Re: denaturing toxins- detox

[Guest guest]

> >

> > It used to be common practice to ammoniate animal feed to detoxify

> > grains, etc. Treating the grains with ammonia does neutralize the feed

> > enough so that the animals were healthy again. They do not reply on

> > CSM, I doubt. -

> >

>

>

> Ammonia is effective only against aflatoxins. Other mycotoxins

cannot be detoxified with ammonia.

>

> Btw. I know that Dr Croft claims trichothecenes can be

> destroyed with ammonia, but several good chemists told me that was

> just impossible. Ammonia does not destroy trichothecenes. Only

bleach with added sodium hydroxide can destroy trhichothecenes and it

takes about 48 hours for the reaction to complete.

This is just so interesting. Finding ways to get rid of these toxins

is so important for us. I understand that so many scientifically

trained individuals have an opinion on what is or is not possible.

Sometimes they are speaking of a specific chemistry which is getting

on a very fine point, and is technically correct, but as far as being

useful knowledge for me, it is not too useful. I have found from

experience, as you have, that certain toxins associated with mold that

are actually bothering me can be decontaminated by ammonia. I have

also found that bleach works for some things too.

So for chemist to say to me that this or that is impossible, makes me

wonder if he has done the work himself, and looked under that

microscope, or if he is speaking from a different viewpoint. The fact

remains that there is more unknown than known about the subject. Also

that scientific method is slow, getting consensus is not usual. It is

more that we have found such and such, under these conditions. If the

conditions vary, well then so might the conclusions.

There are probably countless mycotoxins, and eventually we might have

found out that they run in families, and there are x many in y many

genuses; and to detoxify them them, do this for that family. Do

something else for that other family over there. But for now, we do

not have a fine enough understanding, and it might be decades.

In a previous post you said " Therefore now for animal

food biotransformation through enzymes is used to detoxify

trichothecenes, not to bind them. " was wondering if you knew which

enzymes are being used this way. There are many enzymes being added to

cleaners these days, some sensitive people can't use them (I am

thinking of the seventh generation cleaners).

This could be a valuable clue for us to do our own experiments.

Best wishes,

>

> Incidentally, maybe some will remember here that last year I had

great problems with the AC units from the building nearby. It poisoned

me terribly.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Btw. I know that Dr Croft claims trichothecenes can be

> > destroyed with ammonia, but several good chemists told me that was

> > just impossible. Ammonia does not destroy trichothecenes. Only

> bleach with added sodium hydroxide can destroy trhichothecenes and it

> takes about 48 hours for the reaction to complete.

>

> This is just so interesting. Finding ways to get rid of these toxins

> is so important for us. I understand that so many scientifically

> trained individuals have an opinion on what is or is not possible.

> Sometimes they are speaking of a specific chemistry which is getting

> on a very fine point, and is technically correct, but as far as

> being useful knowledge for me, it is not too useful. I have found

> from experience, as you have, that certain toxins associated with

> mold that are actually bothering me can be decontaminated by

> ammonia. I have also found that bleach works for some things too.

>

> So for chemist to say to me that this or that is impossible, makes

> me wonder if he has done the work himself, and looked under that

> microscope, or if he is speaking from a different viewpoint. The

> fact remains that there is more unknown than known about the

> subject. Also that scientific method is slow, getting consensus is

> not usual. It is

,

Chemistry is a very exact and precise science. As a former chemist I

can assure you that in chemistry there's no room for guessing, and

chemists usually know very well what they are doing.

The problem is that some of the doctors that are self-professed

experts on mycotoxins are not very good chemists!

Ammonia definitely cannot destroy real trichothecene mycotoxins. I was

also a believer that mycotoxins cause all our problems until I started

to dig more deeply in their properties. Just take a look at this study

that explains how laboratory glassware contaminated with T-2 toxin can

be decontaminated:

http://www.bolesnezgrade.com/documents/t-2_toxin_deactivation.pdf

(I bought this study for $35, it's not public domain so I advise

everyone who is interested to download it asap, because I will delete

it in a few days)

In it you will find that for complete deactivation of T-2 toxin on

completely non-porous material (laboratory glassware) bleach and

sodium hydroxide deactivate 98% of the toxin only after 48 hours.

If ammonia was really that successful at deactivating trichothecenes,

as Dr. Croft claims, do you think anyone would bother with bleach and

sodium hydroxide? It would be so much easier to rinse lab glassware

with some ammonia and get rid of the toxins. Well, unfortunately

ammonia doesn't work on trichothecenes.

The reason ammonia sometimes can eliminate some of our contaminations

is because those contaminations are in fact MVOCs - various volatile

hydrocarbons, aldehydes, ketones, sulphur compounds etc. Ammonia can

react with some of them, but not with all. Hydrogen peroxide will also

destroy some of them, but not others. Borax and baking soda will

absorb and neutralize some of them, but not all etc.

Ammonia, hydrogen peroxide, baking soda, borax and salt would have no

effect on real trichothecenes. And we all know that these substances

often can help with decontamination - it's because many times we don't

deal with real mycotoxins but with volatile MVOCs to which we've

become sentisized.

So you don't have one substance that can eliminate all of our

offending contaminations, simply because they are all different in

chemical structure. If we always had to deal with trichothecens, then

ammonia would always be helpful, which is not the case. For instance,

it has had absolutely no effect on this year's contamination that has

been torturing me immensely.

Also, real trichothecenes would not be able to offgas (evaporate) at

room temperature.

I also doubt they can penetrate plastic items, much less pass through

them. Those of us who have very developed mold sense (who can sense

the contamination on objects from a distance in only a few seconds)

will tell you that a contaminated object can be felt through several

layers of plastic - I am pretty sure that also wouldn't be possible

with real trichothecenes, only with volatile compounds such as MVOCs.

-Branislav

[Guest guest]

Hi, Branislav,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I was out of town. Thanks for posting

the pdf, I got it. It is very interesting. I have not read the whole

thing yet. I guess I was trained to be skeptical- maybe I should have

just believed you. I suspected you had that background, or maybe

physics, they take alot of chem too. Yes, I agree, chemists are very

well trained, and can often sort things out very well, if left alone

to do their work.

I have made some comments in the text below:

[Guest guest]

I've also spoken to a leading expert on the toxicity of trichothecene

mycotoxins in indoor environments and

he said that ammonia did not detoxify stachybotrys toxins (like satratoxin,

etc.)

His and his colleagues' research also shows that once a mold produces them,

stachybotrys toxins last in an environment for a long time, and don't get

weaker in the kinds of rates we would expect. They appear to get weaker, but

its VERY slowly. The test they did lasted a few years (studies have to

conclude so that they can publish results) and the amount the toxins

declined in toxicity was very small.

Also, in an open space, or even a closed cavity, long since dry, the spores

from mold growth in the past, say years or even decades previously, could

not be expected to be recognizable under a microscope indefinitely. I don't

know how long

the microscopic structures that mycologists wouls recognize as

" stachybotrys " last, but I doubt if it would be more than a few years.

But the toxins do last on, and on..

That is a fundamental weakness of spore tests. A building can be toxic for

years and even when the mold was growing, but especially later, spores don't

show up.

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:55 PM, kl_clayton <kl_clayton@...> wrote:

> Hi, Branislav,

>

> Sorry for the delay in replying, I was out of town. Thanks for posting

> the pdf, I got it. It is very interesting. I have not read the whole

> thing yet. I guess I was trained to be skeptical- maybe I should have

> just believed you. I suspected you had that background, or maybe

> physics, they take alot of chem too. Yes, I agree, chemists are very

> well trained, and can often sort things out very well, if left alone

> to do their work.

>

> I have made some comments in the text below:

>

> _

>

[Guest guest]

....but ammonia does decompose or detoxify tricothecenes, correct?

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> I've also spoken to a leading expert on the toxicity of trichothecene

> mycotoxins in indoor environments and

> he said that ammonia did not detoxify stachybotrys toxins (like

satratoxin,

> etc.)

[Guest guest]

No, satratoxin G and H are the main stachybotrys toxins. They are

macrocyclic trichothecenes. T-2 toxin is a simple trichothecene produced by

a number of other fungi, including fusarium.

So, the implication that I got was that it does not detoxify them. I'm not a

chemist. He didn't elaborate.

Ammonia probably IS useful, still (assuming you are wearing gloves and have

water to rinse and

a drain to rinse it down) but that water contains some of the toxins and

they still are toxic.

Others, probably still remain in and on the wood, when it dries off, even if

its rinsed well.

So ammonia in a practical sense can be useful in degreasing items, and that

grease contains mycotoxins.

It goes down the drain or dries again on the object if its not rinsed off..

if its allowed to pool and dry somewhere, that

spot might contain concentrated levels of trichothecenes. You want to make

absolutely sure that dirty water gets rinesd down the drain. And don't treat

the object as safe untl you know that it is not reactive to you. (could mean

many washings in various things)

The silver bullet everyone is looking for is a nontoxic liquid or goo that

DEACTIVATES TRICHOTHECENE

MYCOTOXINS on contact, but which does not become toxic itself.

As far as I know, the closest we have come to that are solutions that in and

of themselves are highly

caustic and corrosive, which do a partial job of deactivating toxins, if

left in contact with them long enough and agitated

enough via scrubbing, then rinsed completely away.

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 11:46 PM, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

> ...but ammonia does decompose or detoxify tricothecenes, correct?

>

>

>

> >

> > I've also spoken to a leading expert on the toxicity of trichothecene

> > mycotoxins in indoor environments and

> > he said that ammonia did not detoxify stachybotrys toxins (like

> satratoxin,

> > etc.)

>

>

>