Re: Bystander effect radiation damage (new paper in PNAS) may also apply to mycotoxin damage to cells..

[Guest guest]

It seems to me that the unique atomic structure of radioisotopes is responsible.

They decay, and emit energy during the process. This energy is what causes the

damage. It is probably foolish for the biologists to think that they can target

only one cell when by it's very physical nature, a radioisotope is unstable and

by definition affects the field around them.

Even though we often describe the mycotoxic effect to be akin to radioactivity,

it is really not at all like that. There is something else entirely going on on

the physical level.

From: LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

Subject: [] " Bystander effect " radiation damage (new paper in PNAS)

may also apply to mycotoxin damage to cells..

, " iequality " <iequality >,

" Sharon Kramer " <snk1955@...>, quackadillian@...

Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 10:05 PM

Just a heads-up, a paper recently published in PNAS about a " bystander

effect " causing " collateral damage " to mouse brain cells, may

(IMO probably)

also applies to mycotoxin-induced damage to brain and probably other cells..

Read the abstract below..

Oncogenic bystander radiation effects in *Patched* heterozygous mouse

cerebellum

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/34/12445

Abstract

The central dogma of radiation biology, that biological effects of ionizing

radiation are a direct consequence of DNA damage occurring in irradiated

cells, has been challenged by observations that genetic/epigenetic changes

occur in unexposed " bystander cells " neighboring directly-hit cells,

due

[Guest guest]

No, that is not what this is about.. There is something else going on,

something we don't as yet understand.. Cells that were NOT AT ALL DIRECTLY

IRRADIATED die.. they call this the " bystander effect " and it cannot be the

radiation, so much as the death of OTHER cells, that triggers it.

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 11:13 AM, bs clayton <kl_clayton@...> wrote:

> It seems to me that the unique atomic structure of radioisotopes is

> responsible. They decay, and emit energy during the process. This energy is

> what causes the damage. It is probably foolish for the biologists to think

> that they can target only one cell when by it's very physical nature, a

> radioisotope is unstable and by definition affects the field around them.

>

> Even though we often describe the mycotoxic effect to be akin to

> radioactivity, it is really not at all like that. There is something else

> entirely going on on the physical level.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Re: drawing parallels between radiation and stachybotrys/trichothecene

survivors issues..

To give newcomers some IMPORTANT context, according to Ueno, Croft, and many

others, a large number of mold effects are said to be " radiomimetic " because

they are indistinguishable from radiation-induced cell and immune system

damage.

Similar kinds of damage are caused by chemotherapeutic drugs used in cancer

treatment. (many of which are basically mycotoxins or structural analogs of

mycotoxins)

For example, I have a spectrum of GI issues that seem to mimic problems seen

in radiation therapy or chemotherapy..

My gall bladder had issues seen in chemotherapy and radiation survivors..

My neuro issues mimic the often seen " chemo brain " cancer chemo survivors

experience

(and atom bomb survivors reported)

This is an important connection- and CLUE, that is largely being

overlooked..

[Guest guest]

Live theres nothing being overlooked. did you read the article on

urban air? do you think that maybe there are plenty of

toxins/chemicals and even myco's involved there? dose,dose,dose and

what happens to the immune system with toxic liver/system overload.

plain and simple. many recover from chemotheropy unless they have

some organ damage or immune problems and a moldy ass hospital and

fungi gets in and takes over while their immune systems or even more

suppressed. fungi doesn't mix well with other diseases,

viruses,bacteria's,parisites,ect. it's not all about the myco's.

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Re: drawing parallels between radiation and

stachybotrys/trichothecene

> survivors issues..

>

>

[Guest guest]

PS LIVE

I'D BE MORE CAREFUL OF WHO YOU GET INFO. FROM!

> >

> > Re: drawing parallels between radiation and

> stachybotrys/trichothecene

> > survivors issues..

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:17 PM, who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> PS LIVE

>

> I'D BE MORE CAREFUL OF WHO YOU GET INFO. FROM!

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean.

I think that there is a strong connection between the effects of

chemotherapy drugs like cyclosporin and

some kinds of mycotoxicoses. That seems obvious, given the chemistry

and the similarities in known effects.

Also, some strains of stachybotrys contains a form of cyclosporin.

This could in and of itself explain many deleterious effects..

But most importantly, we need to be very cautious, because the odds

are that some WDB situations are very dangerous in many ways at the

same time.

Its like standing in a building containing a huge arsenal of

ammunition, and its on fire. Any one of the many different kinds of

bullets could kill you or wound you, and gettng hit by one in no way

reduces the odds of your getting hit by another elsewhere.

Its a random distribution that multiplies exponentially as moisture,

food and time increases.

So, I don't see how *anybody* could possibly reasonably lump all kinds

of mold exposures together and

say that " its this but not this " . That sounds like wishful thinking.

In fact, that is exactly the term Dr. Kilburn used.

Ive had a lot of discussions about neurotoxicity including one with

Dr. Kaye Kilburn

who is probably the leading expert on this issue, and he basically

said that some kinds of mold neuro damage doesn't resolve,

(however, some people manage to adapt to it, adapt to the losses) others don't.

He has a LARGE body of statistical information.

There are thousands of known toxic substances in the thousands of

categorized fungi, and probably millions of fungi.

that have not yet been named, placed into taxonomies, etc.

Its important to realize this is a very complex problem. They keep

discovering new fungi and new mycotoxins all the time.

Some are very powerful. Others are benign. In any moldy building,

there are thousands of different colonies many with more than one mold

growing on top of each other.

Just looking at cyclosporin, that is a powerful immunosuppressant. And

it is a product of many different kinds of fungi, including some

strains of stachybotrys.. And thats just one family of the literal

army of toxins - water damaged building toxins.. .

Especially see

J Antibiot (Tokyo), 1993 Dec, 46(12), 1788 - 98

FR901459, a novel immunosuppressant isolated from Stachybotrys

chartarum No . 19392 . Taxonomy of the producing organism,

fermentation, isolation, physico-chemical properties and biological

activities; Sakamoto K et al.;

FR901459, a novel immunosuppressant, has been isolated from the

fermentation broth of Stachybotrys chartarum No . 19392 . The

molecular formula of FR901459 was determined as C62H111N11O13 .

FR901459 was found to be a member of the cyclosporin family . However,

it is structurally distinct from any other cyclosporins discovered so

far, in that Leu is present at position 5 instead of Val . FR901459

was capable of prolonging the survival time of skin allografts in rats

with one third the potency of cyclosporin A.

http://www.journalarchive.jst.go.jp/jnlpdf.php?cdjournal=antibiotics1968 & cdvol=4\

6 & noissue=12 & startpage=1788 & lang=en & from=jnltoc

Mold Growth on Building Materials (122 pg PDF describing some of the

better known metabolites that grow on common building materials)

http://www.sbi.dk/indeklima/fugt-skimmel/mould-growth-on-building-materials/moul\

d-growth-on-building-materials/2006-01-12.6153316360

stachybotrys toxins. 1

Bruce B. Jarvis *, Salemme, Anselmo Morals

Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of land,

Collese Park, land

*Correspondence to Bruce B. Jarvis, Department of Chemistry and

Biochemistry, University of land, College Park, MD 20742

Funded by:

National Institutes of Health; Grant Number: RO1-GM43724

Keywords

Satratoxins • Phenylspirodrimanes • Immunosuppressant • Macrocyclic

trichothecenes

Abstract

Cultures of several isolates of Stachybotrys chartarum have produced a

series of cytotoxic macrocyclic trichothecenes including two newly

characterized conseners: isosatratoxin G and S-isosatratoxin H. Nine

immunosuppressant phenylspirodrimanes (1-9) were isolated and

characterized, the majority of which are newly reported compounds. ©

1995 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Received: 2 August 1994; Accepted: 12 September 1994

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)

10.1002/nt.2620030104 About DOI

Title:

Cyclosporin alkynes and their utility as pharmaceutical agents

Document Type and Number:

United States Patent 7361636

Abstract:

The compounds of the present invention are represented by the chemical

structure found in Formula I:

embedded image

or a pharmaceutically acceptable salt thereof,

with X, R0, and R1 defined herein.

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>

>

>> >

>> > Re: drawing parallels between radiation and

>> stachybotrys/trichothecene

>> > survivors issues..

>> >

>> >

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Live, I think you took what I said out of text, I'm not sure of your

point here, I think we all know that myco's can harm health. you need

to understand there's a lot more to it than that. you might be

waiting a long time if your thinking we well ever know and detect

everything we were exposed to. toxic effects are toxic effects, total

body load,TILT,ect. I prefer to look at the big picture and work with

whats known which is actually quite a bit if you can read between the

line and compare. if you dont think our immune system and matabolism

cant also cause some major harm along what happens to us with these

exposures, your wrong.

, LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

>

> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:17 PM, who <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> > PS LIVE

> >

> > I'D BE MORE CAREFUL OF WHO YOU GET INFO. FROM!

>

> I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean.

>

> I think that there is a strong connection between the effects of

> chemotherapy drugs like cyclosporin and

> some kinds of mycotoxicoses. That seems obvious, given the chemistry

> and the similarities in known effects.

>