Re: Mold odor disappearing when mold is dead?

[Guest guest]

Judith,

Even if killing the mold stops the mold odor, odor from the mold is

not the only odor caused by mold.

Your experience points to a critical fact about mold:

It's not just about mold. It's about dampness and how

moisture affects the materials that get wet, what grows on

the surfaces of those damp materials, what becomes

airborne, how all that alters the occupied environment,

and how each individual is affected by those alterations.

Killing mold will stop the " ongoing " creation of VOCs but not any

of the other components or the effect of the VOCs. Such as, how

the VOCs react with other materials throughout the house. Think

" chemical reactions " and how different ones combine to form new

ones; which may continue to be detected by smell or by body

reactions. It is not uncommon for wood affected by dampness to

have odors other than the mold itself.

Two authoritative sources on the complexity of mold to start with:

1. Institute of Medicine " Damp Indoor Spaces and Health " , May

2004. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309091934

allows reading one page at a time. Available for purchase from

other sources also, like Amazon.

Chart on page 3 shows the relationships. I can e-mail a PDF of

the page for those that would like it.

On page 5, they specify:

" ...the dampness related emissions of fungal spores,

bacteria, and other particles of biological origin and their

role in human health outcomes; the microbial ecology of

buildings, that is, the link between dampness, different

building materials, microbial growth and microbial

interactions; and dampness related chemical emissions

from building materials and furnishings, and their role in

human health outcomes. "

2. American Industrial Hygiene Association " Recognition,

Evaluation, and Control of Indoor Mold. " June, 2008.

Chapter 14, " Remediation: Scope, Roles, and Risk

Communication " begins:

Epidemiologic evidence linking the presence of indoor

dampness with adverse health outcomes justifies

remediation of moisture and mold in buildings.

Page 13:

Indoor exposures are a complex mixture of molds,

bacteria, fragments of both types of organisms; their

multiple toxic products; and biologically derived small

particles, gases and other air pollutants. Effects,

depending on the susceptibility of the exposed occupants

and their degree of exposure, can be combinations of

allergic response, inflammation and its consequences,

and other toxiic responses. This complex exposure and

effect picture is not addressed by risk assessment

focused on spores or individual toxins.

Page 6, with " filth " previously described as

what is there, what settles from the air, and the waste products

generated from the life cycles of living, reproducing, and dying

mold and bacteria in dampness:

The implications of this research are that prevention of

unwanted moisture, and removal of filth caused by

moisture, is necessary to prevent disease.

Despite the difficulty implied by the above, also on page 6:

Formal intervention studies exist and support three

statements.

1. Moisture is the primary environmental condition

associated with disease.

2. Intervention is possible to resolve moisture problems

and subsequent biological contamination.

3. Intervention can resolve disease but requires careful

manipulation of the environment.

If any touted " remedy " - whether the one you experienced, or

ozone, or spraying chemicals, or painting over it, or super-dupper

air filters, or whatever - doesn't address ALL these factors, it

CANNOT and WILL NOT solve the entire problem.

Misting thieves oil or anything else may kill mold (questionable)

but live mold is but one part of the problem. Moisture is key and

removal of the " filth " is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, it's like

saying a cruise ship should kill the rats, but not address the filth

they thrive in which is caused by the ongoing dampness because

no one pluged the leak in the ship's hull.

It's all or nothing. And the more sensitized each of you us

becomes (on a scale from slight to disabling to life threatening)

the more difficult it is to stop " all " the moisture and to identify and

remove " enough " of the filth.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> I recently bought a cold mist diffuser and some " detox oil " from a

> Dr. in Washington State to try to get rid of a mild mold problem in a

> few cabinets in my kitchen. There had been a tiny, small leak under

> the sink for who knows how long, and some mold had grown, but the

> smell was mild to moderate--not a really bad mold problem. I had a

> plumber fix the leak and the damaged wood was removed. The

> dishwasher ws also removed so we could look behind it. Three lower

> cabinet areas smelled a little musty--under the sink, the dishwasher

> area, and the cabinet on the other side of the sink.

>

> The detox oil is equivalent to " Thieves Oil " (Young Living) and was

> supposed to be diffused into the air for 24 hours per room to kill

> mold. That is the only instructions I received.

>

> I put the diffuser right in each cabinet in turn, and kept diffusing

> for almost three weeks, using a total of twice the amount of oil that

> was supposed to treat my entire, small house and car. But the musty

> smell is still there in the cabinets. With the remainder of oil, I

> treated a small chair that was musty, for a couple of days. Nothing

> changed.

>

> I spent almost $200 on these items. The doctor's office insists that

> the oil will kill mold, but the smell will not go away until the mold

> is completely cleaned up, which I haven't done since I wanted to kill

> it off before getting in there.

>

> Is this scientifically correct? Does dead mold smell just the same

> as living mold? I had assumed it would no longer be producing

> volatile compounds, and the smell would go away to a great extent.

>

> The office was very uncooperative; I have to give them a 20%

> restocking fee and they will no longer send me anything. Just

> because I want to return some products that didn't seem to work as

> claimed, and asked questions. I even said I would write to this list

> and find out the scientific truth about musty smells continuing after

> mold is dead. That did not change their mind. This seems extremely

> unprofessional and unhelpful, but that's another topic.

>

> In any case, can some of the remediation experts tell me the truth

> about this? Does dead mold smell like living mold, or does the musty

> smell decrease significantly? Or does the mold have to be physically

> removed to clear out the odor?

>

> Thanks.

> Judith

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, thank you for taking the time to send this good information.

It partly answers my question. Of course, I want the mold problem to

be simple, and I know it isn't.

Let me be sure I understand: The musty and earthy odors can persist

even if the mold is killed, because there is an accumulation

of " filth " which must be removed. Is this true even if there is no

moisture, and has not been for months? As far as I can tell, the

moisture was gone and dried up long ago.

I guess I'm asking whether the remnants and filth can smell the same

as the mold when it was alive. And I realize there may not be any

simple answer. I wish there was one!

Judith

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> Judith,

>

> Even if killing the mold stops the mold odor, odor from the mold is

> not the only odor caused by mold.

>

> Your experience points to a critical fact about mold:

>

> It's not just about mold. It's about dampness and how

> moisture affects the materials that get wet, what grows on

> the surfaces of those damp materials, what becomes

> airborne, how all that alters the occupied environment,

> and how each individual is affected by those alterations.

>

> Killing mold will stop the " ongoing " creation of VOCs but not any

> of the other components or the effect of the VOCs. Such as, how

> the VOCs react with other materials throughout the house. Think

> " chemical reactions " and how different ones combine to form new

> ones; which may continue to be detected by smell or by body

> reactions. It is not uncommon for wood affected by dampness to

> have odors other than the mold itself.

>

> Two authoritative sources on the complexity of mold to start with:

>

> 1. Institute of Medicine " Damp Indoor Spaces and Health " , May

> 2004. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309091934

> allows reading one page at a time. Available for purchase from

> other sources also, like Amazon.

>

> Chart on page 3 shows the relationships. I can e-mail a PDF of

> the page for those that would like it.

>

> On page 5, they specify:

>

> " ...the dampness related emissions of fungal spores,

> bacteria, and other particles of biological origin and their

> role in human health outcomes; the microbial ecology of

> buildings, that is, the link between dampness, different

> building materials, microbial growth and microbial

> interactions; and dampness related chemical emissions

> from building materials and furnishings, and their role in

> human health outcomes. "

>

> 2. American Industrial Hygiene Association " Recognition,

> Evaluation, and Control of Indoor Mold. " June, 2008.

>

> Chapter 14, " Remediation: Scope, Roles, and Risk

> Communication " begins:

>

> Epidemiologic evidence linking the presence of indoor

> dampness with adverse health outcomes justifies

> remediation of moisture and mold in buildings.

>

> Page 13:

>

> Indoor exposures are a complex mixture of molds,

> bacteria, fragments of both types of organisms; their

> multiple toxic products; and biologically derived small

> particles, gases and other air pollutants. Effects,

> depending on the susceptibility of the exposed occupants

> and their degree of exposure, can be combinations of

> allergic response, inflammation and its consequences,

> and other toxiic responses. This complex exposure and

> effect picture is not addressed by risk assessment

> focused on spores or individual toxins.

>

> Page 6, with " filth " previously described as

> what is there, what settles from the air, and the waste products

> generated from the life cycles of living, reproducing, and dying

> mold and bacteria in dampness:

>

> The implications of this research are that prevention of

> unwanted moisture, and removal of filth caused by

> moisture, is necessary to prevent disease.

>

> Despite the difficulty implied by the above, also on page 6:

>

> Formal intervention studies exist and support three

> statements.

>

> 1. Moisture is the primary environmental condition

> associated with disease.

> 2. Intervention is possible to resolve moisture problems

> and subsequent biological contamination.

> 3. Intervention can resolve disease but requires careful

> manipulation of the environment.

>

> If any touted " remedy " - whether the one you experienced, or

> ozone, or spraying chemicals, or painting over it, or super-dupper

> air filters, or whatever - doesn't address ALL these factors, it

> CANNOT and WILL NOT solve the entire problem.

>

> Misting thieves oil or anything else may kill mold (questionable)

> but live mold is but one part of the problem. Moisture is key and

> removal of the " filth " is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, it's

like

> saying a cruise ship should kill the rats, but not address the

filth

> they thrive in which is caused by the ongoing dampness because

> no one pluged the leak in the ship's hull.

>

> It's all or nothing. And the more sensitized each of you us

> becomes (on a scale from slight to disabling to life threatening)

> the more difficult it is to stop " all " the moisture and to identify

and

> remove " enough " of the filth.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

>

[Guest guest]

Carl, I recently moved and there have been water issues in the

building but not in my apartment as far as I know. Recently the place

was remodeled, new everything. But when I come into the apartment

from outside a dust odor hits me in the face mainly when the air is

on. The apartment is not dusty at all. I cleaned the intake vent,

there is only one. They have a filter inside it and a clean cover. I

took off the filter and there was some dirt in there but no moisture

so I wiped it. Would like to vacuum in there but didn't want to use

my vacuum cleaner. Then I put a new filter back on that the

maintenance man gave me. I don't notice the dusty odor as much while

I am here mainly when I enter. Any suggestions, I have some different

cut out thin filters I was thinking of putting over vents. The air is

quite forceful in the livingroom, a little weaker in the other

rooms.The building is older, usually I have been in newer apartments

but didn't get to do that this time. Had to move quickly. And of

course a little worried about the water problems since I have been

here since Aug 1. I wrote about that earlier. Thanks for any input,

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

>