Re: Using fans while air sampling

[Guest guest]

Cassie,

Sampling in quiet air is acceptable but so is sampling with

disturbed air. Each gives you different results so which of the two

is most appropriate depends on what you are trying to find, the

other conditions of the environment and samples other than air

samples (surfaces in quiet air). This is another way of saying you

cannot rely on sampling alone to answer the questions you have.

I'd also want to know what she means by saying the HVAC is fine

because the filter stops the spores. To me this also means the

HVAC ducting is very clean and the HVAC air movement is the

only way spores can move out of the two rooms. More

information is needed before I could evaluate her conclusion.

That said, the information so far seems to support a source of

mold spores in the two rooms, including that the HVAC filter is

effective and the ducts are clean. My reasoning is the relatively

uniform air movement throughout the house from the HVAC fan

running should distribute spores throughout the house. If there

are locations of mold growth actively sporulating in the two rooms

then the counts should be higher in those two rooms and less in

the others.

What is bothering me, however, is that the rest of the house is

" fine. " I don't know what " fine " means. Does it mean significantly

below the two problem rooms or zero spores? Or that you won't

react in the rest of the house? Also, despite what I said above, I'd

still expect spores from the two problem rooms to be distributed

to other locations by air movement other than by the HVAC.

Nothing stays in one spot unless confined or contained.

As to your last question of " Get a second opinion, or should we

just go with the testing she did? " it can't be answered by her

testing or more testing by anyone. The answer needs more

information that has nothing to do with testing. Why is there

higher mold in the two rooms? What is the source of the

moisture? How can it be stopped? Is there water damaged

materials to be removed and replaced? How old is the water

damage? And a baker's dozen more questions.

Finally, we don't yet know her protocol. Many write acceptable,

even great, protocols despite the errors and deficiencies of mold

spore sampling. Which is further evidence that mold sampling is

more often a sales tool than it is a diagnostic one.

Was she hired by you or someone else? Do you own or rent? I'd

suggest you see what her protocol says.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> We hired a hygienist who came out last Thursday and did air sampling

> and was suppossed to make a protocol. She did the air sampling in all

> of the rooms without air movement and we hadn't been in the house for a

> week because we are living elsewhere. The results came back with high

> fungal counts in two different rooms but that that HVAC and the rest of

> the house was fine. Even though the hvac was running when they were

> doing the mold demo, she told us that the filter in the system (which

> isn't hepa) catches the spores because they are fairly large. We are

> talking stachy and chaetomium. Should we hire a different hygienist?

> Get a second opinion, or should we just go with the testing she did?

>

> Cassie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl-

The two rooms with the highest fungal counts are the master bed and

bathroom. The leak is in the master bathroom shower and has been

ongoing for a year. The builder has tried to fix it 5 times and has

been unsucc. thus leading to the mold.

The hygienist that came out was hired by the builder and refuses to

give me the results or protocol for my house. She says since the

builder is the one paying she is the one who will get the results.

The builder is stating they don't have " clearance " to give me the

results, so they are just giving me little bits and pices from her

assessment hence the words " fine " . I told them no remediationwork

will start on my house until I see copies of those.

She didn't use fans while air sampling which bothered me. I want to

know if there is stachy and chaetomium in the carpet, I want to know

what we are breathing when we play hide and seek and chase in the

house, when we stir things up a bit. It is obvious to me that the

hygienist is biased towards the builder. That is why we are

considering a 2nd opinion, we don't really have the money for it, or

for an attorney. I wish the builder would just give us another house.

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> Cassie,

>

> Sampling in quiet air is acceptable but so is sampling with

> disturbed air. Each gives you different results so which of the two

> is most appropriate depends on what you are trying to find, the

> other conditions of the environment and samples other than air

> samples (surfaces in quiet air). This is another way of saying you

> cannot rely on sampling alone to answer the questions you have.

>

> I'd also want to know what she means by saying the HVAC is fine

> because the filter stops the spores. To me this also means the

> HVAC ducting is very clean and the HVAC air movement is the

> only way spores can move out of the two rooms. More

> information is needed before I could evaluate her conclusion.

>

> That said, the information so far seems to support a source of

> mold spores in the two rooms, including that the HVAC filter is

> effective and the ducts are clean. My reasoning is the relatively

> uniform air movement throughout the house from the HVAC fan

> running should distribute spores throughout the house. If there

> are locations of mold growth actively sporulating in the two rooms

> then the counts should be higher in those two rooms and less in

> the others.

>

> What is bothering me, however, is that the rest of the house is

> " fine. " I don't know what " fine " means. Does it mean significantly

> below the two problem rooms or zero spores? Or that you won't

> react in the rest of the house? Also, despite what I said above,

I'd

> still expect spores from the two problem rooms to be distributed

> to other locations by air movement other than by the HVAC.

> Nothing stays in one spot unless confined or contained.

>

> As to your last question of " Get a second opinion, or should we

> just go with the testing she did? " it can't be answered by her

> testing or more testing by anyone. The answer needs more

> information that has nothing to do with testing. Why is there

> higher mold in the two rooms? What is the source of the

> moisture? How can it be stopped? Is there water damaged

> materials to be removed and replaced? How old is the water

> damage? And a baker's dozen more questions.

>

> Finally, we don't yet know her protocol. Many write acceptable,

> even great, protocols despite the errors and deficiencies of mold

> spore sampling. Which is further evidence that mold sampling is

> more often a sales tool than it is a diagnostic one.

>

> Was she hired by you or someone else? Do you own or rent? I'd

> suggest you see what her protocol says.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> > We hired a hygienist who came out last Thursday and did air

sampling

> > and was suppossed to make a protocol. She did the air sampling

in all

> > of the rooms without air movement and we hadn't been in the house

for a

> > week because we are living elsewhere. The results came back with

high

> > fungal counts in two different rooms but that that HVAC and the

rest of

> > the house was fine. Even though the hvac was running when they

were

> > doing the mold demo, she told us that the filter in the system

(which

> > isn't hepa) catches the spores because they are fairly large. We

are

> > talking stachy and chaetomium. Should we hire a different

hygienist?

> > Get a second opinion, or should we just go with the testing she

did?

> >

> > Cassie

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Cassie,

Way to stand your ground! " I told them no remediationwork

will start on my house until I see copies of those. " You also seem

to have a clear understanding of what is going on.

Your main problem is actualy legal: How to compel the builder to

return the house to its original habitability. He is acting on your

complaint, not that of the hygienist or of the building, but his

actions aren't related to you. Only to some measurment of the

house. It is your complaint that must be satisfied.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl-

> The two rooms with the highest fungal counts are the master bed and

> bathroom. The leak is in the master bathroom shower and has been

> ongoing for a year. The builder has tried to fix it 5 times and has

> been unsucc. thus leading to the mold.

> The hygienist that came out was hired by the builder and refuses to

> give me the results or protocol for my house. She says since the

> builder is the one paying she is the one who will get the results.

> The builder is stating they don't have " clearance " to give me the

> results, so they are just giving me little bits and pices from her

> assessment hence the words " fine " . I told them no remediationwork

> will start on my house until I see copies of those.

>

> She didn't use fans while air sampling which bothered me. I want to

> know if there is stachy and chaetomium in the carpet, I want to know

> what we are breathing when we play hide and seek and chase in the

> house, when we stir things up a bit. It is obvious to me that the

> hygienist is biased towards the builder. That is why we are

> considering a 2nd opinion, we don't really have the money for it, or

> for an attorney. I wish the builder would just give us another house.

>

>

> >

> > Cassie,

> >

> > Sampling in quiet air is acceptable but so is sampling with

> > disturbed air. Each gives you different results so which of the two

> > is most appropriate depends on what you are trying to find, the

> > other conditions of the environment and samples other than air

> > samples (surfaces in quiet air). This is another way of saying you

> > cannot rely on sampling alone to answer the questions you have.

> >

> > I'd also want to know what she means by saying the HVAC is fine

> > because the filter stops the spores. To me this also means the

> > HVAC ducting is very clean and the HVAC air movement is the

> > only way spores can move out of the two rooms. More

> > information is needed before I could evaluate her conclusion.

> >

> > That said, the information so far seems to support a source of

> > mold spores in the two rooms, including that the HVAC filter is

> > effective and the ducts are clean. My reasoning is the relatively

> > uniform air movement throughout the house from the HVAC fan

> > running should distribute spores throughout the house. If there

> > are locations of mold growth actively sporulating in the two rooms

> > then the counts should be higher in those two rooms and less in

> > the others.

> >

> > What is bothering me, however, is that the rest of the house is

> > " fine. " I don't know what " fine " means. Does it mean significantly

> > below the two problem rooms or zero spores? Or that you won't

> > react in the rest of the house? Also, despite what I said above,

> I'd

> > still expect spores from the two problem rooms to be distributed

> > to other locations by air movement other than by the HVAC.

> > Nothing stays in one spot unless confined or contained.

> >

> > As to your last question of " Get a second opinion, or should we

> > just go with the testing she did? " it can't be answered by her

> > testing or more testing by anyone. The answer needs more

> > information that has nothing to do with testing. Why is there

> > higher mold in the two rooms? What is the source of the

> > moisture? How can it be stopped? Is there water damaged

> > materials to be removed and replaced? How old is the water

> > damage? And a baker's dozen more questions.

> >

> > Finally, we don't yet know her protocol. Many write acceptable,

> > even great, protocols despite the errors and deficiencies of mold

> > spore sampling. Which is further evidence that mold sampling is

> > more often a sales tool than it is a diagnostic one.

> >

> > Was she hired by you or someone else? Do you own or rent? I'd

> > suggest you see what her protocol says.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> > -----

> > > We hired a hygienist who came out last Thursday and did air

> sampling

> > > and was suppossed to make a protocol. She did the air sampling

> in all

> > > of the rooms without air movement and we hadn't been in the house

> for a

> > > week because we are living elsewhere. The results came back with

> high

> > > fungal counts in two different rooms but that that HVAC and the

> rest of

> > > the house was fine. Even though the hvac was running when they

> were

> > > doing the mold demo, she told us that the filter in the system

> (which

> > > isn't hepa) catches the spores because they are fairly large. We

> are

> > > talking stachy and chaetomium. Should we hire a different

> hygienist?

> > > Get a second opinion, or should we just go with the testing she

> did?

> > >

> > > Cassie

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Cassie.

If you have found stachy in the past, DO NOT TAKE RESULTS OF AIR

SAMPLING AS AUTHORITATIVE IN ANY RESPECT!

Stachy doesn't show up on spore tests!

You need to look inside of the walls where the mold is typically

found. Do a visual inspection. If you do air sampling, do it with

strong negative pressure (fans on windows blowing out, so gunk inside

of the walls is sucked in)

Its been shown that false negatives are the rule rather than the

exception with stachybotrys - spore trap sampling is a sample of a

moment in time that is likely to be thr wrong moment.

You need a combination of methods and physical locations.

With stachy THERE ISN'T REALLY THAT GOOD METHOD WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE.

Would you entrust your health to one or two $75 spore trap tests that

are almost positive to never show spores except if they are taken at

the exact moment when that particular piece of mold that a found spore

comes from is dying?

This is a ***major*** problem!

Also, the whole rationale to test for spores is flawed in that spores

are just part of the mold, and they are not the only part that causes

health issues.

Most of the problems caused by stachy are caused by tiny fungal

fragments, much smaller than spores..

They are the part of the mold that goes deeply into the lungs!

Read this paper.. note that 99% of the mold spores cling tightly to

the conidiaphores even long after the mold is dead. They remain inside

of the walls, and they gradually leach toxic particles into the

environment. Thats what makes people sick. Spores are in a way,

basically, a diversion.

That said, fans CAN help show if there are still any mold mats inside

of the walls or floors that may have been missed in an incomplete

remediation.

This is what I would say would reveal the most in that situation. Ive

never done this myself, as it would be dangerous for me in a bad

situation.

Put on good PPE, (N100 mask THAT SEALS WELL, eye protection, etc.) Put

strong fans on the windows blowing OUT, hard, seal around their edges,

you should have negative pressure inside the house,

You may suddenly smell lots of mold.

THEN sample!

Fungal Genet Biol. 2007 Jul;44(7):641-7. Epub 2006 Dec 24.Click here

to read Links

Biomechanics of conidial dispersal in the toxic mold Stachybotrys chartarum.

Tucker K, Stolze JL, Kennedy AH, Money NP.

Department of Botany, Miami University, Oxford, OH 45056, USA.

Conidial dispersal in Stachybotrys chartarum in response to

low-velocity airflow was studied using a microflow apparatus. The

maximum rate of spore release occurred during the first 5 min of

airflow, followed by a dramatic reduction in dispersal that left more

than 99% of the conidia attached to their conidiophores.

Micromanipulation of undisturbed colonies showed that micronewton

(microN) forces were needed to dislodge spore clusters from their

supporting conidiophores. Calculations show that airspeeds that

normally prevail in the indoor environment disturb colonies with

forces that are 1000-fold lower, in the nanonewton (nN) range.

Low-velocity airflow does not, therefore, cause sufficient disturbance

to disperse a large proportion of the conidia of S. chartarum.

PMID: 17267247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...> wrote:

> Cassie,

>

> Sampling in quiet air is acceptable but so is sampling with

> disturbed air. Each gives you different results so which of the two

> is most appropriate depends on what you are trying to find, the

> other conditions of the environment and samples other than air

> samples (surfaces in quiet air). This is another way of saying you

> cannot rely on sampling alone to answer the questions you have.

>

> I'd also want to know what she means by saying the HVAC is fine

> because the filter stops the spores. To me this also means the

> HVAC ducting is very clean and the HVAC air movement is the

> only way spores can move out of the two rooms. More

> information is needed before I could evaluate her conclusion.

>

> That said, the information so far seems to support a source of

> mold spores in the two rooms, including that the HVAC filter is

> effective and the ducts are clean. My reasoning is the relatively

> uniform air movement throughout the house from the HVAC fan

> running should distribute spores throughout the house. If there

> are locations of mold growth actively sporulating in the two rooms

> then the counts should be higher in those two rooms and less in

> the others.

>

> What is bothering me, however, is that the rest of the house is

> " fine. " I don't know what " fine " means. Does it mean significantly

> below the two problem rooms or zero spores? Or that you won't

> react in the rest of the house? Also, despite what I said above, I'd

> still expect spores from the two problem rooms to be distributed

> to other locations by air movement other than by the HVAC.

> Nothing stays in one spot unless confined or contained.

>

> As to your last question of " Get a second opinion, or should we

> just go with the testing she did? " it can't be answered by her

> testing or more testing by anyone. The answer needs more

> information that has nothing to do with testing. Why is there

> higher mold in the two rooms? What is the source of the

> moisture? How can it be stopped? Is there water damaged

> materials to be removed and replaced? How old is the water

> damage? And a baker's dozen more questions.

>

> Finally, we don't yet know her protocol. Many write acceptable,

> even great, protocols despite the errors and deficiencies of mold

> spore sampling. Which is further evidence that mold sampling is

> more often a sales tool than it is a diagnostic one.

>

> Was she hired by you or someone else? Do you own or rent? I'd

> suggest you see what her protocol says.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl-

We went ahead and hired an attorney today. He seems to think he can

get around our manditory binding arbitration clause, but if he can't

he still thinks we will win in arbitration. We had to pay him a $3k

retainer and at $300 an hour it is going to go fast. Hopefully our

builder will want to settle out of court. If not we will take it all

the way. I am done living in this house, everytime I am here I get

burning in my lungs and shortness of breath.

The monkey wrench in our case will be if the builder files

bankruptcy. In this market builders are going under by the day.

Hopefully even if they go under their insurance will still pay.

Do you think we have a chance or we are just wasting our money?

> > >

> > > Cassie,

> > >

> > > Sampling in quiet air is acceptable but so is sampling with

> > > disturbed air. Each gives you different results so which of the

two

> > > is most appropriate depends on what you are trying to find, the

> > > other conditions of the environment and samples other than air

> > > samples (surfaces in quiet air). This is another way of saying

you

> > > cannot rely on sampling alone to answer the questions you have.

> > >

> > > I'd also want to know what she means by saying the HVAC is fine

> > > because the filter stops the spores. To me this also means the

> > > HVAC ducting is very clean and the HVAC air movement is the

> > > only way spores can move out of the two rooms. More

> > > information is needed before I could evaluate her conclusion.

> > >

> > > That said, the information so far seems to support a source of

> > > mold spores in the two rooms, including that the HVAC filter is

> > > effective and the ducts are clean. My reasoning is the

relatively

> > > uniform air movement throughout the house from the HVAC fan

> > > running should distribute spores throughout the house. If there

> > > are locations of mold growth actively sporulating in the two

rooms

> > > then the counts should be higher in those two rooms and less in

> > > the others.

> > >

> > > What is bothering me, however, is that the rest of the house is

> > > " fine. " I don't know what " fine " means. Does it mean

significantly

> > > below the two problem rooms or zero spores? Or that you won't

> > > react in the rest of the house? Also, despite what I said

above,

> > I'd

> > > still expect spores from the two problem rooms to be

distributed

> > > to other locations by air movement other than by the HVAC.

> > > Nothing stays in one spot unless confined or contained.

> > >

> > > As to your last question of " Get a second opinion, or should we

> > > just go with the testing she did? " it can't be answered by her

> > > testing or more testing by anyone. The answer needs more

> > > information that has nothing to do with testing. Why is there

> > > higher mold in the two rooms? What is the source of the

> > > moisture? How can it be stopped? Is there water damaged

> > > materials to be removed and replaced? How old is the water

> > > damage? And a baker's dozen more questions.

> > >

> > > Finally, we don't yet know her protocol. Many write acceptable,

> > > even great, protocols despite the errors and deficiencies of

mold

> > > spore sampling. Which is further evidence that mold sampling is

> > > more often a sales tool than it is a diagnostic one.

> > >

> > > Was she hired by you or someone else? Do you own or rent? I'd

> > > suggest you see what her protocol says.

> > >

> > > Carl Grimes

> > > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > >

> > > -----

> > > > We hired a hygienist who came out last Thursday and did air

> > sampling

> > > > and was suppossed to make a protocol. She did the air

sampling

> > in all

> > > > of the rooms without air movement and we hadn't been in the

house

> > for a

> > > > week because we are living elsewhere. The results came back

with

> > high

> > > > fungal counts in two different rooms but that that HVAC and

the

> > rest of

> > > > the house was fine. Even though the hvac was running when

they

> > were

> > > > doing the mold demo, she told us that the filter in the

system

> > (which

> > > > isn't hepa) catches the spores because they are fairly

large. We

> > are

> > > > talking stachy and chaetomium. Should we hire a different

> > hygienist?

> > > > Get a second opinion, or should we just go with the testing

she

> > did?

> > > >

> > > > Cassie

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Cassie,

I'm glad to see you taking care of yourself by getting the type of

help appropriate to the situation. It won't be easy as many on this

list will attest. But sometimes that's the hand dealt us. Best of

luck and keep us posted.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> Carl-

> We went ahead and hired an attorney today. He seems to think he can

> get around our manditory binding arbitration clause, but if he can't

> he still thinks we will win in arbitration. We had to pay him a $3k

> retainer and at $300 an hour it is going to go fast. Hopefully our

> builder will want to settle out of court. If not we will take it all

> the way. I am done living in this house, everytime I am here I get

> burning in my lungs and shortness of breath.

>

> The monkey wrench in our case will be if the builder files

> bankruptcy. In this market builders are going under by the day.

> Hopefully even if they go under their insurance will still pay.

>

> Do you think we have a chance or we are just wasting our money?

>

> > > >

> > > > Cassie,

> > > >

> > > > Sampling in quiet air is acceptable but so is sampling with

> > > > disturbed air. Each gives you different results so which of the

> two

> > > > is most appropriate depends on what you are trying to find, the

> > > > other conditions of the environment and samples other than air

> > > > samples (surfaces in quiet air). This is another way of saying

> you

> > > > cannot rely on sampling alone to answer the questions you have.

> > > >

> > > > I'd also want to know what she means by saying the HVAC is fine

> > > > because the filter stops the spores. To me this also means the

> > > > HVAC ducting is very clean and the HVAC air movement is the

> > > > only way spores can move out of the two rooms. More

> > > > information is needed before I could evaluate her conclusion.

> > > >

> > > > That said, the information so far seems to support a source of

> > > > mold spores in the two rooms, including that the HVAC filter is

> > > > effective and the ducts are clean. My reasoning is the

> relatively

> > > > uniform air movement throughout the house from the HVAC fan

> > > > running should distribute spores throughout the house. If there

> > > > are locations of mold growth actively sporulating in the two

> rooms

> > > > then the counts should be higher in those two rooms and less in

> > > > the others.

> > > >

> > > > What is bothering me, however, is that the rest of the house is

> > > > " fine. " I don't know what " fine " means. Does it mean

> significantly

> > > > below the two problem rooms or zero spores? Or that you won't

> > > > react in the rest of the house? Also, despite what I said

> above,

> > > I'd

> > > > still expect spores from the two problem rooms to be

> distributed

> > > > to other locations by air movement other than by the HVAC.

> > > > Nothing stays in one spot unless confined or contained.

> > > >

> > > > As to your last question of " Get a second opinion, or should we

> > > > just go with the testing she did? " it can't be answered by her

> > > > testing or more testing by anyone. The answer needs more

> > > > information that has nothing to do with testing. Why is there

> > > > higher mold in the two rooms? What is the source of the

> > > > moisture? How can it be stopped? Is there water damaged

> > > > materials to be removed and replaced? How old is the water

> > > > damage? And a baker's dozen more questions.

> > > >

> > > > Finally, we don't yet know her protocol. Many write acceptable,

> > > > even great, protocols despite the errors and deficiencies of

> mold

> > > > spore sampling. Which is further evidence that mold sampling is

> > > > more often a sales tool than it is a diagnostic one.

> > > >

> > > > Was she hired by you or someone else? Do you own or rent? I'd

> > > > suggest you see what her protocol says.

> > > >

> > > > Carl Grimes

> > > > Healthy Habitats LLC

> > > >

> > > > -----

> > > > > We hired a hygienist who came out last Thursday and did air

> > > sampling

> > > > > and was suppossed to make a protocol. She did the air

> sampling

> > > in all

> > > > > of the rooms without air movement and we hadn't been in the

> house

> > > for a

> > > > > week because we are living elsewhere. The results came back

> with

> > > high

> > > > > fungal counts in two different rooms but that that HVAC and

> the

> > > rest of

> > > > > the house was fine. Even though the hvac was running when

> they

> > > were

> > > > > doing the mold demo, she told us that the filter in the

> system

> > > (which

> > > > > isn't hepa) catches the spores because they are fairly

> large. We

> > > are

> > > > > talking stachy and chaetomium. Should we hire a different

> > > hygienist?

> > > > > Get a second opinion, or should we just go with the testing

> she

> > > did?

> > > > >

> > > > > Cassie

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >