Candida

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>>I got most of my info on nystatin from Dr. Shaw's book. I tried to re-read

>>it last night to remind myself what he said about his experience with it,

>>but I was exhausted and fell asleep before I could find the relevant info.

>>I will try again tonight.

>>

>>

>

>Ok. Suzanne's experience with nystatin seemed to support the authors

>of that article-- she said it was worthless.

>

>

>

And this is frustrating the *heck* out of me.....I read a book last year

and I'm blanking on the title and author. The gist of it was that

candida burrows below the intestinal lining. Nystatin is a *topically*

acting antifungal, while diflucan is interstitial. Which would explain

1) why people are complaining that nystatin doesn't work for systemic

yeast and 2) why nystatin was ineffective for my ductal thrush, while

being effective for diaper rash thrush and diflucan kicks butt all the

way around.

Now if I could just remember the title and author so I can give you a cite.

--s, growling her way to the library website and hoping there's a

history there

[Guest guest]

Nay, I do bear a brain!

_The Yeast Connection Handbook_, by Crook. It was a yellow-covered

paperback.....the first edition, I think.

--s

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Suzanne Noakes <snoakes@...> wrote:

> And this is frustrating the *heck* out of me.....I read a book last year

> and I'm blanking on the title and author. The gist of it was that

> candida burrows below the intestinal lining. Nystatin is a *topically*

> acting antifungal, while diflucan is interstitial. Which would explain

> 1) why people are complaining that nystatin doesn't work for systemic

> yeast and 2) why nystatin was ineffective for my ductal thrush, while

> being effective for diaper rash thrush and diflucan kicks butt all the

> way around.

Interesting. I wonder about how the " natural " antifungals work in this respect.

Another thing, I suspect, is that nystatin does not leave the

digestive tract-- which is great for guaranteeing no liver toxicity,

but probably makes it impossible to treat systemic infections. If the

infection is in the mammary ducts, and the nystatin never leaves the

intestines, how on earth is it supposed to kill any candida in the

mammary ducts?

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

>On 8/30/05, Suzanne Noakes <snoakes@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>>And this is frustrating the *heck* out of me.....I read a book last year

>>and I'm blanking on the title and author. The gist of it was that

>>candida burrows below the intestinal lining. Nystatin is a *topically*

>>acting antifungal, while diflucan is interstitial. Which would explain

>>1) why people are complaining that nystatin doesn't work for systemic

>>yeast and 2) why nystatin was ineffective for my ductal thrush, while

>>being effective for diaper rash thrush and diflucan kicks butt all the

>>way around.

>>

>>

>

>Interesting. I wonder about how the " natural " antifungals work in this

respect.

>

>

Good question.

>Another thing, I suspect, is that nystatin does not leave the

>digestive tract-- which is great for guaranteeing no liver toxicity,

>but probably makes it impossible to treat systemic infections.

>

That's a good point.

>If the

>infection is in the mammary ducts, and the nystatin never leaves the

>intestines, how on earth is it supposed to kill any candida in the

>mammary ducts?

>

>

>

Oops. My bad....I should have clarified that the nystatin they gave me

was cream for topical treatment. Not much good for the stuff *inside*

the ducts, eh? OTOH, for my kidlets with thrush, the liquid nystatin

also did bupkus. So with at least 6 rounds of nystatin around the

family, we're 0 out of 6. I wouldn't want to place my life on such

odds, eh?

--s, who was always irritated that the doctors insist that we waste

money on a useless medication before rxing the one I asked for in the

first place and that I *knew* would work and was finally terminally (as

in I fired him!) irritated at the family doctor who wouldn't rx anything

at all!

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Months earlier, I don't know why I was stupid enough to drink

>weight-gaining drinks when I was in a jam for a post-workout snack

>that provided 1100 calories of maltodextrin and some high fructose

>corn syrup, but that probably induced the sugar cravings.

Maltodextrin is particularly nasty, as the gut's ability to break it down

is relatively minimal, meaning undesirable organisms can feast on it.

-

[Guest guest]

On 8/30/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Maltodextrin is particularly nasty, as the gut's ability to break it down

> is relatively minimal, meaning undesirable organisms can feast on it.

You've said that before, but everything I've read indicates that it is

one of the most easily broken down carbs, such that it begins breaking

down in the stomach. This makes much more sense to me as well, since

all it is is a long chain of glucose monomers. I don't see how the

body can possess the ability to break down all kinds of starches and

polysacharides without the ability to separate two molecules of

glucose!

Either way, 1100 calories of carbs in one drink over 15 minutes has to

be bad for the gut whether it breaks down fast or slow.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

One technical note I've realized from reading-- candida, in its

virulent, systemic infectious form, is not a yeast. It is a mold.

One of the main factors determining the virulence of candida is its

morphing from yeast-form to hyphal-form. The yeast form is

single-celled and round. Hyphae are filamentous structures that make

up the multi-celled mycelia, which are the growth zones of molds.

Molds and yeasts are both fungi, but molds are not yeasts, and yeasts

are not molds.

The formation of hyphae does not occur as a transition within one

generation. It occurs by a yeast reproducing with a resultant mold

offspring, apparently.

There is now a third, distinct morphology being classified as

" psuedo-hyphae, " but I don't know what that is, and I couldn't get

access to the full-text of the review that advocated this

classification.

Interestingly, I just started reading a review on candida from last

year that says that candida is the fourth most common blood infection,

and the attributed mortality rate of systemic candida infection is

35%!!!!

I will post more details and a link when I finish reading it.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

I found an interesting review on candida that you can read the

full-text of for free:

http://www.jmii.org/content/abstracts/v36n4p223.php

On page 4 it has pictures showing the transformation from yeast form

to hyphal form. Crazy! The hyphae are like hundreds of times bigger

than the yeast cells.

Here are some interesting facts from the review:

Candida is the fourth most common blood infection in the United

States. 70% of women experience vaginal candida infection, and 20%

experience recurring vaginal infection. The mortality rate

attributable to systemic candidiasis is 35%! Non-albicans candida

becoming more common, but Candida albicans still most common fungal

infection.

First step-- adhesion to host cells. Can also adhere to medical

devices and create a biofilm.

Candida switches from yeast to hyphal form. Initial projections at

this stage are " germ tubes, " which form stable complexes to human

buccal epithelial cells (HBEC).

Disruption of INT1 gene, the expression of which is involved in

switching to filamentous growth, reduces adhesion to human epithelial

cells by 40%.

Candida possesses 9 known proteinases that are involved in degrading

important human proteins during tissue invasion. 1,2, and 3 expressed

in yeast, 4, 5, and 6 expressed in transition to hypha, 9 expressed in

later growth phases. 7 only found in vitro, and 8 only under very

specific conditions. 2, 4, 5 and 6 expressed in asymptomatic

carriers, 1 and 3 in oral candidiasis but not carriers, 1, 3, 6, and 8

in oral and skin infections but not vaginal.

In human epidermis, 1 and 2 expressed in early invasion, 8 expressed

for extensive penetration, and 6 for extensive hyphal growth.

This would seem to indicate that hyphal formation is a result of, not

a cause of, systemic candida infection, I think, or at least that

early invasion involves the yeast form.

Page 4 of 6, pictures showing transformation from yeast to hyphal form.

Evidence suggests that only strains that are capable of producing BOTH

yeast and filamentous forms are capable of penetrating vital organs

and proliferating sufficiently to kill the host.

Phenotypic switching-- the different phenotypes are " smooth, rough,

star, stippled, hat, irregular wrinkle, and fuzzy " ! Different

phenotypes can switch to others, though it's unknown what role

phenotypic switching plays in virulence.

That's it...

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

> I found an interesting review on candida that you can read the

> full-text of for free:

>

> http://www.jmii.org/content/abstracts/v36n4p223.php

>

> On page 4 it has pictures showing the transformation from yeast form

> to hyphal form. Crazy! The hyphae are like hundreds of times bigger

> than the yeast cells.

Now THAT was fascinating!

I got about a thousand posts behind and had to delete them all over the past

couple of weeks so I've missed most of the Candida discussion.

I just recently had a very thorough stool test done that showed something I

thought was interesting. My bacterial gut flora looked very good. There

were a couple of " bad " strains in small amounts but there was an abundance

of good bacteria. At the same time I had a pretty strong (3+, whatever that

means) case of Candida overgrowth. This test was taken after 5 months of

eating a fair amount of floury/starchy food and right before I went gluten

free.

My current regimen is gluten free, casein free (I had to give up the kefir)

modified Warrior Dietish (a little more breakfast and lunch food than I

think is recommended) with a smattering of the Mastering Leptin concepts

thrown in for good measure. After almost 4 years of trying to get my health

straightened out I FEEL GOOD. In the 12 weeks I've been doing this I've

maintained my body weight within about 3 pounds of where I started and I've

lost substantial amounts of body fat.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> Finally-- here's the weird thing-- the clarkia website suggests

using

> it for 2 weeks, then stopping for a week, and alternating like that

> until you've had 8 weeks of active use over a period of 11 weeks

> total. How does that fit in with stopping and starting being bad,

and

> what on earth is the logic of it?

Doug Kaufmann also suggests rotating several different antifungals.

I think the idea is to keep them off-balance, as it were, so they

keep getting hit by something a bit different every so often. I

think it's supposed to prevent their becoming resistant to the

antifungals.

>

> > > From Googling, it appears undecylenic acid is only available in

> > >topical form, though I read an article that talked about using it

> > >internally. Where is the internal form available?

> >

Probably castor oil. Undecylenic acid occurs naturally in sweat, but

they refine it from castor oil for use as a supplement.

BTW, I was talking with someone today about using cod liver oil to

fight their allergies. She mentioned that her grandmother had fed

her mom and her siblings both cod liver oil and castor oil as they

were growing up. They " never got sick. " She said they got 1

teaspoon of cod liver oil daily, and the castor oil weekly.

> Hmm. Ok. I've never used grapefruit seed extract, but from what I

> recall, my friend Wayne (the guy who introduced me to raw milk when

I

> worked under him at the UMass dining hall) had said that it made his

> eczema go away.

UMass? Ahhh. I've been there twice. Both times in early October!

What a great time to be in New England!

[Guest guest]

> Finally-- here's the weird thing-- the clarkia website suggests

using

> it for 2 weeks, then stopping for a week, and alternating like that

> until you've had 8 weeks of active use over a period of 11 weeks

> total. How does that fit in with stopping and starting being bad,

and

> what on earth is the logic of it?

Doug Kaufmann also suggests rotating several different antifungals.

I think the idea is to keep them off-balance, as it were, so they

keep getting hit by something a bit different every so often. I

think it's supposed to prevent their becoming resistant to the

antifungals.

>

> > > From Googling, it appears undecylenic acid is only available in

> > >topical form, though I read an article that talked about using it

> > >internally. Where is the internal form available?

> >

Probably castor oil. Undecylenic acid occurs naturally in sweat, but

they refine it from castor oil for use as a supplement.

BTW, I was talking with someone today about using cod liver oil to

fight their allergies. She mentioned that her grandmother had fed

her mom and her siblings both cod liver oil and castor oil as they

were growing up. They " never got sick. " She said they got 1

teaspoon of cod liver oil daily, and the castor oil weekly.

> Hmm. Ok. I've never used grapefruit seed extract, but from what I

> recall, my friend Wayne (the guy who introduced me to raw milk when

I

> worked under him at the UMass dining hall) had said that it made his

> eczema go away.

UMass? Ahhh. I've been there twice. Both times in early October!

What a great time to be in New England!

[Guest guest]

> Since my fast, I've been

> craving bitters like chocolate and coffee, red wine, and oregano. I

> don't know about antifungal, but I know coffee is toxic to various

> pathogenic bacteria,

Coffee (caffeine) is antifungal, too. I saw a good article about

that recently, and sent it to some folks.

I had gotten myself off coffee a few months ago, but noticed the BMs

were floating more often than not. The only change had been

eliminating coffee. So I added back the coffee. Back to sinkers.

;-)

I wonder how your skin conditions would behave if you also applied

castor oil or other antifungals to them topically? I'm sure I made

some skin tags shrink by applying castor oil. It's kind of messy, so

I haven't kept at it.

OH! I saw the most interesting article yesterday about how walking

in old growth forest, full of monoterpenes, has been found to reduce

the blood sugar of diabetics from over 300 to 108. (I don't know how

much of that comes from exercising, and how much from breathing the

aroma from an old growth forest, but isn't it interesting?)

It reminds me of the situation with little Clara in the

book " Heidi " . When she lived in furt, she was an invalid, and

said she didn't like to eat. But when she was sent to live with

Heidi in the mountains with her grandfather, living off raw goat's

milk, cheese, and rough rye bread, and spending time in the sun, she

got stronger and even was able to walk.

Kaufmann makes the point that diabetes has a fungal etiology, and I

can see where deep breathing of antifungal " stuff " such as present in

old growth forest, would help. The Japanese have a name for

this " forest walking " , and it's a treatment over there for diabetes.

Something else I saw said that research showed that people living

in " concrete jungles " tend to be more obese (*because* they're

diabetic?) than people living elsewhere.

While I'm rambling about fascinating articles, I must mention that

the April 2004 Newfarm.org archive has an article about how Gil

Carandang (sp?) teaches people to capture " beneficial indigenous

microorganisms " from areas with lush wild growth and culture them for

later application to their gardens and crops. It makes them produce

more with reduced inputs, and makes them healthier, less prone to

spoil. They do mention lactobacillus as being one of the species

that is captured. ISN'T THAT FASCINATING, TOO?!

You don't suppose old growth forests are also putting out " beneficial

indigenous microorganisms " which are helpful for fighting fungal

infections in people, animals, and plants?

[Guest guest]

On 9/1/05, <toyotaokiec@...> wrote:

> Coffee (caffeine) is antifungal, too. I saw a good article about

> that recently, and sent it to some folks.

Could you post it to the list? By the way, red wine (reversatrol)

appears NOT to be effective against candida, although it is effective

against some fungi.

> I had gotten myself off coffee a few months ago, but noticed the BMs

> were floating more often than not. The only change had been

> eliminating coffee. So I added back the coffee. Back to sinkers.

>

> ;-)

Heh... interesting. Coffee beyond a certain dosage will give me

diarrhea! In very mild doses it seems to induce a healthy BM though.

> I wonder how your skin conditions would behave if you also applied

> castor oil or other antifungals to them topically? I'm sure I made

> some skin tags shrink by applying castor oil. It's kind of messy, so

> I haven't kept at it.

I don't know but the psoriasis isn't visible and the eczema isn't too

bad, so right now I'm not applying anything topcially to anything,

because I want to use those symptoms as a guage to how my intestines

are doing. But I wouldn't use castor oil I don't think, I'd just get

a topical undecylenic acid?

> OH! I saw the most interesting article yesterday about how walking

> in old growth forest, full of monoterpenes, has been found to reduce

> the blood sugar of diabetics from over 300 to 108. (I don't know how

> much of that comes from exercising, and how much from breathing the

> aroma from an old growth forest, but isn't it interesting?)

Yeah, could you sent it to me? I'll put in a sentence about it on my

isoprene page. (http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Isoprene.html)

I have a small section on isoprenes made in other species, and the

terpenoids are isoprenoids, as far as I understand.

> It reminds me of the situation with little Clara in the

> book " Heidi " . When she lived in furt, she was an invalid, and

> said she didn't like to eat. But when she was sent to live with

> Heidi in the mountains with her grandfather, living off raw goat's

> milk, cheese, and rough rye bread, and spending time in the sun, she

> got stronger and even was able to walk.

Hmm. I have a copy of that book but it's been so long since I read it

(I'm 23, so like, 20 years? lol! No, more like 17) that I don't

really remember that stuff. Actually, now I'm wondering whether that

was the book I read, or whether there as a kids' version? I remember

there being a movie too.

Hmm, so she went with Heidi and stopped eating wheat, huh? ;-)

> Kaufmann makes the point that diabetes has a fungal etiology, and I

> can see where deep breathing of antifungal " stuff " such as present in

> old growth forest, would help. The Japanese have a name for

> this " forest walking " , and it's a treatment over there for diabetes.

Interesting. I think they also have a treatment for psoriasis where

some species of fish will eat your psoriasis. That's amazing how they

utilize nature for treatments that don't involve *consuming* anything.

> Something else I saw said that research showed that people living

> in " concrete jungles " tend to be more obese (*because* they're

> diabetic?) than people living elsewhere.

Wasn't that a Bob Marley song? What's that, a city?

> While I'm rambling about fascinating articles, I must mention that

> the April 2004 Newfarm.org archive has an article about how Gil

> Carandang (sp?) teaches people to capture " beneficial indigenous

> microorganisms " from areas with lush wild growth and culture them for

> later application to their gardens and crops. It makes them produce

> more with reduced inputs, and makes them healthier, less prone to

> spoil. They do mention lactobacillus as being one of the species

> that is captured. ISN'T THAT FASCINATING, TOO?!

>

> You don't suppose old growth forests are also putting out " beneficial

> indigenous microorganisms " which are helpful for fighting fungal

> infections in people, animals, and plants?

Hmm, yes, I suppose anywhere where things are rich and thriving has

lots of things missing where things aren't.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>

>One technical note I've realized from reading-- candida, in its

>virulent, systemic infectious form, is not a yeast. It is a mold.

>

>One of the main factors determining the virulence of candida is its

>morphing from yeast-form to hyphal-form. The yeast form is

>single-celled and round. Hyphae are filamentous structures that make

>up the multi-celled mycelia, which are the growth zones of molds.

Dr. Shaw mentions an additional form, one without a cell wall. I think this

is the single cell form.

>

>Interestingly, I just started reading a review on candida from last

>year that says that candida is the fourth most common blood infection,

>and the attributed mortality rate of systemic candida infection is

>35%!!!!

I'm still not clear on whether most candida sufferers have a *systemic*

infection or not. Dr. Shaw also mentions how dangerous systemic infections

are and says something like people with this advanced form often have fevers

and are very ill, etc. But I don't get that sense from most folks who talk

about their own candidiasis. They often have stuff like fatigue, bloat, nail

fungus, etc. But nothing that sounds like they need to run to an emergency

room. I would guess there are different degrees of systemic infections...

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 8/30/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> I find it varies by brand. I don't mind the taste of Oreganol, but Wild

>> Oats

>> braind OO tastes bizarre to me, and seems much more concentrated than

>> Oreganol. Burns my tongue.

>

>Do you take it alone??? I would think it would be worthless if you

>could tolerate it directly on your tongue! I mixe mine extremely

>diluted in water-- about 4 drops to 4 oz, and it burns mildly.

I have yet to see an OO product that is not already diluted - usually in

olive oil. I cannot take the Wild Oats brand alone - too caustic, but I can

take the Oreganol alone. It's recommended to put several drops under the

tongue. Yet, Oreganol has been very effective for me in the past, so I

definitely wouldn't call it worthless.

I'm probably overdoing it though cuz I'm taking 10 drops at a time rather

than the recommended 4. I need to find the time to post over on the

candidiasis list to get some dosing recommendations.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 8/30/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>> >> I think that last part is incorrect. I think they can colonize whether

>> or

>> >> not candida is overgrown, but I'm not certain they can get RID of the

>> >> invasive candida that digs into the mucosal lining of the

>> >intestinal tract.

>> >

>> >Obviously that can't colonize that area if they can't get rid of the

>> >candida. What would they do, colonize on top of the candida?

>>

>> I'm not clear on your meaning? Perhaps we are not thinking of

>colonization

>> in the same way? I understand it to mean setting up a colony of bacteria

>> (or

>> whathaveyou) in the digestive tract. Further, it is my understanding that

>> beneficial bacteria can colonize the digestive tract regardless

>of whether

>> yeasts are present.

>

>That doesn't make sense. The colonization involves putting roots into

>the intestine, and requires bare surface area. Again, obviously the

>mere *presence* of fungi, which is normal and healthy, will not

>inhibit bacteria from taking up their own spot, but they can only do

>this to the extent that there is room left.

I agree.

The greater the extent of

>the fungal overgrowth, the less the extent that bacteria or other

>yeasts could implant. The whole point of taking the probiotics is to

>crowd out the yeast. But they can't crowd out the yeast, because the

>yeast is there first, crowding out the probiotics. So the yeast has

>to be killed and removed, and then the probiotics have to fill in the

>gap.

OK, well I think you are thinking the yeast are taking up every iota of

space and I'm thinking they are not. Obviously two things can't occupy the

same space at the same time. Perhaps we are thinking of the overgrowth as

different degrees. I assume the candida, in most cases, is not occupying all

available space, but I really have no idea. Have you come across anything

that suggests this other than the article you referenced earlier (I didn't

see if it had any citations)? However, I do agree that it makes sense to use

anti-fungals to knock out the candida as much as possible so there is more

room for beneficial bacteria to implant. Having said that, I'm under the

impression that very few commercial probiotics actually implant. Which is

why they need to be taken indefinitely. Have you come across any

discussions/studies on this?

>

>Of course, some transient bacteria might secrete anti-fungal

>compounds, but they aren't going to just come in, uproot the fungi,

>and implant themselves.

This is something I'm not clear on. I've read that some bacteria do have

direct anti-fungal actions, IIRC, perhaps by changing the pH (as claimed by

Threelac) or perhaps by some other mechanism?

>

>> I got most of my info on nystatin from Dr. Shaw's book. I tried

>to re-read

>> it last night to remind myself what he said about his experience with it,

>> but I was exhausted and fell asleep before I could find the

>relevant info.

>> I will try again tonight.

>

>Ok. Suzanne's experience with nystatin seemed to support the authors

>of that article-- she said it was worthless.

I think that's probably only the case if one has a systemic infection. It

seems to work to some degree for autistic kids, at least while they are on

it. Some regress when going off it.

>> Well, at least my most obvious symptom is gone (feminine itch).

>Now I need

>> to figure out if my bloating is a symptom of candida overgrowth or

>> something

>> else. You are fortunate in that you have pretty obvious symptoms. I'm not

>> really sure how to gauge my symptom reduction (other than feminine itch)

>> because my symptoms could be caused by food allergies or Hg

>toxicity, both

>> of which I've felt I've had or have (and KNOW I have in the case of food

>> allergies).

>

>Yeah, big flakes of sometimes bloddy and pussy stuff stuck in my hair

>is pretty obvious. Lucky me :-)

What I meant is that you are lucky that you have obvious signs of *systemic*

infection, which I do not. External feminine itch is not indicative of

systemic candidiasis, but rather superficial. It's due to the proximitiy of

the anus and the female genitalia. My itch is strictly external. I recall

reading something recently to the effect that less healthy people (probably

several generations into SAD) have less space between the anus and

genetalia. I think it was in an article in the latest WT? In any case,

gynocologists these days tell women to always wipe from front to back for

this very reason (not spreading feces to the vaginal area).

Having said that, I do have other symptoms that *could* be due to a systemic

yeast infection, but are also commonly due to food allergies, environmental

mold, etc. So it's harder for me to guage my progress than it is for someone

with clearer systemic fungal issues.

>

>> BTW, what dose of oregano oil are you taking?

>

>I'm taking 37.6 mg of OO, which contains a whopping 26.3 mg of

>carvacrol, probably vastly more than most of the other OOs,

OK, I've been taking a minimum of about 65 mgs carvacrol 3x/day. I need to

get a better idea of dosing other than what's on the bottle. The bottle

recommends the dose you're taking.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Suzanne Noakes

>

>

>Nay, I do bear a brain!

>

>_The Yeast Connection Handbook_, by Crook. It was a

>yellow-covered paperback.....the first edition, I think.

>

>--s

I have the 2001 version of this. Some interesting stuff in there, although

lots of the diet/lifestyle stuff is not news to an NT'er.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>I ran into an article on kellymom.com that cited some literature on

>oil of oregano, one of which speculated it could cause liver toxicity

>at high doses, though I'm not sure what the evidence is.

I think all these anti-yeast/fungal things are probably pretty hard on the

liver. Unless any of them just remain in the GI tract like nystatin? I'm

taking extra liver support during this protocol for that reason.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Suzanne Noakes

>>>>

>>>The ducts found in breast tissue. Quite unfun.

>>>

>>>

>>

>>Oh! I'd never heard of this before. How did you know candida caused it?

>>

>>

>>

>>

>My HCP diagnosed it and rxed nystatin--which is how I know it sucks.

>I've had it several times in the intervening years and diflucan never

>failed to knock it out. I did have quite a heated online argument with

>a pediatrician as to this possibility.

Suzanne,

I'm way behind on posts so forgive me if you alredy mentioned this (I think

you did?) but the nystatin was applied topically, right? Otherwise it would

NOT be effective against systemic candida since it remains in the GI tract.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

On 9/2/05, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> I'm probably overdoing it though cuz I'm taking 10 drops at a time rather

> than the recommended 4. I need to find the time to post over on the

> candidiasis list to get some dosing recommendations.

If that's giving you over 65 mg of carvacrol, then you're stuff is as

concentrated as mine (about the same). I find that mine burns when I

dilute it in a major amount of water, and usually have to chase it

down with a tablespoon of EVOO (it's fat-soluble, so water doesn't

help as much) and then water. I'm just really surprised someone could

tolerate that directly under the tongue!

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Suze Fisher wrote:

>I'm way behind on posts so forgive me if you alredy mentioned this (I think

>you did?) but the nystatin was applied topically, right?

>

Yes. And it was ineffective there, as well. The only topical

application of nystatin to yeast that I've seen work is on rashy diaper

butts.

>Otherwise it would

>NOT be effective against systemic candida since it remains in the GI tract.

>

The only rx antifungal that I've found effective, ime, is diflucan. It

has kicked a couple of rounds of ductal thrush in me and with two of my

children. The younger two were subject to in utero doses of abx because

of Group B strep. Both of them came out quickly demonstrating yeast

infections. Dunno if one could call it " systemic, " but the middle one

had oral thrush and the younger had *wicked* diaper rash. Nystatin

would knock out the surface yeast, but it didn't disappear in either

baby until we had a good strong round of diflucan.

If you can talk a HCP into rxing anything for you, go for the diflucan.

--s

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>In everyone? I read that liver toxicity is rare. I didn't look too

>far into it though.

I'm not positive, but when my mom was erroneously put on it for a skin

infection that turned out to be bacterial rather than fungal, the doctor

made a huge deal of warning her off alcohol and all the other usual

suspects because of the damage lamisil would do, and her liver enzymes were

checked very frequently. I admit I haven't looked into it further myself.

>BUT, if the clarkia ingredients have slightly different or very

>different (I have no idea) functions than the other antifungals I'm

>using, does that mean I should definitely restart it, so I don't do

>damage by starting and stopping it?

Perhaps, but you have to make that decision in context of your whole

program. The danger is the same as with antibiotics -- if you don't take

them (or whatever) for long enough to wipe out enough organisms, they'll

come back in more resistant forms.

>Finally-- here's the weird thing-- the clarkia website suggests using

>it for 2 weeks, then stopping for a week, and alternating like that

>until you've had 8 weeks of active use over a period of 11 weeks

>total. How does that fit in with stopping and starting being bad, and

>what on earth is the logic of it?

AFAIK, that's because the ingredients in clarkia can be hard on the

body. It's a balancing act, just like everything else.

>Thanks, I'll order it.

I gather you got yours before I got mine. Have you noticed any kind of

results from it?

>I suspect that an effective anti-candida diet, especially if

>the infection is systemic, must be low in both protein and carb, and

>primarily fat.

Perhaps, but I'd really like to find some hard information on just how much

gluconeogenesis actually occurs under various conditions.

(Off on a tangent, it turns out glycosylation can get dramatically out of

hand. Levels of HbA1c, a type of glycosylated hemoglobin, are dramatically

higher in diabetics. According to s, though I

haven't checked this out, every percentage increase in HbA1c increases your

risk of heart disease, IIRC, 20 times.)

>Do you think it would be better to use LGB-AP, or clarkia? How

>important are the cloves versus the other ingredients.

I really don't know. I don't know much about some of the other ingredients

in Schulze's formulas, but the clove extract is supposed to be pretty

important. Lab-wise, though, it's anyone's guess.

>Thanks for the info.

Hey, we digestive cripples have to stick together. <g>

-

[Guest guest]

On 9/6/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> I gather you got yours [Pro-Seed Triple Yeast-Defense with undecylenate]

before I >got mine. Have you noticed any kind of

> results from it?

Well, I'm of course doing a million other things, but starting soon

after the first time I took it, I developed conjunctivitis in my right

eye, which I believe to be a die-off symptom, because this was one of

my most prominent symptoms that started at the same time as my eczema.

I started taking the IF#2 again, to absorb toxins and reduce die-off

symptoms, and the eye thing went away.

> >I suspect that an effective anti-candida diet, especially if

> >the infection is systemic, must be low in both protein and carb, and

> >primarily fat.

>

> Perhaps, but I'd really like to find some hard information on just how much

> gluconeogenesis actually occurs under various conditions.

I'm not sure about gluconeogenesis, but the ketone concentration is

dramatically higher, and I would assume that ketogenicity would

inhibit glucogenesis.

> (Off on a tangent, it turns out glycosylation can get dramatically out of

> hand. Levels of HbA1c, a type of glycosylated hemoglobin, are dramatically

> higher in diabetics. According to s, though I

> haven't checked this out, every percentage increase in HbA1c increases your

> risk of heart disease, IIRC, 20 times.)

What, under a ketogenic diet? Can we generalize from diabetes to a

ketogenic diet?

> Hey, we digestive cripples have to stick together. <g>

Yup <g>

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Chris-

>Well, I'm of course doing a million other things, but starting soon

>after the first time I took it, I developed conjunctivitis in my right

>eye, which I believe to be a die-off symptom, because this was one of

>my most prominent symptoms that started at the same time as my eczema.

Hmm. I just took my first about half an hour before lunch today, so I

guess I'll watch out for nasty problems from the past resurfacing.

>What, under a ketogenic diet? Can we generalize from diabetes to a

>ketogenic diet?

No, sorry, I meant it literally when I said I was going off on a

tangent. The analogy I was drawing relies on perceiving undesirable

gluconeogenesis as a physiological dysfunction, just like excess

glycosylation of hemoglobin evidently is. (What I don't know is whether

excess HbA1c is just a marker or also has direct effects of its own. I'd

have to look into that further, and I'm not sure whether anyone knows

yet.) Really I was just referring back to the earlier discussion about

glycation and glycosylation.

-

[Guest guest]

On 9/6/05, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Really I was just referring back to the earlier discussion about

> glycation and glycosylation.

Oh. Well in that case someone asked before whether there were

desirable forms of glycation and I forgot to answer that glycation is

an incredibly important universal process that occurs in every cell.

The difference is that the important glycation occurs enzymatically,

whereas my understanding is that non-enzymatic glycation is harmful.

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com