Re: The demise of guys?

[Guest guest]

> I hate to say it but in my own experience, that except for my mentally ill and

alcoholic ex who I fled 35 years ago, the most painful and lasting hurt in my

life was perpetrated by other women. This is one area where we haven't " come a

long way baby. "

I agree with you, Helen. For that reason, I am very slow to trust other

women... it takes a lot longer for my walls to come down.

Thus, for many years, I reserved my friendships to males exclusively.

The downside to that is that the friendships were very fragile, in that

most guys haven't been socialized to see women as friends. Once they

figure out that there is little chance of pursuing a sexual relationship

with the woman, they feel rejected and the friendship withers in the

process. <sigh>

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

> What does the research say and why are men committing suicide at a higher

rate? The response I got and I am not saying this is true, is that we raise boys

to be strong and not to show emotion.

Thus, men are less likely to have a good support system to work through

their troubles.

> Men complete suicide at a violent end like with guns, where women tend to

complete with pills, often as a cry for help.

My husband used a combo of pills, alcohol, and carbon monoxide. The

latter was what killed him... the other methods were backup insurance.

Still, it took him 5 tries over an 18 month period to get it right. And

the engineer in him planned very carefully. Just goes to show that it's

not as easy as people sometimes think.

> If you are male and define yourself as the provider for your family and that

role has changed, it can have devastating effects on the male ego and your

relationship with your partner. If this is the model you have been raised with

and the only script you know, what is your next step?

In the same vein, the shift to a service and information based economy

stranded a lot of men who once provided for their families with jobs in

the manufacturing sector. Suddenly, they became useless as providers,

seriously messing with their sense of worth and identity.

> One fact about suicide I have found interesting is most never complete the

task when they are totally depressed as they don't have the energy. It is when

they are cycling back up.

I've heard this too, . It reminds me of the myth about suicides

spiking during the holiday season. In fact, the spike occurs at the

beginning of spring, during a time that most of us associate with renewal.

> My thoughts have always been how do you know and why take this risk with

clients? What if the research is wrong and you brush off a client off and they

kill themselves? Now what?

>

You can't know. There are so many factors that contribute to a person's

choice to take the final exit. As I see it, there is only so much

responsibility a therapist can assume for a client's suicide. My

husband's therapist was totally shocked when I gave her the news, as it

was inconsistent with the person she thought she knew.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

Newland wrote:

> Bill Thanks! I would respectively disagree. Some research has shown

> that the majority of violence is perpetuated by males against females

> and males. Males also have the highest suicide completion rate. WHY

> would there be no disconnect among your gender? Just curious.

- please, a little context? I'm confused, and not sure what

connection you're making with whatever something I wrote. ???

- Bill, ...AS

--

WD " Bill " Loughman - Berkeley, California USA

http://home.earthlink.net/~wdloughman/wdl.htm

[Guest guest]

>

> Helen:

> My comment were based on a question I raised in my Families and Aging class.

What does the research say and why are men committing suicide at a higher rate?

The response I got and I am not saying this is true, is that we raise boys to be

strong and not to show emotion. Men complete suicide at a violent end like with

guns, where women tend to complete with pills, often as a cry for help. This

economy has not helped.

Ahhh, I see.

> If you are male and define yourself as the provider for your family and that

role has changed, it can have devastating effects on the male ego and your

relationship with your partner. If this is the model you have been raised with

and the only script you know, what is your next step?

Good question! Guys? Your thoughts?

> One fact about suicide I have found interesting is most never complete the

task when they are totally depressed as they don't have the energy. It is when

they are cycling back up. My thoughts have always been how do you know and why

take this risk with clients? What if the research is wrong and you brush off a

client off and they kill themselves? Now what?

I have a clinically depressed friend on disability now. I learned quite a bit

about this topic from her .. significantly more than I ever wanted to know, in

fact. If they do access whatever health care system they have, and articulate

their suicide ideation they would get lots and lots of medication to numb them

out, essentially immobilize them so they can't carry out the suicide. Some are

hospitalized on the spot. My friend attended a day program with other suicidal

patients.

If someone says they are *thinking* about suicide the thinking (in these parts

anyway) is to steer them towards immediate medical intervention. Of course, if

they don't tell you, especially if they appear to be getting better (I have read

that some seem at peace when they've made their minds up) then it might be very

hard to divine what they are thinking and I don't think professionals should

fault themselves then.

At one point I felt it incumbent to grill my friend about her intentions as she

was spending a lot of time taking about her " plan " *if* she was ever going to do

it. I was prepared to contact her doctor. I am not a therapist and at the time

she was going through this I was quite physically sick (though far from

suicidal, LOL, just wanting to get WELL) so I hardly needed that. But I " stayed

with her " talking with her every day until the crisis had passed. I have given

myself some " space " since then though since it was getting really onerous. I'm

no professional, and she has professionals to help her, she needed to access

them more and me less. I appreciate the burden that professionals such as

yourself would feel in a case like this, !

- Helen

[Guest guest]

> As a

child, I would have loved to have access to many of the

> extracurricular activities available to today's kids (e.g., a variety of

> martial arts and dance), yet those things just weren't available outside

> the major urban areas. And if there had been an internet while I was

> growing up, I would have had access to all sorts of knowledge and

> opportunities for connection with like minded people, instead of being

> stuck with the kids in my neighborhood.

CJ, If those activities were available when we were kids, we would have still

needed an adult to transport us (or some means to transport ourselves) and a

means to pay for it. Which would be well and good if you had parents that could

do that, but what if you did not? Then we would be even further behind the curve

than our peers, which is what happens now for those whose parents who can't

afford it, and/or single working parent on shift work, or are mentally ill or

otherwise unavailable to ferry their kids to these activities. The registration

fee even if " low " is still substantial for those on a fixed income, and then

everyone has to fund raise which often these distressed families are not in a

position to do. Those kids, AS or NS, are more socially deprived than they ever

were.

> I also think the media has frightened parents to the extent where they

> are now raising their kids in a bubble. Yet kids have been getting beat

> up on city buses for decades... it's nothing new. Nor are child

> molesters that prey on children. The horrors that befall kids are just

> more visible now and in-your-face, thanks to a media that distorts risk

> and sensationalizes everything for the sake of ratings.

Yes there are some very over-protective helicopter parents, yes, we hear about

the bad things faster now, and yes, there have always been pedophiles and other

dangers, but the reality is, kids don't have the same protection from peers,

siblings, community etc. that they used to back in our day. They also don't get

to build connections and trust with older people in the community, neighbours,

and so on, as today's society is quite mobile. We are all strangers now.

> > AS or NS I think there was more opportunity for kids to learn the social

game, learn about life, support each other more in the past than today.

> I'm not convinced. I think the mechanisms are merely different. And it's

only natural for us to prefer the mechanisms with which we are most familiar.

Well the kids I've talked with like their toys but have said they wish they had

the freedoms that we did when we were growing up. In some very large

metropolitan communities, you aren't allowed to play soccer in the parks unless

it's an organized activity (read: has insurance) they've ripped out all the

playground equipment because of lawsuits, there are so many " rules " to protect

people from their own stupidity that did not exist when we were kids. Some of

the things we did, while not illegal, could have been dangerous I suppose but

now kids don't learn until much later, when they are out drunk with their

friends and decide to try some of the dumb things we did when we were ten years

old, like, experiments with gravity like jumping out of a small tree or

something like that...

>

> Yet those who are familiar with the norms of their own generation

> probably prefer those mechanisms, as they just can't relate to our

> experiences at all.

>

> It's not a matter of which way is better... it's just a different life,

> with a different set of challenges.

Well we shall have to agree to disagree then, but I do like having this dialogue

with you CJ, you make your points well.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

I can chime in here with my personal 2 cents worth. I have one nephew who completed suicide on his first attempt with not one person having a clue that he was suicidal. And a male co-worker in his late twenties did the same. I have known a few women who have attempted suicide on a few occasions but none who have been successful. And although I think your point about male identity has some relevance I think that relevance has diminished as women have become more financially independent. I know that my sons who are 28 do not consider their roles to be that of the provider in a relationship, in fact they expect their partners to carry their own weight financially, and I suspect that sentiment is becoming more common. I do think that as gender roles have changed that men have not found out exactly what their new roles are supposed to be and that this is a large stressor. My 2 cents,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of NewlandSent: May-25-12 8:26 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: The demise of guys? Helen:My comment were based on a question I raised in my Families and Aging class. What does the research say and why are men committing suicide at a higher rate? The response I got and I am not saying this is true, is that we raise boys to be strong and not to show emotion. Men complete suicide at a violent end like with guns, where women tend to complete with pills, often as a cry for help. This economy has not helped.If you are male and define yourself as the provider for your family and that role has changed, it can have devastating effects on the male ego and your relationship with your partner. If this is the model you have been raised with and the only script you know, what is your next step?One fact about suicide I have found interesting is most never complete the task when they are totally depressed as they don't have the energy. It is when they are cycling back up. My thoughts have always been how do you know and why take this risk with clients? What if the research is wrong and you brush off a client off and they kill themselves? Now what?Just me.Others?

[Guest guest]

although I am in Canada I very sadly concur that the old the infirm and the young are invisible here too. My 2 cents worth,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of NewlandSent: May-25-12 8:41 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: The demise of guys? Helen:(Little Sis) My stats were more for the aging population. This population opens up a different can of worms. Aging is really depressing, depending on who one listens to? <Sigh>In the USA we discard our elderly and the disabled. PLUS we do not support children. We are individualists and capitalists. It is all about US! <Sigh> BUT, many do not agree and have done great things to counter this thinking.Just my humble opinion.Others?

[Guest guest]

While I agree that society does tend to discard the elderly and disabled... I wanted to put in my 2 cents that I have seen way too many times where the elderly are simply reaping what they spent their entire lives sowing. All too often the adult children are put on a guilt trip by society for not being there for their elderly parent when in reality it is the elderly parent's life long choice to be in the type of life they are in.

It is my experience that people who spent their lives investing in their loved ones don't end up discarded. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. There's a reason there's an old saying, "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree."

Just my experience and that of many I know,

Jennie AS

The demise of guys?

Helen:(Little Sis) My stats were more for the aging population. This population opens up a different can of worms. Aging is really depressing, depending on who one listens to? <Sigh>In the USA we discard our elderly and the disabled. PLUS we do not support children. We are individualists and capitalists. It is all about US! <Sigh> BUT, many do not agree and have done great things to counter this thinking.Just my humble opinion.Others?

[Guest guest]

I can chime in here with my personal 2 cents worth. I

have one nephew who completed suicide on his first attempt with

not one person having a clue that he was suicidal. And a male

co-worker in his late twenties did the same. I have known a few

women who have attempted suicide on a few occasions but none who

have been successful.

How successful a person will be at a suicide attempt depends a lot

on the method chosen and how well thought-out the process is. Some

methods (the messy violent ones in particular) have a higher

probability of being successful than others. The less painful

variety that rely on suppressing the central nervous system (e.g.,

drugs, alcohol, carbon monoxide) involve way more variables and thus

have less predictable results.

And although I think your point about male identity has

some relevance I think that relevance has diminished as women

have become more financially independent. I know that my sons

who are 28 do not consider their roles to be that of the

provider in a relationship, in fact they expect their partners

to carry their own weight financially, and I suspect that

sentiment is becoming more common.

I completely agree with you, Deb.

I know a middle-aged woman who was a full-time homemaker prior to

her divorce. She lives in Silicon Valley and has no marketable work

skills (nor is interested in acquiring any). She keeps talking

about wanting to marry a well-paid engineer who will allow her to be

a full-time homemaker. I keep trying to explain to her that very

few Silicon Valley engineers are looking for a life partner whom

they are expected to support. They are accustomed to dating

professional women with careers of their own who are financially

independent. [i know of a few exceptions involving fundamentalist

Christian men who expect their life partners to stay at home and

raise the children, yet she is not looking for that sort of man...

nor is she interested in raising children.]

I

do think that as gender roles have changed that men have not

found out exactly what their new roles are supposed to be

and that this is a large stressor.

It is a huge stressor. I think that those men whose moms had their

own professional careers and were financially independent may be

able to make the transition easier, as their moms modeled

'nontraditional' gender roles and thus shaped the expectations of

their sons.

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

> I know a middle-aged woman who was a full-time homemaker prior to her divorce.

She lives in Silicon Valley and has no marketable work skills (nor is interested

in acquiring any). She keeps talking about wanting to marry a well-paid

engineer who will allow her to be a full-time homemaker. I keep trying to

explain to her that very few Silicon Valley engineers are looking for a life

partner whom they are expected to support. They are accustomed to dating

professional women with careers of their own who are financially independent.

This could be me, except for the location ... and the fact that I'm a realist

and know no man is going to want a 55 year old housewife.

I was married for 20 years, and for 18 of those I didn't work outside the home

or for significant income. I did plenty of work, rearing our two kids, keeping

house, and doing graphic design work " for fun " .

The divorce was a major financial blow (mostly due to attorney's fees that my

still not yet ex was and is running up), and though I'd love a " dot com

billionaire " to drive up in his white <whatever dot com billionaires drive>, I

sure don't expect it. I'm working my behind off trying to establish my web and

graphic design business, so if my ex stops paying support, the kids and I can

keep the house and eat. [And my ex may be so mentally messed up that he'll never

work again. I think work would help heal him, but my opinion no longer matters.]

--Liz