Candida

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I don't know anything about Nizoral, but some of these candida drugs, like

Diflucan, are pretty toxic stuff and the candida often comes back. Whether

or not you choose to take the Nizoral, there are other long-term approaches

that can be used to control candida. I believe Nilstat is a gentler drug to

kick off the process.

Candida feeds on sugar, so first thing is to cut sugary foods out of your

diet and to make sure you're drinking lots of water. There's a herbal

product called Candida Plus which does a good job, but it's expensive.

Other things to control candida include garlic, olive leaf extract,

grapefruit seed extract, lapacho or pau d'arco. Also take tons of

acidophilus products - you can take the tablets and also eat yoghourt with

the live cultures. The increased acidophilus restores the balance of gut

flora and reduces the candida.

It can take a long time to get rid of candida,

Chris.

I recently had lab done and, as if collecting the fecal samples were not

enough for one person to go through, I have a bad, very bad candidas

problem. My doctor has prescribed Nizoral for me but I've just read

(DR. Weil) that Nizoral is bad for the liver. Anyone taken this drug?

Any problems?

[Guest guest]

,

also told me about trying olive leaf for the yeast along with

slippery elm to heal a leaky gut. I've been taking it for 2 or 3 weeks and

my stomach problems are MUCH better so I do think this helps. You also

really need to avoid sugar. I wish you luck, I know how lousy this can

make you feel.

a

rheumatic Re: Candida

From: cadlard@...

Dear ,

I don't know anything about Nizoral, but some of these candida drugs, like

Diflucan, are pretty toxic stuff and the candida often comes back. Whether

or not you choose to take the Nizoral, there are other long-term approaches

that can be used to control candida. I believe Nilstat is a gentler drug to

kick off the process.

Candida feeds on sugar, so first thing is to cut sugary foods out of your

diet and to make sure you're drinking lots of water. There's a herbal

product called Candida Plus which does a good job, but it's expensive.

Other things to control candida include garlic, olive leaf extract,

grapefruit seed extract, lapacho or pau d'arco. Also take tons of

acidophilus products - you can take the tablets and also eat yoghourt with

the live cultures. The increased acidophilus restores the balance of gut

flora and reduces the candida.

It can take a long time to get rid of candida,

Chris.

I recently had lab done and, as if collecting the fecal samples were not

enough for one person to go through, I have a bad, very bad candidas

problem. My doctor has prescribed Nizoral for me but I've just read

(DR. Weil) that Nizoral is bad for the liver. Anyone taken this drug?

Any problems?

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[Guest guest]

I would suggest the candida albicans antibodies, antigen and immune

complex test. This is a blood test.

There are a number of labs that perform such a test. Here are two.

Immunosciences Lab, Inc. = Beverly Hills, Ca.

Phone 310-657-1077

FAX 310-657-1053

Antibody Assay Laboratories - Santa Ana, CA

Phone 714-972-9979

Great Smokes Lab does the stool culture, but this will not 'catch'

systemic candida.

Ethel

> Jon Schniers wrote:

>

> Hi who can recommend a reliable test for candida?

[Guest guest]

On 8/25/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>

> You said you have trouble digesting carbs in general. I just wanted to let

> you know that candida messes up carb digestion, in case you weren't already

> aware of it. Do you happen to know if you have Candida?

Hi Suze,

I did some thinking and poking around, and I think it's highly likely.

I found this site particularly useful:

http://www.cfs-recovery.org/docdarren2.html#symptoms

I don't have " feminine itch " (haha), but I would say I have a bit of

the male version-- I'm somewhat prone to itching in general, although

this is more true in that area than anywhere else, and during specific

times have also encountered a bad anal itch, although this is

uncommon. I had technical problems with the shower recently, and a

day or two without washing will produce redness and milk inflammation

in that area, which I think also indicates candida.

Eczema, which, as you know, I've had very bad cases of (which

responded to Primal Defense, which is anti-candida, and butter oil,

which is healthy for the gut), plus I have what appears to be

psoriasis on my scalp, which started possibly in response to a hair

gel, at least that's when I started noticing it. If I separate my

hair I can see that my scalp is red, but in any case it produce very

big scales that are like dandruff, but are like huge, flat pieces of

it. At its worst points (when I was getting sugar and OJ cravings),

it was pussing and occasionally bleeding.

I also have toe fungus, which I think was a response to the influence

of 10 hours of workboot-wearing per day at the concrete job, which

decreased 80% during the VCO fast (which is supposed to be very

anti-fungal), but has remained stagnant since. Toe fungus apparently

indicates systemic fungus.

I of course have and have always had poor digestion and gas.

Before the VCO fast, I was drinking lots of OJ and craving it. The

more such sugary foods I would eat, the more I would crave them.

Months earlier, I don't know why I was stupid enough to drink

weight-gaining drinks when I was in a jam for a post-workout snack

that provided 1100 calories of maltodextrin and some high fructose

corn syrup, but that probably induced the sugar cravings. The VCO

fast eliminated my sugar cravings, caused my psoriasis to get better,

etc, but didn't *eliminate* many of my symptoms.

A lot of the things I have like allergies, unexplainable fatigue,

proneness to conjunctivitis, itchy eyes, etc, are all things that I

tend to experience or have experienced for periods in the past. A

couple times I have had unexplainable burning during urination, but it

only lasted a day or so and went away, so I never followed up. I

could say the same for blood in my stools.

Here's an interesting datum: I was told a few years ago, as it just,

oddly, happened to come up in conversation, that urinating in

different directions is a sign of prostate cancer, or something like

that. As far as I can remember, I have always had an issue of my

urine being, at its worst, in different directions, but more commonly

being spread out so it was at different directions but close enough

that it all made it in the toilet. :-P Since this seems to increase

when there is... umm, sticky stuff stuck in the urethra, I'm guessing

this, as a general chronic problem, could indicate a fungal invasion

of the urethra?

Before this recent fast, I've always had an issue with whiteness on my

tongue. The whiteness on my tongue during the fast was dramatic,

thick, and covered my whole tongue. But since I started eating (with

lots of HCl and enzymes), my tongue has been squeaky clean like I

can't even remember it being. But I still have psoriasis on my scalp,

a little eczema that comes and goes, remnants of toe fungus,

itchiness, itchy eyes and allergies, etc.

So that does seem to indicate candida, doesn't it?

According to the link above, probiotics will NOT be effective in

killing candida, because they can only colonize once the candida is

removed. It also says that non-pharmaceutical anti-fungals are too

weak to be effective. They argue that an effective treatment involves

a combination of low-carbing, anti-fungal drugs, and probiotics, as

well as some other less important supplements. Their argument seems

reasonable, and they are open to natural therapies, not just

dismissing them off-hand.

*takes a minute to itch his eye*

I don't have insurance right now, or I'd try anti-fungals combined

with a low to moderate- protein high-VCO diet, which I would think

best, since protein is glucogenic. Doctor might want to order some

tests for candida, of course. But I don't have insurance.

I was " diagnosed " with candida by Russ Newman of

naturalhealingsolutions.com, and I used massive quantities of

colloidal silver, MSM, special breed of oregano, I think an oil of

oregano too, maybe, etc, plus diet. Didn't help me much at all, even

though it did miracles for others. I think maybe I *do* have candida

or some other fungus/fungi, but that I need really strong therapy. It

would have helped, I think, to combine the 7-day VCO fast with kefired

coconut water and anti-fungal drugs, I think. That combo would really

have hit hard.

I guess I should be reducing my sugars now, but it takes so long with

such minimal results from diet alone, that I'm going to continue with

my fruit and veggies until I can do a serious treatment. I think as

long as I stay away from maple syrup and juices I shouldn't aggrivate

it too much, especially with my two-meal-a-day no-snacking and

onslaught of digestive aids.

How is your progress? Are you using any anti-fungals in addition to probiotics?

Chris

--

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[Guest guest]

On 8/29/05, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> I had technical problems with the shower recently, and a

> day or two without washing will produce redness and milk inflammation

> in that area, which I think also indicates candida.

Milk? Wha? Oops. I meant " mild. " And that's penile, not anal.

Chris

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[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 8/25/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>>

>>

>> You said you have trouble digesting carbs in general. I just

>wanted to let

>> you know that candida messes up carb digestion, in case you

>weren't already

>> aware of it. Do you happen to know if you have Candida?

>

>Hi Suze,

>

>I did some thinking and poking around, and I think it's highly likely.

> I found this site particularly useful:

>http://www.cfs-recovery.org/docdarren2.html#symptoms

>

>Eczema, which, as you know, I've had very bad cases of (which

>responded to Primal Defense, which is anti-candida, and butter oil,

>which is healthy for the gut), plus I have what appears to be

>psoriasis on my scalp, which started possibly in response to a hair

>gel, at least that's when I started noticing it.

According to Dr. Crook in " The Yeast Connection " both of these conditions

can be connected to Candida overgrowth.

>

>I also have toe fungus, which I think was a response to the influence

>of 10 hours of workboot-wearing per day at the concrete job, which

>decreased 80% during the VCO fast (which is supposed to be very

>anti-fungal), but has remained stagnant since. Toe fungus apparently

>indicates systemic fungus.

Yep.

>

>I of course have and have always had poor digestion and gas.

Right, candida is also sometimes the cause of bloat.

>

>Before the VCO fast, I was drinking lots of OJ and craving it. The

>more such sugary foods I would eat, the more I would crave them.

>Months earlier, I don't know why I was stupid enough to drink

>weight-gaining drinks when I was in a jam for a post-workout snack

>that provided 1100 calories of maltodextrin and some high fructose

>corn syrup, but that probably induced the sugar cravings. The VCO

>fast eliminated my sugar cravings, caused my psoriasis to get better,

>etc, but didn't *eliminate* many of my symptoms.

I have a problem with sugar cravings too, especially when I menstruate.

>

>Here's an interesting datum: I was told a few years ago, as it just,

>oddly, happened to come up in conversation, that urinating in

>different directions is a sign of prostate cancer, or something like

>that. As far as I can remember, I have always had an issue of my

>urine being, at its worst, in different directions, but more commonly

>being spread out so it was at different directions but close enough

>that it all made it in the toilet. :-P Since this seems to increase

>when there is... umm, sticky stuff stuck in the urethra, I'm guessing

>this, as a general chronic problem, could indicate a fungal invasion

>of the urethra?

I don't know.

>

>Before this recent fast, I've always had an issue with whiteness on my

>tongue. The whiteness on my tongue during the fast was dramatic,

>thick, and covered my whole tongue. But since I started eating (with

>lots of HCl and enzymes), my tongue has been squeaky clean like I

>can't even remember it being. But I still have psoriasis on my scalp,

>a little eczema that comes and goes, remnants of toe fungus,

>itchiness, itchy eyes and allergies, etc.

I had constant whiteness on my tongue during the fast too, but but still

have it now when I wake up in the morning (but not during the day).

>

>So that does seem to indicate candida, doesn't it?

IMO - yes. I think the toe fungus is a BIG hint that candida may be behind

these issues rather than some other culprit. Of course candida is linked to

food intolerances too, and you think you might be intolerant to gluten and

casein. So that would be another clue in addition to everything else listed

above.

>

>According to the link above, probiotics will NOT be effective in

>killing candida, because they can only colonize once the candida is

>removed.

I think that last part is incorrect. I think they can colonize whether or

not candida is overgrown, but I'm not certain they can get RID of the

invasive candida that digs into the mucosal lining of the intestinal tract.

Someone on a candida list I'm on is pretty emphatic that probiotics are the

main weapon against candida though. I assume based on her own experience and

maybe that of others on the list. I haven't read much of that list yet

though.

It also says that non-pharmaceutical anti-fungals are too

>weak to be effective.

I think the person who wrote that information may simply not have had enough

information to base that on at the time. I understand that oregano oil, for

instance, is very effective against candida. He didn't mention OO at all

under " natural anti-fungals " . As an example, Dr. Crook writes that Dr.

(the one who wrote " Why Stomach Acid is Good for You " has found that

50 mgs of oregano (NOT oil - just oregano) is as effective as Nystatin. Dr.

Crook cites another physician who has some patients that have found

undecylenic acid to be just as effective as prescription anti-fungals.

They argue that an effective treatment involves

>a combination of low-carbing, anti-fungal drugs, and probiotics, as

>well as some other less important supplements. Their argument seems

>reasonable, and they are open to natural therapies, not just

>dismissing them off-hand.

Reasonable, but probably lacking in sufficient information to say that

natural anti-fungals aren't good enough. Having said that, I'm considering

taking nystatin, which is not processed by the liver, and does not leave the

digestive tract according to Dr. Shaw in the autism book I often quote from.

It is claimed to be extremely safe - much more so than all the other

prescription anti-fungals.

>I don't have insurance right now, or I'd try anti-fungals combined

>with a low to moderate- protein high-VCO diet, which I would think

>best, since protein is glucogenic. Doctor might want to order some

>tests for candida, of course. But I don't have insurance.

I'm not going to take a test. I might talk to a local ND I'm friendly with

and see if he'd prescribe it for me without having to take a test.

>

>I was " diagnosed " with candida by Russ Newman of

>naturalhealingsolutions.com, and I used massive quantities of

>colloidal silver, MSM, special breed of oregano, I think an oil of

>oregano too, maybe, etc, plus diet. Didn't help me much at all, even

>though it did miracles for others. I think maybe I *do* have candida

>or some other fungus/fungi, but that I need really strong therapy. It

>would have helped, I think, to combine the 7-day VCO fast with kefired

>coconut water and anti-fungal drugs, I think. That combo would really

>have hit hard.

Probably. But Oregano oil is stronger than caprylic acid, so if that didn't

help you I doubt VCO would be more useful. Oil of Oregano really works well

for me. But I do think it's also anti-bacterial so it's two steps forward,

one step back. That's the advantage of anti-fungals since they are not also

anti-bacterial...*although* maybe it IS a good idea to do anti-fungal and

anti-bacterial therapy together since a gut that is dysbiotic due to candida

could well also harbor pathogenic bacteria as well. So, removing all those

things and dosing up on probiotics might be the most comprehensive plan. Dr.

Shaw found that many children with autism who had gut problems weren't

suffereing from candida infection but rather from an overgrowth of

clostridium difficile, for instance.

>How is your progress? Are you using any anti-fungals in addition

>to probiotics?

Well, no anti-fungal *drugs* at this point. Right now I'm taking oregano

oil, an anti-yeast herbal tincture from Dr. Ron and tons of probiotics. I

haven't cut back on sugars as much as I'd like to (just got my period and

the cravings are strong) but that's going to be reduced. Same as alcohol,

although dry wine is fairly low carb, but I still need to be careful with my

intake. Interestingly, I did a lowish-carb diet a few years ago, but still

drank 2 beers a day, and my candida symptoms went away for many months. They

eventually came back (I was still eating gluten and cow's milk products at

the time as I didn't know I was allergic then), either due to food allergies

or just too many simple carbs at some point.

In any case, I'm feeling very, very deprived these days having had to cut

out the main foods that brought me enjoyment in the past, and am not doing a

severe anti-candida diet, but rather a more modest one that I can maintain

over the long haul. If it doesn't work, then I will have no choice but to do

something more drastic. I'll give it at least a few months though, first.

And I need to do more research too, and modify it accordingly as I go.

If I run across any relevant info I'll post it for you.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

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Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 8/29/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> I think that last part is incorrect. I think they can colonize whether or

> not candida is overgrown, but I'm not certain they can get RID of the

> invasive candida that digs into the mucosal lining of the intestinal tract.

Obviously that can't colonize that area if they can't get rid of the

candida. What would they do, colonize on top of the candida? That's

the point in the article above. They are necessary to colonize and

crowd out candida, but can only do so effectively in conjunction with

prescription-strength pharmaceuticals.

> Someone on a candida list I'm on is pretty emphatic that probiotics are the

> main weapon against candida though. I assume based on her own experience

> and

> maybe that of others on the list. I haven't read much of that list yet

> though.

The authors of the article I linked to were also emphatic that they

were essential. However, they also said that in their experience--

and I think they're doctors who treat candida-- and in any that

they've heard of, there are no successful cases of full relief from

candida without antifungals. Whether or not that's absolutely true,

it's probably *generally* true.

They say that the symptoms of candida with diflucan can disappear

sometimes with one dose. However, they insist that all three

pillars-- the drugs, the low-carb diet, and the heavy probiotics, be

continued for 3 months after all symptoms disappear, because the

symptoms generally disappear before the candida overgrowth fully

disappears.

> It also says that non-pharmaceutical anti-fungals are too

> >weak to be effective.

>

> I think the person who wrote that information may simply not have had

> enough

> information to base that on at the time. I understand that oregano oil, for

> instance, is very effective against candida. He didn't mention OO at all

> under " natural anti-fungals " . As an example, Dr. Crook writes that Dr.

> (the one who wrote " Why Stomach Acid is Good for You " has found that

> 50 mgs of oregano (NOT oil - just oregano) is as effective as Nystatin. Dr.

> Crook cites another physician who has some patients that have found

> undecylenic acid to be just as effective as prescription anti-fungals.

Ok, that's interesting. But also note that, at least according to

that article, Nystatin is the weakest antifungal drug and is not

comparable to diflucan and the newer lamesil. They suggest that

lamesil is going to push out diflucan as the drug of choice for

various reasons, but that both are very safe, which I think is even

truer if combined with a high-probiotic diet as suggested in the

article.

> They argue that an effective treatment involves

> >a combination of low-carbing, anti-fungal drugs, and probiotics, as

> >well as some other less important supplements. Their argument seems

> >reasonable, and they are open to natural therapies, not just

> >dismissing them off-hand.

>

> Reasonable, but probably lacking in sufficient information to say that

> natural anti-fungals aren't good enough. Having said that, I'm considering

> taking nystatin, which is not processed by the liver, and does not leave

> the

> digestive tract according to Dr. Shaw in the autism book I often quote

> from.

> It is claimed to be extremely safe - much more so than all the other

> prescription anti-fungals.

I will look into it considerably more before I attempt trying any

anti-fungals, but from what I understand the risk of liver toxicity

with the others is extremely rare. It's a short-term treatment, not a

life-long treatment. It makes more sense, I think, to use something

that has real effectiveness than to use something with flimsy

effectiveness. I mean, isn't the fact that there *are* candida lists

and such a testament to the fact that most candida treatments are very

poorly efficacious?

> I'm not going to take a test. I might talk to a local ND I'm friendly with

> and see if he'd prescribe it for me without having to take a test.

NDs can prescribe drugs? I didn't know that. I thought only MDs and

DOs could prescribe drugs.

> >I was " diagnosed " with candida by Russ Newman of

> >naturalhealingsolutions.com, and I used massive quantities of

> >colloidal silver, MSM, special breed of oregano, I think an oil of

> >oregano too, maybe, etc, plus diet. Didn't help me much at all, even

> >though it did miracles for others. I think maybe I *do* have candida

> >or some other fungus/fungi, but that I need really strong therapy. It

> >would have helped, I think, to combine the 7-day VCO fast with kefired

> >coconut water and anti-fungal drugs, I think. That combo would really

> >have hit hard.

> Probably. But Oregano oil is stronger than caprylic acid, so if that didn't

> help you I doubt VCO would be more useful.

VCO doesn't help me. The VCO fast did. VCO in addition to diet

relies on the antifungal properties of VCO, which are incredibly weak,

whereas the VCO fast works partly on the starving out theory, and is

very effective. It's main point of effectiveness, of course, is like,

unlike any anti-candida diet, it eliminates all sources of sugar from

the diet.

> Oil of Oregano really works well

> for me. But I do think it's also anti-bacterial so it's two steps forward,

> one step back. That's the advantage of anti-fungals since they are not also

> anti-bacterial...*although* maybe it IS a good idea to do anti-fungal and

> anti-bacterial therapy together since a gut that is dysbiotic due to

> candida

> could well also harbor pathogenic bacteria as well. So, removing all those

> things and dosing up on probiotics might be the most comprehensive plan.

> Dr.

> Shaw found that many children with autism who had gut problems weren't

> suffereing from candida infection but rather from an overgrowth of

> clostridium difficile, for instance.

Hmm. Maybe antifungal drugs combined with oil of oregano and garlic,

and other antibiotics are the best solution.

> In any case, I'm feeling very, very deprived these days having had to cut

> out the main foods that brought me enjoyment in the past, and am not doing

> a

> severe anti-candida diet, but rather a more modest one that I can maintain

> over the long haul. If it doesn't work, then I will have no choice but to

> do

> something more drastic. I'll give it at least a few months though, first.

> And I need to do more research too, and modify it accordingly as I go.

I understand what you mean, and this is one reason why I would suggest

using a potent anti-fungal drug. I read that lamesil is used to treat

nail fungi specifically, and the authors of the drug I posted

recommended it as better than diflucan, so that's probably the one

I'll look into. But in any case, even the " drastic " anti-candida

diets take enormous amounts of time for only moderate relief of

symptoms, from what I've seen. And the deprivation from a strict

anti-candida diet is not fun.

Every effective treatment has its side effects. I had a surgery where

there was a 2% chance of an infection that would have hospitalized me

for weeks. Over-the-counter things we use like PD have adverse

effects in people. It's true with everything. While it merits

further research, the authors of the article I linked to say that

liver toxicity from diflucan and lamesil are " extremely rare. " If

they are dramatically more potent than nystatin, I don't think it

makes sense to use nystatin *only* because it has *no* risk of liver

toxicity. If the toxicity risk of lamesil and diflucan are extremely

rare and nystatin is non-existant, then the toxicity risk of all three

are essentially the same.

Besides, whatever metabolites arise from the 30% or so of diflucan and

lamesil that leave the digestive tract there's no reason to think they

could possibly be more harmful than the *candida* metabolites. Also,

I wonder whether it isn't *helpful* to have a portion leave the

digestive tract if the candidiasis is systemic. A systemic infection

could have numerous focal points besides the intestines where it

started, so that's one more reason to think Nystatin is inferior to

the others, IMO.

> If I run across any relevant info I'll post it for you.

Thanks!

Chris

--

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[Guest guest]

I ran into an article on kellymom.com that cited some literature on

oil of oregano, one of which speculated it could cause liver toxicity

at high doses, though I'm not sure what the evidence is.

I read on www.naturalhealingsolutions.com, the design of which is

awful, that " prolonged use " of nystatin or diflucan can lead to

candida mutating into a more difficult-to-treat form like candida

tropicalis. I don't think he cited anything for that, and he's

selling his own stuff (that didn't work for me), of which nystatin and

diflucan are direct competitors.

In any case, I wonder what " prolonged " means? My impression is that

most doctors just give the antifungals and don't prescribe diet or

probiotics. So some people will get a little better on diflucan, then

eat SAD so their symptoms come back really fast, then go on diflucan

again, etc. I doubt that works the same as using lamesil or diflucan

combined with low-carb diet combined with probiotics, and then

resuming a diet that is moderate-carb and free of junk food.

Of course, I don't have insurance, and lamesil costs about $400/month.

So I'm thinking of trying oil of oregano. Dr. Shulze's

liver-gallbladder formula, which contains clarkia, is also

anti-candida, though I ran out about a week ago. (I wonder if it is

bad to start these regimens without going until all symptoms are gone?

Could this make dysbiosis more resistant?)

From Googling, it appears undecylenic acid is only available in

topical form, though I read an article that talked about using it

internally. Where is the internal form available?

I'd like to do something really aggressive. If I can't do lamesil,

I'm thinking maybe the L-GB + OO + undecylenic acid will be the next

best thing? In which case I will combine it with the original

ketogenic diet (90% fat) for the first week

Chris

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[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Of course, I don't have insurance, and lamesil costs about $400/month.

> So I'm thinking of trying oil of oregano.

Lamisil does really nasty things to the liver, so I wouldn't recommend it

except as an extreme last resort.

> Dr. Shulze's

>liver-gallbladder formula, which contains clarkia,

Not exactly true. It contains two of the three ingredients of clarkia

(black walnut hulls and wormwood) but not cloves, though it also has some

ingredients clarkia doesn't.

>(I wonder if it is

>bad to start these regimens without going until all symptoms are gone?

> Could this make dysbiosis more resistant?)

Yes, it's a bad idea and it easily can. But you actually have to go past

the point of no symptoms to make sure you've really eradicated the problem.

> From Googling, it appears undecylenic acid is only available in

>topical form, though I read an article that talked about using it

>internally. Where is the internal form available?

Hmm, here's one.

http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=10939

I think I'm going to try that myself, unless I can find something without

the pau d'arco.

Here's an interesting article if you haven't already read it.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_7/ai_83582819

>I'd like to do something really aggressive. If I can't do lamesil,

>I'm thinking maybe the L-GB + OO + undecylenic acid will be the next

>best thing? In which case I will combine it with the original

>ketogenic diet (90% fat) for the first week

Forget about lamisil. Oil of oregano is good (though it tastes NASTY),

calcium undecylenate looks extremely promising, Schulze's LGB-AP might be

very useful, and don't forget grapefruit seed extract. There's actually

some in the supplement I linked to above, but you might want more.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Lamisil does really nasty things to the liver, so I wouldn't recommend it

> except as an extreme last resort.

In everyone? I read that liver toxicity is rare. I didn't look too

far into it though.

> > Dr. Shulze's

> >liver-gallbladder formula, which contains clarkia,

>

> Not exactly true. It contains two of the three ingredients of clarkia

> (black walnut hulls and wormwood) but not cloves, though it also has some

> ingredients clarkia doesn't.

I just realized this morning that his L-GB is a different formula from

his L-GB-AP, the former of which I took, the latter of which you took.

I compared the ingredients, and, oddly, even though they were

slightly different, the L-GB has the bwh, ww, and the garlic bulb, to

which the AP functions of the AP version are attributed! So I don't

get what the difference is.

Anyway, I also realized that the clarkia is different this morning, as

you point out.

> >(I wonder if it is

> >bad to start these regimens without going until all symptoms are gone?

> > Could this make dysbiosis more resistant?)

>

> Yes, it's a bad idea and it easily can. But you actually have to go past

> the point of no symptoms to make sure you've really eradicated the problem.

Right, ok. So I ran out of the L-GB. Today, I picked up oil of

oregano, olive leaf extract, and caprylate (I couldn't find

undecylenate, which is supposed to be 4 times more effective than

caprylate). I'm going to combine it with a ketogenic diet, which will

consist of low-carb veggies, fats, and only a small portion of

protein, for the " inductive phase, " and then I will continue with a

moderately low-carb, SCD-type diet without the allergens, lots of

probiotics, and continue all the antifungals I start for a couple

months after all symptoms go away.

BUT, if the clarkia ingredients have slightly different or very

different (I have no idea) functions than the other antifungals I'm

using, does that mean I should definitely restart it, so I don't do

damage by starting and stopping it?

Finally-- here's the weird thing-- the clarkia website suggests using

it for 2 weeks, then stopping for a week, and alternating like that

until you've had 8 weeks of active use over a period of 11 weeks

total. How does that fit in with stopping and starting being bad, and

what on earth is the logic of it?

> > From Googling, it appears undecylenic acid is only available in

> >topical form, though I read an article that talked about using it

> >internally. Where is the internal form available?

>

> Hmm, here's one.

>

> http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=10939

>

> I think I'm going to try that myself, unless I can find something without

> the pau d'arco.

Thanks, I'll order it.

> Here's an interesting article if you haven't already read it.

>

> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_7/ai_83582819

Nope, thanks.

> Forget about lamisil. Oil of oregano is good (though it tastes NASTY),

I just had some, and I had it before on the anti-candida protocol from

Russ Newman which did nothing for me a couple years ago, based around

massive quantities of colloidal silver. Actually, although it's

super-strong, I LIKE the taste. I've actually been craving it lately,

because using oregano in my food has reminded me of it, from the

previous protocol.

SIDEBAR: during the month of the anti-candida protocol from Russ

Newman, there were several days were my eczema miraculously regressed.

This only occured on days where I ate nothing but celery sticks as a

vehicle for massive quantities of palm butter. It's my suspicion that

the little bit of carbs I was eating otherwise, but mostly the

glucogenic nature of all the protein I was eating, was feeding the

candida. I suspect that an effective anti-candida diet, especially if

the infection is systemic, must be low in both protein and carb, and

primarily fat. (Plus the massive quantity of fatty acids and

fat-soluble vitamins are probably helpful too.)

> calcium undecylenate looks extremely promising, Schulze's LGB-AP might be

> very useful, and don't forget grapefruit seed extract. There's actually

> some in the supplement I linked to above, but you might want more.

Hmm. Ok. I've never used grapefruit seed extract, but from what I

recall, my friend Wayne (the guy who introduced me to raw milk when I

worked under him at the UMass dining hall) had said that it made his

eczema go away.

Do you think it would be better to use LGB-AP, or clarkia? How

important are the cloves versus the other ingredients.

Oh, I'm also going to drink fresh ginger. I'm going to find some

non-dairy vehicle for kefir, will take PD, and have small amounts of

kimchi before my meals, which will basically consist of a very small

portion of protein, celery sticks dipped in refrigerated EVOO with

spices, and coconut oil, for now anyway.

Thanks for the info.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>I read on www.naturalhealingsolutions.com, the design of which is

>awful, that " prolonged use " of nystatin or diflucan can lead to

>candida mutating into a more difficult-to-treat form like candida

>tropicalis. I don't think he cited anything for that, and he's

>selling his own stuff (that didn't work for me), of which nystatin and

>diflucan are direct competitors.

>

>

>

This is just my personal experience, but nystatin sucks. Don't waste

your money. Diflucan rocks as far as a pharmaceutical antifungal

goes....very effective for ductal and oral thrush.

My take on the overgrowth thing is that antifungals will only be

effective if there is dietary attentions being made to candida as well,

which I'm sure you're doing.

Our story is that I was *begging* our family doctor to rx diflucan for

my kids because their reactions were spiralling out of control with no

end in sight. He steadfastly refused and the dietary measures that I

was taking didn't seem to be helping. What finally worked for the kids

was taking shot glasses of raw garlic juice mixed in with juiced NT

ginger carrots--this on top of a low-glycemic diet (BED) and coconut

milk kefir. After they started reacting to foods again (thank you goat

milk kefir ) a nutritionist suggested Nutricology's Tribiotics. It

contains berberine sulfate, artemisinin, citrus seed extract, and black

walnut hulls. This was much easier on my kids than the shot glasses and

stabilized them once more. I highly recommend it if mainstream

antifungals give one pause or are unavailable.

>In any case, I wonder what " prolonged " means? My impression is that

>most doctors just give the antifungals and don't prescribe diet or

>probiotics.

>

Unfortunately, many do. A friend of mine has a family member with

toenail fungus. Multiple rx's for lamasil have done no good and she

ended up having the toenail removed. Of course, a dietary change was

out of the question. <boggle>

>So some people will get a little better on diflucan, then

>eat SAD so their symptoms come back really fast, then go on diflucan

>again, etc. I doubt that works the same as using lamesil or diflucan

>combined with low-carb diet combined with probiotics, and then

>resuming a diet that is moderate-carb and free of junk food.

>

>

>

I would agree.

I'd suggest that you google up Tribiotics and look at it. At $25 or so

a bottle, it would be *much* cheaper than a rx antifungal and might be

just as helpful.

HTH!

--s

[Guest guest]

Three brief replies:

On 8/30/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Here's an interesting article if you haven't already read it.

>

> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_7/ai_83582819

Now that I look at it, that's the article I read last night, but I

read it on a different website.

Suzanne-- Thanks for the info. I just bought a bunch of stuff before

I saw your email, which I hope will do the trick, and I think covers

some of the bases, anyway, of the Tribiotics, though I'm not sure of

the functions of all of the ingredients.

Suze-- Until you replied, I didn't realize how old that article was

(1996, I think). So it looks like you're right that the top

antifungals aren't mentioned, and thus are probably newer than that

article, and are maybe much more powerful and perhaps some rival

antifungal pharmaceuticals.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>Three brief replies:

>

>On 8/30/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

>

>

>>Here's an interesting article if you haven't already read it.

>>

>>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_7/ai_83582819

>>

>>

>

>Now that I look at it, that's the article I read last night, but I

>read it on a different website.

>

>Suzanne-- Thanks for the info. I just bought a bunch of stuff before

>I saw your email, which I hope will do the trick, and I think covers

>some of the bases, anyway, of the Tribiotics, though I'm not sure of

>the functions of all of the ingredients.

>

>

<nodding> I went with the tribiotics for two reasons 1) I had a high

confidence in the nutritionist's expertise and 2) it would be easier to

get my children to tolerate a single capsule than a whole litany of

individual ingredients. Had Tribiotics not been available, I would have

done exactly what you are doing.

Best of results for you!

--s

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Suzanne Noakes <snoakes@...> wrote:

> >Suzanne-- Thanks for the info. I just bought a bunch of stuff before

> >I saw your email, which I hope will do the trick, and I think covers

> >some of the bases, anyway, of the Tribiotics, though I'm not sure of

> >the functions of all of the ingredients.

> <nodding> I went with the tribiotics for two reasons 1) I had a high

> confidence in the nutritionist's expertise and 2) it would be easier to

> get my children to tolerate a single capsule than a whole litany of

> individual ingredients. Had Tribiotics not been available, I would have

> done exactly what you are doing.

That's funny, because I'm actually preferring to piece things together

by choice. I found one program at Vitamin Shoppe called Candigone or

something like that, that actually looked pretty good. It was

actually the only thing I could find with calcium undecylenate in it.

But I didn't get it because it gave me no latitude on piecing things

together! For example, I picked among various oil of oregano

supplements to find one that was by far the highest concentration of--

whatever that active ingredient is-- and was about the same cost as

another one with four times less! But the Candigone didn't state what

the amount of the *active ingredient* in its OO was. And there were

various ingredients I could cover other bases with, and I had no

option to decide on the importance of various pieces of it.

In any case, I'm going to doing a super-low-carb anti-glucogenic diet,

I have good coverage for antifungals, especially once my undecylenate

comes in, which seems to be the best stuff, and I have probiotics from

various angles, so I think the regimen should be pretty effective.

> Best of results for you!

Thanks!

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>That's funny, because I'm actually preferring to piece things together

>by choice.

>

And you'll probably find, as an adult, you can tweak your dosages more

effectively this way. I'm flying blind, because I'm usually dosing by

proxy and it is hard to get good feedback from a five yo, yk?

>I found one program at Vitamin Shoppe called Candigone or

>something like that, that actually looked pretty good. It was

>actually the only thing I could find with calcium undecylenate in it.

>

>But I didn't get it because it gave me no latitude on piecing things

>together!

>

That's one of the downsides of multiple ingredient remedies.

>For example, I picked among various oil of oregano

>supplements to find one that was by far the highest concentration of--

>whatever that active ingredient is-- and was about the same cost as

>another one with four times less! But the Candigone didn't state what

>the amount of the *active ingredient* in its OO was.

>

That sort of thing cheeses me. It looks dishonest, because you can't

make a valid comparison between two products and decide if you are

getting your money's worth.

>In any case, I'm going to doing a super-low-carb anti-glucogenic diet,

>I have good coverage for antifungals, especially once my undecylenate

>comes in, which seems to be the best stuff, and I have probiotics from

>various angles, so I think the regimen should be pretty effective.

>

>

If our experience is any indication, you're on the right track.

It's a very slow process and we get impatient sometimes, but we've come

a long way.

--s

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Suzanne Noakes <snoakes@...> wrote:

> And you'll probably find, as an adult, you can tweak your dosages more

> effectively this way. I'm flying blind, because I'm usually dosing by

> proxy and it is hard to get good feedback from a five yo, yk?

That's my thought. Getting a complex doesn't allow me to tweak the

dosage of individual components. I might decide that I can tolerate

one given component and that raising the dose is much more effective,

but wouldn't want to raise the dose of the whole complex.

I like driving standards too. I like to be in control ;-)

> That sort of thing cheeses me. It looks dishonest, because you can't

> make a valid comparison between two products and decide if you are

> getting your money's worth.

A lot of the individual products had the amount of-- whatever that

active ingeredient is listed, and some didn't. But I basically

assumed that if someone isn't advertising the amount, then it's

probably pretty low. Just like none of the racemic mixtures of

alpha-lipoic acid advertise the fact that they're racemic mixtures,

but the ones that contain only the R-form *do* advertise that fact.

Granted, the Candigone and such programs are geared towards people who

want someone else to do the research and put the formula together for

them, whereas individual things are probably more geared towards

people who want to pick and choose and assemble their own treatments,

so that might be one reason for less info. Another is that it

contained so many ingredients that there wouldn't be enough room for

all the details.

> If our experience is any indication, you're on the right track.

> It's a very slow process and we get impatient sometimes, but we've come

> a long way.

I have a hunch that a true ketogenic diet will make the process MUCH

faster than the typical low-carb diet recommended, and especially a

diet that allows low-glycemic carbs. I say this part based on limited

experience, and part based on theory:

1) A diet that allows low-glycemic carbs just favors feeding candida

in the colon over feeding candida in the small intestine. That's not

really a significant advantage.

2) A diet that allows a hefty amount of protein is highly glucogenic.

In terms of blood sugar, there is really no difference between eating

many forms of lean protein and eating carbs. Close to half of the

amino acids in most proteins are glucogenic. I'm not sure if any of

these carbs are formed in the intestines, but a systemic candida

infection needs to keep *blood sugar* low, and the amount of sugar

being delivered to skeletal muscle and the internal organs low. The

only way to do this is a true ketogenic diet, which needs to be about

90% fat, 5% protein, and 5% carb max. I don't think this is a good

long-term diet (unless it's for treating neurological problems), but I

suspect that it is vastly superior in jump-starting an antifungal

program than a diet that is merely low-carb and not also low-protein.

From personal experience, when I was on an anti-candida diet that

allowed oatmeal, everything got worse when I ate oatmeal, so I

eliminated it quickly. The diet and the $300 worth of colloidal

silver, MSM, wild oregano, oil of wild oregano, etc, did nothing for

me over 30 days EXCEPT on days when I ate nothing but celery sticks

and massive quantities of palm butter. My diet was about 99% calories

from fat, and I noticed miraculous recoveries in my eczema, which was

covering about 40% of my body. I would notice massive smoothing of

the skin and regression of inflammation over the course of a day.

BUT, when my diet was, say, 50-60% celery sticks and palm butter, but

I also ate other things allowed on the anti-candida diet, my eczema

would come right back. I never during this time persisted in keeping

to the celery stick/palm butter diet continuously, but it seems to

hint at the idea of a >90% fat diet being the way to go, at least for

a time.

Also, when I did a VCO cleanse, I was eating 16 T/day of VCO, no

protein, and strong lemon/lime-water with salt, for seven days. I saw

an 80% reduction of my toe fungus. The logic of the VCO fast is that

the only calories you are consuming are toxic to the fungi and will

cleanse the intestines, but from what I've read I don't think a

significant portion of MCFAs and SCFAs reach the colon, since they are

absorbed in the small intestine and go straight to the blood, skipping

over the lymph ducts and everything. BUT, I think this again hits at

the point above-- a systemic infection needs to get the antifungals

circulating in the BLOOD. Which is probably why Nystatin sucks.

On my water/coconut water fast, it really did nothing for my toe

fungus, but caused massive detox through my tongue that didn't occur

on the VCO fast, and may have reduced the magnitude of my psoriasis.

I also noticed a few warts start to shrink a bit, which I've had on my

hands only recently, and which continued to go away after the fast. I

just noticed that today, four of them have finished healing and aren't

there any more.

In any case, the VCO fast and the water/CW fast had different effects.

I think they were both similar in that they starved everything in my

intestines, but the VCO fast might have had a better effect on my toe

fungus by delivering antifungals through the blood to the toenails.

But from what I've seen, it appears that antifungal DRUGS are only

effective if the diet is treated simultaneously, which is probably why

lamesil did nothing for my grandfather. And, unfortunately, I bet

that serves only to mask the systemic nature of nail fungus to most

physicians. Poor results might indicate to them that many people have

isolated fungus issues, when it could be the case that all of them are

systemic, but that for many people the drugs will just not work

without the right diet.

In any case, I'm going to try to do >90% fat diet for a week or so,

and hopefully this will jumpstart it big time. I think the cleanse

from the fast and the fact that I've been treating my digestive system

very well in the two weeks since will probably help as well-- the

fungi are probably relatively tamed at the moment, and by the color of

my tongue, my body has already done a great job detoxing all the

toxins they've been secreting.

I'll be sure to keep everyone posted.

By the way, I can still taste the oil of oregano. I love that taste so much!

I wonder if that's because it's antifungal. Since my fast, I've been

craving bitters like chocolate and coffee, red wine, and oregano. I

don't know about antifungal, but I know coffee is toxic to various

pathogenic bacteria, and said red wine is anti-fungal, and wild

oregno is very antifungal. So maybe since the fast initiated a

healing process, my body is trying to convince me to fill up on things

that will help continue it.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 8/29/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> I think that last part is incorrect. I think they can colonize whether or

>> not candida is overgrown, but I'm not certain they can get RID of the

>> invasive candida that digs into the mucosal lining of the

>intestinal tract.

>

>Obviously that can't colonize that area if they can't get rid of the

>candida. What would they do, colonize on top of the candida?

I'm not clear on your meaning? Perhaps we are not thinking of colonization

in the same way? I understand it to mean setting up a colony of bacteria (or

whathaveyou) in the digestive tract. Further, it is my understanding that

beneficial bacteria can colonize the digestive tract regardless of whether

yeasts are present.

From what you said above, I assume you understand " colonization " to mean

something else?

That's

>the point in the article above. They are necessary to colonize and

>crowd out candida, but can only do so effectively in conjunction with

>prescription-strength pharmaceuticals.

Ah well, I just read some of the material under the " symptoms " section which

is the section you linked to, not the section that discussed colonization. I

just scanned the top sections of the page and still don't see the part where

they discuss colonization. I don't have time to read the whole article now,

unfortunately.

>Ok, that's interesting. But also note that, at least according to

>that article, Nystatin is the weakest antifungal drug and is not

>comparable to diflucan and the newer lamesil. They suggest that

>lamesil is going to push out diflucan as the drug of choice for

>various reasons, but that both are very safe, which I think is even

>truer if combined with a high-probiotic diet as suggested in the

>article.

I got most of my info on nystatin from Dr. Shaw's book. I tried to re-read

it last night to remind myself what he said about his experience with it,

but I was exhausted and fell asleep before I could find the relevant info. I

will try again tonight.

>

>I will look into it considerably more before I attempt trying any

>anti-fungals, but from what I understand the risk of liver toxicity

>with the others is extremely rare. It's a short-term treatment, not a

>life-long treatment. It makes more sense, I think, to use something

>that has real effectiveness than to use something with flimsy

>effectiveness. I mean, isn't the fact that there *are* candida lists

>and such a testament to the fact that most candida treatments are very

>poorly efficacious?

Or that people don't follow them very closely. But yes, I agree that using

something with real effectiveness is certainly more reasonable than using

something with little effectiveness. Having said that, I was not under the

impression up to this point that nystatin wasn't very effective.

>

>> I'm not going to take a test. I might talk to a local ND I'm

>friendly with

>> and see if he'd prescribe it for me without having to take a test.

>

>NDs can prescribe drugs? I didn't know that. I thought only MDs and

>DOs could prescribe drugs.

It's on a state by state basis. In Maine ND's can prescribe drugs.

>

>> In any case, I'm feeling very, very deprived these days having had to cut

>> out the main foods that brought me enjoyment in the past, and am

>not doing

>> a

>> severe anti-candida diet, but rather a more modest one that I

>can maintain

>> over the long haul. If it doesn't work, then I will have no choice but to

>> do

>> something more drastic. I'll give it at least a few months though, first.

>> And I need to do more research too, and modify it accordingly as I go.

>

>I understand what you mean, and this is one reason why I would suggest

>using a potent anti-fungal drug. I read that lamesil is used to treat

>nail fungi specifically, and the authors of the drug I posted

>recommended it as better than diflucan, so that's probably the one

>I'll look into. But in any case, even the " drastic " anti-candida

>diets take enormous amounts of time for only moderate relief of

>symptoms, from what I've seen. And the deprivation from a strict

>anti-candida diet is not fun.

Yeh well, like I said on GFCFNN, first they took away my beer, then they

took away my cream, kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, Morbier and raw ice cream.

Then they took away my beloved carbs, then my eggs, bacon and even mineral

water. What's the point in living, honestly, if I can't enjoy eating

anymore? <sob>

Well, at least my most obvious symptom is gone (feminine itch). Now I need

to figure out if my bloating is a symptom of candida overgrowth or something

else. You are fortunate in that you have pretty obvious symptoms. I'm not

really sure how to gauge my symptom reduction (other than feminine itch)

because my symptoms could be caused by food allergies or Hg toxicity, both

of which I've felt I've had or have (and KNOW I have in the case of food

allergies).

BTW, what dose of oregano oil are you taking?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Suzanne Noakes

>This is just my personal experience, but nystatin sucks. Don't waste

>your money. Diflucan rocks as far as a pharmaceutical antifungal

>goes....very effective for ductal and oral thrush.

What do you mean by " ductal " Suzanne?

What finally worked for the kids

>was taking shot glasses of raw garlic juice mixed in with juiced NT

>ginger carrots--this on top of a low-glycemic diet (BED) and coconut

>milk kefir.

How much garlic approx. did they take daily?

And did you buy pre-made coconut milk to make the kefir with? Or did you

make your own coconut milk?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Idol

>

>Hmm, here's one.

>

>http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=10939

>

>I think I'm going to try that myself, unless I can find something without

>the pau d'arco.

What don't you like about Pau d'arco ? That it's tough on the liver? I'm

taking Ron's antifungal/antiyeast now and Pau d'arco is the main ingredient.

I don't mind taking herbs that are difficult on the liver short term if I

feel the net benefit is worth it. I also ordered the supp above - thanks for

the link. I will alternate it with Ron's due to the Pau d'arco.

>

>Forget about lamisil. Oil of oregano is good (though it tastes NASTY)

I find it varies by brand. I don't mind the taste of Oreganol, but Wild Oats

braind OO tastes bizarre to me, and seems much more concentrated than

Oreganol. Burns my tongue.

Do you have a systemic candida infection? Just wondering since you said you

might order this product. Or is it for your suspected giardiasis?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze Fisher wrote:

> What do you mean by " ductal " Suzanne?

>

>

>

The ducts found in breast tissue. Quite unfun.

> What finally worked for the kids

>

>

>>was taking shot glasses of raw garlic juice mixed in with juiced NT

>>ginger carrots--this on top of a low-glycemic diet (BED) and coconut

>>milk kefir.

>>

>>

>

>How much garlic approx. did they take daily?

>

>

Hmmmm....I want to say it was a clove or two. I juiced it up along with

a bunch of " karrotkraut " with ginger in it....it came to a shot glass

full. We did this once a day for four months. TBH, it was grueling and

when I threw all of that wellness away experimenting with goat's milk

kefir, I was devastated at the thought of having to svengali them

through it again. It was with great relief that I found we could do

this with a pill. An adult might have the will to grit through it, but

it was tough with a 4 and 6 yo.

>And did you buy pre-made coconut milk to make the kefir with? Or did you

>make your own coconut milk?

>

>

>

I'll share my dirty little secret....t'ain't NT. I open up a can,

metabisulfites and all, and dump it into a jar with kefir grains. Two

years into this, I'm happy with the results we're seeing.

--s

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Suzanne Noakes

>

>

>

>Suze Fisher wrote:

>

>> What do you mean by " ductal " Suzanne?

>>

>>

>>

>The ducts found in breast tissue. Quite unfun.

Oh! I'd never heard of this before. How did you know candida caused it?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Suze Fisher wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>The ducts found in breast tissue. Quite unfun.

>>

>>

>

>Oh! I'd never heard of this before. How did you know candida caused it?

>

>

>

>

My HCP diagnosed it and rxed nystatin--which is how I know it sucks.

I've had it several times in the intervening years and diflucan never

failed to knock it out. I did have quite a heated online argument with

a pediatrician as to this possibility. The symptoms are much the same

as other areas that are infected with candida....itching, redness,

irritation, tenderness, burning, along with deep tissue shooting pains.

--s

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> I find it varies by brand. I don't mind the taste of Oreganol, but Wild

> Oats

> braind OO tastes bizarre to me, and seems much more concentrated than

> Oreganol. Burns my tongue.

Do you take it alone??? I would think it would be worthless if you

could tolerate it directly on your tongue! I mixe mine extremely

diluted in water-- about 4 drops to 4 oz, and it burns mildly.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> >> I think that last part is incorrect. I think they can colonize whether

> or

> >> not candida is overgrown, but I'm not certain they can get RID of the

> >> invasive candida that digs into the mucosal lining of the

> >intestinal tract.

> >

> >Obviously that can't colonize that area if they can't get rid of the

> >candida. What would they do, colonize on top of the candida?

>

> I'm not clear on your meaning? Perhaps we are not thinking of colonization

> in the same way? I understand it to mean setting up a colony of bacteria

> (or

> whathaveyou) in the digestive tract. Further, it is my understanding that

> beneficial bacteria can colonize the digestive tract regardless of whether

> yeasts are present.

That doesn't make sense. The colonization involves putting roots into

the intestine, and requires bare surface area. Again, obviously the

mere *presence* of fungi, which is normal and healthy, will not

inhibit bacteria from taking up their own spot, but they can only do

this to the extent that there is room left. The greater the extent of

the fungal overgrowth, the less the extent that bacteria or other

yeasts could implant. The whole point of taking the probiotics is to

crowd out the yeast. But they can't crowd out the yeast, because the

yeast is there first, crowding out the probiotics. So the yeast has

to be killed and removed, and then the probiotics have to fill in the

gap.

Of course, some transient bacteria might secrete anti-fungal

compounds, but they aren't going to just come in, uproot the fungi,

and implant themselves. There's going to have to be high enough

dosage of antifungals to kill the fungi and let the body remove it.

> From what you said above, I assume you understand " colonization " to mean

> something else?

I don't think so.

> That's

> >the point in the article above. They are necessary to colonize and

> >crowd out candida, but can only do so effectively in conjunction with

> >prescription-strength pharmaceuticals.

>

> Ah well, I just read some of the material under the " symptoms " section

> which is the section you linked to, not the section that discussed

colonization.

> I ust scanned the top sections of the page and still don't see the part

> where they discuss colonization. I don't have time to read the whole article

now,

> unfortunately.

I think it was just in a part about the necessity of antifungals, or

maybe the section on probiotics, not a specific section on

colonization. Either way, it seems the point is sort of superficially

apparent. I'm not sure what is questionable about the physical law

that two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time.

> I got most of my info on nystatin from Dr. Shaw's book. I tried to re-read

> it last night to remind myself what he said about his experience with it,

> but I was exhausted and fell asleep before I could find the relevant info.

> I will try again tonight.

Ok. Suzanne's experience with nystatin seemed to support the authors

of that article-- she said it was worthless.

> >I will look into it considerably more before I attempt trying any

> >anti-fungals, but from what I understand the risk of liver toxicity

> >with the others is extremely rare. It's a short-term treatment, not a

> >life-long treatment. It makes more sense, I think, to use something

> >that has real effectiveness than to use something with flimsy

> >effectiveness. I mean, isn't the fact that there *are* candida lists

> >and such a testament to the fact that most candida treatments are very

> >poorly efficacious?

>

> Or that people don't follow them very closely. But yes, I agree that using

> something with real effectiveness is certainly more reasonable than using

> something with little effectiveness. Having said that, I was not under the

> impression up to this point that nystatin wasn't very effective.

I don't know-- the article I posted didn't say it was ineffective, it

just said that it was dramatically LESS effective than diflucan and

lamesil, and that the risk of liver toxicity for the latter two was so

remote that they are a major advantage over nystatin.

> >NDs can prescribe drugs? I didn't know that. I thought only MDs and

> >DOs could prescribe drugs.

>

> It's on a state by state basis. In Maine ND's can prescribe drugs.

Oh, ok. that's right. DOs and MDs, then, are the only two that can

prescribe in all 50 states.

> Yeh well, like I said on GFCFNN, first they took away my beer, then they

> took away my cream, kefir, yogurt, creme fraiche, Morbier and raw ice

> cream.

> Then they took away my beloved carbs, then my eggs, bacon and even mineral

> water. What's the point in living, honestly, if I can't enjoy eating

> anymore? <sob>

But most of that should be temporary. Maybe the anti-candida three

months, with a rigorous enough antifungal and probiotic plan, so long

as reintroduction of carbs is very moderate, I would think. Also,

after you deal with candida, maybe that might help your casein

intolerance. I would reintroduce it immediately, but I'd consider it

reasonable to expect at some point that you could tolerate it better.

> Well, at least my most obvious symptom is gone (feminine itch). Now I need

> to figure out if my bloating is a symptom of candida overgrowth or

> something

> else. You are fortunate in that you have pretty obvious symptoms. I'm not

> really sure how to gauge my symptom reduction (other than feminine itch)

> because my symptoms could be caused by food allergies or Hg toxicity, both

> of which I've felt I've had or have (and KNOW I have in the case of food

> allergies).

Yeah, big flakes of sometimes bloddy and pussy stuff stuck in my hair

is pretty obvious. Lucky me :-)

> BTW, what dose of oregano oil are you taking?

I'm taking 37.6 mg of OO, which contains a whopping 26.3 mg of

carvacrol, probably vastly more than most of the other OOs, 4 times

higher than the one next to it in the tincture section that cost the

same price for the same size bottle! I'm going to take this three

times a day, although it says to take it once or twice (between a

quarter of this dose per time and this dose). I got it this

afternoon, so I've taken it once, will take it this evening, and will

begin 3x/day tomorrow.

It's from Source Naturals, in tincture form.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

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[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Suzanne Noakes <snoakes@...> wrote:

> I'll share my dirty little secret....t'ain't NT. I open up a can,

> metabisulfites and all, and dump it into a jar with kefir grains. Two

> years into this, I'm happy with the results we're seeing.

I wouldn't care so much about the preservatives. I'd care about the

guar gum and carageenan. I wouldn't use it with a bad gut at all.

But I guess some people tolerate it better than others, and fermenting

it might help.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

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