Re: : What does hurt look like?

May 10, 2012

Well said, Jennie. I think a lot of people confuse "forgiveness"

with "pretend something didn't happen". Apples and oranges.

Best,

~CJ

Well.... I have a different definition of 'forgive' than

what others seem to have. I am perfectly willing and ready to

forgive serious hurts. However until the person behaves in a

way that shows they are sorry, discontinues the behavior, and

acknowledges that what they did was wrong, I choose not to be

around them nor continue a relationship with them. In my mind

this is common sense. As well as for those who are biblically

inclined it is biblical. "Forgive" does not mean "pretend

something didn't happen", "deny something happened", "just get

over it", or any of a number of other things I have had thrown

at me despite the serious nature of hurts committed and the

long standing history of those committing them.

And for the sake of clarity. I would define "serious hurts"

as something that causes damage to my life (or my children's

lives or the lives of those close to me). Things such as

abuse, mean gossip, support of someone who has done/is doing a

serious hurt, attempts to get me to 'be ok with' someone who

committed a serious hurt and is not sorry or changing, racism,

prejudice, and such like.

Jennie AS -doesn't hold grudges but isn't stupid. Trust is

earned. Respect is earned. Oh.... and an above average detail

oriented memory does not equal grudge holding.

May 10, 2012

> Instead, I seek explanations. I look for the reasons why someone acted the way

they did, and try to figure out the path they took to the actions they took.

Sometimes, when I understand, I'll accept what they did as understandable, but

wrong. As I often say to my kids, An explanation is not an excuse. Just because

I can see why you did something does not make what you did right.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at too with similar situations. I

find it calming, as it helps to make sense of my experience.

> In other cases, though I can follow the logic path, the initial reasons don't

make sense. A therapist friend of mine once told me that most insane people make

perfectly sensible decisions, they just start from faulty premises.

I've found that sometimes the initial reasons don't make sense because I

don't have all of the information, and thus cannot construct a complete

picture.

Sometimes there are outside pressures (real or perceived) on the person

who (usually inadvertently) inflicted the hurt, pressures that may have

driven them to take the path of expediency/self-interest. A path they

will probably rationalize (to themselves and to you) to avoid the

discomfort of cognitive dissonance with respect to their self-image and

actual behavior.

In an ideal situation, I will be able to access the missing information

at some point so that I can fill in the blanks. Usually though, it

doesn't happen that way and I need to make peace with knowing that I

will probably never know the complete story. Very frustrating....

> His actions are still hurtful, and his premises are wrong. I don't hold a

grudge against him, I don't hurt him in retaliation, but neither can I accept

his presence in my life.

I think that's a great way to approach the issue, Liz. The less

emotional energy invested, the better.

Best,

~CJ

May 12, 2012

Hi CJ,

The timing of when you get " done over " certainly is significant. The severity of

the incident is a no brainer too, but in any event the amount of support you

receive during and after the violation or loss is equally significant. If you

have good support, you'll eventually be able to see some tiny mercy in it,

something that set you on a newer and better path, and you can retrain your

brain to be open to risk, although with a much more wizened eye. However, in the

absence of broad social support or economic security, the event could, and often

does trigger a PTSD response, and depending on the violation or loss, the PTSD

could be almost intractable This is just my opinion, of course.

As you said in closing, the most regrettable consequence is that subsequent

wariness denies its sufferer to being open to the kinds of risk that could also

lead positive experiences and opportunities.

- Helen

>

> > I think most of us at one point or another have experienced a serious

betrayal of trust. Timing and the circumstances can make the difference between

something that you can " move on from " albeit very painfully, or something that

is so life altering, perhaps at a very vulnerable time, that it makes it

virtually impossible to do so. Trust is the central issue. It makes or breaks

most deals in life - whether it's on an individual level or on a global level.

> >

>

> Very well expressed, Helen. It seems that everyone gets their share of

> betrayals in life, some worse than others. Some have also betrayed

> loved ones, thus have experienced the emotions on both sides of the fence.

>

> I like what you said about timing and circumstances -- so true. Having

> betrayals occur at already vulnerable times is the worst of all.

>

> Yes, it all does come down to trust. I know that I've been changed (and

> not for the better) by violations of trust in matters that are very

> important to me. With some things, I just won't put myself out there

> again and risk an encore. The possibility of going through that

> experience again seems to be far more of a priority than the

> opportunities for joy that I might be missing out on.

>

> Best,

> ~CJ

>

May 12, 2012

> Hi CJ,

> The timing of when you get " done over " certainly is significant. The severity

of the incident is a no brainer too, but in any event the amount of support you

receive during and after the violation or loss is equally significant. If you

have good support, you'll eventually be able to see some tiny mercy in it,

something that set you on a newer and better path, and you can retrain your

brain to be open to risk, although with a much more wizened eye. However, in the

absence of broad social support or economic security, the event could, and often

does trigger a PTSD response, and depending on the violation or loss, the PTSD

could be almost intractable

Yeah, that's pretty much how I look at it too, Helen.

I've had some good social support, although it's been somewhat

inconsistent. Still, better than none. I don't have any family, so I

need to make do wherever I can.

I think I'm mostly at the point where I'm just too emotionally burned

out to even be able to help myself. That's the tragedy of it all.

If the economic insecurity wasn't so great, I think I would have a

better chance at hopping back on the pony for another ride. I know that

I tend to feel more hopeful about everything when I'm not worrying about

keeping a roof over my head.

I would really like another relationship so that I can make my own

'family', although at this point in my life I'm not approaching this

from the same perspective I did when I was in my 20s. While I do want a

compatible partner and a best friend with whom to share life's joys and

challenges... truth be told, unless he can offer me some sense of

stability and security (both emotionally and financially), I would

prefer to go it alone.

At my age, it won't be easy to find a partner who doesn't come with a

lot of deal-breakers (as defined by me). Especially since I barely have

enough emotional resources to leave the house long enough to do my

grocery shopping. The ability and energy to cast a wide social net and

" make your own luck " in the form of expanded opportunities is really

necessary to find a partner, especially in mid-life. That means getting

out there A LOT, not just when I feel like it.

I also know that it won't be easy to maintain a relationship even if I

do find the right person, as I can honestly say that I don't have a

great deal of relationship assets to bring to the table myself. As time

goes on, I am preferring my own company more and more, as it requires

much less energy than accommodating others. And sadly, I've pretty much

come to the conclusion that I am hard-wired for asexuality, and that

alone is a deal-breaker for 99% of men.

> As you said in closing, the most regrettable consequence is that subsequent

wariness denies its sufferer to being open to the kinds of risk that could also

lead positive experiences and opportunities.

You said it better than I did though, Helen.

Best,

~CJ

May 12, 2012

Thanks CJ! :-) Jennie

Re: : What does "hurt" look like?

Well said, Jennie. I think a lot of people confuse "forgiveness" with "pretend something didn't happen". Apples and oranges.Best,~CJ

Well.... I have a different definition of 'forgive' than what others seem to have. I am perfectly willing and ready to forgive serious hurts. However until the person behaves in a way that shows they are sorry, discontinues the behavior, and acknowledges that what they did was wrong, I choose not to be around them nor continue a relationship with them. In my mind this is common sense. As well as for those who are biblically inclined it is biblical. "Forgive" does not mean "pretend something didn't happen", "deny something happened", "just get over it", or any of a number of other things I have had thrown at me despite the serious nature of hurts committed and the long standing history of those committing them.

And for the sake of clarity. I would define "serious hurts" as something that causes damage to my life (or my children's lives or the lives of those close to me). Things such as abuse, mean gossip, support of someone who has done/is doing a serious hurt, attempts to get me to 'be ok with' someone who committed a serious hurt and is not sorry or changing, racism, prejudice, and such like.

Jennie AS -doesn't hold grudges but isn't stupid. Trust is earned. Respect is earned. Oh.... and an above average detail oriented memory does not equal grudge holding.

May 13, 2012

Well this thread has gone a lot further down the road than I imagined it

would at the beginning, but there's one thing about the hurts that

people have suffered and have been describing here that no-one has

mentioned yet.

It's the question of whether we've aallowed these hurts to be inflicted

upon us in the first place because of our naïvity and our attitude

twoards conflict.

Could there be a common element operating here whereby we're trying too

hard to be nice and accomodating to others, so when certain others

perceive our soft accommodating niceness they're emboldened to take

advantage of the situation to their advantage and to our detriment

because they don't expect there'll be any comeback? If we'd been

able to have a more assertive attitude towards others, not been quite

so intent on avoiding confict in the first place, ready to stand up and

argue more, and to have generally adopted a more aggressive stance from

the outset, do you think potential perpetrators might have thought

twice and been deterred from causing our hurts in the first place?

Thinking about it in my own case, perhaps my naïvity and my attempts to

be accommodating and nice were partly to blame for the two big hurts

I've suffered. Anyone else see similar personal characteristics as

possible contributors to what happened?

May 13, 2012

!

Yes absolutely, pretty much exactly as you state it. (see below) I was always trying to be nice, not make any waves, etc. All that did was scream "WEAK" in nonverbal language and set me up over and over.

It's only been in more recent years that I have become more assertive. Suddenly people who used to be rather pushy and domineering don't want anything to do with me. I also get called names by those people. But the important part is abusive people, mean people, obnoxious people, and people who think I need fixed no longer want to be around me and generally run for the hills.

It is both amusing and exasperating that certain people in my life have spent YEARS being mean, rude, disrespectful, judgmental, etc and yet when I stand up to them one time I am suddenly the most horrible person on the planet. LOL

I have long believed that AS made me a magnet for nasty people. Once I figured that out and learned about body language and learned how to be more assertive and confident they are all starting to filter out of my life. Most of them are gone at this point.

Jennie

Re: Re: : What does "hurt" look like?

It's the question of whether we've allowed these hurts to be inflicted upon us in the first place because of our naivety and our attitude twoards conflict.Could there be a common element operating here whereby we're trying too hard to be nice and accomodating to others, so when certain others perceive our soft accommodating niceness they're emboldened to take advantage of the situation to their advantage and to our detriment because they don't expect there'll be any comeback? If we'd been able to have a more assertive attitude towards others, not been quite so intent on avoiding confict in the first place, ready to stand up and argue more, and to have generally adopted a more aggressive stance from the outset, do you think potential perpetrators might have thought twice and been deterred from causing our hurts in the first place?Thinking about it in my own case, perhaps my naïvity and my attempts to be accommodating and nice were partly to blame for the two big hurts I've suffered. Anyone else see similar personal characteristics as possible contributors to what happened?

May 13, 2012

Hi ,

The most difficult thing about violations of trust is that usually, in an effort

to understand *why* this happened and try to protect one's self from it

happening again, the victim does take a lot of ownership for what happened. Too

much.

and I could tell you a story about a con man .. once married to a former

ASPIRES member, I won't go into detail here but it seems that NO ONE this man

has comes into contact with has any defenses against his schemes. He got a lot

of good, smart people.

I'm sure a lot of his victims feel stupid, feel they " should have seen it

coming. " But when someone sets out to manipulate they go into territory that

normal people can't even anticipate. They lower the bar of human decency that

much.

We can do a post mortem after we've been done over and vow " never again " but

chances are, nothing quite like that will ever happen again anyway.

Some are more naive than others yes, and that makes them more vulnerable, some

(but not all) AS especially. But you don't always have to be naive to be

deceived. It does suck and I am sorry.

- Helen

>

> Well this thread has gone a lot further down the road than I imagined it

> would at the beginning, but there's one thing about the hurts that

> people have suffered and have been describing here that no-one has

> mentioned yet.

>

> It's the question of whether we've aallowed these hurts to be inflicted

> upon us in the first place because of our naïvity and our attitude

> twoards conflict.

>

> Could there be a common element operating here whereby we're trying too

> hard to be nice and accomodating to others, so when certain others

> perceive our soft accommodating niceness they're emboldened to take

> advantage of the situation to their advantage and to our detriment

> because they don't expect there'll be any comeback? If we'd been

> able to have a more assertive attitude towards others, not been quite

> so intent on avoiding confict in the first place, ready to stand up and

> argue more, and to have generally adopted a more aggressive stance from

> the outset, do you think potential perpetrators might have thought

> twice and been deterred from causing our hurts in the first place?

>

> Thinking about it in my own case, perhaps my naïvity and my attempts to

> be accommodating and nice were partly to blame for the two big hurts

> I've suffered. Anyone else see similar personal characteristics as

> possible contributors to what happened?

>

May 13, 2012

, I agree with you. I think naivete and an aversion to conflict

really do set a lot of people up for emotional pain. Not only does it

contribute to them having unrealistic expectations of others (in which

case the pain is self-inflicted), it can make them an easy target for

those with a tendency to exploit others (externally inflicted).

The more naive a person is, the less likely that they will be to see the

warning signs that instinctively register on the radar of more worldly

individuals.

Those who are less naive (but highly conflict averse) may be able to see

the problem unfolding with full clarity, yet feel unable to do anything

to stop it. This could be due to a poor self-image, a fear of

rejection, risk to their (or their children's) personal safety, or

feeling trapped by financial circumstances and/or disability. Perhaps

all of the above.

That being said, violations of trust befall everyone -- even the worldly

and assertive. It just tends to happen far less, that's all.

Another thing to remember is that violations of trust are not the

exclusive province of bad people who make a career out of exploiting

others. Very often, otherwise good people can betray the trust of

others due to their own aversion to conflict, or mental health issues,

or whatever.