Re: Re: Ultra viloet UV germacidal light kill toxic mold??

[Guest guest]

Anyone know if the ultra violet light should be installed on the central AC?

I have a man coming Monday to service ours for the summer. I only would have

one installed if it is recommend by an expert from this group. Usually when

I even mention the M word to any service person they just look at me like

I'm crazy. Most still just don't get it!!!

I'm sorry if I missed something on a former posting about this but would

love to have some info about it.

Sue

I don't know what it does but I know it works to make the air more

breathable. Last year when we were still in our mold home we bought a

window unit with an ultra violet light in it and it did make the air

seems fresher and better.

>

> Hi all,

> Does this type of uv germacidal light kill toxic mold? Anyone know??

> Any info is appreciated. Thanks

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info. I'll talk to my service guy about one next week. Are

they very expensive?

My sister has one installed in her central AC and she

says it is wonderful...says it is wonderful...<W

the small window unit.

**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car

listings at AOL Autos.

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[Guest guest]

My sister has one installed in her central AC and she

says it is wonderful...that was why I got the one in

the small window unit.

--- ssr3351@... wrote:

>

> Anyone know if the ultra violet light should be

> installed on the central AC?

> I have a man coming Monday to service ours for the

> summer. I only would have

> one installed if it is recommend by an expert from

> this group. Usually when

> I even mention the M word to any service person

> they just look at me like

> I'm crazy. Most still just don't get it!!!

> I'm sorry if I missed something on a former posting

> about this but would

> love to have some info about it.

>

> Sue

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

The only feedback I've had about this from some remediators and one hvac person

was that the air passing by the uv lights when the hvac system is on, make it

nearly impossible for the lights to do any good. The only benefit they think

that can occur is that if the light is pointed towrds the coils it could help

kill any mold that could congregate there. One thing that was suggested to me

was that uv lights that are in air filters where the lights can be concentrated

on the trapped mold would work to help, but it was stated as only the most

temporary fix until the source of mold is taken care of. Only a second-hand info

from a layperson.

Sam

ssr3351@... wrote:

Anyone know if the ultra violet light should be installed on the central AC?

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Sue,

I would be very careful with installing a UV unit in central AC. I'd

make sure they would take it out and refund the money if it didn't

work or if it caused reactions. Most sensitive people have

problems and only a few report beneficial results. I consider them

unnecessary for several reasons.

1. Mold needs 3 seconds to 5 minutes of exposure to be killed by

UV and the air moves through the UV light in a fraction of a

second. Not nearly enough time to kill mold. Even if they killed

mold the dead mold is just as much a problem as live mold.

(I cannot understand why this is so hard to accept. I've

asked this group and others if they can tell the difference

between dead mold and live mold and I have yet to hear

from one person who claims they can. Most complain

bitterly when mold is killed and they are still just as sick).

2. There is a small level of ozone generated which many of the

more sensitive individuals react to.

3. The UV can help keep clean cooling coils from growing mold,

and especially bacteria, but they must be of sufficient strength

and two of them, at least, must be properly positioned above and

below. Why? The fins of the coils create shadows and the UV

must shine directly on the fins. Trane insists UV cannot be

properly installed in the field so they will install them only before

the equipment leaves the factory. Again, this helps keep clean

coils clean but they do not clean moldy coils.

4. If the UV light shines on non-metal components those

components will deteriorate and have to be replaced.

5. Even if all the above were false, the UV would only be effective

on the mold that goes through the forced air system and the UV

light. It will not remove the original source of the mold. That

requires identifying the moisture source and removal of the mold

(and bacteria) at the source without spreading it around.

6. Finally, there is a lot of confusion lately about the need to kill

the mycotoxins, also stated as " kill toxic mold. " Mycotoxins are

not alive. Mycotoxins are a substance generated by mold. Saying

mycotoxins are alive is like saying our body waste is alive, or our

saliva is alive.

If UV is providing a beneficial change, the exposure source is

probably low level chemicals and not mold.

Can anyone tell the difference between live mold and dead mold?

Who has had a successful UV experience with mold? If I'm

wrong I need to know.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> --- ssr3351@... wrote:

>

> >

> > Anyone know if the ultra violet light should be

> > installed on the central AC?

> > I have a man coming Monday to service ours for the

> > summer. I only would have

> > one installed if it is recommend by an expert from

> > this group. Usually when

> > I even mention the M word to any service person

> > they just look at me like

> > I'm crazy. Most still just don't get it!!!

> > I'm sorry if I missed something on a former posting

> > about this but would

> > love to have some info about it.

> >

> > Sue

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Be a better friend, newshound, and

> know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

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>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, thanks so much for your reply and excellent information. We don't have

any problems here at home since we suffer from the good old land

humidity we run our AC all summer. Since I stay well at home I guess it's better

to

leave well enough alone and not fix what isn't broken. I certainly don't want

to create any problems that I don't already have or need!

I tend to panic and worry about everything so it's a comfort to have people

like you to keep me grounded.I don't know what I do without this group.

Again, thanks so much for all your help and support.

Sue

Sue,

I would be very careful with installing a UV unit in central AC. I'd

make sure they would take it out and refund the money if it didn't

work or if it caused reactions. Most sensitive people have

problems and only a few report beneficial results. I consider them

unnecessary for several reasons.

**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car

listings at AOL Autos.

(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)

[Guest guest]

One other thing to consider (and please and experts on the list can you verify

this) is the type and strength of the uv light. A number of them are not strong

enough and can also foul. In other words, they might still be on but not doing

the same type of job. It is important to ask these questions of any AC people.

We had one put in our new hvac unit back in 2002. The light and the unit

together with labor was $550. I think the replacement bulbs were also a few

hundred.

Sam

ssr3351@... wrote:

Thanks for the info. I'll talk to my service guy about one next week. Are

they very expensive?

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Thanks for confirming my own concerns about uv lights. Could you please,

explain what the conditions are where bacteria could occur in an hvac system and

also a home? What would lead you as a practioner to test for bacteria in a home?

What problems can arise because of bacteria?

Many thanks,

Sam

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

3. The UV can help keep clean cooling coils from growing mold,

and especially bacteria,

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Sam,

Excellent question. The most common way bacteria occurs in an

HVAC system is on the cooling coils of the A/C. The coils get wet

because they get very cold so they can chill the air as it passes

over it. The cold temperature is usually below the dew point,

especially in humid climates. If a surface is below the dew point

moisture condenses on the surface just like with a glass of ice

water on your kitchen table. Those of you in humid climates know

how much water can drip of one of those.

Because the fins are close together, like the fins on a car

radiator, the dampness and " dust " can collect and stick. A sticky

film can occur somewhat like plaque on your teeth if you don't

brush them.

Removing the " plaque " is not easy because it is persistent and

access is severely limited. For example, most duct cleaning

companies visually inspect the top of the coils. But it is the bottom

where the air first hits the fins and that is where the " dust " and

dampness collects. Cleaning the coils without bending and

damaging the fins is difficult. Which is why most duct cleaning

companies, even NADCA members, avoid them if at all possible.

Obviously, this does not always produce bacteria and it does not

always produce a problem or illness for sensitive occupants,

Which is what Sue just reported.

What can happen and what actually happens are often two very

different things. Which is also why not all moisture produces a

mold problem for all occupants. There are absolutely no

absolutes in life.

As for other conditions where bacteria can grow, I refer to the Inst

of Medicine report Damp Indoor Spaces and Health. It was

originally titeld Mold and Health but initial research concluded that

dampness indoors was causing much more than just mold.

Bacteria would also grow, often more quickly and to higher levels

than mold. It just doesn't form colonies large enough to see. So

mold gets the attention it deserves but is often the scapegoat.

These bacteria are non-infectious but many produce toxins called

endotoxins. Similar products from from molds are called

mycotoxins. Even though they have very different properties and

can produce very different symptoms, they can still cause

complaints. In fact, Aino Nevelanin was one of the first to study

this. Some reports include:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-

0668.2005.00344.x -or- http://tinyurl.com/4v4uxb

http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/reprint/9/12/2618

Others from Finland include Bacterial strains from moldy

buildings are highly potent inducers of inflammatory and cytotoxic

effects

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-

0668.2005.00345.x -or- http://tinyurl.com/3pqa3d

Google " dampness + bacteria + finland " for a bunch more.

Another interesting study is Microorganisms and volatile organic

compounds in airborne dust from damp residences

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1600-

0668.2003.00178.x -or- http://tinyurl.com/3l53wg

When would I test for bacteria? Almost never.

Bacteria sampling will only identify gram negative or gram

positive and the shape such as rod or spirochete. That's like

identifying animals only by land or by sea, and if they have legs,

fins or wings. Not much help when the entire kingdom is millions

of species, many of which are friendly and needed.

Understanding moisture and the biology bacteria, building

materials, building science, psychrometry (temp + humidity +

dewpoint), micro-environments and air movement is more

accurate and more representative than any lab testing for

bacteria. Just as it is for mold.

For most of us it doesn't need to be any more complicated than

knowing to wash your hands before eating. With mold and

bacteria if it is damp get it dry within a couple of days. If it is dirty,

clean it. " Clean and dry " is equivalent to " wash before eating. "

The difficulty is " common sense " is not recognized in court

rooms. Or in doctor's offices who are either ignorant or have

been unduly influenced by the " spin sense " of propaganda.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

>

> Thanks for confirming my own concerns about uv lights. Could you please,

explain what the conditions are where bacteria could occur in an hvac system and

also a home? What would lead you as a practioner to test for bacteria in a home?

What problems can arise because of bacteria?

>

> Many thanks,

> Sam

>

> " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

> 3. The UV can help keep clean cooling coils from growing mold,

> and especially bacteria,

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it

now.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Thank you very much for all this information. You covered all the bases and

have left me with much worthwhile material to study up on. I really appreciate

it. We're looking at having our home tested and with the discussion about

bacteria it led me to think that perhaps it was something we should test for as

well, just to rule anything out. As there are health issues we're dealing with

as well as home.

May I ask one more question? A while back there was a reference to mold plate

tests that consumers do and send off to labs as not always being accurate. Is

this in your opinion accurate and if so what would be the reasons why? Is it

because the mold plates get old or is there another reason?

Many thanks for your time and consideration,

Sam

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Excellent question. The most common way bacteria occurs in an

HVAC system is on the cooling coils of the A/C.

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Carl has infinite info on the plate issue and he uses different types for

different things so I will let hi respond on that of course. I have done the

send in method and it does not tell you much of anything really but I would like

Carl to also explain about the testing for bacteria as well. This is a new one

on me (unless I have just forgotten yet something else) but from Shoemakers

interview and some other things recently including info from Dr. Thrasher it is

apparently just as much aas an issue. So feel free to overload me with some more

information I obviosly need to know. I will then determine if my head is going

to explode or not.

Sam <yaddayadda53@...> wrote: Carl,

Thank you very much for all this information. You covered all the bases and have

left me with much worthwhile material to study up on. I really appreciate it.

We're looking at having our home tested and with the discussion about bacteria

it led me to think that perhaps it was something we should test for as well,

just to rule anything out. As there are health issues we're dealing with as well

as home.

May I ask one more question? A while back there was a reference to mold plate

tests that consumers do and send off to labs as not always being accurate. Is

this in your opinion accurate and if so what would be the reasons why? Is it

because the mold plates get old or is there another reason?

Many thanks for your time and consideration,

Sam

" Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

Excellent question. The most common way bacteria occurs in an

HVAC system is on the cooling coils of the A/C.

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Sam,

To answer your question about mold plates please also see the

copy of my yesterday's post with the subject: Inside vs Outside

immediately below my signature.

Mold plates, no matter who uses them, is the most inaccurate

method of sampling there is. It only finds the live spores and

recent research indicates there is 10 to 100 times more dead

spores and fungal fragments than live spores.

Plates only collect the bigger, heavier spores that settle out of the

air. The smaller ones like Penicillium and Aspergillus tend to be

under represented or missed altogether.

The type of plate agar (food) selects which molds will grow and

which won't. E.g. simply changing the agar will shift results from

mold to bacteria. Where the plate is placed and air movement all

effect results. One study from a few years ago indicated that

each colony (not spore, but a colony) on a plate represents from

600 to 1200 actual spores in the air. This is why most proponents

of settling plates freak out with more than 3-5 colonies. This

means there could be as many as 6,000.

But the question that remains unanswered, is each colony on the

plate all there is or just 1/1200 of the total?

And none of the air testing tells you where the mold originates. If

you don't remove the source and stop the moisture that is fueling

it, the problems continue. And, mold is not always the problem

and mold is often not the only problem.

Plates do provide some information but the meaning is not

contained in the numbers themselves. The meaning is created by

other factors such as discussed above. Finally, over-reliance on

mold and only mold leads to much disappointment and depleted

bank accounts.

If you use mold plates and get plates full of mold, that is reason

for further information but not necessarily reason to panic. That's

when a professional assessment, which may or may not include

sampling, may be desired. And the professional should conduct a

thorough, comprehensive inspection to see if sampling is needed

to answer questions that can't be answered with other means.

And if so, how many of what types of sample and what will the

numbers mean. BEFORE any samples are collected.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----Repeat of Inside v Outside----

Group,

First, Dr Shoemaker will be on next week, same place and time,

to continue his discussion with Radio Joe (Instructions at the end

of this e-mail). Check out the previous programs for lots of other

interesting stuff. In the meantime, a couple of comments about

inside vs outside mold. I don't disagree with any of the comments

so far but want to add a little about HOW to determine if the mold

in the samples are from outside or from the inside.

1. Jeff May has excellent work, some of which is in his books and

posted here before, about how outside mold spores and

fragments tend to be in single fragments rather than clusters.

Inside spores tend to be in clusters and clumps. Also, outside

spores tend to be " clean " but inside ones, especially where there

is forced air, tend to have smaller particles clinging to them

making them appear " dirty. " None of this can be determined by

settling plates and most " mold testers " don't know how to have

this analyzed (or that it even occurs).

2. Comparing inside to outside is not as simple as seeing " higher

pen/asp " inside than outside, or visa versa. First, " pen/asp " is not

a mold. Pen/asp is a created word combining " Penicillium " and

" Aspergillus, " indicating that the lab can't tell the difference

between the two because it was analyzed under a microscope.

Usually (not always) the sample must be cultured to tell them

apart. Second, the " species " of mold must be compared, usually

only by culturing and analysis. Simply comparing Aspergillus may

lead to totally erroneous conclusions. If A. flavus is inside and A.

fumigatus is outside the inside did not come from outside. Also,

I'm not too worried. But if the A. fumigatus is inside I'm

concerned. If a sensitized or compromised persion is also inside,

I'm very worried whether or not it is coming from inside or

outside.

3. The time at which the outside sample is collected and when

the inside sample is collected is important. It takes time for the

outside mold, dust and air molecules to transfer through the

building envelope to the inside breathing zone.

If doors and windows are open the time is nearly zero. But you

wouldn't get a difference anyway. If the the building is shut tight,

the outside will still get inside but we don't know if it takes 1

minute, 10 minutes or an hour. To see what is outside that gets

inside the outside should be collected first. Then wait for the

transfer time before collecting the inside sample - analyzed by

species. Don't know the transfer time? Neither does anybody

else! So nobody really knows. The conclusions are a guess, an

assumption, a belief.

4. Most of the examples offered can be determined by ourselves,

without sampling, to establish a guess, assumption or belief and

most of the time we are close enough. But proving it to the

satisfaction of defense attorneys and a jury in a court of law

requires much more than sampling.

It requires evidence of the pathway the mold species on the

fence, for example, took to enter the house and that there was no

other source of the same species. Then you need objective

evidence (not an assumption or belief) that you were exposed to

the actual spores of the mold species that came from the fence

and not from somewhere else.

You also need objective evidence that it wasn't an entirely

different source that caused your illness or disease (not just a

reaction that makes you feel ill). If it isn't something a doctor can

diagnose as an acceptable illness or disease then it is usually

dismissed as temporary and not a harm. If we persist in our

complaints then it is assumed to be psychogenic (see, they resort

to guessing and beliefs just like us real people! Hence, the power

of the ACOEM mold statement. They want to believe it so they

do.)

5. All the above is assuming the sampling and the analysis are

accurate. Much is not, even by mold testing people, many of

whom know little more than you do. They are running a business

and have experience selling something that makes money. The

ethical ones believe in what they are doing, whether it is true or

not. The professionals have studied, read, taken classes,

attended conferences, discussed with mentors, etc so they know

the limitations of what they do, not just how to move your money

into their pocket.

Similar types of considerations must be included in any mold

sampling for any reason, not just for comparing inside to outside

sources. Which is why the professionals don't do as much mold

sampling as they used to and don't rely on just the numbers when

forming their conclusions and recommendations. This is also

partly why mold samples by themselves don't hold up in court.

They require interpretation by professionals, several of which are

in this group, which can withstand challanges.

Mold sampling, however, can answer some simple direct

questions such as " is this spot mold or not mold? " Or, " what type

of mold is in the sample. " But no mold sampling by itself identifies

exposure, location of the mold to which you are exposed, that you

were exposed to the mold, or that it was mold that caused your

illness or disease. Those questions take a combination of

different types of information.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

 -----end Inside v Outside-----

> Carl,

>

> Thank you very much for all this information. You covered all the bases and

have left me with much worthwhile material to study up on. I really appreciate

it. We're looking at having our home tested and with the discussion about

bacteria it led me to think that perhaps it was something we should test for as

well, just to rule anything out. As there are health issues we're dealing with

as well as home.

>

> May I ask one more question? A while back there was a reference to mold

plate tests that consumers do and send off to labs as not always being accurate.

Is this in your opinion accurate and if so what would be the reasons why? Is it

because the mold plates get old or is there another reason?

>

> Many thanks for your time and consideration,

> Sam

>

> " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

> Excellent question. The most common way bacteria occurs in an

> HVAC system is on the cooling coils of the A/C.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it

now.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I hope you head doesn't explode! We'd all lose a good friend.

Buried in one of my long posts yesterday was a discussion about

bacteria, which are non-infectious:

When would I test for bacteria? Almost never.

Bacteria sampling will only identify gram negative or gram

positive and the shape such as rod or spirochete. That's

like identifying animals only by land or by sea, and if they

have legs, fins or wings. Not much help when the entire

kingdom is millions of species, many of which are friendly

and needed.

Understanding moisture and the biology bacteria, building

materials, building science, psychrometry (temp +

humidity + dewpoint), micro-environments and air

movement is more accurate and more representative

than any lab testing for bacteria. Just as it is for mold.

For most of us it doesn't need to be any more

complicated than knowing to wash your hands before

eating. With mold and bacteria if it is damp get it dry

within a couple of days. If it is dirty, clean it. " Clean and

dry " is equivalent to " wash before eating. "

The difficulty is " common sense " is not recognized in

court rooms. Or in doctor's offices who are either ignorant

or have been unduly influenced by the " spin sense " of

propaganda.

I would add to this, if a porous surface wasn't " clean and dry "

within a couple of days it should be removed and replaced. Semi-

porous surfaces, such as wood framing, can sometimes be

sanded. Hard surfaces can usually be cleaned with warm water

and a detergent to remove the film on the surface. Some of you

who are more sensitive have reported this is not sufficient for

hard surfaces. I don't know if that is because of mold mycotoxins

or bacteria endotoxins. Or, interactions with the surface. In one

sense it doesn't matter, you must stop the exposure by either

removing the source or removing yourself from the source.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl has infinite info on the plate issue and he uses different types for

different things so I will let hi respond on that of course. I have done the

send in method and it does not tell you much of anything really but I would like

Carl to also explain about the testing for bacteria as well. This is a new one

on me (unless I have just forgotten yet something else) but from Shoemakers

interview and some other things recently including info from Dr. Thrasher it is

apparently just as much aas an issue. So feel free to overload me with some more

information I obviosly need to know. I will then determine if my head is going

to explode or not.