Re: are air sample tests for mold pretty accurate?

[Guest guest]

Be sure you get someone with the right credentials. If you haven't

gotten guidance for that, we can help you with that. Also if you want

to do one yourself, we can help you with that also. Realize though

that if the house does not seem to be bothering you now, test may be

negative even though there is a problem. Best to get test done when

house seems to be bothering you. I got professional testing in

February and they came up to nothing. In fact tests seem to say house

had good air quality, for about same as you are paying. Then the

following summer I was sick again BUT didn't blame it on the house

BECAUSE I had gotten it tested by pros, so stayed in the house, and

didn't leave it until the end of the summer when I realized by self

testing the house then that it was the house afterall. I should have

tested it as soon as I started to feel bad. Of course you know if can

be other things other than mold, so you should do other tests also.

For example, you should have the gas company in to test all the gas

lines in house if you use natural gas to see if there are any leaks.

They do that for free. Did you do any work on the house just before

you felt bad, you could have dry sanded some leaded paint and inhaled

lead, and may have lead dust in the house that every once in awhile

gets kicked up. There are alot of things.

--- In , " TheBeth " <thebethinator@...>

wrote:

>

> We're going to go ahead and pay $300 for an air sampling test. This

> should tell us pretty much everything that could be making me sick in

> the house, right? Such as allergens, gasses, molds, yeasts etc?

>

[Guest guest]

By the dollar amount that will give you a general idea but not a thourough one

just to let you know. You should have one air sample taken outdoors to campare

outdoor with indoor levels which sounds like he may be takeing one air sample

indoor and maybe one tape lift. If that is all you can afford thats ok but know

you will get limited information in return. If you plan on any legal action if

the house is makeing you sick you will need much more than that and if you want

to know more than minimal info you will also want much more than that.

I sort of did the same because I realy didnt know what I was dealing with. I

paid about 550 for my first and got enough to know it was bad but then I later

got a much more specific and thouroh done wich also gave me an extensive report

explaining exactly what I needed to know other than a generic " its toxic, get

out " Hope that gives you a general idea of what you are heading into...

-- On Sun, 11/23/08, TheBeth <thebethinator@...> wrote:

From: TheBeth <thebethinator@...>

Subject: [] are air sample tests for mold pretty accurate?

Date: Sunday, November 23, 2008, 1:25 AM

We're going to go ahead and pay $300 for an air sampling test. This

should tell us pretty much everything that could be making me sick in

the house, right? Such as allergens, gasses, molds, yeasts etc?

[Guest guest]

the house is still bothering me, just not quite as bad, and i've been

noticing that i've grown so much more sensitive to smells and

chemicals, that everythings starting to bother me. We have had the gas

tested and got a detector, its not that. How should i check the

credentials? I know its cheaper to do it yourself, but i want a

proffessional to do it so that accuracy cant be denied. I am trying to

get my husband to schedule it for this week, while its still getting

warm during the day and not freezing every night yet.

>

> Be sure you get someone with the right credentials. If you haven't

> gotten guidance for that, we can help you with that. Also if you

[Guest guest]

Good point. No, spore trap tests can show you a certain kind of

information, but would trust your life to a cheap test that only traps

spores?

How many of these $300 tests are you going to do?

If you only do one test, it should be an ERMI type QPCR test done on a

sampling of dust from the whole house. You can do this yourself. with

a vacuum cleaner..

The ERMI tests can be accurate, because they can draw on vacuum dust

from an averaged area.

The kinds of tests that use spore traps can show positives but they

should never be relied on to do clearance, (to show if a building is

safe) not only because they cannot show stachybotrys, and cannot

distinguish by species, but also because many small spores cruise

through the most used kinds of traps..

They can be used for quantitative evaluations that are designed to

find a known source of mold.. For example, you do one test in each

suspected mold area, or one on each floor, and then you compare the

results to figure out where a cavity may be.

They cannot be used to show that any place is safe.

Because mold sporulates sporadically.. Also, *stachybotrys* one of the

more dangerous molds, seems to elude spore trap tests very

consistently..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17267247

Fungal Genet Biol. 2007 Jul;44(7):641-7. Epub 2006 Dec 24.

Biomechanics of conidial dispersal in the toxic mold Stachybotrys chartarum.

Tucker K, Stolze JL, Kennedy AH, Money NP.

Department of Botany, Miami University, Oxford, OH 45056, USA.

Conidial dispersal in Stachybotrys chartarum in response to

low-velocity airflow was studied using a microflow apparatus. The

maximum rate of spore release occurred during the first 5 min of

airflow, followed by a dramatic reduction in dispersal that left more

than 99% of the conidia attached to their conidiophores.

Micromanipulation of undisturbed colonies showed that micronewton

(microN) forces were needed to dislodge spore clusters from their

supporting conidiophores. Calculations show that airspeeds that

normally prevail in the indoor environment disturb colonies with

forces that are 1000-fold lower, in the nanonewton (nN) range.

Low-velocity airflow does not, therefore, cause sufficient disturbance

to disperse a large proportion of the conidia of S. chartarum.

PMID: 17267247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

PMCID: PMC1950243

Full text at

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed & pubmedid=1726724\

7

On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:25 AM, TheBeth <thebethinator@...> wrote:

> We're going to go ahead and pay $300 for an air sampling test. This

> should tell us pretty much everything that could be making me sick in

> the house, right? Such as allergens, gasses, molds, yeasts etc?

>

> _

[Guest guest]

Beth.

Barb pretty well covered it. For $300 you are most likely getting

only mold tested, none of the other things you listed.

Gas testing (VOCs) require at least 1, if not more, panels of

similar types with a cost of at least $300 per panel with Summa

canisters. Carbon monoxide is simple and cheap. Allergens are

detected with a dust sample and the cost can range anywhere

from $45 to $100 or more per allergen: dust mite, cockroach,

rodent, cat, dog. Pollens are sometimes included in the air

sample for mold, depending on the lab used. But it doesn't

identify the pollen. Besides, pollen is seasonal and short lived for

each plant, flower, weed and tree. Pesticides are an additional

cost.

For a $300 mold air test you will get 2, maybe 3, samples. If the

$300 includes the inspectors time you'll get only 2. Totally

insufficient for any kind of accurate or represenative information.

Mostly likely microscopy only and not culturing. Advantages to

each. And they will only detect spores which happen to be in the

air at the time, and they detect only spores. They detect none of

the other half dozen or so components of mold associated with

health concerns.

If you aren't reacting while in the house I'm not sure why you

would test for anything.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Be sure you get someone with the right credentials. If you haven't

> gotten guidance for that, we can help you with that. Also if you want

> to do one yourself, we can help you with that also. Realize though

> that if the house does not seem to be bothering you now, test may be

> negative even though there is a problem. Best to get test done when

> house seems to be bothering you. I got professional testing in

> February and they came up to nothing. In fact tests seem to say house

> had good air quality, for about same as you are paying. Then the

> following summer I was sick again BUT didn't blame it on the house

> BECAUSE I had gotten it tested by pros, so stayed in the house, and

> didn't leave it until the end of the summer when I realized by self

> testing the house then that it was the house afterall. I should have

> tested it as soon as I started to feel bad. Of course you know if can

> be other things other than mold, so you should do other tests also.

> For example, you should have the gas company in to test all the gas

> lines in house if you use natural gas to see if there are any leaks.

> They do that for free. Did you do any work on the house just before

> you felt bad, you could have dry sanded some leaded paint and inhaled

> lead, and may have lead dust in the house that every once in awhile

> gets kicked up. There are alot of things.

>

>

> >

> > We're going to go ahead and pay $300 for an air sampling test. This

> > should tell us pretty much everything that could be making me sick in

> > the house, right? Such as allergens, gasses, molds, yeasts etc?

> >

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm hoping that this one will at least let us now if its toxic or not,

then we can work on finding somewhere else to stay while we figure out

where to go from there. Its bad this morning, that much is for sure, I

feel like i've been hit with a brick in the face. How do you go about

finding the more extensive testers?

>

> By the dollar amount that will give you a general idea but not a

thourough one just to let you know. You should have one air sample

taken outdoors to campare outdoor with indoor levels which sounds like

[Guest guest]

can you tel me how to do the ERMI type QPCR myself? What I need and

where to get it, where to send it, etc?

Or can the same people who do the air test do this for me? If I ask,

will they know what I am talking about?

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Good point. No, spore trap tests can show you a certain kind of

> information, but would trust your life to a cheap test that only traps

>

[Guest guest]

would a kit like this work:

http://emsl.com/ProductCatalogDetails.aspx?ProductID=MTK-ERMI-5D ?

or would I need somthing like this:

http://products.aerotechpk.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=5885BFDC-3E15-4742-B255-4\

63054001815 & sid=81FCB7B9-849C-48C0-87AE-6173DE20A465 & cid=450BA6AE-81EC-404F-B5FB\

-3A9F1D9D39F5

or something else entirely?

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> Good point. No, spore trap tests can show you a certain kind of

> information, but would trust your life to a cheap test that only traps

> spores?

>

[Guest guest]

With respect to to mold sampling, air samples only indicate what is going on at

the time of sampling. For example, air samples do not indicate what occurred

two hours earlier or even two hours later. It is well recognized that over 50%

of the mold and bacteria in a contaminated home/building are hidden. Therefore,

the appropriate sampling includes carept dust, dust samples, HVAC samples, wall

cavity samples and bulk samples. In addition, the molds species should also be

determined. The most reliable method for speciation is PCR DNA testing. I also

recommend that one does mycotoxin testing of bulk samples. Recent peer reviewed

research has demonstrated the presence of trichothecenes, sterigmatocystin and

other mycotoxins in bulk samples.

Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 530--644-6035

Cell - 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

530-644-6035 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

This is what many professionals use. Results will still vary based

on what is sampled, where it is, why it is there, moisture history,

occupant history and susceptibilities.

ERMI was developed to provide a " history " of settle dust,

somewhat like counting tree rings can reveal a lot of history.

Narrow rings during drought and wide rings during wet seasons.

That sort of thing.

Then Dr Vesper, researching at EPA, devised a

numerical system to determine a " problem " house from a

" nonproblem " house. There are still issues to be worked out.

For example, at the HUD conference in Baltimore, Vesper was

quite clear ERMI was not " ready for prime time " yet. More work

was needed, he said, especially for determing whether or not a

house was " safe. " He explicity and repeatedly stated that is no

the purpose of ERMI.

ERMI often produces a positive result which is false. This is the

opposite of most methods which produce a negative result which

is false. Despite that, many mold sampling companies use ERMI

as a sales tool to generate income.

As with all other testing methods and analysis, it is one tool out of

many. The meaning is still determined by building history,

materials, structure, systems, use, occupants, water issues if

any, etc etc etc.

Go to:

http://www.emsl.com/PDFDocuments/SamplingGuide/EMSL%20

ERMI%20ARMI%20Sampling%20Guide.pdf for a description of

ERMI and its less expensive counterpart ARMI.

You can read a petition against ERMI signed by some pretty

astute experts at: http://www.gopetition.com/online/14485.html

Confused? So am I.

Finally, mycotoxin testing. Last I checked the cost was

somewhere around $600+ per sample.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> would a kit like this work:

> http://emsl.com/ProductCatalogDetails.aspx?ProductID=MTK-ERMI-5D ?

> or would I need somthing like this:

>

http://products.aerotechpk.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=5885BFDC-3E15-4742-B255-4\

63054001815 & sid=81FCB7B9-849C-48C0-87AE-6173DE20A465 & cid=450BA6AE-81EC-404F-B5FB\

-3A9F1D9D39F5

>

> or something else entirely?

>

>

>

> >

> > Good point. No, spore trap tests can show you a certain kind of

> > information, but would trust your life to a cheap test that only traps

> > spores?

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

[Guest guest]

I dont know alot about it but I think it is a more long term test. Were you able

to watch Shoemakers video on it at www.biotoxin.info ? He explains it very well,

but to answer your question, I dont think so.

From: TheBeth <thebethinator@...>

Subject: [] Re: are air sample tests for mold pretty accurate?

can you tel me how to do the ERMI type QPCR myself? What I need and

where to get it, where to send it, etc?

Or can the same people who do the air test do this for me? If I ask,

will they know what I am talking about?

[Guest guest]

Wow, I would love to have some of that stuff. I am a gadget guy, but I would

leave testing your house to a proffesional, seriously...

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

       

From: TheBeth <thebethinator@...>

Subject: [] Re: are air sample tests for mold pretty accurate?

Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 1:01 PM

would a kit like this work:

http://emsl. com/ProductCatal ogDetails. aspx?ProductID= MTK-ERMI- 5D ?

or would I need somthing like this:

http://products. aerotechpk. com/ProductDetai ls.aspx?pid= 5885BFDC- 3E15-4742-

B255-46305400181 5 & sid=81FCB7B9- 849C-48C0- 87AE-6173DE20A46 5 & cid=450BA6AE-

81EC-404F- B5FB-3A9F1D9D39F 5

or something else entirely?

--- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@ ...>

wrote:

>

> Good point. No, spore trap tests can show you a certain kind of

> information, but would trust your life to a cheap test that only traps

> spores?

>

[Guest guest]

Ask the vendor (the company that sells it to you) for their instruction sheet.

They will know how to do their own test. Try to get an average of

dust from the primary living areas of your home. or take several

samples for several tests focusing on living areas and suspected

problem areas.

If you plan on using it in court, I would pay a notary public to come

over and run the vacuum and mail in the little bag with a check and

the chain of custody form while you videotape continuously, with date

time stamp.. (don't stop the video, let it run as it gets sealed up,

put in envelope and then taken to post box or post office..)

Make it clear that you are the client but that they collected the

sample and mailed it in. (check with a lawyer for the rules of

evidence in your state)

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 12:52 PM, TheBeth <thebethinator@...> wrote:

> can you tel me how to do the ERMI type QPCR myself?

[Guest guest]

Carl, You are just a great guy. Your full of care, concern and knowledge and

willing to help anyone. You were a life saver for me.

 

For the person that needs testing. If you want the best service on the planet

Carl is your man. If he cant get to you or you cannot afford to get him there

his information is golden. I thought I would share this with you is case you did

not know this is what he does. I can assure you from experience the difference

in companies testing and the difference in quality and information alone is not

worth doing it wrong the first time. Do it right from the git go no matter the

cost. YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT. You have my word on that.

 

Chris...

     

From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

Subject: Re: [] Re: are air sample tests for mold pretty accurate?

Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 10:57 PM

This is what many professionals use.

[Guest guest]

Air Sampling: As I have stated on this forum once before. Mold spore in the

air is not the answer. Peer reviewed research from the Laboratories in the U.S.

(Dr. Straus) and Europe (Dr. Gorny) has shown that mycotoxins are present in

fine (<2 microns). The fine particulates are up to 320 times greater in

concentration than mold spores. Follow Carl Grimes suggestions and do it right.

Bulk samples, dust samples, etc. are the appropriate approach. Retaining a

notary is a good idea.

Jack D. Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Off: 530--644-6035

Cell - 575-937-1150

L. Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

530-644-6035 - Off

775-309-3994 - Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message

(and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited

and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been

served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this

message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the

miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed.

Thank you in advance for your compliance.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Dr. Straus's lab used to test bulk samples of stachybotrys from

contaminated buildings

for trichothecene mycotoxins for *$125* per sample.

They used the EnviroTox ELISA test kit.

They are not doing it any more... Now, I have no idea who does it.

Romer Labs can test bulk samples for mycotoxins commonly found in food.

[Guest guest]

I can see problems with ERMI test if I understand it correctly. For

one thing using dust that has settled over time, there are so many

variables that it would be difficult to compare one collection to

another. Say one house that is 30 years old and never had ducts

cleaned, which is a relatively new idea and a 5 year old house that had

had ducts cleaned twice, you are dealing with dust settled over wildly

different periods of time. Next what if one house did have a moisture

problem and dust settled with lots of mold spores but then water damage

was fix long time ago, dust would still show the high mold count of

that period which may have been fixed ten years ago prior and there

exists no problem anymore, new homeowners could have moved in with new

furniture, wall to wall carpeting could have been updated since then,

etc, etc. All that would be needed in that house may be a good duct

cleaning under containment. I still want to know the quantity of air

born spores is in my house because my immune system is suppressed and I

need it to be cleaner than before I was sick. I think Carl's

suggestion one time of taking tape sample from cold air return is a the

best spot to test if you have forced air system since eventually all

air or most air in house is pulled through the cold air returns. You

could take one test of dust there not knowing how long that dust has

been collecting, that tells you what type of mold, for example, has

predominated in house over time, a time period you don't know what it

is. Then I think you should wipe down the cold air return all that you

can reach and then wait a period of time, say a month, and redo test

and see what is collected there, now knowing the period of time. That

should tell you what is currently in air, and then I think you need to

do that in summer and again in winter since air current changes

direction. Clean cold air return in fall and take a winter sample say

in February; then clean cold air return in spring and take a sample

again in say August. That should tell you if something is going on in

one season and not another. There could be TWO problems, say one in

basement that might likely show up in wintertime test; and attic

problem that might show up in summertime test, for example. Frequently

there isn't enough time for that but if you live in house and staying

in house you should be able to do that. If one test is very bad, then

I would move out at least temporary.

I think the cold air return is a good spot for a culture plates too. I

put a culture plate on cold air return for air test and then in the

spots I spend the most time. A culture plate doesn't tell you where

the mold is coming from but tells you if you have alot and what kind.

Then culture plates is different areas should help you figure out which

area it may be coming from. I would think you could start out with two

plates only if you aren't sure if you have a mold problem. One on top

of cold air return and one where you spend most of your time, or

perhaps two, adding bedroom. If those come out good I can't see that

there would be a CURRENT mold problem, IN THE SEASON YOU TESTED. You

should redo in another season though. You should also redo it on a day

you are feeling sick as air currents can carry a problem on one day and

not another. You could probably do the tape lift out of cold air

return any season as it would be dust that collected in all seasons and

in all weather conditions any time. Things that can make results vary

are for example a very windy day could bring mold into the house from

underneath the exterior aluminum siding or from inside a wall more on a

windy day than a calm day. If result is good on windy day, may not be

good on another windy day if wind is COMING FROM A DIFFERENT

DIRECTION. See how difficult it can be? There are so many variables

I'm probably confusing you, but it is a tricky business, and so maybe

you start to test and realize that one test or two will not tell you

the whole story.

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

>

> ERMI was developed to provide a " history " of settle dust,

> somewhat like counting tree rings can reveal a lot of history.

> Narrow rings during drought and wide rings during wet seasons.

> That sort of thing.

[Guest guest]

Did you see that study on the WIDE variation between how the " experts "

interpret the results of " tests " ?

Also, often, some three day wonder comes in, does five or six spore

tests and then

*pronounces a building as " safe " based on that - even though people

are still being made sick there.

There is a major financial incentive to declare many unsafe buildings as safe.

You know that the EPA says that spore tests only show presence of

mold, not lack of presence..

They should not be used for clearance testing,

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:44 AM, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

> I can see problems with ERMI test if I understand it correctly. For

> one thing using dust that has settled over time, there are so many

> variables that it would be difficult to compare one collection to

> another.

First thing, how can anybody be serious about doing testing on a

building that is that dusty.

They should clean the building as much as they can first..

But that dust - and the past condition, if it wasn't fixed for a long

time, may have made them hypersensitive..

Say one house that is 30 years old and never had ducts

> cleaned, which is a relatively new idea

That just blows me away that people use systems like that.

and a 5 year old house that had

> had ducts cleaned twice, you are dealing with dust settled over wildly

> different periods of time.

I think a combination of bulk testing of any mold found in wall

cavities, spore testing using negative air pressure, and ERMI is

probably as good as it gets right now.. given that mycotoxin testing

is so hard to find.

>Next what if one house did have a moisture

> problem and dust settled with lots of mold spores but then water damage

> was fix long time ago,

Wouldn't it have been cleaned since then?

[Guest guest]

This is good, practical advise, I think. But I have another question,

since the air sample tests can miss things and are so expensive for

just one, would the air tests with the petri dishes show the same

info pretty much, as far as what is in the air at the time of testing?

Because I could afford to do more of those with labs to tell whats in

it and how much...

Or should I just go ahead and get the air test and go from there?

We still haven't been able to get the guy over yet, maybe tomorrow...

>

> I can see problems with ERMI test if I understand it correctly.

For

> one thing using dust that has settled over time, there are so many

> variables that it would be difficult to compare one collection to

> another. Say one house that is 30 years old and never had ducts

> cleaned, which is a relatively new idea and a 5 year old house that

[Guest guest]

Dust in house: I mean in places like ductwork. My aunt's house was

built in 1942. I don't know when she put ductwork in. I don't think

anyone used to do duct cleaning. I had a new house in CA and all our

friends had houses. I never heard them mention having ducts

cleaned. I think that is newer thing due to many allergies people

have. I don't mean there is years of dust sitting on top of a desk.

Mold in wall cavities: how do you get to it, or know where to even

look in a wall cavity in for example a typical 2000 sq ft home, two

story with full basement and full attic?

Small particles: I get the important of small particles versus mold

spores but a dust sample out of ductwork should pick up small

particles. I am saying here that I am still interested in amount of

live mold spores that are in air, because I feel I have suppressed

immune system. Testing for toxins in air over mold spores is more

important to proving lawsuit, that people have become sick from

toxins. If you are in lawsuit you can prove harm from live mold

cutlure plates, you will need proof of toxins. I'm not involved in

lawsuit nor will be so I don't care to test for toxins. If there is

too much mold, there will be toxins. A house this old, there will be

toxins on small particles. I'm interested to find out if there is

current mold growth in the house. I think culture plates let me test

this that I am interested in. I did say it's for me, I'm still

interested in testing for mold spores. I'm also interested in non-

toxic molds like mucor that can cause systemic infections in immune

suppressed people because my health shows evidence of immune

dysfunction. Mucor is not toxin but it is likes horse hair that is

found in old plaster houses and under carpet as carpet padding. I

had it all over this house..horse hair that is. In the walls and

ceilings and under all the carpets, so toxin testing would not show

that.

Negative air test: I'd use a negative air machine if I had one.

-- In , LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

wrote:

>

> First thing, how can anybody be serious about doing testing on a

> building that is that dusty.

> They should clean the building as much as they can first..

>

I think a combination of bulk testing of any mold found in wall

> cavities, spore testing using negative air pressure, and ERMI is

> probably as good as it gets right now.. given that mycotoxin testing

> is so hard to find.

>

[Guest guest]

This is really difficult to say. It depends on how careful you are and

thoughtful about placement and conditions under which you do testing,

etc, versus how good the professional is that you hire. If you aren't

reacting very much to house right now but want to do some tests to ease

your mind, you may do these tests that are less expense. It's

important enough that you could do both. See what a professional finds

in his one or two tests or whatever you were thinking, and do some

testing yourself.

--- In , " TheBeth " <thebethinator@...>

wrote:

>

> This is good, practical advise, I think. But I have another question,

> since the air sample tests can miss things and are so expensive for

> just one, would the air tests with the petri dishes show the same

> info pretty much, as far as what is in the air at the time of testing?

> Because I could afford to do more of those with labs to tell whats in

> it and how much...

> Or should I just go ahead and get the air test and go from there?

> We still haven't been able to get the guy over yet, maybe tomorrow...

[Guest guest]

Beth,

Barb is pretty much " right on " and she has done lots of testing for

herself. That's a key: Develop your own baseline just like a

professional has to develop a baseline for comparison.

What does that mean? It means the numbers by themselves tell

you almost nothing. What the numbers mean depends on all the

things myself and the others have talked about.

If a professional does only testing without an inspection, building

history, water history, etc then he is wasting your money because

there is no way of knowing what the numbers in the lab results

mean. That's because there are no regulations saying what is

safe and what is unsafe. There is no agreement on what levels of

what types of mold are okay for one person or the general public.

Or even if mold is the problem rather than the mulitude of other

components of the filth caused by moisture.

Don't take our word for it. Check out the General Accounting

Office report to Senator Kennedy's Health committee. It free at:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08980.pdf

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> This is really difficult to say. It depends on how careful you are and

> thoughtful about placement and conditions under which you do testing,

> etc, versus how good the professional is that you hire. If you aren't

> reacting very much to house right now but want to do some tests to ease

> your mind, you may do these tests that are less expense. It's

> important enough that you could do both. See what a professional finds

> in his one or two tests or whatever you were thinking, and do some

> testing yourself.

>

>

> >

> > This is good, practical advise, I think. But I have another question,

> > since the air sample tests can miss things and are so expensive for

> > just one, would the air tests with the petri dishes show the same

> > info pretty much, as far as what is in the air at the time of testing?

> > Because I could afford to do more of those with labs to tell whats in

> > it and how much...

> > Or should I just go ahead and get the air test and go from there?

> > We still haven't been able to get the guy over yet, maybe tomorrow...

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...>

wrote:

That's a key: Develop your own baseline just like a professional has

to develop a baseline for comparison. What does that mean? It means

the numbers by themselves tell you almost nothing.

=====================================

Go Carl! There are two goals in testing. The personal perspective: I

feel sick in this house and my symptoms + my visual inspection and

knowledge of the house's history tells me X, Y or Z may be suspect in

the problem. Therefore, I will do such and such testing to determine

what might be affecting me.

This leads to many kinds of sampling and analysis based upon time

constraints and costs. A 'Home Depot' test recommended to me, was

not informative about amounts of molds but all the types revealed in

the sample were the type to cause serious symptoms in asthmatics and

therefore I didn't feel it worthwhile to try and make it habitable

using air purifiers and what-not...further, an inspection of some

storage areas revealed...KILZ paint had been used in the laundry room

so a prior tenant must have been aware of water intrusion into that

room (most recently painted in the residence). You don't use that

paint because it is pretty - it is also highly toxic.

I have had good results with air purifier media for sampling to

reveal pesticides, PAHs and VOCs. This information allowed me to

make determinations about remaining in bad residences, whether it was

safe to retain my belongings (high residues in clothing can be found

with pesticides!) and also inform physicians about inciting events in

illness for better diagnosis, if not treatment.

The second purpose of testing is for legal documentation/litigation.

That will require another level of testing and careful selection of

labs, collection procedures, tracking of paper work and so forth.

So, accuracy can be attained on many levels - you just need to be

clear on your goals before selecting a test format and lab etc.

Barb Rubin

[Guest guest]

BarbR: How do you use air cleaner media for particles to test? I

have an Austin and the prefilter just catches the big stuff, and the

rest goes into a cartridge that I don't think I can get into. Sounds

like a good source for testing though.

If you have forced air in addition to sampling air cleaner if you

have one, I still recommend sample from cold air returns. If you

don't have forced air, you can collect dust sample from radiator

fins. The warmth of radiator fins DRAWS air to it and disperse

heated air into the house. Those fins collect LOTS of dust on them.

Also air conditioner will do the same thing, pull air in and fins

collect dust on them.

However the cold air returns on a forced air system I think gets any

dust that is in air. I came to this conclusion when I accidentally

lite a fire in my fireplace not realizing the damper was closed, and

walked away not realizing it until the smoke detector went off. When

I came into the living room, it was totally filled with smoke. I got

a stick and opened the damper but thought the white wallpaper on the

walls and ceiling would be ruined, but surprise they were as white as

before after the smoke cleared!! Reason apparently was that I leave

the central force air fan on always, 'fan on', rather than 'auto

fan', and the forced air fan, although it runs so low I can't hear it

or really feel any air movement, drew ALL of the smoke from the large

room down through the furnace filter. The furnace filter was BLACK

but the living room walls and ceiling had stayed lily white, in fact

the wallpaper was white FLOCKED wall paper, fuzzy or fabric designs

on an off white background. That showed me that ALL the air in house

is drawn through the forced air system, as hard as that is to

believe. Which means furnace filter could be a collection site also

but the finest particles would have passed through, but some that

didn't make it all the way to filter, would probably be on the duct

lining.

>>

> I have had good results with air purifier media for sampling to

> reveal pesticides, PAHs and VOCs. This information allowed me to

> make determinations about remaining in bad residences

[Guest guest]

So if I was to do an open petri air test, would it be pretty accurate

to at least find what kinds of mold are in the air if I set it in

front of the return with the unit running? And I've heard that an

outdoor test isn't really necessary because the environment outside

is constantly changing, but should I still do an outdoor one for

control?

The whole house bothers me, the bedrooms are the worst probably

because they're more closed in, & the areas without carpet the least,

the AC made it a lot worse and the heater makes it worse more

gradually. So I want to test the air in the house itself, as well as

the air coming in from the heater.

I was thinking of doing like 5 different petri air samples or else if

we can get the dang mold testor over here for the air test, would he

get the most accurate reading of whats in the air if he did a test in

the hallway in front of the air return while the unit was running,

because I think we only get one shot with the air test

>

>> If you have forced air in addition to sampling air cleaner if you

> have one, I still recommend sample from cold air returns. If you

> don't have forced air, you can collect dust sample from radiator

> fins. The warmth of radiator fins DRAWS air to it and disperse

> heated air into the house.