Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 > > > > 1. Are there reports pertaining to PEG, as opposed to EG? > > not sure what reports are being asked about? The adverse event reports? As far as I know, the adverse event report database that Jeanie has posted here before were all from people who had taken PEG3350 (e.g., Miralax, GoLytely, etc.). They may have been taking other meds at the same time, but these event reports all include PEG not EG. To my knowledge, no one in the mainstream medical or research communities knows of or is willing to acknowledge the hypothesis that PEG is being degraded in the GI tract by intestinal bacterial strains (or by other potential mechanisms) - I still haven't had time to write up a manuscript on that....So, to my knowledge, no one in mainstream medicine believes that EG-poisoning-like symptoms can result from ingesting PEG. One member here was going to ask her child's physician to test her for EG toxicity because that child was still on Miralax and experiencing side effects. If I recall correctly, that doctor did not go forward with EG-toxicity testing (maybe told the parent there's no test for that...which is wrong. . .I don't remember the details but it all should be in the message archives here). I had once contacted a researcher in Germany who reported some results of giving PEG to patients - they found that a certain percentage was not re-captured from the patients' stools. I asked her if they checked for smaller molecules (Miralax has a molecular weight of 3350 - so that was the only size PEG molecule they were looking for from the stools - not smaller, possibly broken down molecules) or if they checked for EG in the bloodstream. She said they did not, but did not seem interested enough in my hypothesis to recheck the samples or do more testing. Anyway - the bottom line is that it seems that no one in mainstream medicine is willing to acknowledge the possibility of EG being released after ingestion of PEG and causing EG-poisoning-like symptoms (such as oxalate crystals in urine and stool)..... > > 2. What is the molecular difference between PEG and EG? > > PEG is polyethylene glycol, a polymer of ethylene glycol. Like beads on a string - where each bead is EG and the string full of beads is PEG. I've written slightly better explanations of this in posts some time ago - sorry I'm in hurry & can't look them up right now. > > 3. Are the adverse reports only on people who used PEG and the > other > > meds listed or is it a culmination of any kind of adverse reaction > to the > > medications listed? > not sure I could answer this one. I haven't looked very closely at any of the adverse event reports as I knew I didn't want to give my child this stuff so I didn't need convincing by seeing all the AERs..! HTH a little... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Hi Tracie - glad to help - it's encouraging to hear that a mainstream doc is willing to at least lend an ear and consider these ideas. Below I'll paste a bit of a compilation of some info I have emailed and/or posted in the past that also may be helpful... Thanks for pursuing this with your doc!! best, .. . . . . . .. . . . .. . One thing that is intriguing to me is that there are bacteria that can degrade PEG and release at least some EG molecules. These bacteria live in sewage sludge and some of them can live in the human GI tract. I have not had time to look up all the strains that can degrade PEG and compare that list to the strains that are commonly found in the human GI tract. BUT, I have to say that I do not think it too far-fetched to imagine that, at least in some people, some of the PEG could be broken down at least a bit to release some EG. Some of the people at the Miralax group have posted that their kids can be on Miralax for 7-10 days before having a bowel movement. That means that 7-10 days worth of PEG is building up in the GI tract with plenty of time for some degradation to occur - if the proper bacteria were present and the conditions were just right. There are a lot of IF's and I'm not sure when/if I'll find a physician/researcher interested in following up on this hypothesis. I guess my conclusion is that it is not entirely unreasonable to imagine that the things some of these parents are seeing in their children that resemble EG toxicity might actually be EG toxicity. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I have seen several abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria that are isolated from sewage sludge, but haven't had time to search for evidence that certain of these other PEG-degrading strains can or do inhabit human guts. However, since they are isolated from sewage sludge, it does not seem unreasonable to me to think at least some of these strains could be in at least some humans' guts. I think the Pelobacter species (1st abstract below & in a few other studies) are related to the desulfobacteria - which I think Owens (at Trying Low Oxalates board) has told me can be found in the human GI tract. One strain that is particularly interesting to me is Pseudomonas aeruginosa (2nd abstract below). It is known that P. aeruginosa can inhabit the human gut, and Owens mentioned to me that she thought that one researcher (or physician?) had noted p.aeruginosa more frequently in autistic children..but I never had time to follow up with that researcher/physician. Anyway, since P. aeruginosa is known to be able to inhabit the human GI tract, presumably it could degrade PEG there (especially in an impacted person with slow transit time)….. Here are two abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria: Appl Environ Microbiol. 1983 Jun;45(6):1905-13. Fermentative degradation of polyethylene glycol by a strictly anaerobic, gram-negative, nonsporeforming bacterium, Pelobacter venetianus sp. nov. Schink B, Stieb M. The synthetic polyether polyethylene glycol (PEG) with a molecular weight of 20,000 was anaerobically degraded in enrichment cultures inoculated with mud of limnic and marine origins. Three strains (Gra PEG 1, Gra PEG 2, and Ko PEG 2) of rod-shaped, gram-negative, nonsporeforming, strictly anaerobic bacteria were isolated in mineral medium with PEG as the sole source of carbon and energy. All strains degraded dimers, oligomers, and polymers of PEG up to a molecular weight of 20,000 completely by fermentation to nearly equal amounts of acetate and ethanol. The monomer ethylene glycol was not degraded. An ethylene glycol-fermenting anaerobe (strain Gra EG 12) isolated from the same enrichments was identified as Acetobacterium woodii. The PEG-fermenting strains did not excrete extracellular depolymerizing enzymes and were inhibited by ethylene glycol, probably owing to a blocking of the cellular uptake system. PEG, some PEG-containing nonionic detergents, 1,2-propanediol, 1,2-butanediol, glycerol, and acetoin were the only growth substrates utilized of a broad variety of sugars, organic acids, and alcohols. The isolates did not reduce sulfate, sulfur, thiosulfate, or nitrate and were independent of growth factors. In coculture with A. woodii or Methanospirillum hungatei, PEGs and ethanol were completely fermented to acetate (and methane). A marine isolate is described as the type strain of a new species, Pelobacter venetianus sp. nov. Its physiology and ecological significance, as well as the importance and possible mechanism of anaerobic polyether degradation, are discussed. PMID: 6881964 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ---------------------------------------------------------- Appl Microbiol. 1975 May;29(5):621-5. Microbial degradation of polyethylene glycols. Haines JR, M. Mono-, di-, tri-, and tetraethylene glycols and polyethylene glycols (PEG) with molecular weight up to 20,000 were degraded by soil microorganisms. A strain of Pseudomonas aeruginosa able to use a PEG of average molecular weight 20,000 was isolated from soil. Washed cells oxidized mono- and tetraethylene glycols, but O2 consumption was not detectable when such cells were incubated for short periods with PEG 20,000. However, the bacteria excreted an enzyme which converted low- and high-molecular-weight PEG to a product utilized by washed P. aeruginosa cells. Gas chromatography of the supernatant of a culture grown on PEG 20,000 revealed the presence of a compound co-chromatographing with diethylene glycol. A metabolite formed from PEG 20,000 by the extracellular enzyme preparation was identified as ethylene glycol by combined gas chromatography-mass spectrometry. PMID: 807161 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] *This article mentions that a number of bacteria were found that could use PEG 20,000 as their sole carbon source but that the p. aeruginosa strain was chosen for further characterization. > > - > > This information is absolutely fantastic. I do think we have someone in > mainstream medical who is willing to listen. This is why he asked these > questions. I couldn't provide answers, but now I can show him this post and > talk more with him. He is sincerely interested in this. He is not placating > me in any way. > > To answer your question you placed in Question 1, the reports he/I asked > about where the reports listed in the files section of this group. If you > click on " files " there is a list of EG Toxicity. He was wondering since the > reports all comment on EG, was there anything specific to PEG? Then the > question of what's the difference between EG and PEG came up. I see now > where you were going with the EG Toxicity files (or whoever posted them) - > how EG is linked to PEG. > > I will surely share this info with him, as well as these responses. > > Thanks for all this info - it's very helpful. Is there anything else you > would like to relay to him? He seems to want to hear us. > > Tracie > > > > From: miralax [mailto:miralax ] On Behalf Of > littlelief > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:16 PM > To: miralax > Subject: Re: doc questions > > > > > > > > > 1. Are there reports pertaining to PEG, as opposed to EG? > > > > not sure what reports are being asked about? The adverse event > reports? As far as I know, the adverse event report database that > Jeanie has posted here before were all from people who had taken > PEG3350 (e.g., Miralax, GoLytely, etc.). They may have been taking > other meds at the same time, but these event reports all include PEG > not EG. To my knowledge, no one in the mainstream medical or research > communities knows of or is willing to acknowledge the hypothesis that > PEG is being degraded in the GI tract by intestinal bacterial strains > (or by other potential mechanisms) - I still haven't had time to write > up a manuscript on that....So, to my knowledge, no one in mainstream > medicine believes that EG-poisoning-like symptoms > can result from ingesting PEG. > > One member here was going to ask her child's physician to test her for > EG toxicity because that child was still on Miralax and experiencing > side effects. If I recall correctly, that doctor did not go forward > with EG-toxicity testing (maybe told the parent there's no test for > that...which is wrong. . .I don't remember the details but it all > should be in the message archives here). > > I had once contacted a researcher in Germany who reported some > results of giving PEG to patients - they found that a certain > percentage was not re-captured from the patients' stools. I asked her > if they checked for smaller molecules (Miralax has a molecular weight > of 3350 - so that was the only size PEG molecule they were looking for > from the stools - not smaller, possibly broken down molecules) or if > they checked for EG in the bloodstream. She said they did not, but > did not seem interested enough in my hypothesis to recheck the samples > or do more testing. > > Anyway - the bottom line is that it seems that no one in mainstream > medicine is willing to acknowledge the possibility of EG being > released after ingestion of PEG and causing EG-poisoning-like symptoms > (such as oxalate crystals in urine and stool)..... > > > > 2. What is the molecular difference between PEG and EG? > > > > PEG is polyethylene glycol, a polymer of ethylene glycol. Like beads > on a string - where each bead is EG and the string full of beads is > PEG. I've written slightly better explanations of this in posts some > time ago - sorry I'm in hurry & can't look them up right now. > > > > 3. Are the adverse reports only on people who used PEG and the > > other > > > meds listed or is it a culmination of any kind of adverse reaction > > to the > > > medications listed? > > > not sure I could answer this one. I haven't looked very closely at > any of the adverse event reports as I knew I didn't want to give my > child this stuff so I didn't need convincing by seeing all the AERs..! > > HTH a little... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.