Re:Jeff :My portable A/C

[Guest guest]

Jill,

The mold created by depressurizing your space while cooling it would

not be inside of the air conditioner,

it would be inside of your walls wherever humid outdoor air found a

path in, and then hit a surface that was below the dew point.

So it would not be visible to you unless you were renovating.. Do you

have visible floor or carpets? If you have a depressurizing portable

air conditioner in a room that has shiny floors, you can often see it

around the door.

Then, it will dry when you turn the AC off.. But - if it is carpeted,

and you close the door to that room, the warm humid air coming under

the door will typically condense on the floor right under the door,

(which might be under a carpet, and then - expect mold!)

[Guest guest]

I have oak floors throughout the apt no carpet no rugs.

Having done a lot more reading lately and trying to figure out WHAT

the heck is the mold source in the 2nd bedroom (I have kept the window

open, air filter on 24/7, and door closed, and created negative

pressure in that room 24/7 by having Holmes window fans in the other

rooms as mentioned previously) I have concluded the wall/cavity on the

east wall of that bedroom under the windows, where I found dry rot in

the bookshelves I removed (probably from years before, before the

brick was repointed, and when they had old french windows here...and

thus there was ample chance for water intrusion)...I have concluded

that this wall itself and its cavity, not leaks as there are none as I

moisture tested...is the source of some mold/bacteria problem that is

ongoing. Even so I " m thinking of buying one of those infrared moisture

testers to really try and figure out what is the problem with that room.

Basically I'm happy with fans unless it gets super hot and humid. I

don't feel a/c is healthy generally at least not for me and I only use

it when necessary. That could be 10-15 days the whole summer, ie June

to mid Sept. I like my portable except not strong enough longterm but

fine for this summer. I'm not worried about a tiny amount of negative

pressure in that room with the door closed on a very occasional basis.

My whole apt is not contaminated with mold anyway. I think you may

excessively worried about one hose vs two hose, honestly. I chose one

hose because of ease of use and because I read that the precise

conditions I use it for (high heat and humidity) and those are the

only conditions I use it for, one hose works better, for reasons

explained. I did not feel worse in the room in any way when I was

using it.

I'm getting more tuned in to mold hits as well. Like the crockpot that

came in a moldy box and I got rid of the box, and I even gave my bf

the crockpot for now to let him use it as I figure a few uses with

super hot temps will destroy any spores if there are any. I don't feel

this a/c in any way is increasing mold issues in my apt, esp. compared

to window units which I basically cannot stand because of their mold

issues. And me personally, unless I had May's knowledge and a

lot of $, would never use central a/c. I have been doing some looking

at homes and there was one beautiful old n where she updated

with central a/c AND had glade plug-ins. A nightmare for an MCS/mold

person. Anyway central a/c is very expensive and wasteful for the

environment imo.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Jill,

>

> The mold created by depressurizing your space while cooling it would

> not be inside of the air conditioner,

> it would be inside of your walls wherever humid outdoor air found a

> path in, and then hit a surface that was below the dew point.

>

> So it would not be visible to you unless you were renovating.. Do you

> have visible floor or carpets? If you have a depressurizing portable

> air conditioner in a room that has shiny floors, you can often see it

> around the door.

>

> Then, it will dry when you turn the AC off.. But - if it is carpeted,

> and you close the door to that room, the warm humid air coming under

> the door will typically condense on the floor right under the door,

> (which might be under a carpet, and then - expect mold!)

>

[Guest guest]

Is 7k btu's what you got? There is a Sharpe portable at Home Depot for

449.00 10k btu's, labeled as 'library quiet'. It's a single hose. I

haven't seen any double hose models sold at local hardware stores. I'd

have to order it online.

>

> I honestly find my portable a/c with one hose fine except that

> 1) It's too noisy (ie for sleeping at night, annoying)

> 2) I should've gotten more BTU as my master bedroom is high ceilings

> and fairly large. My friend has the same Amana but 12000 btu not

[Guest guest]

So, you think the window a/c, even with filter added to keep coils

clean would be molded quickly? That's the last thing I need! I see

some for just 100 and I only need help now, July/August, as I like it

about 79-80 degrees if humidity is low or I can dehumidify it down.

[Guest guest]

Yes in retrospect not really strong enough. It does take out all the

humidity and cool the room to about 80 on a hot mid 90's humid day. My

bedroom is too large and ceilings too high. Because of MCS I got a

mildly used one (one summer). Again I can emphasize it blows really

CLEAN air, NO mold. I would say the 10,000 would be a good choice and

I've heard the SHARP are very quiet.

[Guest guest]

I can only tell you my experience. They get too moldy for me. And I

don't want to buy one every year. Also, I don't like the hassle of

installing them and how much window space they take up. I know cost is

an issue, though. If you drill holes carefully in the bottom and tilt

it down slightly I would think you'd be safe for the rest of the summer.

>

> So, you think the window a/c, even with filter added to keep coils

> clean would be molded quickly? That's the last thing I need! I see

> some for just 100 and I only need help now, July/August, as I like it

> about 79-80 degrees if humidity is low or I can dehumidify it down.

>

[Guest guest]

Here is interesting info on the dual hose a/c units. It says that the

second hose cannot be used in temperatures over 95 and humidity over

80%, which is a big problem I would think since humidity can fluctuate

quickly outside. I can't see how someone could even follow those

instructions. Certainly you can predict temperatures of over 95 but

not humidity over 80%. It could be 50% humidity during the day and

then in the evening dip down to 80% while a/c is still on.

Some models said you can take second hose off and use with one hose.

Perhaps all of them can be used that way because if not you'd have no

a/c just when you need it the most. If some cannot be used with a

single hose, then it could only be helpful as a secondary a/c that

ODDLY enough can't be used when it's very hot and humid!!

http://tinyurl.com/69bzzc

[Guest guest]

Do you think that all window a/c machines should get extra holes

drilled in the bottom of them?

>

> I can only tell you my experience. They get too moldy for me. And I

> don't want to buy one every year. Also, I don't like the hassle of

> installing them and how much window space they take up. I know cost is

> an issue, though. If you drill holes carefully in the bottom and tilt

> it down slightly I would think you'd be safe for the rest of the

summer.

>

[Guest guest]

I found this window a/c unit that has an electrostatic filter..wow,

someone concerned about keeping them clean...and a coating on coils to

keep mold and corrosion down it says:

http://tinyurl.com/56ark6

Haier 10,000 BTU Energy Star window a/c

[Guest guest]

Well, again, I'm just a layperson. However, I noticed that window

a/c's do not drain well. They can quickly accumulate water in just a

few hours. Many of them, if set at a certain temp, go off and on and

off and on in terms of the cooling mechanism. All that seems to me to

be a veritable recipe for mold. So I would carefully drill a few

holes. In the last one we used a very sharp " exacto " type knife and

actually cut a small triangle. Even so, when I put that a/c in my

window this year, I got congested in just a few hours. So, I threw it

out. And got my portable. And honestly, for instance, today with my

Holmes window fan and my desk fan, its' 84 and sunny right now and I " m

perfectly comfortable. I only hate it in the 90's with high humidity,

then I need an a/c.

>

> Do you think that all window a/c machines should get extra holes

> drilled in the bottom of them?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jill,

When you are using air conditioning in hot, humid conditions you have

to be careful because you can cause condensation wherever warm, humid

outddor air meets cold surfaces..

For that reason, creating negative pressure can cause BIG problems..

If you can't avoid depressurizing a space for some reason.. (inherent

stack effect in apartment buildings, for example) air sealing to

prevent humid air condensing in walls (from both outside and inside)

is the ONLY way to prevent condensation inside of the walls..

Whenever water does get into a wall, it needs to be able to dry.. If

it can dry out - frequently - between wettings, then, no problem.. If

it can't dry, then, you get mold..

Check out the web site of Building Science Consulting..

http://www.buildingscience.com and look up the issues for various

climate zones..

New York is right on the border of the " Mixed Humid " and " Cold " zones,

but in the summer, its more like the South in many respects..the stuff

they have written about humid outdoor air and cold indoor air

definitely applies..

I wish that I wasn't so negative about your one tube air conditioner..

(which you obviously like) Maybe its fine in your situation..

But be careful that you are not causing hidden condensation somewhere..

Its quite possible with machines like that.

[Guest guest]

10 or 15 days !? What do you do the other three or four months? Swelter?

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:24 PM, jill1313 <jenbooks13@...> wrote:

> I will use it only 10-15 days the whole summer!

The reason I think its important is that its obvious to me that the

combination of cooling during humid weather and depressurization is a

mold nightmare waiting to happen for some people..in some situations..

A few years ago i ws living in a building like that and I learned that

we had to avoid depressurization AT ALL COSTS.. We actually had to

slightly pressurize our space and maintain that pressure 24/7.

If someone who is living in a old building with a serious mold

problem, has mold inside of the walls, doing any kind of

depressurization is the worst thing they can do.. old buildings can

be riddled with holes and inside of those walls, there is mold.. Lots

of mold.

Some of the people who are on this list are living in public housing

and are really sick, because the plenums that was delivering air into

their apartments from the central AC are utterly contaminated with

mold. I remember a person who had one of these one tube air

conditioners and - it took a while but IMO, she she eventually did

understand that by running the AC, she was actually drawing the

contaminated air into her apartment. She had to block up all the

plenums and slightly pressurize her apartment to get peace. (They were

trying to drive the tenants out.)

[Guest guest]

Do you have any weird blue stains anywhere on your oak floors?

[Guest guest]

Does one need to put screws or nails into window frame to mount a

window a/c? I would need to mine in living room area and wondering if

I will have to destroy look of window frame there. Thanks

[Guest guest]

What are they from, the refrigerant? I'm trying to decide on a machine

today.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Do you have any weird blue stains anywhere on your oak floors?

>

[Guest guest]

First of all, I do not feel a/c is healthy generally, nor do I think

its good for the environment (waste of energy etc--carbon footprint).

Secondly, right now it's supposedly 90 degrees outside and its pretty

hot out there. We had the a/c on in the car. At my livingroom desk

however with the fan its perfectly comfortable. I have good air

circulation in my apartment. Also, once you live without daily a/c you

find your body adjusts well. It's only when its in the 90's and humid

that I feel uncomfortable. I used to spend summers in Santa Fe and

nobody ever used a/c. It would be dry and in the 90's in the day and

cool and in the 60's at night. You'd open your windows at night and

cool breezes would blow in. You'd close them up by day with

translucent shades to keep the cool in. Houses should be designed with

proper windows (ie multiple windows of good size), overhangs etc to

protect from direct sunlight in certain areas, and the air circulation

with window and ceiling fans will be very comfortable 80% of the

summer days in the northeast and many other parts of the country. This

of course would not be true of New Orleans for instance in August or

Tucson at the moment etc.

People get so accustomed to a/c they don't even know how to live

without it. If they start trying to live the way I'm talking about the

body will naturally adapt. Most of the time I don't find its

necessary. When it is, I roll the portable out. What I do worry about

tho and am trying to fix with the filter on the Holmes fan is the city

air I'm blowing in. That's not too healthy but I " ve been breathing it

for a few decades now.

>

>

[Guest guest]

First, I agree with you on air circulation.

I have been thinking about passive cooling a lot. Obviously, its not

possible everywhere, but in quite a few places it is.

Also, when you are not used to AC, I agree, you are used to dealing

with the heat..

That said, NYC in the summer can be like a big steam bath,

surprisingly, even down in the subway the heat can be overwhelming..

There is a HUGE difference between NYC and Santa Fe (high desert) or

Tucson (Sonoran desert)

(BTW, I love New Mexico.. and the four corners area, its beautiful..

Have done a lot of traveling around there in the past..)

The big difference is HUMIDITY.. Desert environments are so arid that

water evaporates very quickly..

Your body's natural cooling system, sweating, works VERY well in the

desert.. assuming you stay out

of direct sun during the middle of the day..and drink lots of water..

I agree with you also on AC and health.. I grew up without an AC, in

fact, I didn't ever own one until very recently..

didn't need it.. except on very rare hot days.. where I lived..

But that is getting off of the subject..

[Guest guest]

Well, maybe it's not so far off the subject since the group is named

" " and heating and a/c systems are a major concern for so

many of us.

I lived one summer in a house in Santa Fe built by an

environmentalist, so he did it " right " . There were high ceilings,

ceiling fans, and the proper overhangs in back and in front so that

extreme, direct sunlight would not bake the house. The overhangs (I

don't know what you call those) let us have a porch in back and a

porch in front. Even so the house had a lot of light. Interestingly

tho, he had built a small upstairs loft for an office and that was

always HOT. Unpleasant compared to the rest of the house.

OTOH my favorite Santa Fe home, in which I lived for over a year off

and on, must've had mold in the heating system. They had both gas and

electric heat, and it was a passive solar. I sealed up the heating

vent in the floor in the master bedroom and taped it over completely

as I found myself " allergic " to it. I didn't know what that meant back

then (13 years ago). Now I understand. We used the wood burning stove

and electric heat instead.

I think a lot can be done with the design of a house to keep it cooler

in summer and warmer in winter. One thing we know is fresh air

circulating, and window and ceiling fans, do not get " mold " .

[Guest guest]

Jill,

You touched on a few things here that I thought were important to comment on.

> OTOH my favorite Santa Fe home, in which I lived for over a year off

> and on, must've had mold in the heating system. They had both gas and

> electric heat, and it was a passive solar. I sealed up the heating

> vent in the floor in the master bedroom and taped it over completely

> as I found myself " allergic " to it. I didn't know what that meant back

> then (13 years ago). Now I understand. We used the wood burning stove

> and electric heat instead.

We had to deal with a very similar situation in an old (100 year old)

apartment building

that we used to live in. The heating system was connected to a set of

interior cavities

in the building that were moldy, (stachybotrys, and asp/pen)

and the heater emitted mold, even when it was " off " .

Especially on windy days, when it was absolutely hellish..

We gradually discovered what was going on and why. I did the exact same thing,

I sealed it off with plastic. We also tried to use window fans (a big

one blowing in, on the upwind,

seaward side of the apartment, (for fresh air) and a smaller box fan

on the downwind side,

to (with a varying amount of pressure- enough to overcome the 'stack

effect' which in our case was substantial,

because we were on the top floor of a many story building)

keep the mold inside of the walls but at the same time, keep a

continuous, low volume flow of air

moving through the apartment.

(This makes me think of an important phrase that is worth Googling -

" balanced ventilation " )

By the time I figured this out, though, I was already really sick.

However, it was also a major learning experience for me.

>

> I think a lot can be done with the design of a house to keep it cooler

> in summer and warmer in winter.

YES.. its really important. If power were to go out, as happens in

these days of

overburdened electric grids, it could end up being a matter of life

and death that your building could maintain

a habitable temperature without artificial cooling.

> One thing we know is fresh air

> circulating, and window and ceiling fans, do not get " mold " .

>

No, but there are some issues.. If you have *exhaust* fans

(many ventilation systems are exhaust-fan based, like range hoods,

bathroom fans, attic fans, etc.)

you will be depressurizing your home when you run them..

This draws in air from outside through whatever

gaps in the building envelope that exist.. If those gaps involve

circuitous paths through the insides of dusty walls,

there will be dust brought in.. If there is mold in there.. mold will

get sucked in..

During the summer, if the indoors is artificially cooled, the warm,

humid outdoor air will condense

when it meets a surface that is below the dew point.

This is not a fan issue, but of course, also during the winter, warm,

often humid indoor air

will condense whenever it meets a surface that is cooler than the

dewpoint on the outer shell of the building..

These may be the same points that air is brought in through during

summer if there is depressurization.. the gaps..

Buildings need containt attention to air sealing and weatherization.

Obviously, older buildings settle - or are moved during earthquakes,

and they leak.. The taller a building is, the more liable it is to the

stack effect, which can drive very substantial pressure. Areas that

saw condensation in winter will see air movement in summer as well..

if the air movement draws air in, any mold that is there can be pulled

in too.

See how the issue can emerge over time?

Anyway, just trying to help...