Re: Hugs

[Guest guest]

As a person who generally does not react favorably to hugs, you are the perfect person to answer a question for me. Do you find cyberhugs as intolerable as actual physical hugs? Or are you able to at least appreciate the cyberhug (which involves no touching) as the symbol of support it is meant to be? ~ "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."--Albert Camus Sent from my VZW BlackBerrySender: aspires-relationships Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:59:33 +0700To: <aspires-relationships >ReplyTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Hugs Under the subject Re: Welcome, On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 at 19:53:09 +0000 (GMT) JUDY BARROW wrote:> Communicate, understand, validate, and try hugging. He may not be a> 'hug-ee' but tell him it does YOU good.I've a feeling we've discussed some aspects of this before, but I'd like to raise it again if I may.My comments relate not only to Judy's above suggestion to , but to what seems to have become quite a widespread habit on this list of adding " hugs " or " cyber-hugs " as a form of encouragement to posters, particularly NT female posters, who are perceived to be in need of support.From my own particular AS standpoint I see hugging as an act that comes much more naturally to NT females than it does to AS males. My opinion is that this is probably partly due to basic AS issues, and partly due to sensory issues that often accompany AS. Not all Aspies are affected the same way, by any means, but there are certainly some of us who react unfavourably to unsolicited hugs and to requests to give hugs.In my own case, sadly you may say, there's no-one in my life at the moment who I'd feel comfortable hugging with. It hasn't always been like that with me; there have been just a few people and a few brief times in my life when hugs have felt great, and I very much hope there will be more, but to me, hugs are quite a deep expression of understanding and sympathy, and this isn't something that comes spontaneously.So my point is that in mixed AS/NT environments, which I believe is what Aspires is all about, there's a need for an element of understanding and caution that hugs may sometimes be more divisive than binding. I know of other Aspies, like myself, who if forced at the wrong time into an unwanted hug, simply cringe until it's over.I don't want to belittle the power and therapeutic value of hugs to both participants given the right environment, but I think it would be a mistake to assume they are always universally beneficial.(dx'd 3 years ago at age 67)

[Guest guest]

Eyre wrote:

> Another angle to it that affects me is that I tend to take hugs too

> seriously. When I see how other people can participate and enjoy casual

> hugs on the spur of the moment, I feel sad and deprived that I can't do

> the same.

Great insight, . I've noticed that a lot of people (not only

Aspies) are averse to all sorts of things for similar reasons.

It's not the thing itself that is necessarily the problem, but their

inability to participate (for whatever reason). Often the greater the

longing, the more intense the aversion.

Best,

~CJ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

" We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we

created them. " ~~ Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

Thanks for your reply.

No, personally I don't find any kind of hugs, neither physical nor

cyber, " intolerable " as such. Mostly they are something I just feel I

have to " suffer " from time to time in order to avoid offending the

huggers. For some Aspies I know it's a sensory thing, but that's not

the case with me. In my case it feels more like an unsolicited

intrusion into my privacy that I'm not ready for because we haven't gone

through the foreplay stage and got our minds in tune.

OK, I know hugs aren't in the same category as sex, but there are

parallels nevertheless. They (it) only feels good if we've previously

got ourselves on the same wavelength, and if only one partner out of

the two is craving the hug (or the sex), that's a sure sign that we're

not exactly in tune on the same wavelength.

A good two-way heartfelt hug could come naturally after we'd just

achieved something together or we'd come to a significant joint

agreement, so for me it's something that needs to be worked up to

jointly; not a tool for one partner to lift the other out of the doldrums.

Another angle to it that affects me is that I tend to take hugs too

seriously. When I see how other people can participate and enjoy casual

hugs on the spur of the moment, I feel sad and deprived that I can't do

the same.

How about you, , and others who experience some aversion to hugs?

Is it more of a physical sensory thing for you, or a mindset problem?

-------- YOUR REPLY --------

Subject: Re: Hugs

Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:27:05 +0000

Reply-To: aspires-relationships

To: AspiresRelationships <aspires-relationships >

As a person who generally does not react favorably to hugs, you are the

perfect person to answer a question for me. Do you find cyberhugs as

intolerable as actual physical hugs? Or are you able to at least

appreciate the cyberhug (which involves no touching) as the symbol of

support it is meant to be?

~

--------

*

*Sender: * aspires-relationships

*Date: *Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:59:33 +0700

*To: *<aspires-relationships >

*ReplyTo: * aspires-relationships

*Subject: * Hugs

Under the subject Re: Welcome,

On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 at 19:53:09 +0000 (GMT) JUDY BARROW wrote:

> Communicate, understand, validate, and try hugging. He may not be a

> 'hug-ee' but tell him it does YOU good.

I've a feeling we've discussed some aspects of this before, but I'd

like to raise it again if I may.

My comments relate not only to Judy's above suggestion to , but to

what seems to have become quite a widespread habit on this list of

adding " hugs " or " cyber-hugs " as a form of encouragement to posters,

particularly NT female posters, who are perceived to be in need of support.

>From my own particular AS standpoint I see hugging as an act that

comes much more naturally to NT females than it does to AS males. My

opinion is that this is probably partly due to basic AS issues, and

partly due to sensory issues that often accompany AS. Not all Aspies are

affected the same way, by any means, but there are certainly some of us

who react unfavourably to unsolicited hugs and to requests to give hugs.

In my own case, sadly you may say, there's no-one in my life at the

moment who I'd feel comfortable hugging with. It hasn't always been like

that with me; there have been just a few people and a few brief times

in my life when hugs have felt great, and I very much hope there will

be more, but to me, hugs are quite a deep expression of understanding

and sympathy, and this isn't something that comes spontaneously.

So my point is that in mixed AS/NT environments, which I believe is

what Aspires is all about, there's a need for an element of

understanding and caution that hugs may sometimes be more divisive than

binding. I know of other Aspies, like myself, who if forced at the

wrong time into an unwanted hug, simply cringe until it's over.

I don't want to belittle the power and therapeutic value of hugs to both

participants given the right environment, but I think it would be a

mistake to assume they are always universally beneficial.

(dx'd 3 years ago at age 67)

[Guest guest]

I think you have misunderstood me. I have no aversion to hugs, as long as they aren't "funny uncle" type hugs. As a widow with no family I just suffer from a complete and total lack of hug participants. That's one of the worst things about widowhood, no one to cuddle with. So my question still stands...do those who have sensory aversion to hugs find cyberhugs as troublesome as in-person hugs? Or are you able to appreciate the cyberhugs for the sign of support they are meant to be? ~ "Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."--Albert Camus Sent from my VZW BlackBerrySender: aspires-relationships Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2012 09:18:52 +0700To: <aspires-relationships >ReplyTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Hugs Hello ,Thanks for your reply.No, personally I don't find any kind of hugs, neither physical nor cyber, " intolerable " as such. Mostly they are something I just feel I have to " suffer " from time to time in order to avoid offending the huggers. For some Aspies I know it's a sensory thing, but that's not the case with me. In my case it feels more like an unsolicited intrusion into my privacy that I'm not ready for because we haven't gone through the foreplay stage and got our minds in tune.OK, I know hugs aren't in the same category as sex, but there are parallels nevertheless. They (it) only feels good if we've previously got ourselves on the same wavelength, and if only one partner out of the two is craving the hug (or the sex), that's a sure sign that we're not exactly in tune on the same wavelength.A good two-way heartfelt hug could come naturally after we'd just achieved something together or we'd come to a significant joint agreement, so for me it's something that needs to be worked up to jointly; not a tool for one partner to lift the other out of the doldrums.Another angle to it that affects me is that I tend to take hugs too seriously. When I see how other people can participate and enjoy casual hugs on the spur of the moment, I feel sad and deprived that I can't do the same.How about you, , and others who experience some aversion to hugs? Is it more of a physical sensory thing for you, or a mindset problem?-------- YOUR REPLY --------Subject: Re: HugsDate: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 23:27:05 +0000Reply-To: aspires-relationships To: AspiresRelationships <aspires-relationships >As a person who generally does not react favorably to hugs, you are theperfect person to answer a question for me. Do you find cyberhugs asintolerable as actual physical hugs? Or are you able to at leastappreciate the cyberhug (which involves no touching) as the symbol ofsupport it is meant to be?~--------**Sender: * aspires-relationships *Date: *Wed, 04 Jan 2012 10:59:33 +0700*To: *<aspires-relationships >*ReplyTo: * aspires-relationships *Subject: * HugsUnder the subject Re: Welcome, On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 at 19:53:09 +0000 (GMT) JUDY BARROW wrote:> Communicate, understand, validate, and try hugging. He may not be a> 'hug-ee' but tell him it does YOU good.I've a feeling we've discussed some aspects of this before, but I'dlike to raise it again if I may.My comments relate not only to Judy's above suggestion to , but towhat seems to have become quite a widespread habit on this list ofadding " hugs " or " cyber-hugs " as a form of encouragement to posters,particularly NT female posters, who are perceived to be in need of support.>From my own particular AS standpoint I see hugging as an act that comes much more naturally to NT females than it does to AS males. My opinion is that this is probably partly due to basic AS issues, and partly due to sensory issues that often accompany AS. Not all Aspies are affected the same way, by any means, but there are certainly some of us who react unfavourably to unsolicited hugs and to requests to give hugs.In my own case, sadly you may say, there's no-one in my life at themoment who I'd feel comfortable hugging with. It hasn't always been likethat with me; there have been just a few people and a few brief timesin my life when hugs have felt great, and I very much hope there willbe more, but to me, hugs are quite a deep expression of understandingand sympathy, and this isn't something that comes spontaneously.So my point is that in mixed AS/NT environments, which I believe iswhat Aspires is all about, there's a need for an element ofunderstanding and caution that hugs may sometimes be more divisive thanbinding. I know of other Aspies, like myself, who if forced at thewrong time into an unwanted hug, simply cringe until it's over.I don't want to belittle the power and therapeutic value of hugs to bothparticipants given the right environment, but I think it would be amistake to assume they are always universally beneficial.(dx'd 3 years ago at age 67)

[Guest guest]

Yes, Judy, you're describing a very admirable arrangement you and Ian

have successfully managed to set up over the years. Congratulations

and great, but clearly it's taken you a lot of time and heartache to

reach this stage.

This is very different to casual quick hugs with relative strangers

though, isn't it!

Now we've got this far on the topic, may I take the opportunity to ask

(as two seperate questions) how you and how Ian react to the quite

commonplace hugging that goes on in the world out there? Suppose there

was a member of the opposite sex involved and Ian saw you or you saw Ian

hugging them? Would that cause any feelings of jealousy?

Dunno, p'raps it's this fear of causing jealousy that inhibits me and

makes me feel that hugging should be a personal and private thing.

-------- YOUR REPLY --------

Subject: Fw: Re: Hugs

Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 11:19:18 +0000 (GMT)

Reply-To: aspires-relationships

To: ASPIRES <aspires-relationships >

I know this is a well trodden path.... I noticed that when some NT

partners come onto Aspires, they often mention isolation or lack of

tactile/spontaneity as an issue. The timing is crucial, as you

rightly point out, . They have to be 'real' hugs, reciprocally

given.

Its not about enforcing hugs on people - there is surely nothing

worse than hugging some one who freezes up.

Nor is it about stilted, painting by numbers responses.Ian is

willing to hug me when he is ready to, and he offers them readily as

a solution for mutual affection, albeit in short bursts, and a

solution that he is capable of enacting. But we have negotiated this

over many years...

We aren't talking of screaming, over-effusive, octopus style

intrusions. Just a quiet squeeze as an acknowledgement of shared

intimacies.

I don't demand a hug. I once explained to Ian that a greeting, or a

gift of his acknowledging I was sharing the same space, that such a

small action was priceless to me.

Sometimes, it is I who doesn't wish to be hugged, I'm busy, have a

back ache, or am darned annoyed at Ian about something.

The aspect of our hug routine that I need to clarify is, that ii is

on the basis that hugs are 'given' by Ian, he instigates them. I

miss out, because I cant offer them when he isn't in the mood. But

he knows this, we've talked about the sensory horrors of a hug from

strangers, or even those close to you, when you cant bear the

thought of being touched.

Ian knows that I once found it both puzzling and hurtful at the

times when he told me to go away - literally - out of his space.

Even when in the same room, because he doesn't want another breather

near him at that point. I compromise here and there for his AS

involuntary responses, so our deal is, that when he wants to, he

brokers a short burst of intimacy for me, that is tolerable and

possible. Our deal is, he occasionally gives me a hug, when he feels

right.

He enjoys a hug with me now, but doesn't hug others - my sister was

an exception, when he was moved by her cancer ordeal.

Ian's hugs, therefore, are always sincerely given. He delights in my

reaction; he feels better, after a quick hug, because I do. Just as

in couples, you do little things for each other.

Until we talked about it, he didn't know that a small action could

mean so much. For all the times he passes through the house ignoring

me, immersed, or that he has not perceived my needs, this small

action has a currency. It has vastly improved the short bursts of

time we spend together during the day, for example. I don't mind so

much, being ignored, because I know at some time or other, Ian will

'factor' in some time for me. In the ways that suit him. If that is

a smile and a hug in the hallway, I feel great.

There has been much negotiation on the way. I simply mention hugs to

those - both NT and AS - who post about a lack of open affection, or

why this is important. Its one way of reaching a middle ground for

demonstrating, if you will, how easily a quick burst of affection

can pay dividends; even if it has to be asked for, even if it has to

be learned and isn't easily given at first.

As Bill said recently, the good thing about the list here, is seeing

the perspective from both sides, and the AS perspective given here

has helped Ian and myself immensely. We can talk things through

based on our renewed understanding of our different thinking.

I asked Ian about hugging, based on your reply, . I am aware

that when he and I first met, he endured my puppy dog approach. I

hugged and stroked, then, all the time. He then thought, I suppose I

have to endure this, he found it flattering to garner so much

attention. He gradually got colder towards me, thinking, I have done

enough now, she loves me, I don't have to try so hard....he didn't

know why I was upset at his distancing of himself once we began

living together.

He was certainly, then in particular, at odds with my needs. Our

jointly learning about his AS helped a great deal and we worked out

a daily life based on his 'time out' requirements, and I learned

that it wasn't personal.

Ian says he used to give me affection because it was expected of

him, so he obliged, in the same manner as 'pass the salt'. I've

written here before about how Ian used to say, every morning 'I love

you'. But he said it in a stilted way, like a chore, like brushing

his teeth every day. He agreed that he 'planned' saying the phrase,

frightened that I might go off him if he didn't say it all the time,

and he used to remind himself to say it, hence it sounding odd.

After this, we talked about displays of affection, and how we could

freely give them. He now knowsthat a show of sincere affection, to

say 'hello, I care', is important to me, but it cant be scripted.

And he realises, affectionate gestures are important to him, too. He

is a needy person. Hugs fulfil that to some extent. His early

attempts were not worth having, a quick grasp of the elbows, he

didn't mean it. I stopped 'asking' for hugs, but explained to Ian

that I did love having them from him. We've got past the awkward

stage. We hug gently, now, and say nice things to each other for a

few seconds. Its nice. Its gone from a practice to being wanted and

sincere. Ian likes them because he feels appreciated and loved, by

being the giver. Mawkish as that may sound.

He still ignores me a lot - yesterday I was in bed with flu, and the

only interaction for some hours was a ten second burst of his new

Star Trek phaser, when if I had been hugged, that would have been

better! So being pushy gets you nowhere....

That is why he offers them when he feels that he means that

sentiment. And why I feel less isolated and appreciated. Even if for

a short while :-))

Judy B, Scotland, benefiting from a little bit sharing

Sent fromJudy Barrow's iPad

[Guest guest]

Judy B,

Thanks, and I'm responding to one of yours that's a few days old

now, but I'd still like to make some comments on it.

> Thanks - and by the way, cats are the business... :-))

Good! Always nice to hear of other cat lovers!

> Hugs in our world are given sparingly, only between ourselves as

> brokered over many years.... and the freely given, bear hugs from

> complete strangers that I like, is a complete no no for Ian. The sensory

> stuff, plus the unexpected touching, goes against the grain. He will hug

> some members of my family, but only those who he feels its ok with, and

> not very often.

You know, I think there's a bit of the old Aspie black & white versus

grey scale issue coming in on hugs, too. Hugs can lead to a sexual

response and as such may engender jealousy if witnesssed by someone

else, so [black end of the scale] they're only OK in private and with

someone I know well and with whom I'm currently feeling in tune with.

OR

[grey area that's unfamiliar to Aspies] There are " hugs " and " hugs " ,

good moments and bad moments, and sexy and banal people, so there's no

simple rule about hugs. We have to make our own judgement about them

each time an occasion arises.

OR

[white end of the scale] It doesn't matter what I'm doing at the time or

what a hug does to me, I must always acquiesce to a partner's hug

request because my only care in the world is to please other people.

> He isnt jealous of my ability to garner affection in hugging, as he

> hates the thought of indiscriminate hugs. However, he is jealous of

> affection given, as he sees himself as being outside of that kind of

> attention. He feels that others get unwarranted attention without

> seeming to do anything much, yet for him, its a great effort to even get

> through the smokescreen of non-spectrum thinking, socialising, chatting etc.

Yes, but I see indiscriminate hugging as a short cut that's a kind of a

cheat. IMHO things that are valuable and worthwhile have to be

properly earned.

> In terms of attracting interest from others (and we've touched on this

> before) it does often fall to me to broker an interest - I meet someone

> and break down the barriers to social interaction, discover that the

> person is a trekker or a bookie person, mention it to Ian. He often

> hates this 'introduction' process....

Yes, I definitely relate to that scenario because I welcome someone

else doing the research and spadework for me. That kind of delegation

is all part of the art of good management, isn't it?

Just recently I put this question of making the effort to engage with

strangers, to a local NT expat friend/acquaintance who shares the same

language and cultural barriers as I do here in Thailand. I said it

feels pointless wasting time trying to engage with strangers when it's

highly unlikely we'd find we've anything in common to talk about. My

friend/acquaintance said " no, no, if you don't communicate with them,

how can you possibly know that you've nothing in common? " This guy

is just the opposite to me in that he doesn't speak the local language

at all (I only speak a very little) yet he waves and smiles and uses

sign language to try and engage with the local population all the time.

Yes, he does get waves back and does achieve a kind of shallow

rapport with some of the neighbourhood people, but nothing in any

depth, and to my mind it's very debateable whether his approach is

worth all the effort. Anyway I can definitely see some parallels

between this and your description of the way you and Ian interact.

> ....... if he [ian] needs me there to translate non-spectrum talk,

> or help him with courage to enter a crowded room,then I stick beside

> him. Its a game of chess....

Certainly sounds like a great setup he has with you there.

> Hope this helps. Your own situation, , is probably exacerbated by

> your geography?

Thanks for mentioning that. Oh yes, it certainly is, and I do

sometimes wonder about pulling out and coming back to cold weather and

noise and smoke and busy judgemental neighbours in the western world,

but it would mean leaving my Thai wife and all the money she owes me,

and having to start answering to the tax man again, There are so many

pro's and con's to it all that I find it difficult to come to any

conclusion, especially as there's no-one I can confide with in detail

about it all. How would a 70yr old who's never been strong at mixing

and making new friends make a new purposeful life for himself in another

country if he uprooted like that?

> Cats never let you down, do they?

No they're always there for us. Why can't people be like that? and

why can't I be like that with other people?

Anyway, for those of you still there, thanks for listening!

[Guest guest]

E,

Thanks for your, as usual, erudite reply.

 

I have a friend in Bangkok who works as an artist, and she has solved the

problem of missing England by joining a network of English speakers in

Thailand and uses Facebook to converse, and occasionally, meet. I guess that

would make you shudder! But would that help, maintain a conversation now and

again?  I avoided Facebook like the plague but now use it for both my work, and

banter with old and new people. When I feel like I have no one to speak to, I

post the odd story out there, and enjoy the debate that ensues.

 

ASPIRES isnt all about much needed outpourings or sudden crises, it's also for

maintaining contact with like-minded folk.

 

Your posts are always thought-provoking and you have much to say, could it be

that you find it useful to post occasionally on a forum (if you havent already)

for ex pats like you

http://www.expatforum.com/

This, might, of course, make you run for the hills. Some forum chit chat ('I am

bored today') might just turn you off.

I guess it comes down to the need for friendship and what that may mean.

Keep in touch with your friends here. What with all our geographical

differences, there will always be someone around.

Judy B, Scotland - wishing she was somewhere hot

 

 

 

 

 

> Thanks - and by the way, cats are the business... :-))

Good! Always nice to hear of other cat lovers!

> Hugs in our world are given sparingly, only between ourselves as

> brokered over many years.... and the freely given, bear hugs from

> complete strangers that I like, is a complete no no for Ian. The sensory

> stuff, plus the unexpected touching, goes against the grain. He will hug

> some members of my family, but only those who he feels its ok with, and

> not very often.

You know, I think there's a bit of the old Aspie black & white versus

grey scale issue coming in on hugs, too. Hugs can lead to a sexual

response and as such may engender jealousy if witnesssed by

someone

else, so [black end of the scale] they're only OK in private and with

someone I know well and with whom I'm currently feeling in tune with.

OR

[grey area that's unfamiliar to Aspies] There are " hugs " and " hugs " ,

good moments and bad moments, and sexy and banal people, so there's no

simple rule about hugs. We have to make our own judgement about them

each time an occasion arises.

OR

[white end of the scale] It doesn't matter what I'm doing at the time or

what a hug does to me, I must always acquiesce to a partner's hug

request because my only care in the world is to please other people.

> He isnt jealous of my ability to garner affection in hugging, as he

> hates the thought of indiscriminate hugs. However, he is jealous of

> affection given, as he sees himself as being outside of that kind of

> attention. He feels that others get unwarranted attention without

> seeming to

do anything much, yet for him, its a great effort to even get

> through the smokescreen of non-spectrum thinking, socialising, chatting etc.

Yes, but I see indiscriminate hugging as a short cut that's a kind of a

cheat. IMHO things that are valuable and worthwhile have to be

properly earned.

> In terms of attracting interest from others (and we've touched on this

> before) it does often fall to me to broker an interest - I meet someone

> and break down the barriers to social interaction, discover that the

> person is a trekker or a bookie person, mention it to Ian. He often

> hates this 'introduction' process....

Yes, I definitely relate to that scenario because I welcome someone

else doing the research and spadework for me. That kind of delegation

is all part of the art of good management, isn't it?

Just recently I put this question of making the effort to engage with

strangers, to a local NT expat friend/acquaintance who shares the same

language and cultural barriers as I do here in Thailand. I said it

feels pointless wasting time trying to engage with strangers when it's

highly unlikely we'd find we've anything in common to talk about. My

friend/acquaintance said " no, no, if you don't communicate with them,

how can you possibly know that you've nothing in common? " This guy

is just the opposite to me in that he doesn't speak the local language

at all (I only speak a very little) yet he waves and smiles and uses

sign language to try and engage with the local population all the time.

Yes, he does get waves back and does achieve a kind of shallow

rapport with some of the neighbourhood people, but nothing in any

depth, and to my mind it's very debateable whether his approach is

worth all the effort. Anyway I can definitely see some parallels

between this and your

description of the way you and Ian interact.

> ....... if he [ian] needs me there to translate non-spectrum talk,

> or help him with courage to enter a crowded room,then I stick beside

> him. Its a game of chess....

Certainly sounds like a great setup he has with you there.

> Hope this helps. Your own situation, , is probably exacerbated by

> your geography?

Thanks for mentioning that. Oh yes, it certainly is, and I do

sometimes wonder about pulling out and coming back to cold weather and

noise and smoke and busy judgemental neighbours in the western world,

but it would mean leaving my Thai wife and all the money she owes me,

and having to start answering to the tax man again, There are so many

pro's and con's to it all that I find it difficult to come to any

conclusion, especially as there's no-one I can confide with in detail

about it all. How would a 70yr old who's

never been strong at mixing

and making new friends make a new purposeful life for himself in another

country if he uprooted like that?

> Cats never let you down, do they?

No they're always there for us. Why can't people be like that? and

why can't I be like that with other people?

Anyway, for those of you still there, thanks for listening!