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Re:Theroretical Drywall Question?

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Todd,

The discoloration is probably just house dust that was trapped from

small air flows by the roughness of the surfaces. (This is commonly

seen at the edges of light-colored carpets.) If you are worried about

it, I would agree with Carl that tape sampling would supply the answer

to your question. Be carefeul where you send the sample. One lab

identified soot, a possibility if you burn jar candles, as

Stachybotrys mold!

I would disagree with Carl's expert about drywall. There are millions

of homes and commercial buildings that have been built with drywall

where walls and ceilings do not have mold problems. Lots of folks even

put wallpaper (with starch glue!) over plaster walls to no ill effect.

Mold grows because of excess dampness, whether from leaks or high

humidity. You don't even need paper for this to happen. Mold will grow

in settled dust on steel and glass if the humidity is high enough. And

dust is everywhere. This is why mold grows on foundation walls in

basements and in carpets on concrete. Neither concrete nor plastic

carpet fibers are biodegradable, but the dust is.

So the key is to monitor the relative humidity. Therma-Stor now sells

an " Alert " thermo-hygrometer that measures temperature and relative

humidity (RH) and records the hours the RH is above a value that you

set; it even rings a small alarm if the RH exceeds the preset value:

http://www.thermastor.com/HA-DEH3000/HA_manual.pdf

You can place one of these for a few days or weeks where you have

concerns and see what is happening. Most molds can't grow under about

75% RH and don't really grow much until the RH is over 80%.

Don't be confused by advice that I and others have given about RH, as

you will hear that 50% RH is a recommended indoor value in a basement.

This is because you want a large safety factor in the basement air;

keep in mind that if the RH is 50% in the middle of a basement, it is

likely to be higher at the cold foundation walls near the floor

because RH INCREASES as you cool air and the air is colder at the

floor perimeter, especially in the corners. Keeping the RH close to

50% also keeps the mite populations down.

But indoors, above grade) there is no problem, other than comfort,

with summer RH at 70% (because the walls and floor are not colder).

Of course, in the winter, the indoor RH on any surface should not

exceed the dew point, or you will have condensation. So it's risky to

have the RH over 35-40%. (Harvard University is about to tear down a

17 year-old addition to the Fogg museum:

www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/articles/2008/06/28/falling_down) due

to moisture condensation in walls.

Most indoor air investigators rarely see Stachybotrys spores in the

air but this mold growth is most often seen on the paper of wet

drywall. I and others believe that the spores are in the paper to

begin with (from manufacturing processes), and are not from the air.

It makes no sense that a mold whose spores are rarely seen in the air

would be present inside every wall cavity.

There are many more foolish practices than using drywall with paper.

Some " green " builders are constructing houses with straw bales! (The

first one was torn down after several years due to mold growth!) Other

builders are creating greenhouses (to collect solar heat) and

below-grade spaces (to cool air or store heat from passive solar) as

" pre-conditioners " forthe return air in heating or cooling systems.

(In this case, dust accumulates on the storage material and gets moldy).

To reduce mold problems, keep building materials dry and monitor the RH.

If you can afford one, get a Therma-Stor Santa Fe dehumidifier for the

basement.

C. May

________________________________________________________________________

> 11b. Re: Theroretical Drywall Question?

> Posted by: " Carl E. Grimes " grimes@... grimeshh

> Date: Sat Jul 5, 2008 11:20 pm ((PDT))

>

> Todd,

>

> You ask some very good questions and make an astute

> observation about all this seeming " just...well... goofy. "

>

> As for paper on drywall, one expert in our industry puts it this way.

> " Even the three little pigs never built a house out of paper. "

>

> The fact you don't see mold growth on the paper-backed drywall

> in you humid attic is because the wetting rates are lower than the

> drying rates, keeping the materials dry enough overall to not grow

> mold. Building science, the materials, and the science of airborne

> moisture (humidity and dew point) are complex disciplines

> involving dynamic and complex situations.

>

> Sometimes mold grows and sometimes it doesn't. It depends on

> both the overall and the specific conditions actually present,

> whether they can be measured or not. The mold and bacteria

> don't read lab reports to decide if they are going to have an orgy

> and create lots of babies. If the conditions are right for long

> enough and enough times, just like iresponsible teenagers, they

> will.

>

> You question about the 1/8 inch of discoloration at the seams is

> one that is appropriate for answering by -- hold on to your hats all

> you long timers that know me views on mold sampling -- mold

> sampling.

>

> A tape lift of the discolored material (it may be dust) AND a tape

> lift a couple of inches away from it could be sent to an accredited

> lab. You will probably find some mold on each. So the

> comparison is important. If air moves through the crack and the

> material is otherwise dry, it is likely dust. If it is ELEVATED mold,

> however, you have a moisture problem to address that is just as

> important as the mold growth.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

>> Our house has a drywall ceiling with blown-in insulation above it.

>> The attic space is " exposed " through sophet vents and a ridge vent,

>> to all the vissitudes of humidity and temperature of the great

>> outdoors

>> of humid East Tennessee. For that matter, so is the drywall in our

>> unheated garage.

>>

>> At any rate, I often sit here and look at the ceiling sometimes,

>> wondering,

>> " Paperbacked drywall, why doesn't it mold? How STUPID would you

>> have to be to build a house design like this? " I have pulled back

>> the

>> blown in fiberglass insulation in the attic to examine the drywall

>> underneath, and it appears to be in fine shape. I am puzzled by

>> this.

>>

>> And yet, I noticed particularly at some of the joining edges, where

>> the

>> ceiling meets a wall. The ceiling drywall can be a bit discolored

>> for about

>> 1/8th of an inch out all along the joint. I do not know what this

>> represents?

>>

>> So, generally speaking, how prone is drywall in a ceiling with blown

>> in insulation,

>> sophet vents and ridge vent, to mold intrusion? Doesn't just plain

>> humidity and heat

>> over the years penetrate the drywall and foster mold? The topside

>> looks fine.

>> Most everything looks fine in the living space side. But the whole

>> system seems

>> just...well... goofy. Should I be worried? (:-/

>>

>> Todd in Tenn.

>>

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Thanks for explaining RH. I remember as a kid our house had windows

open all summer long unless it was raining, and as far as I know no

mold, so I've been wondering how they did it back then if humidity over

50% caused this trouble. In fact the house was bought by my

grandparents in an auction and is now a historic building and being

used as a guest house at a local university, so must be doing okay.

>

Most molds can't grow under about

> 75% RH and don't really grow much until the RH is over 80%.

>

> Don't be confused by advice that I and others have given about RH, as

> you will hear that 50% RH is a recommended indoor value in a basement.

> This is because

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Jeff, Will Sante Fe also clean air in basement with it's MERV 11 or 14

filter or does that just keep the dehumidifier clean? Thanks

>

> If you can afford one, get a Therma-Stor Santa Fe dehumidifier for the

> basement.

>

> C. May

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Barb,

Since it is moving over 200 cfm (I believe) over the MERV-11 filter,

the Santa Fe is certainly cleaning the air at the same time.

Just make sure that you use a 2-inch filter, (MERV 11 or 14) not two,

cheap one-inch fiberglass furnace filters, as I have seen people do.

Whenever you condense water (A/C, dehumidifier, etc.) you MUST remove

all the biodegradable dust with an efficient filter or you WILL get

mold.

One client used junk filters on his Santa Fe and ended up with a

dehumidifier full of yeast.

I recommend placing duct tape around the filter to prevent any bypass.

Even a small amount of dust can lead to mold or yeast.

The battle never ends!!

" Jeff May's Healthy Home Tip, " s Hopkins University Press 2008

www.mayindoorair.com

_____________________________________________________________________

> 8b. Theroretical Drywall Question?

> Posted by: " barb1283 " barb1283@... barb1283

> Date: Mon Jul 7, 2008 12:53 am ((PDT))

>

> Jeff, Will Sante Fe also clean air in basement with it's MERV 11 or 14

> filter or does that just keep the dehumidifier clean? Thanks

>

>

>>

>> If you can afford one, get a Therma-Stor Santa Fe dehumidifier for the

>> basement.

>>

>> C. May

>

>

>

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