Re: Advice on an air purifier?

[Guest guest]

What brand did you buy? Thanks!

>

> Until my landlord begins to remediate the mold situation I thought I'd

> try to improve our symptoms with and air purifier. I just bought a UV-C

> purifier and want to give it a go. I've been leaving all the windows

> open even at night to try to exchange the air. Should I still leave the

> windows open or would shutting the house provide better results. Up to

> this point keeping the house shut for the night )even if I open first

> thing in the morning) makes our symptoms much more severe.

>

> Thanks,

> Moneca

>

[Guest guest]

since you are in a rental, it sounds like your options are fairly limited.

Filtration isn't the best option since all but the most ridiculously

expensive HEPA units fail in crucial ways.

HEPA is inherently unable to remove aany VOCs from the air except in a

limited fashion (using activated charcoal filters that don't last very

long in typical moldy home applications) and does not insert any fresh

air into your home. Perhaps you could purchase one of the smaller HRVs

with an eye to getting one with a removable washable core.. Then mount

the intake and exhaust hoods in a window and run the ducting

nconspicuously as possible such that your bedroom is " in the loop "

(between the indoor supply and return)

The smallest Fantexh and the (only) Panasonic unit are both fairly

inexpensive and I think in a rental they might be lifesavers.. There

is no other way to get enough fresh air in the winter and still remain

warm..

However, they must be kept clean. That means washing out the core

(typically a metal cube of fin-like material) in the sink every few

weeks.. Jeff May had a good post a few weeks ago about cleaning HRVs

which you should read.. But all in all I think getting balanced (both

supply and return) fresh air is far preferable to filtration if its at

all possible. Canada requires HRVs on all new constructiion. I don't

see how we in the US can go on allowing such terrible construction

practices (so much use of fake wood with all its formaldehyde.. some

would say gypsum wallboard with paper facing, but I actually think GWB

is usually fine, its the building practices which are deficient) and

not.. to be honest. It shows how much power the various lobbies have

here.

Given the astronomical cost of some air filters and especially,

consumables.. I think an HRV (which is basically two fans and a heat

exchanger, a fancy name for a heat sink) represents the best value,

too.

If you can't afford one, perhaps buy window fans that have both intake

and exhaust and run them in that mode 24/7.. I spent a winter like

this in a rental in mild climate and it was cold, though... we

couldn't use the heaters because of bad mold, didn't have hydronic,

electric heat is expensive!

On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Moneca <monecacolorado@...> wrote:

> Until my landlord begins to remediate the mold situation

Complete remediation of a really moldy building can take a very long

time (as much as a year) because it can sometimes involve literally

stripping a building down to the studs, and replacing all the gypsum

wallboard and sometimes, even subflooring. Often that is too long for

a family to stay in hotels, etc at their own cost. (Rent controlled

cities often require that they not rent another apartment)

>I thought I'd

> try to improve our symptoms with and air purifier.

The problem is, the longer you stay there, the more hypersensitized

you become. Ultimately, your body will make you more sensitive faster

than even the best HEPA filters can remove mold. And that's for a lot

longer than your rental situation.

If its at all possible, if your landlord is showing reticence, move.

If the cost to move in unattainable, try to find some other option

that does not involve staying there. If you are unamployed, have

children, and no income, you don't have many options. However, if you

have the money to afford a $300 dollar air cleaner, I think a $325 HRV

might be a better investment.. and it brings in fresh air and pushes

stale indoor air, moldy or not, out.

>I just bought a UV-C

> purifier and want to give it a go. I've been leaving all the windows

> open even at night to try to exchange the air. Should I still leave the

> windows open or would shutting the house provide better results. Up to

> this point keeping the house shut for the night )even if I open first

> thing in the morning) makes our symptoms much more severe.

>

> Thanks,

> Moneca

>

> _

[Guest guest]

Sure you can get fresh air into apartment in winter. It's

particularly easy in the winter with strong stack effect working for

you. All you do is open the window once a day for short time, to

change the air in apartment. Crack window open slight amount in each

room. Stack effect will draw in air very strongly, so you only want

to crack open. Excess air will push out of any opening it can get,

under door into apartment hallway, through any crack and since you

would only do it for short time, it will not cause any moisture

problem since moisture problem takes a constant high moisture

situation to incur. In winter the air is very dry, and cleaner

because it isn't moldy outside. You can tell whether you are getting

air 'in' or letting air out by simply putting your hand up to opening

in window. If you open window slightly and you feel strong breeze

coming in, you are letting air into apartment or room. If you feel

air on back of hand you are letting air out and perhaps creating

negative air pressure in room, so you want to close window. You can

generally open windows in winter anytime and get fresh air IN. In

summer you have to be more discerning. Check the weather and see if

dewpoint is high or low and temperature, to see if you will be

dragging in humidity or not. If you can't feel any direction to air

with hand, there isn't a strong direction to air and you are better

off closing off window if you aren't sure whether it is coming in or

going out. As for remaining warm, just don't keep them open very

long, but you will have caused an air exchange in apartment. If you

feel the need for another one, do it again.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

> The smallest Fantexh and the (only) Panasonic unit are both fairly

> inexpensive and I think in a rental they might be lifesavers.. There

> is no other way to get enough fresh air in the winter and still

remain warm..

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a moldy, multi-story building that same stack effect you mentioned

will typically be carrying mold with it from inside the walls, at

least that was the experience I had in the apartment I got sick in.

That space was making me so ill that I needed continuous ventilation

there.. (and even that was not enough!)

With a heat recovery ventilator, you can retain 60% of the energy that

otherwise would be lost with the air leaving your apartment.. Also,

leaving a window open is not feasible for many people for security

reasons. Many buildings are so leaky that there is the quivalent of

open windows through the combined holes in the walls.. However, the

stack-effect and wind-driven air that comes in through those thousands

of tiny holes in your floors, walls, doors, ceiling, etc. is typically

very dusty, at best.

With powered ventilation, you control WHERE a large portion of your

air comes FROM.

[Guest guest]

If anybody in a multi-floor dwelling is curious about how much

pressure is carried within the walls, I suggest buying a number of

VERY THIN (that is important!) painters drop cloths (thin plastic is

very light!) and going around from room to room IN THE LATE AFTERNOON

OR EARLY EVENING on a sunny day and duct-taping it over openings,

FLOORS, WALLS, making sure to include some floor so you will get the

basebard/floor/wall interface..etc. to see which direction the air is

flowing..

You will often be surprised at HOW MUCH air is behind that sheet of

thin plastic and how much PRESSURE displaces it.

[Guest guest]

If you hold your hand at window opening and air is clearly coming in

you are bringing fresh air in, and it's not going to creat more mold

in your apartment, it's going to dilute what's there. We don't need

expensive gadgets to get air movement or displace stale air with

fresh air always. In summertime, you probably need a strategy and

maybe some equipment. In wintertime, just crack open the window.

Yes, if fresh air is coming in through cracks in walls, probably is

dusty, that's why air coming through the window is better. Just open

them enough to have some air exchanges or keep them cracked a very

tiny bit and put on a stand alone heater. Yes, it will cost more

than not bringing in fresh air but most things to combat mold will

cost you some money.

The heat recovery ventilators are supposed to be attached to ductwork

and run through your central air system anyway to distribute through

your house. If you have an apartment, you can't do that, so you

probably are sucking out air that the heat recovery unit just pulled

in since the duct openings will be right next to each other.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> In a moldy, multi-story building that same stack effect you

mentioned

> will typically be carrying mold with it from inside the walls, at

> least that was the experience I had in the apartment I got sick in.

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

The HRV manufacturers typically specify that the intake and exhaust

vents be at least six feet apart. In practice, however,

putting them less than that (say, one at one corner of the bottom of a

double hung window, and the other at the other corner of the top, or

better yet, in two different windows..maybe three or four feet apart,

and simply angling the vents in different directions is probably

adequate.

The ducts are a different matter. However, I am sure that most

apartment dwellers can figure out pretty ways to disguise (or

celebrate!) them..

In some circles, ducts are trendy.. Certainly, especially to US, the

FRESH air that they can sometimes bring is WELCOME..

Barb, don't forget, this is literally a matter of life or death...

Obviously, people living in city apartments who are paying below

market rate are being 'encouraged' to move by mold.

But IS THERE anywhere for them to move TO where they can BOTH afford

the rent and get around without a car? Where they can still get to

work without a whole new expense they probably can't afford? (auto,

car insurance, costs of keeping up with the joneses particular to

suburban lifestyle, etc.)

Older people, especially, often die after they have been forced to

move. They suddenly feel as if they are a burden (and they are,

without a home..) and the social service agencies that try to track

them find they often die..or disappear..

An older person living in a studio apartment in the city has a very

small energy footprint. Even if that person could afford to vacate

their apartment for some twentysomething to take at three times the

rent, they will still need to live somewhere. In cities, every space

is spoken for and expensive. In suburbs and exurbs, you need a car and

the costs of rent and food are probably higher than the old person was

payng because they are " market rate " (many urban rents are rent

stabilized)

So, any solution that will improve the IAQ for someone will save their

life.. Filters often have high consumables cost.. This leads older

people to not use them once they get dirty..$80 for a new HEPA filter

and prefilter may not sound like much.. (thats what the prefilter and

filter on my cheap but decent unit cost) but its a good sized chunk of

an older person's monthly income..

> The heat recovery ventilators are supposed to be attached to ductwork

> and run through your central air system anyway to distribute through

> your house.

I don't have central air and I didn't have a dedicated install when we

first bought the unit.. I tried it out by " installing " it in a

window.. it worked great.. although the two ducts snaking away from it

were strange looking.. However, that was just to see how it worked..

When I was in that moldy apartment, if I had known about HRVs, I would

have had one more option to making mysef healthier.. isn't that good?

If you have an apartment, you can't do that, so you

> probably are sucking out air that the heat recovery unit just pulled

> in since the duct openings will be right next to each other.

>

>

>>

>> In a moldy, multi-story building that same stack effect you

> mentioned

>> will typically be carrying mold with it from inside the walls, at

>> least that was the experience I had in the apartment I got sick in.

>>

>

[Guest guest]

-No air purifyer will help you, take that money and take a trip away

from your moldy place. The chances of your being better after the

remediation are slim-on that trip look for a new home.

-- In , " Moneca " <monecacolorado@...>

wrote:

>

> Until my landlord begins to remediate the mold situation I thought

I'd

> try to improve our symptoms with and air purifier. I just bought a UV-

C

> purifier and want to give it a go. I've been leaving all the windows

> open even at night to try to exchange the air. Should I still leave

the

> windows open or would shutting the house provide better results. Up

to

> this point keeping the house shut for the night )even if I open first

> thing in the morning) makes our symptoms much more severe.

>

> Thanks,

> Moneca

>