Re: Cassandra and Apollo (Maxine Aston) -Workshop feedback

[Guest guest]

Really great post, Becky. Thanks so much for sharing your experiences

with Maxine's workshop.

> I did ask her about the gender distinction in the Cassandra idea, and

basically it's to do with availability and evidence. She's had two gay men on

the course but never heard from any straight men re their problems with Aspie

Wives. She doesn't discount it, but doesn't do anything to balance it up, as it

is such a small minority of people who may be affected and very hard to reach.

I suspected as much. It seems that most people who know about Cassandra

'syndrome' are active in some sort of AS focused community, or in

therapy with a practitioner who is knowledgeable about AS and how it can

impact relationships.

If one is not even aware that AS exists (or is not very well-informed

about the condition), they may not even know that their partner/spouse

is on the spectrum. [That was my situation with my codependent NT

husband.] Thus, it's possible to be a Cassandra like my husband and not

even know it. All you know is that you are miserable, bitter, and worn-out.

> Before I go any further, CJ, you explained so eloquently and concisely what I

wanted to be able to express, about some of the Aspie traits that are less

positive.

I'm glad my post worked for you, Becky. It seemed to work for Liz too.

So at least I reached a few people.

I must admit to having been afraid to post that message, as I feared

that some Aspies would become defensive, react emotionally to the

examples used, and accuse me of " Aspie bashing " .... thereby blinding

them to the point I was trying to make.

That sort of thing happens to a lot of us in the AS online community, as

it seems that a lot of Aspies are very sensitive to POVs that they

perceive as taking sides in favor of the NT party's feelings. In their

defensiveness, these Aspies often take the all-or-nothing position that

if one is not 100% positive with respect to AS, they are somehow the

enemy. I've actually been called a " fake Aspie " and " faux NT " and had

my diagnosis challenged for asserting that NTs also have feelings and

that many of their ways of navigating the world make a whole lot of

sense in the grand scheme of things.

Thus, it's understandable that I have become very wary of sharing ideas

that might possibly hurt someone's feelings and trigger various knees to

jerk.

> The women on the group were such a delight. I don't want to go into too much

detail as a respect for their privacy but it was clear that every one of those

women loved their Aspie man so much. Many of them had at least one AS child as

well, with their man. We were all at such different stages of our relationships

that some were thinking about having to leave their partners, because their

partners were clearly AS but refused to address the relationship issues or even

contemplate their possible diagnosis point blank. It was so sad to see the pain

those women were going through, because they love there partner, but realise

that they need to protect themselves and their children from this 'caged tiger'.

That phrase came up a lot. We all had our stories, and there were so many 'My

God, my hubby does that too' and 'I feel like that too'!

That's been my experience with the Cassandra population too, Becky.

Where I have difficulty with these women is that many are not very

self-aware, and are often still stuck in the mode of blaming AS for

every disappointment in their life. That becomes tedious to listen to

after awhile. I find them so much nicer to be around after they pass

through that blaming stage (assuming they do) and start attending

workshops.

> The focus seemed to be on enabling us to realise that we allowed the

relationships to be poor, by going along with it, and trying to meet the AS

man's needs, mostly even giving up work for focus on this task, along with child

rearing.

Great focus. Until this population comes to realize that they too

played a role in the relationship dynamic, they are likely to remain

stuck in a victim mentality, where they blame (or perhaps even abuse)

their Aspie partner/spouse. AS is only one aspect of these very complex

dysfunctional relationship dynamics.

> Like it: The one that Maxine promoted as by far the preferred one, but that

couldn't be achieved unless the other partner was at least partly willing to

accept diagnosis and responsibility for their own behaviour. It means changing

your expectations, adjusting your needs and getting some of them met through

other means where appropriate. It also focussed on finding the things that you

love about your AS man, what fascinates you and the good things you appreciate

about the relationship.

In my experience with the Cassandra community, I encounter this mindset

in perhaps 10% of the women. These are usually the women who have

attended workshops or are willing to do so.

> Lump it: Staying in the relationship out of guilt, fear, children, money, the

car, the dog, the threats of suicide and many others. That would mean remaining

embittered.

This group seems to encompass the majority of the women I've

encountered. In my experience, the decision to stay is largely a

financial one. They are trapped, and don't feel that they can leave.

Most of these women have no marketable job skills, as they made the

choice many years ago that being a homemaker was a priority in their

life. I understand that some women find this role fulfilling,

however... it does place them in a very vulnerable position if at some

point they need to survive on their own.

> Also that many women sense, long before they get to recognising the terms AS,

Autism or Aspergers, that their partner isn't being like that intentionally.

But, in my own mind, that can be like living with a terribly well meaning and

accidental nuclear leakage. It damages everything around, but really doesn't

mean to, so there can't be any direct blame, but it is still deeply distressing

and upsetting. With drugs and alcohol and abusive behaviour, there is always a

choice. That person can theoretically live without those things. But you can't

surgically remove the AS from an aspie, it's not a choice, they don't choose it,

and that makes leaving really hard.

I would agree, for the most part. Although my husband never got to that

stage, unfortunately.

That being said, I do believe that most Aspies, given motivation and

hard work, can smooth off a lot of their rough edges. So in that

respect, some behaviors are a choice.

I like your reference to the " accidental nuclear leakage " . My late

husband also did not distinguish between intentional and unintentional

behavior with respect to the damage done. I'm not so hard line on that

myself, but then I wasn't the recipient of the behavior.

> Mostly women were there because they desperately wanted to stay with their

partners and make it work, somehow, and none of them were AS haters in any way

at all. They were intelligent, open minded, very capable and amazing women who

had got lost in the day to day battles that can happen in AS/NT relationships.

I'm thinking that those Cassandra women who are willing to pursue a

workshop of this type would want to stay with their partners. You're

essentially seeing only that 10% I spoke of earlier.

The majority (IMO) of Cassandra women who prefer instead to vent (often

unconstructively) about their AS partners/spouses in their online

communities are not likely to go the workshop route... not yet anyway.

They are still stuck in blame mode. In my experience, most have become

so embittered that they are no longer seeking solutions, just a divorce

and a fresh start in life.

> I hav been told Aspies don't change, but Jon wants to. And as long as he

wants to, I am going to support him. I have come away realising how well we are

doing in our efforts to make 'it' work. And I came away with the deepest

admiration for Jon and remembered that there's a lot about his aspiness that I

love and need in my life.

Good for you, Becky. I can tell you from personal experience that

Aspies can and do change. If they want to, and once they finally figure

out what needs changing. Unfortunately, I didn't figure that out until

it was too late for me to save my own marriage.

> Oh, and I asked her why there aren't comparative studies in Non AS

relationships and she explained that it would be virtually impossible to carry

out, as there was no way of knowing that the partners of the women

interviewed/surveyed were certainly not AS, without rigorous testing of the

partners, and by that time you have become too involved for it to be impartial.

Her research is by far qualitative not quantitative, which explains the

questionnaires.

Agreed. I think it's easier to understand for folks who have some

exposure to how research is conducted in the academic community.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

What is FAAAS? Been meaning to ask for a while...~ "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."--Albert Camus Sent from my VZW BlackBerrySender: aspires-relationships Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:04:53 -0800To: <aspires-relationships >ReplyTo: aspires-relationships Subject: "Cassandra and Apollo" (Maxine Aston)-Workshop feedback Hi Becky: I am so glad you had a positive experience. I have always liked Maxine and it is no big secrete I defend the concept of Cassandra. I experienced that with my own family as my ex-spouse self-diagnosed after our son was diagnosed, and my family blamed me and I had nothing to do with Larry identifying with AS. He did that all on his own. It took 10 years with autism being in the media before my mother said, “Wow, they are saying what you were saying 10 years ago. I am sorry for what we said to you”. The professionals, well …they did not have a clue of adult AS back in those days and just addressed the behaviors as domestic violence and issues ofcontrol. I just sent an invite to join ASPIRES to a partner who just came back from Maxine’s workshop. I wonder if she was at the same work shop and what her experience was? Thanks for taking the time to report back to us. Cassandra has been a trigger for many in our community for a variety of reasons. I am so happy you took the time to share your experience with us and it was a healthy and positive one. As far as Tony Attwood, he wasthe key note speaker at several FAAAS conferences and they originally coined the phrase that has changed over time. Sleep tight as you deserve it! Best to you and your family.

[Guest guest]

Becky, thanks for the report, it sounds like you had a wonderful, positive seminar. I found inspiration in your message although I don't have an Aspie spouse, I have an adult Aspie son and love him deeply and try to see that he progresses well in the world in spite of all. Your phrase " can be like living with a terribly well meaning and accidental nuclear leakage." brought a wry smile to my lips. Bob

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

Interesting that you say you are not permitted to try to connect

emotionally.

My partner will say “you will not let me be there for you”

and I respond that being there on any level is not my choice to make FOR him

but his choice to make for himself.

I would be very interested in a further description of your

perspective to help me understand this difference better.

Thanks!

Cheryl – NT

From:

aspires-relationships

[mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of BassMan_720

Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 7:33 PM

To: aspires-relationships

Subject: Re: " Cassandra and Apollo "

(Maxine Aston) -Workshop feedback

CJ

You are undoubtedly right again, I wish I had a way of growing my emotional IQ.

However, I there has been no emotional or intimate relationship since

discovering about AS. Our relationship is a purely practical one at the moment.

This is not my choice. I am not permitted to try to connect emotionally.

Steve

> > Hi CJ

> >

> > Yes, I agree that this might account for some domestic issue but

there is something else that I am missing badly. I have a great tendancy of

turning good intentions to mush even where it involves special arrangements

that require my full attention. If I were to be such a failure at work, I would

be out of a job very quickly.

> >

> > Best regards

> >

> > Steve

> >

>