials over & gt; time. Fungus and mold through

> time developes a resistance to & gt; chlorine bleach. Sincerely,Chrissy Mann---

On Wed 04/30, llaci2003 & gt; & amp;lt; jjaksic@... & amp;gt; wrote:From:

llaci2003 [mailto: & gt; jjaksic@...]To:

@...: Wed, 30 & gt; Apr 2008 18:13:00 -0000Subject:

[] Re: Intro and & gt; remediation question & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;

Judith,Firstly can you get someone else to get into the fan and wipe & gt; off

theblades/motor? A few times I had found that mold spores stuck & gt; to

theblades which caused my breathing problem. Have them use a & gt; washclothwith

sprayed on clorox and rinse; repeat. Also, sometimes & gt; mold spores will get

in the corners of cabinets or getonto pipes & gt; which will cause decay. Maybe

you can get someoneelse to wipe out & gt; every nook and cranny of that kitchen

cabinet with amild clorox & gt; spray. If there is mold, you're likely to see

some blackstuff on the & gt; washcloth or even spores.HI will cover it IF you can

> prove it was & gt; caused by a leak in the house.llaci & amp;gt; & gt;

>

> _______________________________________________

> No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.

> Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com

>

May 1, 2008

Chrissy,

As a follow-up to my previous post about bleach, I went to your

web site. I have some questions and several concerns about the

following text on your home page:

Our 18 families of over 125 species of good bacteria

consume and utilize for food bad bacteria such as mold

and mold spores. We apply our formula through a cold

fogger and they follow their food source which may be

behind walls, wallcovering/wallpaper, crown and floor

molding, and wherever toxic bacteria is breeding. Our

beneficial microbes will continue reproducing as they eat

all existing pathogens in the contaminated environment

until the food source is consumed. ... The emphasis of

our site is to further educate our perspective (sic)

customers on safe, chemical free solutions for a variety of

environmental challenges.

1. " bad bacteria such as mold and mold spores. " Mold and mold

spores are not bacteria, good, bad or indifferent. Mold (fungi) is a

different Kingdom from the Kingdom of bacteria, which is as

different as the Kingdom of animals or the Kingdom of plants. To

confuse or otherwise mix the two Kingdoms does not instill

confidence in the rest of your position or claims. But let's continue

in case I'm wrong.

Before I do, however, your " 125 species of good (sic)

bacteria " would properly be in 18 genera, not families.

Taxonimic classification is more precise than that.

2. " safe, chemical free solutions " is a direct contradiction to

" We apply our formula through a cold fogger. "

The only substance that can be applied by any kind of

" fogger " is by definition a chemical. Bacteria in solution is

a chemical. BTW, what is the bacteria suspended in?

Water or alcohol or a solvent? If water, then you are

adding water to water damage. If alcohol or a solvent then

you are increasing the chemical exposure. I would guess

that your application device is more likely an atomizer

than a fogger. Check the definitions and compare them to

the specifications of your equipment.

3. How does your non-chemical chemical get inside walls where

the hidden mold is? I would guess from your statement " they

follow their food source " that the bacteria themselves don't get

fogged behind walls, but the bacteria will deposit on surfaces and

begin eating the mold on the surface (like in your photo), and

then continue along the path of mold growth.

This would work extremely well... as long as the " line " of

food is continuous with no breaks. Yet your photo clearly

shows the mold is not uniformly deposited on the wall

surface. Once your voracious bacteria reach a boundary

they can't go any further. Stopped dead (starved) in their

tracks, so to speak. It might be more effective to brush or

spray your product directly onto the surfaces. Why

unnecessarily fill the air with it?

4. " and wherever toxic bacteria is breeding. " Again, you are

confusing bacteria and mold.

You are also assign attributes such as " good " and " bad "

to bacteria. Please tell me how your bacteria knows the

difference between good and bad bacteria? For that

matter, how do they know the difference between

themselves and the bacteria that is already there? It

seems more likely that the bacteria you fog have too

small a brain and will end up spending more time eating

themselves than following a " trail of bread crumbs " to get

behind walls, moulding and wallpaper.

5. But even more troubling is what you say in your e-mail:

a. " We are not chemists... "

What is your training? Do you have any professional

training by any credible professional organizations that

don't sell products? Who are your mentors? Do you have

any certifications from organizations independent from

membership or sales? If certified, are the procedures

accredited by an independent organization such as CESB

or ANSI?

b. " we investigate through the internet and our Bio-tech. " and " We

just try to pass on information as we find it. "

How do you discern the accurate, authoritative

information you find on the internet from the inaccurate,

self-biased and conflict of interest information we all find

on the Internet? If you actually reported it all then you

would present all viewpoints without judgment including

Jeff May's position on bleach, the evidence against using

bacteria (or enzymes) to eat mold and the myriad of sites

selling chemicals that kill mold but do not have EPA

registration. And, what is " our Bio-tech " ?

c. " Every one has different views on this subject. "

Here is where I have some level of agreement with you. I

often describe the situation as 5000 consultants with

7000 opinions. Yes, there are no consensus standards or

laws so everyone feels free to create whatever they can

best sell. And it is a serious problem.

However, there are groups of opinions that are consistent

within themselves. And the only ones I know of that

promote chemicals (including cannibalistic bacteria or

voracious enzymes) are those who manufacture and sell

them. Much like the ozone believers: I sell it, therefore it

is the best.

Your original business of " We also provide services in lake, pond,

and lagoon cleanup that is also non-toxic and rids your area of

water from fungus and algae. " is exactly where your process

could

be very effective and where you Web site information is most

accurate.

But applications in water and in buildings are two entirely different

situations requiring very different approaches.

Chrissy, I'm sorry, but in my opinion your well intended beliefs are

misapplied and seem more consistent with selling your products

than in analyzing problems moisture problems in buildings and

finding effective solutions for people in need. And it is confusing

to new people who are just learning and asking for help.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

In response to Jeff May's comments We are not chemists we

investigate through the internet and our Bio-tech. A Hotel in

Florida used bleach to attempt to remediate their mold only to

have it come back. They were victims of hurricane Charley and

Wilma and had to remove their drywall in 80 rooms. They

replaced the drywall without drying the wall framing completely

and the mold came back in just days. There was no mold on the

floors, furniture, bedding etc... There is a picture posted on

www.moldremedy.biz of one of those rooms that shows that

bleach Is Not effective for mold remediation and not an approved

method by OSHA. Every one has different views on this subject.

We do not use CHEMICALS or anything else that can be harmful

to us. Read the Material Safety Data Sheets of any products and

see for yourselves. Its bad enough we get sick from molds, let

alone adding harmful chemicals and cleaners that can make us

even sicker. We just try to pass on information as we find it.

From: May [mailto: jeff@...]To:

@...: Thu, 01 May 2008

09:03:39 -0400Subject: [] Re: Intro and remediation

question

Chrissy,There are many incorrect statements in this post and as

a chemist, I would like to respond.Hyphae do not grow into

drywall gypsum, only into the paper, which contains about 1%

starch, a far more readily digested nutrient than the cellulose in

paper. Hyphae grow where there are nutrients, and there are

none in the gypsum. Molds are microfungi and therefore only

grow on the surfaces of materials, unlike macrofungi that decay

wood and send hyphae through the wood structure.There is

nothing about the ion structure (hypochlorite) that prevents

bleach from soaking into gypsum, wood, or paper. Bleach

penetrates porous materials as readily as does water.There is no

such thing as a " protected enzyme root. " Hyphae are killed by

bleach.Under typical conditions of spraying, it is impossible for

the water part of the solution to separate from the bleach part

(except by evaporation).Bleach is very effective at killing

microbes, but given their vast numbers, a few microbes will

survive, thus leading to the misconception that bleach is not

effective.Fungi do not develop a resistance to bleach.The only

partially correct statement in the post is that bleach (because it is

alkaline) can weaken the stucture of wood. But since most

spraying only affects a superficial amount of wood, any

weakening is irrelevant.Bleach may not be " green, " but as long as

the smell isn't a problem for you, and you take proper precautions

during use, diluted it works great on solid (non-porous)

surfaces. C. MayAuthor, " The Mold Survival Guide " May

Indoor Air Investigations LLCwww.mayindoorair.com

May 2, 2008

Carl,

Thanks for posting this reply and for discussing it in such a specific and

objective manner. It is difficult as a layperson to discern what the most

effective protocols might be to remediate a home. I'm learning from people on

the list every day.

In your opinion what would be the protocols for remediation that have the most

concensus among professionals that you respect? I don't want to waste any of

your valuable time, if I've missed some files in the group data base or this has

been posted before. Could you or others on the list direct me to that

information, please? Many thanks, Sam

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

However, there are groups of opinions that are consistent

within themselves.

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

May 2, 2008

Sam,

There have been bits and pieces over time which collectively are

valuable. Although mold remediation is very simple in principle

(remove, don't cross-contaminate, stop the moisture) this misses

a critical first step. So, I'd like to first re-frame the issue. There is

more to mold remediation than just " remediation. "

There should first be answers to questions such as:

* Should you remediate?

* If so, is it mold and/or something else? What areas need to

be remediated?

* How are the individual needs of the occupant to be met?

* What is the scope of work in the building (how much and

where) using which procedures?

* Who, if anyone, will oversee the work of the remediator?

* How will completion of the work be determined and verified?

By the contractor himself, by the original consultant or by

another independent party? What if they say it's done but you

are still reacting? What is the next step?

These are some of the questions that should be in a mold

" assessment " prior to any mold remediation. Without that, we

place ourselves at the mercy of contractors who know how to

" sell " whatever they have. For example, get 3 or more competive

bids for remediation. I promise you, they will all be significantly

different, so much so it will be very difficult to compare them in

any useful way.

All this should be agreed upon before any remediation is started.

There are currently no " assessment " standards for mold. NYC

Guidelines have rough rules of thumb based on square footage.

EPA has excellent, but general, recommendations in their Mold

Remediation for Schools and Commericial Buildings, free at

www.epa.gov/molds But both pretty much assume a decision has

been made to remediate.

But once the decision is made to remediate (however that is

decided) there are guidlelines and standards for how to

remediate. IICRC S520 Standard and Reference Guide for

Professional Mold Remediation is the best, in my opinion, but is

over 300 pages, costs $130 and is written for professionals with

extensive experience and education.

However, all actions for remediation can be summarized in basic

principles:

* Mold only grows where their is moisture. So compliance with

ANSI-IICRC S500 Standard and Reference Guide for

Professional Water Damage Restoration is important. If this

is followed there won't be mold to be removed.

* Remove the mold without spreading it around. Killing does

little and most likely spreads it around. Containment and

airflow control are essential to this.

* Stop the moisture source. If it isn't, mold will continue to grow.

Even if all the mold in the area is killed, if moisture continues

the always present mold in the air will eventualy settle on the

same location and begin growing. Another reason why killing

only doesn't work. More moisture also voids all warranties

despite their claim of 3 to 5 to 20 years or more.

* S520 has extensive citations from Bioaerosols: Assessment

and Control against reliance on biocides, bleach, anti-

microbials and other chemical means. While use is

sometimes appropriate it is always a part of removal. Never

instead of removal.

Finally, citing the ACGIH Bioaerosols, sections 15.5 and 8.6.3

specifically state that the ultimate criteria for a successful

remediation is the return of the occupants without complaint.

Even EPA in page 26 item 5 says, " People should be able to

occupy or re-occupy the space without health complaints or

physical symptoms. "

So, the answer to your question is to:

* First determine the need for remediation by objective means,

not just sales pitches. (About 1/3 of mold claims are not mold

but something else. About 1/2 of the mold situations involve

exposures in addition to the mold. Removing just mold won't

work).

* Determine the area(s) that need remediated and document

the conditions justifying it. (BTW, mold sampling alone is not

documentation of need, location or extent. But that is another

discussion with much in the archives of this group).

* Remove the mold without cross-contaminating the rest of the

building. (different techniques for porous, non-porous and

semi-porous surfaces). Some small areas need no

containment or airflow control. For others it is absolutely

necessary.

* Identify and stop the moisture that caused the mold growth.

(pipe leaks, sewage blackflows - more serious than any mold

- intrusion from outside, condensation. Also, moisture must

be considered as a vapor (humidity) in addition to being a

liquid).

* Verify that the agreed upon scope of work and procedures

was followed. (Don't always rely on the contractor's word for

it. Of course he'll say he didn't miss anything).

* Independantly verify that the job is completed to your

satisfaction in accordance with the Bioaerosols and EPA

citations above. Mold sampling may or may not be useful, but

never absolutely by itself.

All that said, it is sometimes as easy as what Jeff said today.

Simply remove a small area of mold from a surface by wiping

with dampness and a little detergent. Even if dead it still must be

removed, so why kill it first? Extra effort and extra cost. But if the

source of moisture was from the other side of the suface, you

have a bigger problem.

While mold remediation is very simple (remove, don't cross-

contaminate, stop the moisture) the subtleties and other factors

can make it difficult to accomplish.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> Thanks for posting this reply and for discussing it in such a specific and

objective manner. It is difficult as a layperson to discern what the most

effective protocols might be to remediate a home. I'm learning from people on

the list every day.

>

> In your opinion what would be the protocols for remediation that have the

most concensus among professionals that you respect? I don't want to waste any

of your valuable time, if I've missed some files in the group data base or this

has been posted before. Could you or others on the list direct me to that

information, please? Many thanks, Sam

>

> " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

> However, there are groups of opinions that are consistent

> within themselves.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it

now.

>

May 2, 2008

Mr. Grimes;I too have gone to your website, I was just wondering where you

gained all of your knowledge. It looks like your techniques and knowledge may

have taken some time to develop or were you born with this uncanny ability,

knowledge,and expertise. Did you possibly learn through time or spend years in a

University? Were you attacked for your views and research? In response to your

comments to us.Point 1: You are absolutely correct and this has been corrected

on the site, we thank you. We meant to state that microbes eat molds and

overtake non-beneficial (BAD) bacteria germs/viruses etc...

Point 2: We have used Ultra-Low Volume foggers for 3 years and are very aware of

what we are using, maybe you should check product definitions before you tell us

what you think we use. It is not an atomizer as you incorrectly guessed. The

microbes are diluted in water not in solvents or alcohol as you again guessed.

We go in before any corrective construction is done and treat all surfaces. A

minimal amount of water is used (1qt per 1000 sq ft of living space)

Point 3 We explained how microbes travel by following a food source or in

moisture. In most homes most floors are not sealed or drywalled and can travel

through that route, besides that I guess you should ask the microbes. All we

know is we have proof through our customers testimonials that mold is no longer

present behind these walls. As far as fogging versus spraying or brushing on

microbes. We prefer to fog because we can obtain a more uniform application on

surfaces and with the microbes floating in the air they can help knock down mold

spores in the air.

Point 4: Explained this in point 1. When saying bad bacteria we mean the 5% of

harmful bacteria and in saying good bacteria meaning the other 95% of beneficial

bacteria. You were very nice to point out you hardly thought microbes had a big

enough brain to distinguish between good and bad bacteria. Microbes being a

single cell microorganism and not having a brain I found your comment slightly

humorous. (I can be just as sarcastic as you) They are in this world to eat,

breed and die thats all. Our formulators grow specific microbes that have their

own function.

Point 5: What is our training? This is not rocket science. We found this

microbial product that is effective in eating molds and through different

application techniques found the most effective way to apply it. We started

searching for natural solutions for our personal use at home 5 years ago. When

we discovered the bathroom in our church infested with black mold we started

searching for solutions on the internet. Our pastor attempted to clean it with

bleach and detergents only to find the problem getting worse. We finally had to

vacate our church and tear it down and we continued to search for solutions. We

had heard of using microbes and dug deeper until we found a group of people a

doctor/formulator specializing in microbiology and her father in law also a

formulator with the USDA specializing in microbiology (retired after 30 years),

a Veterinarian, and a couple of wheat farmers looking for different microbial

solutions. We do not join all these organizations out there

for several reasons. Most of these organizations charge you 100's of dollars to

join them only to get together for dinner and drinks once a month. The food

usually sucks and you have to sit and listen to some self serving expert in this

or that inflate his or her own ego. Oh yes you also get to put their logo on

your website to promote them further. We are however registered with the BBB,

CCR, D & amp;B and we TCB!

You also insinuated we are here to solicit business or peddle our products.

ly we don't find it profitable to treat a home or a room or someones

kitchen cabinet in Michigan or wherever when we live in southern Florida. From

time to time we step out of the box and mix a job with a vacation to someplace

we would like to see or visit just to escape the summer heat of Florida. EXCUSE

US! We do market other microbial products for algae in lakes & amp; ponds, waste

& amp; odor control (Used at Texas A & amp;M for one), animal & amp; livestock

health, soil, tree, shrub and flower enhancers. NOT ONCE have we ever offered to

sell any of our products or even list our other website or these products that

are on it. Among our customers are some of the largest Hotel & amp; Hospitality

Corporations in the USA, large livestock & amp; poultry operations, several

theatres & amp; lodging places in Branson, MO, Amusement Parks (think of a

country star), we ship these microbes in over thirty states

and our products are also used in India, Vietnam, and China. So I doubt very

much that we are participating in this group to sell a quart or gallon of our

microbes to them. A big part of what we do involves our passion that my wife and

I have for our planet and those in it. We see what has happened to this planet

over the past 30-40 years and in our way we are trying to help restore just a

little bit of what man has destroyed. Mr Grimes we are not perfect and don't

claim to be, that doesn't mean you are either and you had your beginnings as

well. I know of only one perfect man!

We know one thing; our product and process works! We have testimonials from

people with 800sq ft cabins to 350,000sq ft theatres to back us up. And frankly

we don't have the time to respond to every skeptic out there that wants to

attack us. I didn't think posting an article from another website would prompt

such contempt. In the future I will not attempt to offer any further suggestions

or information to this group but rather sit and scheme on a plan to sell each

and every member of this group a quart of microbes. I leave you with this:

DO YOU REMEMBER ANY THING ABOUT TOXIC MOLD, FIBROMYALGIA, LUPUS, or CHRONES

DISEASE 20 YEARS AGO? ASK THE CHEMICAL & amp; PHAMACEUTICAL COMPANIES WHY THEIR

CHEMISTS AND SCIENTISTS HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT A WAY TO HELP US RECOVER FROM WHAT

THEY CREATED IN THEIR LABORATORIES.

DONT HATE, HELP

Shane Mann

From: Carl E. Grimes [mailto: grimes@...]To:

@...: Thu, 01 May 2008 22:37:23 -0600Subject: Re:

[] Re: Intro and remediation question, response to Jeff May

Chrissy,As a follow-up to my previous post about bleach, I went to your web

site. I have some questions and several concerns about the following text on

your home page:Our 18 families of over 125 species of good bacteria consume and

utilize for food bad bacteria such as mold and mold spores. We apply our formula

through a cold fogger and they follow their food source which may be behind

walls, wallcovering/wallpaper, crown and floor molding, and wherever toxic

bacteria is breeding. Our beneficial microbes will continue reproducing as they

eat all existing pathogens in the contaminated environment until the food source

is consumed. ... The emphasis of our site is to further educate our perspective

(sic) customers on safe, chemical free solutions for a variety of environmental

challenges.1. " bad bacteria such as mold and mold spores. " Mold and mold spores

are not bacteria, good, bad or indifferent. Mold (fungi) is a different Kingdom

from the Kingdom of bacteria, which is as

different as the Kingdom of animals or the Kingdom of plants. To confuse or

otherwise mix the two Kingdoms does not instill confidence in the rest of your

position or claims. But let's continue in case I'm wrong.Before I do, however,

your " 125 species of good (sic) bacteria " would properly be in 18 genera, not

families. Taxonimic classification is more precise than that.2. " safe, chemical

free solutions " is a direct contradiction to " We apply our formula through a

cold fogger. " The only substance that can be applied by any kind of " fogger " is

by definition a chemical. Bacteria in solution is a chemical. BTW, what is the

bacteria suspended in? Water or alcohol or a solvent? If water, then you are

adding water to water damage. If alcohol or a solvent then you are increasing

the chemical exposure. I would guess that your application device is more likely

an atomizer than a fogger. Check the definitions and compare them to the

specifications of your equipment.3. How does your

non-chemical chemical get inside walls where the hidden mold is? I would guess

from your statement " they follow their food source " that the bacteria themselves

don't get fogged behind walls, but the bacteria will deposit on surfaces and

begin eating the mold on the surface (like in your photo), and then continue

along the path of mold growth.This would work extremely well... as long as the

" line " of food is continuous with no breaks. Yet your photo clearly shows the

mold is not uniformly deposited on the wall surface. Once your voracious

bacteria reach a boundary they can't go any further. Stopped dead (starved) in

their tracks, so to speak. It might be more effective to brush or spray your

product directly onto the surfaces. Why unnecessarily fill the air with it?4.

" and wherever toxic bacteria is breeding. " Again, you are confusing bacteria and

mold. You are also assign attributes such as " good " and " bad " to bacteria.

Please tell me how your bacteria knows the difference

between good and bad bacteria? For that matter, how do they know the difference

between themselves and the bacteria that is already there? It seems more likely

that the bacteria you fog have too small a brain and will end up spending more

time eating themselves than following a " trail of bread crumbs " to get behind

walls, moulding and wallpaper.5. But even more troubling is what you say in your

e-mail: a. " We are not chemists... " What is your training? Do you have any

professional training by any credible professional organizations that don't sell

products? Who are your mentors? Do you have any certifications from

organizations independent from membership or sales? If certified, are the

procedures accredited by an independent organization such as CESB or ANSI?b. " we

investigate through the internet and our Bio-tech. " and " We just try to pass on

information as we find it. " How do you discern the accurate, authoritative

information you find on the internet from the inaccurate,

self-biased and conflict of interest information we all find on the Internet? If

you actually reported it all then you would present all viewpoints without

judgment including Jeff May's position on bleach, the evidence against using

bacteria (or enzymes) to eat mold and the myriad of sites selling chemicals that

kill mold but do not have EPA registration. And, what is " our Bio-tech " ?c.

" Every one has different views on this subject. " Here is where I have some level

of agreement with you. I often describe the situation as 5000 consultants with

7000 opinions. Yes, there are no consensus standards or laws so everyone feels

free to create whatever they can best sell. And it is a serious problem.However,

there are groups of opinions that are consistent within themselves. And the only

ones I know of that promote chemicals (including cannibalistic bacteria or

voracious enzymes) are those who manufacture and sell them. Much like the ozone

believers: I sell it, therefore it is the

best. Your original business of " We also provide services in lake, pond, and

lagoon cleanup that is also non-toxic and rids your area of water from fungus

and algae. " is exactly where your process couldbe very effective and where you

Web site information is most accurate. But applications in water and in

buildings are two entirely different situations requiring very different

approaches.Chrissy, I'm sorry, but in my opinion your well intended beliefs are

misapplied and seem more consistent with selling your products than in analyzing

problems moisture problems in buildings and finding effective solutions for

people in need. And it is confusing to new people who are just learning and

asking for help.Carl GrimesHealthy Habitats LLC-----In response to Jeff May's

comments We are not chemists we investigate through the internet and our

Bio-tech. A Hotel in Florida used bleach to attempt to remediate their mold only

to have it come back. They were victims of hurricane Charley and

Wilma and had to remove their drywall in 80 rooms. They replaced the drywall

without drying the wall framing completely and the mold came back in just days.

There was no mold on the floors, furniture, bedding etc... There is a picture

posted on www.moldremedy.biz of one of those rooms that shows that bleach Is Not

effective for mold remediation and not an approved method by OSHA. Every one has

different views on this subject. We do not use CHEMICALS or anything else that

can be harmful to us. Read the Material Safety Data Sheets of any products and

see for yourselves. Its bad enough we get sick from molds, let alone adding

harmful chemicals and cleaners that can make us even sicker. We just try to pass

on information as we find it. From: May [mailto:

jeff@...]@...: Thu, 01 May 2008

09:03:39 -0400Subject: [] Re: Intro and remediation

questionChrissy,There are many incorrect statements in this post and as a

chemist, I would like to respond.Hyphae do not grow into drywall gypsum, only

into the paper, which contains about 1% starch, a far more readily digested

nutrient than the cellulose in paper. Hyphae grow where there are nutrients, and

there are none in the gypsum. Molds are microfungi and therefore only grow on

the surfaces of materials, unlike macrofungi that decay wood and send hyphae

through the wood structure.There is nothing about the ion structure

(hypochlorite) that prevents bleach from soaking into gypsum, wood, or paper.

Bleach penetrates porous materials as readily as does water.There is no such

thing as a " protected enzyme root. " Hyphae are killed by bleach.Under typical

conditions of spraying, it is impossible for the water part of the solution to

separate from the bleach part (except by evaporation).Bleach is very effective

at killing microbes, but given their vast numbers, a few microbes will survive,

thus leading to the misconception that bleach is not

effective.Fungi do not develop a resistance to bleach.The only partially correct

statement in the post is that bleach (because it is alkaline) can weaken the

stucture of wood. But since most spraying only affects a superficial amount of

wood, any weakening is irrelevant.Bleach may not be " green, " but as long as the

smell isn't a problem for you, and you take proper precautions during use,

diluted it works great on solid (non-porous) surfaces. C. MayAuthor, " The

Mold Survival Guide " May Indoor Air Investigations

LLCwww.mayindoorair.com

May 2, 2008

Dear Chrissy (or Shane), I'm not sure now who wrote originally

and who is responding now but I'll respond to Shane.

If you are going to post information anywhere, true for me as well,

you will be subject to scrutiny. When I scrutinized your Web site

and the comments by Chrissy earlier I was concerned about the

inaccuracies and misinformation being presented as fact. Jeff

May addressed the ones about bleach and I became concerned

about your " facts. " Fact means objective which can be verified by

experts, or at least by informed consensus.

The information you post as fact at http://www.moldremedy.biz/

meets neither criteria - at least not when applied to the built

environment occupied by people. It may, however, be magnificent

for the other the outdoor applications noted on your Web site and

in your response to me below.

Neither do lots of testimonials prove anything. Example, using

your own reasoning: Sharper Image had a bigger following with

more customers and higher profits than your company. But that

didn't change the fact they produced an air " purifier " that polluted

the air with ozone and wasn't very effective. It's CADR rating was

between 20 and 30 when even cheap HEPAs were 80-120 and

cost 3 times less. Consumer Union exposed them, the courts

agreed and the State of California outlawed products like theirs.

Another example: Alpine for years followed the same path and

was defeated in State and Federal Court. The advocates of their

products are beyond comparision with their belief and fervor.

They are nearly unstoppable and their minds will not be changed

in spite of the facts! And they have testimonials! What they don't

tell you are the stories when the product didn't work or caused

harm. Testimonials alone don't make them right or their products

safe and worthwhile. It certainly doesn't make them effective,

which is not my claim, but the decision of the Federal jury as

upheld by the appellant judge.

I'm sorry you feel that my disagreement and exposure of errors,

some of which you graciously accepted, is HATE. It is not hate

and other than some sarcasm I'm not aware of hateful attacks.

BTW, I am well aware of hate because I have experienced it

because of my views. Mostly from family, though. Not from

experts on all sides of the issue. I continue to be invited to speak

because of my views.

And, no, I have not forgotten what it is like to be disabled by all

these horrible chronic conditions. I used to be totally disabled. I

learned how to identify and avoid the worst of the causes of my

complaints and also was extremely fortunate to recover enough

to lead a very active life in a leadership role on a national level.

(I've attached my Bio for your reference). I've chosen a life of

service over profit to return what I can of my good (health)

fortune. A number of my friends are now multi-millionaires and I

am not. I was invited to join their business but they didn't meet my

criteria of " customer first, bank account next. "

Why are you attacking me for " all my knowledge? " Would you

rather have me dumb and stupid? This type of attack is like the

political ones against those who know something the speaker

doesn't, labeling them " elitist. " It takes more than knowledge to

be an elistist. An elitist is someone who has superior knowledge

and also looks down upon those that don't. Sharing knowledge is

not elitism, it is not hate, but empathy, care and respect for each

other.

You asked, " Where did you learn all this? " It started when I lost

over 12 years of productive life (and going deeply into debt) and

being forced to experiment to find what works and what doesn't.

Then the HUGE lesson I had to learn is that what specifically

worked for me didn't work for others. It didn't even continue

working for me. We are all different. We react to different things

in different way at different times and our recovery, such as it

may be, is also uniquely our own. My body changes and so does

the effect and the remedy. It's like a dog chasing its tail.

Instead of just searching the internet and passing on what I find, I

actively sought out experts in a variety of professions, trades, and

victims groups. I worked with with them and mostly learned. See

my attached Bio.

So we need sets of general principles to guide our specific

actions. That is part of what I learned, and continue to learn.

Principle #1: Killing or " eating " mold does not work in buildings

with sick people. The mold must be removed, totally, without

cross-contaminating the rest of the building.

Principle #2: The chemical used is usually as bad as or worse

on the occupant than the mold. It has to be individually checked

before use.

Principle #3: Moisture sources must be stopped.

Principle #4: Not all people recover from mold exposure. Dr

Shoemaker has identified about 23 percent of the population who

don't recover without medical intervention. Even then, not all

recover. THAT can be verified by a number of people on this

group. It works for most but not for all.

I don't have an uncanny ability for anything. If you think that then

you most likely believe in the authoritarian approach to helping

people: " I am the expert. Do as I say. Or you will die. " Then, if

they don't get well or they are unsatisfied with the results the

authoritarian says: " You didn't follow my orders! Get out of my

office! "

I don't even know exactly what is affecting me and have had to

learn to live with that. I certainly don't know exactly what is

affecting my clients and never claim to know. But that doesn't

mean there is no knowledge or that I can't help.

When people are suffering with chronic illness the last thing they

need is dogmatism, false assurances, or promotion of remedies

that work for the proponent without even finding out what the

client needs. There are no cookie-cutter approaches or silver

bullets.

What is needed is a process for self-discovery. Principles and

guidance to assist them to figure out what is happening to them

in a way THEY understand and can trust. Only then can they

make decisions with predicable outcomes. Why? Because

nobody knows all of what they are going through, what is causing

it and when it stops. Only the individual can figure that out

because it is only they who are reacting in that specific way.

But first, it helps to come to the acceptance that they have to act

before knowing the answers. It's a blind-faith leap off the cliff.

Pushing them makes it worse. Groups like this help because we

can share when we jumped off the cliff with a parachute and

when we didn't but should have.

If I have anything that is uncanny, it is the ability to ask questions

and occasionally help people also obtain and evaluate

information, regardless of the source, and apply it to their

experience. To help them sort through the appearances, the

errors, the unsubstantiated claims and what is not being said.

When I apply that process to your Web site I find it severely

wanting for people living in a building. Not for other applications.

But what I consider your mistake is also the mistake most experts

make. The first variable they remove from their studies is the

person and reports of their experience. What good is the

information that works in the lab but not for people where they

live? Studies and recommendations must include people.

If you have independant verification of your claims for your

product in buildings where there are people (testimonials don't

count) send it to me. If I am wrong I will change my opinion and

apologize.

In the meantime:

Your Web site makes the MSDS readily available and I thank you

for that.

However, it is impossible to read in most places and doesn't have

the formatting, language and categories of the MSDSs I'm

familiar with. It looks more like someone took info from the

manufacturer's copy and pasted portions onto a page with the

title and your Web site on it. Also, I can't find your MSDS, even by

Cat number or manufacturer, on any of the Internet database

searches. Nor can I find the company listed on your MSDS: The

Environmental Solution, 448 Snead Dr, in North Fort Myers, FL.

Help me out here.

Are your products registered with the EPA in accordance with

FIFRA? The claims you make indicate they should be but I see

no mention of one.

Finally, you haven't answered my original question about

Chrissy's statement about bleach not being an approved

remediation method by OSHA: Can you point me to remediation

methods approved by OSHA? Are your methods approved by

OSHA? This is important because many on this and other groups

would be tremendously helped with that knowledge.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Mr. Grimes;I too have gone to your website, I was just wondering where you

gained all of your knowledge. It looks like your techniques and knowledge may

have taken some time to develop or were you born with this uncanny ability,

knowledge,and expertise. Did you possibly learn through time or spend years in a

University? Were you attacked for your views and research? In response to your

comments to us.

> Point 1: You are absolutely correct and this has been corrected on the site,

we thank you. We meant to state that microbes eat molds and overtake

non-beneficial (BAD) bacteria germs/viruses etc...

> Point 2: We have used Ultra-Low Volume foggers for 3 years and are very aware

of what we are using, maybe you should check product definitions before you tell

us what you think we use. It is not an atomizer as you incorrectly guessed. The

microbes are diluted in water not in solvents or alcohol as you again guessed.

We go in before any corrective construction is done and treat all surfaces. A

minimal amount of water is used (1qt per 1000 sq ft of living space)

> Point 3 We explained how microbes travel by following a food source or in

moisture. In most homes most floors are not sealed or drywalled and can travel

through that route, besides that I guess you should ask the microbes. All we

know is we have proof through our customers testimonials that mold is no longer

present behind these walls. As far as fogging versus spraying or brushing on

microbes. We prefer to fog because we can obtain a more uniform application on

surfaces and with the microbes floating in the air they can help knock down mold

spores in the air.

> Point 4: Explained this in point 1. When saying bad bacteria we mean the 5% of

harmful bacteria and in saying good bacteria meaning the other 95% of beneficial

bacteria. You were very nice to point out you hardly thought microbes had a big

enough brain to distinguish between good and bad bacteria. Microbes being a

single cell microorganism and not having a brain I found your comment slightly

humorous. (I can be just as sarcastic as you) They are in this world to eat,

breed and die thats all. Our formulators grow specific microbes that have their

own function.

> Point 5: What is our training? This is not rocket science. We found this