Re: What to take to the GI

[Guest guest]

,

I would suggest the following information. This is from

. , I hope you don’t mind me cutting and pasting (and giving due

credit). This is pretty clear on how PEG works dangerously in the systems of children.

You could also print off the anecdotal information from the miralax groups site

– sometimes anectodals work well with docs. Or, you might simply have to say due

to personal conviction, you will not use Miralax and there is no point in

discussing it (in a nice, polite way of course!) and to please consider other

options.

Tracie

One thing that is intriguing to me is that there are bacteria that can

degrade PEG and release at least some EG molecules. These bacteria

live in sewage sludge and some of them can live in the human GI tract.

I have not had time to look up all the strains that can degrade PEG

and compare that list to the strains that are commonly found in the

human GI tract. BUT, I have to say that I do not think it too

far-fetched to imagine that, at least in some people, some of the PEG

could be broken down at least a bit to release some EG.

Some of the people at the Miralax group have posted that their kids

can be on Miralax for 7-10 days before having a bowel movement. That

means that 7-10 days worth of PEG is building up in the GI tract with

plenty of time for some degradation to occur - if the proper bacteria

were present and the conditions were just right. There are a lot of

IF's and I'm not sure when/if I'll find a physician/researcher

interested in following up on this hypothesis. I guess my conclusion

is that it is not entirely unreasonable to imagine that the things

some of these parents are seeing in their children that resemble EG

toxicity might actually be EG toxicity.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have seen several abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria that are

isolated from sewage sludge, but haven't had time to search for

evidence that certain of these other PEG-degrading strains can or do

inhabit human guts. However, since they are isolated from sewage

sludge, it does not seem unreasonable to me to think at least some of

these strains could be in at least some humans' guts.

I think the Pelobacter species (1st abstract below & in a few other

studies) are related to the desulfobacteria - which I think

Owens (at Trying Low Oxalates board) has told me can be found in the

human GI tract.

One strain that is particularly interesting to me is Pseudomonas

aeruginosa (2nd abstract below). It is known that P. aeruginosa can

inhabit the human gut, and Owens mentioned to me that she

thought that one researcher (or physician?) had noted p.aeruginosa

more frequently in autistic children..but I never had time to follow

up with that researcher/physician.

Anyway, since P. aeruginosa is known to be able to inhabit the human

GI tract, presumably it could degrade PEG there (especially in an

impacted person with slow transit time)…..

Here are two abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria:

Appl Environ Microbiol. 1983 Jun;45(6):1905-13.

Fermentative degradation of polyethylene glycol by a strictly

anaerobic, gram-negative, nonsporeforming bacterium, Pelobacter

venetianus sp. nov.

Schink B, Stieb M.

The synthetic polyether polyethylene glycol (PEG) with a molecular

weight of 20,000 was anaerobically degraded in enrichment cultures

inoculated with mud of limnic and marine origins. Three strains (Gra

PEG 1, Gra PEG 2, and Ko PEG 2) of rod-shaped, gram-negative,

nonsporeforming, strictly anaerobic bacteria were isolated in mineral

medium with PEG as the sole source of carbon and energy. All strains

degraded dimers, oligomers, and polymers of PEG up to a molecular

weight of 20,000 completely by fermentation to nearly equal amounts of

acetate and ethanol. The monomer ethylene glycol was not degraded. An

ethylene glycol-fermenting anaerobe (strain Gra EG 12) isolated from

the same enrichments was identified as Acetobacterium woodii. The

PEG-fermenting strains did not excrete extracellular depolymerizing

enzymes and were inhibited by ethylene glycol, probably owing to a

blocking of the cellular uptake system. PEG, some PEG-containing

nonionic detergents, 1,2-propanediol, 1,2-butanediol, glycerol, and

acetoin were the only growth substrates utilized of a broad variety of

sugars, organic acids, and alcohols. The isolates did not reduce

sulfate, sulfur, thiosulfate, or nitrate and were independent of

growth factors. In coculture with A. woodii or Methanospirillum

hungatei, PEGs and ethanol were completely fermented to acetate (and

methane). A marine isolate is described as the type strain of a new

species, Pelobacter venetianus sp. nov. Its physiology and ecological

significance, as well as the importance and possible mechanism of

anaerobic polyether degradation, are discussed.

PMID: 6881964 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

----------------------------------------------------------

Appl Microbiol. 1975 May;29(5):621-5.

Microbial degradation of polyethylene glycols.

Haines JR, M.

Mono-, di-, tri-, and tetraethylene glycols and polyethylene glycols

(PEG) with molecular weight up to 20,000 were degraded by soil

microorganisms. A strain of Pseudomonas aeruginosa able to use a PEG

of average molecular weight 20,000 was isolated from soil. Washed

cells oxidized mono- and tetraethylene glycols, but O2 consumption was

not detectable when such cells were incubated for short periods with

PEG 20,000. However, the bacteria excreted an enzyme which converted

low- and high-molecular-weight PEG to a product utilized by washed P.

aeruginosa cells. Gas chromatography of the supernatant of a culture

grown on PEG 20,000 revealed the presence of a compound

co-chromatographing with diethylene glycol. A metabolite formed from

PEG 20,000 by the extracellular enzyme preparation was identified as

ethylene glycol by combined gas chromatography-mass spectrometry.

PMID: 807161 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*This article mentions that a number of bacteria were found that could

use PEG 20,000 as their sole carbon source but that the p. aeruginosa

strain was chosen for further characterization.

From:

miralax [mailto:miralax ] On Behalf Of megsoracco

Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:39 AM

To: miralax

Subject: What to take to the GI

We have an appt coming up with the GI who put

us on Miralax. Just

wondering what is the best info to take from the files to show her

that this stuff is not good?

I printed the one from Dana's view for my ped and she never said

anything about it.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for this. I am confused, which anectodals are you referring to

on the groups site? Thanks, megan

>

> ,

>

> I would suggest the following information. This is from .

, I

> hope you don't mind me cutting and pasting (and giving due credit).

This is

> pretty clear on how PEG works dangerously in the systems of

children. You

> could also print off the anecdotal information from the miralax

groups site

> - sometimes anectodals work well with docs. Or, you might simply

have to say

> due to personal conviction, you will not use Miralax and there is no

point

> in discussing it (in a nice, polite way of course!) and to please

consider

> other options.

>

> Tracie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> One thing that is intriguing to me is that there are bacteria that can

> degrade PEG and release at least some EG molecules. These bacteria

> live in sewage sludge and some of them can live in the human GI tract.

> I have not had time to look up all the strains that can degrade PEG

> and compare that list to the strains that are commonly found in the

> human GI tract. BUT, I have to say that I do not think it too

> far-fetched to imagine that, at least in some people, some of the PEG

> could be broken down at least a bit to release some EG.

>

> Some of the people at the Miralax group have posted that their kids

> can be on Miralax for 7-10 days before having a bowel movement. That

> means that 7-10 days worth of PEG is building up in the GI tract with

> plenty of time for some degradation to occur - if the proper bacteria

> were present and the conditions were just right. There are a lot of

> IF's and I'm not sure when/if I'll find a physician/researcher

> interested in following up on this hypothesis. I guess my conclusion

> is that it is not entirely unreasonable to imagine that the things

> some of these parents are seeing in their children that resemble EG

> toxicity might actually be EG toxicity.

>

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

> I have seen several abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria that are

> isolated from sewage sludge, but haven't had time to search for

> evidence that certain of these other PEG-degrading strains can or do

> inhabit human guts. However, since they are isolated from sewage

> sludge, it does not seem unreasonable to me to think at least some of

> these strains could be in at least some humans' guts.

>

> I think the Pelobacter species (1st abstract below & in a few other

> studies) are related to the desulfobacteria - which I think

> Owens (at Trying Low Oxalates board) has told me can be found in the

> human GI tract.

>

> One strain that is particularly interesting to me is Pseudomonas

> aeruginosa (2nd abstract below). It is known that P. aeruginosa can

> inhabit the human gut, and Owens mentioned to me that she

> thought that one researcher (or physician?) had noted p.aeruginosa

> more frequently in autistic children..but I never had time to follow

> up with that researcher/physician.

>

> Anyway, since P. aeruginosa is known to be able to inhabit the human

> GI tract, presumably it could degrade PEG there (especially in an

> impacted person with slow transit time)...

>

> Here are two abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria:

>

> Appl Environ Microbiol. 1983 Jun;45(6):1905-13.

>

> Fermentative degradation of polyethylene glycol by a strictly

> anaerobic, gram-negative, nonsporeforming bacterium, Pelobacter

> venetianus sp. nov.

> Schink B, Stieb M.

>

> The synthetic polyether polyethylene glycol (PEG) with a molecular

> weight of 20,000 was anaerobically degraded in enrichment cultures

> inoculated with mud of limnic and marine origins. Three strains (Gra

> PEG 1, Gra PEG 2, and Ko PEG 2) of rod-shaped, gram-negative,

> nonsporeforming, strictly anaerobic bacteria were isolated in mineral

> medium with PEG as the sole source of carbon and energy. All strains

> degraded dimers, oligomers, and polymers of PEG up to a molecular

> weight of 20,000 completely by fermentation to nearly equal amounts of

> acetate and ethanol. The monomer ethylene glycol was not degraded. An

> ethylene glycol-fermenting anaerobe (strain Gra EG 12) isolated from

> the same enrichments was identified as Acetobacterium woodii. The

> PEG-fermenting strains did not excrete extracellular depolymerizing

> enzymes and were inhibited by ethylene glycol, probably owing to a

> blocking of the cellular uptake system. PEG, some PEG-containing

> nonionic detergents, 1,2-propanediol, 1,2-butanediol, glycerol, and

> acetoin were the only growth substrates utilized of a broad variety of

> sugars, organic acids, and alcohols. The isolates did not reduce

> sulfate, sulfur, thiosulfate, or nitrate and were independent of

> growth factors. In coculture with A. woodii or Methanospirillum

> hungatei, PEGs and ethanol were completely fermented to acetate (and

> methane). A marine isolate is described as the type strain of a new

> species, Pelobacter venetianus sp. nov. Its physiology and ecological

> significance, as well as the importance and possible mechanism of

> anaerobic polyether degradation, are discussed.

>

> PMID: 6881964 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> ----------------------------------------------------------

>

> Appl Microbiol. 1975 May;29(5):621-5.

> Microbial degradation of polyethylene glycols.

> Haines JR, M.

>

> Mono-, di-, tri-, and tetraethylene glycols and polyethylene glycols

> (PEG) with molecular weight up to 20,000 were degraded by soil

> microorganisms. A strain of Pseudomonas aeruginosa able to use a PEG

> of average molecular weight 20,000 was isolated from soil. Washed

> cells oxidized mono- and tetraethylene glycols, but O2 consumption was

> not detectable when such cells were incubated for short periods with

> PEG 20,000. However, the bacteria excreted an enzyme which converted

> low- and high-molecular-weight PEG to a product utilized by washed P.

> aeruginosa cells. Gas chromatography of the supernatant of a culture

> grown on PEG 20,000 revealed the presence of a compound

> co-chromatographing with diethylene glycol. A metabolite formed from

> PEG 20,000 by the extracellular enzyme preparation was identified as

> ethylene glycol by combined gas chromatography-mass spectrometry.

>

> PMID: 807161 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

> *This article mentions that a number of bacteria were found that could

> use PEG 20,000 as their sole carbon source but that the p. aeruginosa

> strain was chosen for further characterization.

>

>

>

>

>

> From: miralax [mailto:miralax ] On

Behalf Of

> megsoracco

> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:39 AM

> To: miralax

> Subject: What to take to the GI

>

>

>

> We have an appt coming up with the GI who put us on Miralax. Just

> wondering what is the best info to take from the files to show her

> that this stuff is not good?

> I printed the one from Dana's view for my ped and she never said

> anything about it.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tracie,

don't mind - the info I sent you was from my previous posts (both here

and at Trying Low Oxalates) or from my emails to Merry, Jeanie, and

LeeAnn shortly after I'd joined this group not quite 2 yrs ago.

Though I had never given my son Miralax, I was so moved by all the

stories here and the possible side effects people were noticing, that

I wanted to figure out what was going on. I poked around and did a

lot of reading/researching in the medical & research literature. I

came up with that hypothesis & emailed it to Merry (Miralax moderator)

who pointed me in the direction of Owens (at the Trying Low

Oxalates group) and, as it turns out, many minds think alike - she,

too, had read about some PEG degrading bacteria (the desulpho-bacteria).

Getting the hypothesis out to someone/anyone who will listen to it and

perhaps help do some pretty easy experiments to test the hypothesis is

what matters most!

keep us posted!

best,

> >

> > ,

> >

> > I would suggest the following information. This is from .

> , I

> > hope you don't mind me cutting and pasting (and giving due credit).

> This is

> > pretty clear on how PEG works dangerously in the systems of

> children. You

> > could also print off the anecdotal information from the miralax

> groups site

> > - sometimes anectodals work well with docs. Or, you might simply

> have to say

> > due to personal conviction, you will not use Miralax and there is no

> point

> > in discussing it (in a nice, polite way of course!) and to please

> consider

> > other options.

> >

> > Tracie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > One thing that is intriguing to me is that there are bacteria that can

> > degrade PEG and release at least some EG molecules. These bacteria

> > live in sewage sludge and some of them can live in the human GI tract.

> > I have not had time to look up all the strains that can degrade PEG

> > and compare that list to the strains that are commonly found in the

> > human GI tract. BUT, I have to say that I do not think it too

> > far-fetched to imagine that, at least in some people, some of the PEG

> > could be broken down at least a bit to release some EG.

> >

> > Some of the people at the Miralax group have posted that their kids

> > can be on Miralax for 7-10 days before having a bowel movement. That

> > means that 7-10 days worth of PEG is building up in the GI tract with

> > plenty of time for some degradation to occur - if the proper bacteria

> > were present and the conditions were just right. There are a lot of

> > IF's and I'm not sure when/if I'll find a physician/researcher

> > interested in following up on this hypothesis. I guess my conclusion

> > is that it is not entirely unreasonable to imagine that the things

> > some of these parents are seeing in their children that resemble EG

> > toxicity might actually be EG toxicity.

> >

> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

> > I have seen several abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria that are

> > isolated from sewage sludge, but haven't had time to search for

> > evidence that certain of these other PEG-degrading strains can or do

> > inhabit human guts. However, since they are isolated from sewage

> > sludge, it does not seem unreasonable to me to think at least some of

> > these strains could be in at least some humans' guts.

> >

> > I think the Pelobacter species (1st abstract below & in a few other

> > studies) are related to the desulfobacteria - which I think

> > Owens (at Trying Low Oxalates board) has told me can be found in the

> > human GI tract.

> >

> > One strain that is particularly interesting to me is Pseudomonas

> > aeruginosa (2nd abstract below). It is known that P. aeruginosa can

> > inhabit the human gut, and Owens mentioned to me that she

> > thought that one researcher (or physician?) had noted p.aeruginosa

> > more frequently in autistic children..but I never had time to follow

> > up with that researcher/physician.

> >

> > Anyway, since P. aeruginosa is known to be able to inhabit the human

> > GI tract, presumably it could degrade PEG there (especially in an

> > impacted person with slow transit time)...

> >

> > Here are two abstracts on PEG-degrading bacteria:

> >

> > Appl Environ Microbiol. 1983 Jun;45(6):1905-13.

> >

> > Fermentative degradation of polyethylene glycol by a strictly

> > anaerobic, gram-negative, nonsporeforming bacterium, Pelobacter

> > venetianus sp. nov.

> > Schink B, Stieb M.

> >

> > The synthetic polyether polyethylene glycol (PEG) with a molecular

> > weight of 20,000 was anaerobically degraded in enrichment cultures

> > inoculated with mud of limnic and marine origins. Three strains (Gra

> > PEG 1, Gra PEG 2, and Ko PEG 2) of rod-shaped, gram-negative,

> > nonsporeforming, strictly anaerobic bacteria were isolated in mineral

> > medium with PEG as the sole source of carbon and energy. All strains

> > degraded dimers, oligomers, and polymers of PEG up to a molecular

> > weight of 20,000 completely by fermentation to nearly equal amounts of

> > acetate and ethanol. The monomer ethylene glycol was not degraded. An

> > ethylene glycol-fermenting anaerobe (strain Gra EG 12) isolated from

> > the same enrichments was identified as Acetobacterium woodii. The

> > PEG-fermenting strains did not excrete extracellular depolymerizing

> > enzymes and were inhibited by ethylene glycol, probably owing to a

> > blocking of the cellular uptake system. PEG, some PEG-containing

> > nonionic detergents, 1,2-propanediol, 1,2-butanediol, glycerol, and

> > acetoin were the only growth substrates utilized of a broad variety of

> > sugars, organic acids, and alcohols. The isolates did not reduce

> > sulfate, sulfur, thiosulfate, or nitrate and were independent of

> > growth factors. In coculture with A. woodii or Methanospirillum

> > hungatei, PEGs and ethanol were completely fermented to acetate (and

> > methane). A marine isolate is described as the type strain of a new

> > species, Pelobacter venetianus sp. nov. Its physiology and ecological

> > significance, as well as the importance and possible mechanism of

> > anaerobic polyether degradation, are discussed.

> >

> > PMID: 6881964 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> > ----------------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Appl Microbiol. 1975 May;29(5):621-5.

> > Microbial degradation of polyethylene glycols.

> > Haines JR, M.

> >

> > Mono-, di-, tri-, and tetraethylene glycols and polyethylene glycols

> > (PEG) with molecular weight up to 20,000 were degraded by soil

> > microorganisms. A strain of Pseudomonas aeruginosa able to use a PEG

> > of average molecular weight 20,000 was isolated from soil. Washed

> > cells oxidized mono- and tetraethylene glycols, but O2 consumption was

> > not detectable when such cells were incubated for short periods with

> > PEG 20,000. However, the bacteria excreted an enzyme which converted

> > low- and high-molecular-weight PEG to a product utilized by washed P.

> > aeruginosa cells. Gas chromatography of the supernatant of a culture

> > grown on PEG 20,000 revealed the presence of a compound

> > co-chromatographing with diethylene glycol. A metabolite formed from

> > PEG 20,000 by the extracellular enzyme preparation was identified as

> > ethylene glycol by combined gas chromatography-mass spectrometry.

> >

> > PMID: 807161 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> > *This article mentions that a number of bacteria were found that could

> > use PEG 20,000 as their sole carbon source but that the p. aeruginosa

> > strain was chosen for further characterization.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > From: miralax [mailto:miralax ] On

> Behalf Of

> > megsoracco

> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:39 AM

> > To: miralax

> > Subject: What to take to the GI

> >

> >

> >

> > We have an appt coming up with the GI who put us on Miralax. Just

> > wondering what is the best info to take from the files to show her

> > that this stuff is not good?

> > I printed the one from Dana's view for my ped and she never said

> > anything about it.

> >

> >

>