Re: well, I got the CSM

[Guest guest]

Its clear that dietary fiber lowers cholesterol but I don't think that

dietary fibers " bind " mycotoxins and I do know that since almost all

bile is recycled, the toxins get recycled (and put BACK into the

bloodstream) along with them.

That is the normal state of affairs, even if you eat a high-fiber diet.

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 5:43 PM, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

> As for removing toxins. Dietary fibers lower cholesterol by binding

> to bile acids and removing cholesterol.

cholesterol does not equal toxins!

> Dr Shoemaker said he's found

> that things that lower cholesterol by binding action, also remove

> toxins.

" things that lower cholesterol by binding action " means bile acid

sequestrants..i.e. cholestyramine, welchol, and maybe one or two

others..

> Natural products from reputatable sources market liver

> cleanse products that rely on natural fibers such as milk thistle and

> others to detoxify liver.

Barb, are you plugging some product to replace cholestyramine here?

Please, disclose what you are getting at, stop beating around the

bush.

> People who have liver trouble

The set of people with liver trouble and the set of people who get

sick from mold may have common members BUT the two sets are not in any

way identical...

Milk Thistle (Silybum marianum) exerts its magic because of silymarin

and related flavonolignans. Silymarin and its relatives also have

antioxidant properties. They are not ion exchange resins and they

don't bind mycotoxins..

They CAN - in very high doses, reduce the damage caused by some kinds

of very toxic mushrooms.. is that how you got confused?

use milk

> thistle, a natural fiber, to detoxify liver. I didn't say they are

> as good as or better than CSM and in fact didn't even slightly broach

> the subject. I only said to Branis that " CSM has tiny fibers that

> may irriate his gi tract. "

> On the subject though. You know nobody really does exhaustive tests

> on what natural products do because there is no money in it for

> anyone.

People do do studies on natural medicines like milk thistle.. Its just

that here in the US, its difficult, since our medical system is in

such a state of advanced dysfunction.

> Scientific tests are only done on pharmaceutical products so

> someone can make a profit on them. That doesn't mean that

> pharmaceutical products are the only things that do these things.

> Doctors rely on them because they treat by standards of care, none of

> which to my knowledge today include any natural substances. Doesn't

> mean they don't work.

Quality is very variable with supplements..

..

> Many pharmaceutical products are poor spin-offs of natural products,

Almost all drugs we use are " spinoffs of natural products " in one way

or another...Its only been quite recently that

drug discovery has been pursued in a methodical, mathematical way..

Most drugs were discovered because of happy

accidents with natural substances..

many were discovered because some tribe in the jungle - or, our

ancestors in {insert country here} used some plant to cure a disease

and it worked.. I know that sometimes, these long-used natural

medicines are cheaper and better than commercial drugs,

but often, they are blunt instruments and the purified drugs are far

more specific. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily better,

though, because often, they are so expensive as to be unaffordable in

today's America.

> put out there, inferior, by because the profits are controlled.

> Peptol Bismol for example COATS the stomach when it is irritated.

> You know what coats the stomach and is better for it than Beptol

> Bismol, buttermilk. Coats the stomach but ALSO replaces natural

> probiotics upset can cause and improves it and costs ALOT less, and

> also happens to be healthy to drink even if you don't have an upset

> stomach. Does anyone study with lab mice buttermilk.......I think

> not. Women's birth control pills, the kind that seem to cause cancer

> in studies, have natural estrogen BUT artificial progesterone. Why

> does it have artificial progesterone in it? Is it because that is

> only way we can get progesteron? No. Natural progesterone can be

> obtained naturally from plant sources that is exactly identical to

> type of progesterone women have naturally in their bodies. Natural

> estrogens and natural progesterones are both found in plant life and

> are identical to that found in women. So why do they use artificial

> progesterone? Because then people need an Rx to get it.

> Understand?

Yes.. it makes sense.. But the situation probably varies from one drug

to another.

> It's highly likely that artificial progesterone could be

> what is causing cancer to develope in women who take it, since it

> isn't identical to what they should have, but it was put out their so

> someone could make some money.

I don't know enough to comment but I can see how that might happen.

> We've discussed this before. There is undeniable evidence that many

> natural substances remove toxins in our bodies but I have never said

> it is as good as CSM, but it could be.

Its quite possible that there is some unknown toxin-binder or mold

illness antidote out there

in the natural world.. But if it is found, it will be discussed

extensively here, I am sure.

It hasn't been yet.

The natural alternatives that I know of to cholestyramine - with the

possible exception

of medical grades of activated charcoal,

are all so inferior in binding mycotoxins out of enterohepatic

recirculation that they

really don't deserve to be called 'alternatives'.

This HAS been studied in the world of animal husbandry.. (don't you

love that word?)

When you take fiber, sometimes you get a similar sort of burning

feeling in your gut to cholestyramine..

But its NOT the same thing happening.. not at all...

[Guest guest]

Just found this... thought it was interesting..

Another data point..

Physiol Behav. 2008 May 23;94(2):285-92. Epub 2008 Jan 5.

Water-soluble dietary fibers and cardiovascular disease.

Theuwissen E, Mensink RP.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht,

The Netherlands. e.theuwissen@...

One well-established way to reduce the risk of developing

cardiovascular disease (CVD) is to lower serum LDL cholesterol levels

by reducing saturated fat intake. However, the importance of other

dietary approaches, such as increasing the intake of water-soluble

dietary fibers is increasingly recognized. Well-controlled

intervention studies have now shown that four major water-soluble

fiber types-beta-glucan, psyllium, pectin and guar gum-effectively

lower serum LDL cholesterol concentrations, without affecting HDL

cholesterol or triacylglycerol concentrations. It is estimated that

for each additional gram of water-soluble fiber in the diet serum

total and LDL cholesterol concentrations decrease by -0.028 mmol/L and

-0.029 mmol/L, respectively. Despite large differences in molecular

structure, no major differences existed between the different types of

water-soluble fiber, suggesting a common underlying mechanism. In this

respect, it is most likely that water-soluble fibers lower the

(re)absorption of in particular bile acids. As a result hepatic

conversion of cholesterol into bile acids increases, which will

ultimately lead to increased LDL uptake by the liver. Additionally,

epidemiological studies suggest that a diet high in water-soluble

fiber is inversely associated with the risk of CVD. These findings

underlie current dietary recommendations to increase water-soluble

fiber intake.

Publication Types:

* Review

PMID: 18302966 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

48: Eur J Nutr. 2008 Mar;47(2):68-79. Epub 2008 Feb 26.

Oat: unique among the cereals.

Sadiq Butt M, Tahir-Nadeem M, Khan MK, Shabir R, Butt MS.

Institute of Food Science and Technology, University of

Agriculture, Faisalabad, Pakistan.

This review is intended to focus on the composition of oat and its

therapeutic potential in the pharmacology that supports its use to

cure various maladies. Oat (Avena sativa) is distinct among the

cereals due to its multifunctional characteristics and nutritional

profile. Recent advancement in food and nutrition has revealed the

importance of its various components. It is a good source of dietary

fiber especially beta-glucan, minerals and other nutrients. Oat and

oat by products have been proven to be helpful in the treatment of

diabetes and cardiovascular disorders. Oat bran in particular, is good

source of B complex vitamins, protein, fat, minerals besides heart

healthy soluble fiber beta-glucan. The beta-glucan has outstanding

functional properties and is of immense importance in human nutrition.

Different physiological effects of beta-glucan are related to its

viscosity, attenuation of postprandial plasma glucose and insulin

responses, high transport of bile acids towards lower parts of the

intestinal tract and high excretion of bile acids thereby lowering of

serum cholesterol levels. Moreover, it is helpful against coeliac

disease. The incorporation of oat grains and oat bran in the food

products improves not only the nutrition but also a therapy against

various maladies.

Publication Types:

* Review

PMID: 18301937 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]