Re: Can we be reacting to VOCs or mycotoxins with a negative spore count?

[Guest guest]

This is a very good question and one I'd like to know the answer to,

also. Thanks for posting it. I believe we do react to both mycotoxins

and VOC's and they are equally dangerous....

~Dana

--- In , " Moneca " <monecacolorado@...>

wrote:

>

> I'm hoping someone with and extensive knowledge of mold toxicity

can

> help me out here. We had a professional mold inspector come out

with

> his dog trained to pick up on VOCs of several hundred molds. The

dog

> found a hot spot. There was physical evidence of old water damage

at

> that spot, but currently was dry to the touch and had no external

> evidence of mold .He did an air sample at that spot and a control

> outside. The results came back negative for spores and no change

> between the indoor air sample and the outdoor control.

> So without spores could our phlegm, headache, and dizziness be

produced

> by the VOCs? It seems from what I've been reading that with a

negative

> spore count you couldn't have mycotoxins to react to.

>

> Any help figuring this out would be appreciated.

>

> Moneca

>

[Guest guest]

I'm am not an expert, but I just had some thoughts on this..

On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Moneca <monecacolorado@...> wrote:

>

> I'm hoping someone with and extensive knowledge of mold toxicity can

> help me out here. We had a professional mold inspector come out with

> his dog trained to pick up on VOCs of several hundred molds.

Thats what he said, not mold itself? I bet the dog would also smell mold. Y

ou're right, if its dry, there wouldn't be VOCs, but a dog that could

smell mold and its products,

might react, probably for quite a while afterward.. there..

There might be an issue there..

> The dog

> found a hot spot. There was physical evidence of old water damage at

> that spot, but currently was dry to the touch and had no external

> evidence of mold .

What do you mean? Is the building making people sick?

>

> He did an air sample at that spot and a control

> outside. The results came back negative for spores

Just about every place on Earth has some spores.

> and no change

> between the indoor air sample and the outdoor control.

There were zero spores both inside and outside?

Carl or Jeff would be the experts on this but my gut feeling is that

the raw number of spores is a fairly meaningless figure without knowing

what kind of spores there are.. but that said its my understanding

that typically raw

spore counts will be lower inside of healthy buildings than outside.

>

> So without spores could our phlegm, headache, and dizziness be produced

> by the VOCs?

VOCS do do that.. old mold does too..

> It seems from what I've been reading that with a negative

> spore count you couldn't have mycotoxins to react to.

>

That isn't true at all.. Especially for stachybotrys.. which rarely

sporulates..still, it sheds toxins..

Fungal fragments are the part that goes the deepest into lungs.. they

are not microscopically identifiable.. you need QPCR .. like ERMI,

etc..

> Any help figuring this out would be appreciated.

>

>

Please don't take my answer as authoritative.. I am just stating what

I think, I'm not an expert...

Jeff and Carl are experts, and they could give you a better answer..

[Guest guest]

Moneca,

We've talked privately but I think your question is an important

one of interest to the group. So my response is written as much

for them as for you.

Yes, to both spores and mycotoxins, plus a lot more.

The latest book on mold and water damage ( " Recognition,

Evaluation, and Control of Indoor Mold " by AIHA) doesn't even

limit the issues to mold spores, MOVCs and mycotoxins. But a

long list including the fragments of the above plus bacteria and its

fragments and what both are made of. Plus chemical releases

from the water damaged materials - which are more VOCs - and

particles which are released. They have generally recategorized

all this as " filth caused by moisture " and it needs to be removed

as part of a responsible public health response.

They also take the position that it doesn't make any difference

whether you are reacting to the spore, gulcan, mycotoxin,

enzyme, protein, proteinase, bacteria, endotoxin or anything else.

It doesn't change the fact it needs to be removed.

As for the lack of mold spores meaning the lack of mycotoxins,

that's not true either. The hyphal fragments (the " plant " part of the

mold that produces the " seeds " we call spores) can contain

mycotoxins. Also, if he found no spores outside either then

something is wrong with the sampling.

If he really meant there were more spores outside then inside

then there were spores inside. They were just reported as " not a

problem " or something like that. Comparison of inside to outside

with no other information or comparisons is insufficient to

determine " problem " or " no problem. "

We know little also because it depends on what species were

inside and outside. If on species of Aspergillus are inside but

another species outside spore traps will only identify it as

Penicillium/Aspergillus-type spores. Spore traps cannot identify

mold to the species level. If must be cultured. By the time you get

all this testing done the problem could have been fixed.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> This is a very good question and one I'd like to know the answer to,

> also. Thanks for posting it. I believe we do react to both mycotoxins

> and VOC's and they are equally dangerous....

>

> ~Dana

>

>

>

> >

> > I'm hoping someone with and extensive knowledge of mold toxicity

> can

> > help me out here. We had a professional mold inspector come out

> with

> > his dog trained to pick up on VOCs of several hundred molds. The

> dog

> > found a hot spot. There was physical evidence of old water damage

> at

> > that spot, but currently was dry to the touch and had no external

> > evidence of mold .He did an air sample at that spot and a control

> > outside. The results came back negative for spores and no change

> > between the indoor air sample and the outdoor control.

> > So without spores could our phlegm, headache, and dizziness be

> produced

> > by the VOCs? It seems from what I've been reading that with a

> negative

> > spore count you couldn't have mycotoxins to react to.

> >

> > Any help figuring this out would be appreciated.

> >

> > Moneca

> >

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Speaking from personal experience VOC's alone can have serious

effects on my health. Think about a new car smell: I haven't been able

to drive a new car I bought for a year and a half now because the

VOC's (from the carpet glue, I think) have been overpowering. I get a

sore throat, nausau, my eyes burn and tear and finally a huge migraine.

We do not give VOC's the same credit as mold but we should-they are

powerful and deadly.

> I'm hoping someone with and extensive knowledge of mold toxicity can

> help me out here. We had a professional mold inspector come out with

> his dog trained to pick up on VOCs of several hundred molds. The dog

> found a hot spot. There was physical evidence of old water damage at

> that spot, but currently was dry to the touch and had no external

> evidence of mold .He did an air sample at that spot and a control

> outside. The results came back negative for spores and no change

> between the indoor air sample and the outdoor control.

> So without spores could our phlegm, headache, and dizziness be produced

> by the VOCs? It seems from what I've been reading that with a negative

> spore count you couldn't have mycotoxins to react to.

>

> Any help figuring this out would be appreciated.

>

> Moneca

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your response.

Yes, the dog only picks up on VOCs according to her owner. When I

posted I had only talked to the mold detector and not actually seen

the report. He said " no spores " , but I'm sure he was just trying to

quickly communicate to me that there was nothing significant.

The printed test results actually showed slight spores levels in a

variation of different types of molds, but indoor results were less

than the outdoor control. We live at 8000 ft in the mountains of

Colorado so we're not exactly in a wet climate.

Moneca

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> I'm am not an expert, but I just had some thoughts on this..

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Carl. Yes, you are correct that the printed report actually

showed a variety of both indoor and outdoor spores at minimal levels.

It was just a phone conversation we had when " no spores " was

mentioned.

Moneca

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> Moneca,

>

> We've talked privately but I think your question is an important

> one of interest to the group. So my response is written as much

> for them as for you.

>

> Yes, to both spores and mycotoxins, plus a lot more.

>

[Guest guest]

You're right about different VOCs causing issues. The perplexing

thing in all this to me is that I'm not allergic or sensitive to

anything and honestly never feel bad or have any symptoms of

allergies. That is why I expected to have lots of spores on the mold

test. I really expected the mold to be detectable in large quantities

since I'm having symptoms.

Moneca

--- In , " surellabaer " <surellabaer@...>

wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

I've been a lurker for quite some time now. I really appreciate all

the information and expertise offered here.

I started researching IAQ, molds, health issues, etc., because my

children were having adverse health effects from their school, that

has had water intrusion since the day it opened---for fourteen years.

I now home school my children and my sister's children, who also have

health problems associated with the building. Many of the problems

have gotten better since they do not go there now. (Isn't that

amazing?)

Miraculously, the school does not have a mold problem (said

sarcasticly)---but there are many, many students and teachers that

are sick. Of course, the school isn't fixing the problem.

This discussion on VOC's and mycotoxins is drawing me out of lurkdom.

In my research, I've read that there's really no such thing as " dead

spores " ---that they are just as damaging as " active " or reproducing

spores---many times even putting out DIFFERENT mycotoxins in

the " dormant " state than the active state.

It would make sense that this would also pertain to all the parts---

hyphae, bacteria, etc.

Then, when you think of all the different ones mixing----oh my!!!!

[Guest guest]

Moneca,

I want you and the group to know that the " no spores " opinion

was totally wrong. There were spores. It is true the inside was

nearly the same as the outside. BUT the inside spores were

mostly different than the outside spores, and where they were the

same several were higher indoors than the same type outdoors.

This strongly indicates an inside source of active mold growth.

Inside and outside being the same types with lower indoors

indicates one ecology with a transfer rate from outside to inside.

Different profiles of spores indicates two separte ecologies.

Because of the health complaints you and your child have, any

level could be causing the problem - even according to the

conservative CDC and EPA postitions.

I'm posting this part of my opinion publically instead of just

privately to illustrate why the issue mold sampling and the

INTERPRETATION of results is so absolutely critical.

Because the inspector said " no spores " the landlord backed off of

doing anything. And wouldn't you? But even if " no spores " were

accurate, " spores counts " are not the determining factor. They

may be only one piece of the puzzle.

That's like saying if you don't see any bear dung in the woods

there can't be any bears.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Thank you for your response.

>

> Yes, the dog only picks up on VOCs according to her owner. When I

> posted I had only talked to the mold detector and not actually seen

> the report. He said " no spores " , but I'm sure he was just trying to

> quickly communicate to me that there was nothing significant.

>

> The printed test results actually showed slight spores levels in a

> variation of different types of molds, but indoor results were less

> than the outdoor control. We live at 8000 ft in the mountains of

> Colorado so we're not exactly in a wet climate.

>

> Moneca

>

>

> >

> > I'm am not an expert, but I just had some thoughts on this..

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>