Re: Question about removing musty odor - are washable HEPAs available?

August 11, 2008

Charcoal wears out very quickly. And it holds on to odors..

As far as I can see it, its mostly a marketing thing in that context.

or you would need a LOT of it..

By all means, get an affordable HEPA cleaner. Price has little to do

with quality of the air cleaning.

It might buy you a more powerful motor.. But is that worth spending

2-4 times more? I don't think so.

Do any of the HEPA cleaners have washable HEPA filters like the

CleanStream ones for wet-dry vacs?

They are great..

August 11, 2008

Re: charcoal in the Austins. They do have alot of it, 15 pounds of

activated charcoal, but I think filtering out particles is the

important thing and better to be able to have a filter cartridge that

is more affordable to replace. I like the Austin but think the less

expensive hepa only without the other gizmos may be better buy.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Charcoal wears out very quickly. And it holds on to odors..

>

> As far as I can see it, its mostly a marketing thing in that context.

> or you would need a LOT of it..

>

August 11, 2008

I spoke to someone at Austin Air about the charcoal in the units. She did say

that if the humidity is high where those units are running that they can start

retaining the moisture and are more likely to smell whatever you are absorbing.

She suggested keeping the room dehumidified below 50%. The other issue is what

you are using the unit for. In my case we are looking to absorb any fumes from a

carpet which we have in the apartment or other chems as well as any possible

musty smells. But if you are looking to deal with mold or allergens than I agree

a straight hepa of any kind is the best choice. Of course, I'm knew to these

units and can't swear by anything. jmho. I do appreciate all this helpful

feedback. I learn so much on this list every day.

Jac

> From: barb1283 <barb1283@...>

> Re: charcoal in the Austins. They do have alot of it, 15

> pounds of

August 12, 2008

Are the charcoal cartridges separate from the HEPA filtration?

Actually, I think many people put too much emphasis on filtration, and

not enough on getting fresh air to circulate through their homes.

If you keep recirculating the same air, whatever is in your home's

effects is going to be magnified. A really bad mold situation will

become unbearable.

The best option, is balanced ventilation. That means at least two

fans, an intake and an exhaust.. The supply and return should be

physically separated.

How much do these expensive air cleaners cost? More than an HRV/ERV?

I suspect maybe so!

August 12, 2008

how much more does it cost om heating and cooling bills to heat or

cool freah air that still needs to be filtrated?

August 12, 2008

I think some are seperate, but the austin unit is combined with carbon, zeolite,

hepa and one other item especially for chemicals that escapes my mind at the

moment.

You are no doubt correct about fresh air and I will invesitgate HRV/ERV units.

There are problems though in terms of my own sensitivities to even outdoor mold

and pollens and agricultural chemicals and periodic mosquito spraying in our

area and also an area with higher than nomral humdity. Were it just a matter of

good old fresh air, I'd be right there. I grew up with the windows wide open all

my life. It would be neccesary I beleive for me to have an hrv/erv unit that can

filter and perhaps find some supplementary dehumdification.. if that is

possible. Does anyone kn ow if there is any way to use an HRV/ERV in a region

like mine and deal with those outdoor issues safely?

Thanks,

Jac

> Are the charcoal cartridges separate from the HEPA

> filtration?

August 12, 2008

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 2:52 PM, who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> how much more does it cost om heating and cooling bills to heat or

> cool freah air that still needs to be filtrated?

>

That is the whole point of using a heat recovery ventilator or an

energy recovery ventilator.

They are HEAT EXCHANGERS..

They use the exhaust air to heat or cool the incoming air..

So you can get ventilation from outside AND keep your heat or coolness inside..

All I can say is they work.. They allow you to have fresh air - which

is really important.

You save money on cooling too, in that you don't turn air conditioning

on as frequently, because its like having a " whole house fan " without

the depressurizing effect.

Many days you don't need AC at all..

They typically run all the time and good ones are virtually silent..

Check out the HRV and ERV ratings at WWW.HVI.ORG

Typically, you save 60-70% of heat / cooling energy but its actually

more because, as I said, you need cooling much less.

Plus, you are getting fresh air all the time..

August 12, 2008

I like my Austin but I think for the usual air cleaning, a hepa that I

can replace the cartridge more inexpensively would be better for me.

You are right to absorb chemical odors, the charcoal would work well.

>

In my case we are looking to absorb any fumes from a carpet which we

have in the apartment or other chems as well as any possible musty

smells.

August 12, 2008

Jac,

You can attach HEPA and non-HEPA filters to HRVs and also, if there

was or is some issue

with the air outside, just - presto - turn it off!

So, you are saying that some of the air cleaners separate HEPA filter

from the charcoal filter so people can leave the charcoal out when

they realize that its a losing battle trying to charcoal filter ALL

the air they run through the cleaner?

I have found that charcoal filters can smell sometimes, it seems that

they act to absorb odors at some times and release them at others..

not always when you would want. And they do not last very long unless

they are kept in sealed containers before use.

Note: If you are in a hazardous vapor situation, you should use a

canister type respirator according to its instructions. Some

respirators use activated charcoal canisters that you can attach on to

the HEPA cartridges..and when they are added on, they do specifically

remove those certain kinds of VOCs that charcoal removes (a subset of

them) when they are new.

Various professionals DO need the activated charcoal protection in

addition to the HEPA particulate protection, when they use it so they

tend to use HEPA filters only for most particulate situations and only

ADD the activated charcoal canisters when the situation REQUIRES it.

That makes it all both affordable and safe.

There are other kinds of contaminants that neither activated charcoal

or HEPA will remove..

In general, mold and particulate pollution are reduced by particulate

filters (like HEPA-types).. Particulate filters like HEPA don't effect

MVOCs..

Does Austin sell more economical HEPA-only filters ? Or just the

charcoal-plus-HEPA ones?

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Jac <jacobadler123@...> wrote:

> I think some are seperate, but the austin unit is combined with carbon,

> zeolite, hepa and one other item especially for chemicals that escapes my

> mind at the moment.

>

> You are no doubt correct about fresh air and I will invesitgate HRV/ERV

> units. There are problems though in terms of my own sensitivities to even

> outdoor mold and pollens and agricultural chemicals and periodic mosquito

> spraying in our area and also an area with higher than nomral humdity. Were

> it just a matter of good old fresh air, I'd be right there. I grew up with

> the windows wide open all my life. It would be neccesary I beleive for me to

> have an hrv/erv unit that can filter and perhaps find some supplementary

> dehumdification.. if that is possible. Does anyone kn ow if there is any way

> to use an HRV/ERV in a region like mine and deal with those outdoor issues

> safely?

>

> Thanks,

> Jac

>

August 12, 2008

I bought them for an apartment. One for liv rm, one for bedroom.

There wasn't a bad mold problem there.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

>> If you keep recirculating the same air, whatever is in your home's

> effects is going to be magnified. A really bad mold situation will

> become unbearable.

>

August 12, 2008

The other thing is I have huge tree that is about an extra story in

height above house that is full of algae, which I am allergic to, so it

isn't as if everything is wonderful with the outdoor air. I

can't 'fell' the tree since I live on a hilltop and we need the big

root supply it has. We took down one tree and we can't take down

another. Your solution does not solve everyone else's problems. Just

yours.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

>>

> The best option, is balanced ventilation. That means at least two

> fans, an intake and an exhaust.. The supply and return should be

> physically separated.

>

August 12, 2008

You'd probably have to get an UltraAire by Thermastor. Very expensive

but then so is being ill. I'm not going to invest in it, because I

don't know if I can use it when I move, but if you are some place you

are going to stay long enough, it may be worth it. It dehumidifies and

filters and has duct openings to bring in outside air and put it into

your home heating and cooling ducts, cold air return side. Lots of

company make the thing Live is talking about though they do not

dehumidify also. I think UltraAire is the only one that dehumidifies

as well and you would need that if you have alot of humidity in your

area in summer unless you like it humid in your house.

>

> It would be neccesary I beleive for me to have an hrv/erv unit that

can filter and perhaps find some supplementary dehumdification.. if

that is possible. Does anyone kn ow if there is any way to use an

HRV/ERV in a region like mine and deal with those outdoor issues safely?

August 12, 2008

I really doubt you would save money in the summer. If it is the

circulating of air, you could turn your central air system to 'fan' and

get that. Heat recovery conducts heat to the air coming in but it

doesn't say anything about transmitting cool to air. Maybe it does

though, but if you don't extract the humidity of air coming in, you are

going to have to cool more to get that humidity down unless you have a

whole house dehumidifier like the UltraAire which is a $2k I believe.

Even on days when the RH is only 50% or so, we know if the dewpoint is

high 60's or 70's, like it is almost all summer long in many areas,

that air will have alot of water in it.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> They typically run all the time and good ones are virtually silent..

>

>Typically, you save 60-70% of heat / cooling energy but its actually

> more because, as I said, you need cooling much less.

>

> Plus, you are getting fresh air all the time..

>

August 13, 2008

How long does the charcoal filter remove odors FOR.

ALL the science I've seen on this says they can't last that long!

Is the charcoal part removable, like it always is on the masks that

people use for toxic chemicals?

August 13, 2008

You've read scientific articles on how long activated charcoal lasts??

May I ask for specifics?

Manufacturer says 5 yrs under normal conditions but time will vary w

conditions. Best way to determine is if there is an odor and running

it doesn't remove it, then one would assume time is up on the charcoal.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

Activated charcoal:

> ALL the science I've seen on this says they can't last that long!

>

August 13, 2008

my sister uses a barrel that someone gave her, thinking she said it was

a whiskey or wine barrel, dont recall, anyway it's lined with charcoal

and she uses it for waste/trash basket, it absoebs the smells, shes

used it for several years and it still works.

> Activated charcoal:

> > ALL the science I've seen on this says they can't last that long!

> >

>

August 14, 2008

Most people who use HRVs/ERVs also have air conditioners, either

window or central.

That is how they dehumidify. Its not healthy to use the " fresh air "

vents on window air conditioners

because they often bring in very dirty air because of where they are

placed, right next to the air conditoners' coils.

The reason I think they would help a lot of moldies is because they

prevent the kind of concentration of pollutants that is common to

buildings of all kinds. (really, they should be required in new

construction here in the US as they are in Canada..)

You can add filters on the intake. They use standard size ducts so its

extremely easy. All the manufacturers sell them. The way you titrate

the amount of fresh air is with timers. You have a timer that has the

HRV or ERV run x minutes out of every hour.. thats pretty simple..

In the summer, because you dont want to bring in THAt much humidity,

you might run it on low and set it to run 15 minutes out of every

hour. But it prevents buildup of things like VOCS indoors. Many

buildings have low-level natural gas or carbon monoxide leaks.. Paint

offgasses, people buy things that use fiberboard (i.e. fake wood) etc.

If you live in an apartment building, everyone shares the same air if

you dont open your windows, that is where your air is coming from,

inside the walls.

An HRV wont address a serious mold problem adequately enough to

prevent illness.. I suspect, at all.

In my experience, even high volume air from fans 24/7 won't... But it

could save your life!