Dr.

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 6, 2006

Suze-

>Was it enterically coated? If not, was it in capsule form? If so, what was

>the capsule made of? I'd love to report this back to .

The only time I ever tried enterically coated pancreatin, it caused

major gastric distress. The bulk of my experience has been with

Lipanase, which isn't enterically coated but is in tablet form, but I

experienced the exact same thing on a few occasions with pancreatin

in a gelcap.

-

January 6, 2006

> The only time I ever tried enterically coated pancreatin, it caused

> major gastric distress. The bulk of my experience has been with

> Lipanase, which isn't enterically coated but is in tablet form, but I

> experienced the exact same thing on a few occasions with pancreatin

> in a gelcap.

,

Lemme get this straight: you say no pancreatin on empty stomach?

Suze thinks it's okay?

So do the exogenous enzymes get recycled, too?

B.

January 6, 2006

-

>Well, it was suggested to me by Ron--Schmid--that EVERYONE can benefit

>from pancreatin supplementation. Part of his live-forever protocol

>and he takes them himself for this reason. Yes, it was a hard-sell.

Do you know what the basis for his argument is? Howell?

>Is that not the $64,000 question? I have a long and ugly history of

>carb/processed-food abuse. While I don't see myself getting

>cancer--are we talking any cancer or pancreatic cancer?--my BIL has

>pancreatic cancer and it indeed functions as an aversion therapy for me.

I meant cancer generally, or at least endothelial cancers, per

's lecture, which I haven't had time to follow up on.

>Well I do hate to take up your precious time...

I don't know that anyone could rationally call my time " precious " ,

but it's definitely been sucked up lately by a parade of stressful

absurdities. Hence my backlog of email and other things I shouldn't

be behind on.

-

January 6, 2006

-

> > The only time I ever tried enterically coated pancreatin, it caused

> > major gastric distress. The bulk of my experience has been with

> > Lipanase, which isn't enterically coated but is in tablet form, but I

> > experienced the exact same thing on a few occasions with pancreatin

> > in a gelcap.

>

>,

>Lemme get this straight: you say no pancreatin on empty stomach?

>

>Suze thinks it's okay?

Suze is probably mostly talking about non-pancreatic

enzymes. Pancreatin includes pancreating proteases, pancreatic

lipases and pancreatic amylases.

There are various non-pancreatic proteases sold for various

purposes. Bromelain, for example, is touted for inflammation,

asthma, and other problems, and maybe be effective for at least some

of them in some people, but it's also very potent at breaking down

tissue, so it can be dangerous to take on an empty

stomach. Nattokinase is sold for heart health and clotting problems,

and my understanding is that it's extraordinarily effective, so for

some people at least, it's almost certainly a good

thing. Serrapeptase is supposed to break down and help flush away

" dead " tissue, scar tissue and other undesirable stuff in the

body. There's at least some evidence that it does this, and so for

some people at least it might be indicated even though its effects on

the digestive tract aren't entirely known. And so on.

>So do the exogenous enzymes get recycled, too?

Probably depends on the type and the person, but most or maybe even

all enzymes should be absorbed to at least some extent. The question

is whether they do too much damage to the gut if taken without food

to be worthwhile -- and whether they're used up and/or digested and

thus not absorbed and used for other purposes if taken with food.

-

January 8, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of downwardog7

>

>> The only time I ever tried enterically coated pancreatin, it caused

>> major gastric distress. The bulk of my experience has been with

>> Lipanase, which isn't enterically coated but is in tablet form, but I

>> experienced the exact same thing on a few occasions with pancreatin

>> in a gelcap.

>

>,

>Lemme get this straight: you say no pancreatin on empty stomach?

>

>Suze thinks it's okay?

I think it's *conditionally* OK depending on the health of the gut. For

instance, it's the main ingredient in Wobenzym which seems to have helped a

lot of people and pets. And doesn't Dr. give large doses of

*systemic* pancreatic enzymes to his cancer patients? I thought that was his

major tool in fighthing cancer.

>

>So do the exogenous enzymes get recycled, too?

> B.

Yes, from what I've read.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 8, 2006

Suze-

>I think it's *conditionally* OK depending on the health of the gut.

Actually, there's also a big difference between taking pancreatin --

which the body is constructed to handle -- and foreign enzymes the

body doesn't have elaborate resources to deal with.

> For

>instance, it's the main ingredient in Wobenzym

I don't think I'd call pancreating the _main_ ingredient. Here's a list:

Ingredients: Rutin (Rutoside) (150 mg) (3 H2O), Papain (180 mg) (492

FIP-unit), Bromelain (135 mg) (675 FIP-Unit), Pancreatin (300 mg)

(56,000 USP), Trypsin (72 mg) (2,160 FIP-unit), Chymotrypsin (3 mg)

(900 FIP-Unit)

Papain and bromelain are both extremely potent foreign proteases.

>And doesn't Dr. give large doses of

>*systemic* pancreatic enzymes to his cancer patients? I thought that was his

>major tool in fighthing cancer.

The body has plenty of resources for preventing actual pancreatic

enzymes from digesting blood and other internal tissues. A very

compromised gut might not have all of those resources available, but

pancreatin is definitely something the body has many mechanisms in

place to handle, unlike plenty of other enzymes.

-

January 8, 2006

,

> The body has plenty of resources for preventing actual pancreatic

> enzymes from digesting blood and other internal tissues. A very

> compromised gut might not have all of those resources available, but

> pancreatin is definitely something the body has many mechanisms in

> place to handle, unlike plenty of other enzymes.

Thus taking pancreatin on an empty stomach gets the Idol-nod? Is that

what you're saying?

B.

January 8, 2006

-

>Thus taking pancreatin on an empty stomach gets the Idol-nod? Is that

>what you're saying?

Not necessarily... It depends on the purpose. You could try it, but

the more questionable the status of your gut, the greater the risk.

-

January 8, 2006

On 1/5/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>. However, as cited several

> studies showing that pancreatin is destroyed by stomach acid, YET

> was adament that they are not and also cited several studies. >Maybe

> different products were used in different studies? The heck I know. But I do

> think Dipan-9 survives stomach acid because my one dog who's never been a

> good digester does better on the enzymes than off. But then again she also

> gets Bio-Gest with HCl, pancreatin and ox-bile at the same time. So I'm not

> really sure if that's the one she relies on the most for good digestion.

Enzymes do not EVER to my knowledge get destroyed by stomach acid.

This denaturing is reversed by changing pH to ideal pH.

That's not the point. Enzymes get digested by proteases! Enzymes are

proteins, and proteases digest proteins.

That's why trypsin, which is used in cell line experiments to wash a

cell line briefly and liberate the cells from the bottom of the dish

to which they are attached, has an expiration date, and has to be kept

in the freezer -- because it digests itself.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

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January 8, 2006

On 1/6/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> I've tried pancreatin with and without supplementary HCl, and it

> always makes a difference regardless, so at least some of it is

> definitely surviving.

Yeah, because you don't have any stomach acid! Using them without the

HCl makes it clear that the benefit isn't due to the HCl, but it also

means that any destruction that would normally occur in the stomach

can't because of the lack of HCl.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

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January 8, 2006

Chris-

>Enzymes do not EVER to my knowledge get destroyed by stomach acid.

>This denaturing is reversed by changing pH to ideal pH.

No enzyme is ever destroyed by stomach acid? Is there some reason

all enzymes are unique in this regard, since many other proteins do

not (to my knowledge) spontaneously reassemble their globular

structure upon being returned to their ideal pHs? Or did I totally

miss the boat somewhere WRT the behaviour of acid-denatured proteins

in returned-to-ideal pH?

-

January 8, 2006

Chris-

> > I've tried pancreatin with and without supplementary HCl, and it

> > always makes a difference regardless, so at least some of it is

> > definitely surviving.

>

>Yeah, because you don't have any stomach acid! Using them without the

>HCl makes it clear that the benefit isn't due to the HCl, but it also

>means that any destruction that would normally occur in the stomach

>can't because of the lack of HCl.

I meant that for me, pancreatin contributes its own distinct benefit

with or without heaps-o supplementary HCl. IOW, since I derive the

same benefit from pancreatin with or without stomach acid, stomach

acid is obviously not completely destroying it.

-

January 8, 2006

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Masterjohn

>

>On 1/5/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>

>>. However, as cited several

>> studies showing that pancreatin is destroyed by stomach acid,

>YET

>> was adament that they are not and also cited several

>studies. >Maybe

>> different products were used in different studies? The heck I

>know. But I do

>> think Dipan-9 survives stomach acid because my one dog who's never been a

>> good digester does better on the enzymes than off. But then

>again she also

>> gets Bio-Gest with HCl, pancreatin and ox-bile at the same time.

>So I'm not

>> really sure if that's the one she relies on the most for good digestion.

>

>Enzymes do not EVER to my knowledge get destroyed by stomach acid.

>This denaturing is reversed by changing pH to ideal pH.

I had wondered about that. What are you basing that statement on?

>

>That's not the point. Enzymes get digested by proteases! Enzymes are

>proteins, and proteases digest proteins.

How do you know? Apparenty they don't ALL get digested otherwise they would

be totally ineffectual, which clearly they are not. Perhaps it depends on

the type and potency of the enzymes?

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 8, 2006

On 1/8/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> >Enzymes do not EVER to my knowledge get destroyed by stomach acid.

> >This denaturing is reversed by changing pH to ideal pH.

>

> No enzyme is ever destroyed by stomach acid? Is there some reason

> all enzymes are unique in this regard, since many other proteins do

> not (to my knowledge) spontaneously reassemble their globular

> structure upon being returned to their ideal pHs? Or did I totally

> miss the boat somewhere WRT the behaviour of acid-denatured proteins

> in returned-to-ideal pH?

I think you missed the boat. In general the only thing that

permanently denatures a protein is heat, and I've never gotten a clear

answer on why this is. There are some exceptions, but that is the

general rule.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 8, 2006

On 1/8/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> I meant that for me, pancreatin contributes its own distinct benefit

> with or without heaps-o supplementary HCl. IOW, since I derive the

> same benefit from pancreatin with or without stomach acid, stomach

> acid is obviously not completely destroying it.

I have no particular reason to think that all of it would be destroyed

by stomach acid as I've never seen the studies one way or another, but

it seems to me unreliable to use you or me as an example because of

hypochloridia. Your HCl may or may not be bringing your stomach to

ideal stomach pH, but in any case couldn't it be that a similar

benefit is conferred by idealizing your pH and enzyme situation in

your stomach, as is conferred by idealizing your enzyme situation in

your intestine, such that it would be difficult to clearly sense the

difference between the two effects?

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

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January 8, 2006

On 1/8/06, Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

> >Enzymes do not EVER to my knowledge get destroyed by stomach acid.

> >This denaturing is reversed by changing pH to ideal pH.

>

> I had wondered about that. What are you basing that statement on?

Textbooks on denaturing. I think it's in _Molecular Biology fo the Cell._

> >That's not the point. Enzymes get digested by proteases! Enzymes are

> >proteins, and proteases digest proteins.

>

> How do you know?

How do I know what? That proteases digest proteins? Because that's

what they are named after. Prote-ases. And, like I said, trypsin

digests trypsin which is why you have to freeze it.

> Apparenty they don't ALL get digested otherwise they would

> be totally ineffectual, which clearly they are not. Perhaps it depends on

> the type and potency of the enzymes?

Yes, I believe it depends on the type of enzyme. Dr. s said

that he did research showing that lactase survives the stomach. But I

know that trypsin digests itself and I think that trypsin is in

pancreatin and that trypsin is also in the stomach with pepsin. I'm

not saying they would digest each other to the point where taking them

is ineffectual, I'm just saying there is going to be SOME degree of

digestion of the enzymes going on. What degree, I have absolutely no

idea.

And some enzymes are probably designed to be resistant to proteases in

the stomach. We would expect both lingual enzymes and milk enzymes to

be so designed, because they are designed to feed into the stomach.

There's no reason to expect pancreatic intestine-destined enzymes to

be so designed, because they aren't intended to go through the

stomach. There still could be some inherent resistance I guess.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 10, 2006

Chris-

>I think you missed the boat. In general the only thing that

>permanently denatures a protein is heat, and I've never gotten a clear

>answer on why this is. There are some exceptions, but that is the

>general rule.

Interesting. So acid never cleaves a protein?

I'm trying to remember whether I ever tried to alkalinize the pH of

egg whites after denaturing them in acid... Maybe not.

-

January 10, 2006

Chris-

>Your HCl may or may not be bringing your stomach to

>ideal stomach pH

Possible.

>but in any case couldn't it be that a similar

>benefit is conferred by idealizing your pH and enzyme situation in

>your stomach, as is conferred by idealizing your enzyme situation in

>your intestine, such that it would be difficult to clearly sense the

>difference between the two effects?

No, the effects are quite distinct.

-

January 10, 2006

On 1/10/06, Idol <Idol@...> wrote:

> Chris-

>

> >I think you missed the boat. In general the only thing that

> >permanently denatures a protein is heat, and I've never gotten a clear

> >answer on why this is. There are some exceptions, but that is the

> >general rule.

>

> Interesting. So acid never cleaves a protein?

I'm not sure why acid would cleave a protein -- I don't see a hydrogen

ion having attractive force great enough to break a peptide bond. But

acid does interfere with the hydrogen bonds and other weaker

attractive forces within the 3-d structure of the protein that hold

that structure together. However, experiments with detergents, which

can, like acid, completely unfold a protein, indicate that all the

information necessary to form the 3-d protein is completely contained

within the primary structure (amino acid sequence) of the protein.

It will generally fold back into original shape in ideal conditions,

but because of variations from the idea complete and correct refolding

of all of the proteins may be somewhat unreliable without the

molecular proteins of the cell.

But in general enzymes are made to turn on and turn off as they go

through different pHs.

And, so as not to waste a second posting, I acknowledge your

distinction between the effect of HCl and pepsin.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

January 10, 2006

>

>I'm not sure why acid would cleave a protein -- I don't see a hydrogen

>ion having attractive force great enough to break a peptide bond. But

>acid does interfere with the hydrogen bonds and other weaker

>attractive forces within the 3-d structure of the protein that hold

>that structure together. However, experiments with detergents, which

>can, like acid, completely unfold a protein, indicate that all the

>information necessary to form the 3-d protein is completely contained

>within the primary structure (amino acid sequence) of the protein.

<snip>

>And, so as not to waste a second posting, I acknowledge your

>distinction between the effect of HCl and pepsin.

I might've missed 's comment about pepsin, but does pepsin cleave

proteins? Isn't that it's job? What I'm wondering is if it's actually

*pepsin* and not *HCl* that would permanently denature some of the exogenous

pancreatic proteases in the stomach? It also occurs to me that the *amount*

of pancreatin could make all the difference in pancreatin surving the

stomach environment. I assume is using massive amounts, and maybe

that's because some of them get destroyed in the stomach? The difference in

*amount* of pancreatin consumed could possibly account for the contradictory

results in the research with some studies showing it's destroyed in the

stomach and others showing it's not.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

----------------------------

January 11, 2006

Suze,

> I might've missed 's comment about pepsin, but does pepsin cleave

> proteins? Isn't that it's job? What I'm wondering is if it's actually

> *pepsin* and not *HCl* that would permanently denature some of the exogenous

> pancreatic proteases in the stomach?

Actually you had originally said:

" However, as cited several

studies showing that pancreatin is destroyed by stomach acid... "

....to which I responded:

" Enzymes do not EVER to my knowledge get destroyed by stomach acid.

This denaturing is reversed by changing pH to ideal pH. "

....to which responded:

" No enzyme is ever destroyed by stomach acid? Is there some reason

all enzymes are unique in this regard, since many other proteins do

not (to my knowledge) spontaneously reassemble their globular

structure upon being returned to their ideal pHs? Or did I totally

miss the boat somewhere WRT the behaviour of acid-denatured proteins

in returned-to-ideal pH? "

But yes, it seems possible that pepsin could digest important cellular

proteins in the stomach. And HCl could do all kind of damage to them

too, which is why the alkaline coating is there. Even temporary

denaturation of cellular proteins by HCl could be extremely harmful to

cells, and perhaps extreme acidic conditions could wreak other havoc

on the cell's membranes, like disorganizing the proteins and so on.

It also occurs to me that the *amount*

> of pancreatin could make all the difference in pancreatin surving the

> stomach environment. I assume is using massive amounts, and maybe

> that's because some of them get destroyed in the stomach? The difference in

> *amount* of pancreatin consumed could possibly account for the contradictory

> results in the research with some studies showing it's destroyed in the

> stomach and others showing it's not.

This sounds reasonable.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

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Find Out the Truth: