Fish oil

February 7, 2006

>>

>> Wow...do you have a citation Chris? I'd love to post this absolutely

>> essential bit of info to some of my lists where fish oil is,

>IMO, wantonly

>> recommended without any mention of vit. A. But I'll need some

>citations for

>> it to be believed.

>Suze,

>

>I'm basing this on everything we've already discussed. I've already

>provided citations that various PUFA oils, whether omega-3 or omega-6,

>long-chain or short-chain, increase peroxides with sufficient E, but

>that A-rich oils do not. You likewise said that the fish oil

>studies that woman sent you accounted for vitamin E when they found an

>increase in oxdation.

Actually only one of the abstracts she sent me showed that alpha tocopherol

does not always prevent oxidative degeneration of spleen cells and RBC. If I

represented the studies as suggesting otherwise, I apologize. I just

relooked at them, and saw that some of them actually accounted for vitamin

B6 status rather than vitamin E status. B6 also seems to have some

inhibitory effects on oxidation.

I still haven't had a chance to get the few

>studies showing contrary effects for fish oils, unfortunately. I

>would have got them Friday but by the time I was driving home from my

>class I was slipping into delerium from this sickness I appear to

>already be bouncing.

OK. Well, I think you mentioned that you'd cited the study or studies that

found that E was not sufficient to protect from lipid peroxidation, but A

and E *together* were, in your dioxin article citations. So I will check

that out when I get a chance.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

February 7, 2006

Suze,

> OK. Well, I think you mentioned that you'd cited the study or studies that

> found that E was not sufficient to protect from lipid peroxidation, but A

> and E *together* were, in your dioxin article citations. So I will check

> that out when I get a chance.

Allright, and I'll try to take a more comprehensive look at the

different studies this weekend.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

March 16, 2006

i have used icelands for 8 months and it really helps a lot.charleen

emluv23@... wrote:

http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=fishoil & sort=Rating

Sorry! here it is...

March 16, 2006

i have used icelands for 8 months and it really helps a lot.charleen

emluv23@... wrote:

http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=fishoil & sort=Rating

Sorry! here it is...

March 16, 2006

I use the Super Omega complex from Spring Valley. They sell it at Walmart.

It has EPA and DHA as well as GLA, flax, safflower oils (they all make up the

omega 3,6,9) it says to take one capsule 3 times daily. I take 2 twice daily

and give my son 2 capsules twice daily. We have been doing that for 8 months

if not longer with no ill effects. Even my daughter takes 1 capsule twice day.

Good luck. Barb

March 16, 2006

You can read what I do, I replied to Missy, it is only my personal opinion

and what I have done. Barb

March 16, 2006

Hi Missy,

I too am ready to start and need start up info. If you get info please forward

to me. I posted several days ago for the first time and either did not get

replies or missed them.

Debbie (tremper6@...)

-------------- Original message --------------

From: <mquilty@...>

> I have a daughter with apraxia and hypotonia. I have been reading everyone's

emails for the last month. I am ready to try the fish oil therapy. Could

someone take me through the start up process. DOSE? EFA? EPA? DHA? Is the

Sundown brand from Walmart alright? Help educate me.

THANKS,

Missy

March 16, 2006

Hi Debbie and Missy!

The following is an old EFA archive from this group which has worked

in this group for years so it's up on the Speechville message

board.

Recently there are a few members who are staying with the same

formula -but raising the dosage to multi dosing two to three times a

day and anecdotally they are observing even more dramatic and

accelerated surges. Due to recent messages I want to clarify that

the following was for the average new member who in the majority

will have a child that is 2 to 4 years old. If your child is around

5 or older you will probably want to start at one a day just for a

week or so and then increase right away to two. Not that you won't

see any changes on the lower dosage but for older children the one a

day (which is comparable to the dosage in infant formula) may not be

enough. Also most see the first plateau somewhere between 3-6

months and the second somewhere between 6 months to a year following

the lower dosage way. We don't know yet as a group if and when

plateaus are reached with higher dosage supplementation. If however

you hit a plateau at any point -you probably want to look to

increase dosage -especially if you are at one a day with a 4 year

old say.

You can run by your child's MD -start with the basic and observe and

go from there. With fish oils typically the changes are within one

day to three weeks almost across the board -so you'll know pretty

soon whether it's " working " ! Let us know the good news!

From

http://www.speech-express.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=620

What fish oil should I give to my baby?

What fish oil should I give to my child?

The confusion is more the brand names than the formulas. In

actuality there really is no such thing as a " children's EFA "

perfect for all children yet. However fish oils can be marketed to

children by making fun flavorings and smaller capsules. Most of

the parents I know squeeze the oil out of the capsule anyway -so

that's besides the point for most of our group.

EFAs are now in baby formula and food, and EFAs come and are used in

a variety of formulas for children for various reasons. Mainly we

hear about the use of them for healthy brain development in regards

to children -but they are even proven to help prevent asthma

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/20/1077072840758.html

And they may be coming to a school lunch near you -if you live in an

area of savvy parents

http://www.valleystar.com/localnews_more.php?id=51945_0_19_0_C

Regarding your specific question: (and to answer your question

Chris)

ProEFA is an Omega 3 (DHA and higher EPA) formula with a small

amount of Omega 6 (GLA) The Omega 3 in the ProEFA is from fish oil -

not from the liver of the fish -so no vitamin A. Only fish oil made

from the

liver of the fish contain vitamin A.

Children's DHA is cod liver oil which since it's from the liver of

the cod fish, it naturally contains Vitamin A. Cod liver oil only

contains Omega 3 (DHA and EPA) about that point:

" Most of our experience is with one, 1.0 gram capsule of ProEFA

(Complete Omega) that contains 144 mg EPA, 99 mg DHA and 40 mg of

GLA. We know that this combination appeared to work well. There

were some other supplements used but we could not conclude anything

about them. I can only say that both EPA and DHA are important and

GLA appears to have an additional positive effect on speech.

ALA, linoleic and oleic acids in " The Total Omega " contribute very

little to the EPA, DHA, and GLA effect.

I see at least 2 possibilities that you could use if you decide to

make the transition from short-chain omega-3s in plants (flax seed

oil containing alpha-linolenic acid or ALA, C18:2n-3) to the long-

chain mixture of EPA (C20:5n-3) and DHA (C22:6n-3). These are DHA

Jr. (30 mg DHA and 20 mg EPA in a serving unit) and Coromega (350 mg

EPA and 230 mg DHA). Both of these have been anecdotally successful

in the past.

Coromega can be divided in two and taken one half in the morning the

other in the evening. If you choose this mode you will provide your

son with the equivalent EPA+DHA of 2 ProEFA capsules per day without

the GLA.

Flax seed oil or freshly ground flax seeds are an excellent source

of the essential omega-3 alpha-linolenic acid (ALA or LNA) which is

the quintessential parent member of the omega-3 family of essential

fatty acids (EFAs). The body transforms it into EPA and the EPA

into DHA. This transformation is very inefficient (the yield is

about 10%) and is further inhibited by over consumption of omega-6

fatty acids from most vegetable oils or certain disease states.

Therefore, it is advisable to independently consume also ready made

EPA and DHA from good quality fish of from high quality fish oil

supplements. Some recommended intakes are listed on the

Introductory lecture on EFAs that I gave at the First Conference on

Therapy of Verbal Apraxia, July 23-24, 2001, town, NJ. (

http://www.cherab.org/news/scientific.html )

The CHERAB Foundation's positive research results on potential

improvement in speech following EFA supplementation are based

on the use of ProEFA (Complete Omega) and that contains also

another essential fatty acid, GLA which is an omega-6 fatty acid.

The latter appears to be beneficial to children with apraxia. It is

not present in flax seed/flaxseed oil.

None of these materials present with any known side effects or

known toxicity in an otherwise healthy person. Nevertheless, we

advise every user of supplements to use them under medical

supervision. We don't know your child and we cannot provide you

with medical advice.

Sincerely,

Katz, Ph.D. "

About mercury and fish oil (vs. eating fish)

" Fish oils have been tested for various heavy metals like mercury

and there has been enough preliminary proof through studies, as well

as theory from reputable sources, that as I've posted many times

I've heard that the oils from fish may be the safest way to get the

benefits of the EFAs without the toxins due to the fact that mercury

etc. binds to the proteins/muscles of the fish.

" Measurement of mercury levels in concentrated over-the-counter fish

oil preparations: is fish oil healthier than fish? "

" CONCLUSIONS: Fish are rich in omega-3 fatty acids, and their

consumption is recommended to decrease the risk of coronary artery

disease. However, fish such as swordfish and shark are also a source

of exposure to the heavy metal toxin, mercury. The fish oil brands

examined in this manuscript have negligible amounts of mercury and

may provide a safer alternative to fish consumption. "

Division of Laboratory Medicine, Department of Pathology,

Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School, Boston,

Mass 02114, USA.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=1\

4632570 & dopt=Abstract

And one other thing to keep in mind for those like me who do eat

both fish and take fish oil, there are toxins in the fish you eat

that won't be in the oil For example while mercury etc. binds to

the protein (muscle of the fish) so it's not in the oil of the

fish. From what I've read -the largest problem with fish oil itself

is rancidity. Oxygen and fish oil doesn't mix well.

Consumer Reports had this to say (most likely because toxins in

many cases bind to the protein and most oils are not tested for

rancidity)

" Consumer Reports tested 16 top-selling fish-oil pills which, like

other supplements, aren't closely regulated by the FDA.

Consumer Reports' Metcalf says the test results are

reassuring, " We found that all 16 brands that we tested had the

amount of Omega-3s that they said they did, which is good news. And,

we don't always find that with supplements. "

Since fish can contain toxins, Metcalf says Consumer Reports also

checked the supplements for purity, " We tested for three kinds of

toxins that often appear in fish — mercury, dioxin, and PCBs. "

Testers didn't find significant levels of toxins in any of the pills

tested, so you don't have to worry about contaminants. "

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/features/consumerwatch/consumer_070303_om

ega3.html

" The omega-3 fatty acids offer some unique benefits, should they

prove to be truly effective mood stabilizers. The advantages of the

omega-3 fatty acids as mood stabilizers include the apparent acute

efficacy in both the manic and depressive phases of bipolar

disorder, their lack of toxicity, as well as high patient

acceptance. In addition, omega-3 fatty acids confer some health

benefits during chronic use, such as possible reduction in the risk

of a fatal myocardial infarction. In addition, the omega-3 fatty

acids have no documented adverse drug interactions, and appear to be

safe (and possibly beneficial) in pregnancy and in children. "

http://ods.od.nih.gov/news/conferences/w6w3_abstracts.html

" I had the wonderful opportunity to hear ph Hibbeln, M.D.,

Chief,

Outpatient Clinic National Institute of Alcoholism and Alcohol

Abuse, NIH, Bethesda, land at the First Apraxia Conference

http://www.cherab.org/news/scientific.htm lecture about the

importance of PUFA -especially during pregnancy when you are growing

a brain inside you. If you don't consume enough PUFAs while

pregnant -the babies body will pull it from the mother's body. It's

his theory and research as to why so many mom's experience post

partum depression. http://www.beachpsych.com/pages/cc46.html In

additionit is proven that the PUFAs are important for cognitive

ability.

http://neuroscience.nih.gov/Lab.asp?Org_ID=352

Here is a quote from the US Department of Agriculture,

Environmental Chemistry Laboratory, Agricultural Research Service,

20705, Beltsville, MD, USA

Brain-specific lipids from marine, lacustrine, or terrestrial food

resources: potential impact on early African Homo sapiens. The

polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) composition of the mammalian

central nervous system is almost wholly composed of two long-chain

polyunsaturated fatty acids (LC-PUFA), docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)

and arachidonic acid (AA). PUFA are dietarily essential, thus normal

infant/neonatal brain, intellectual growth and development cannot be

accomplished if they are deficient during pregnancy and lactation.

Uniquely in the human species, the fetal brain consumes 70% of the

energy delivered to it by mother. DHA and AA are needed to construct

placental and fetal tissues for cell membrane growth, structure and

function. Contemporary evidence shows that the maternal circulation

is depleted of AA and DHA during fetal growth. Sustaining normal

adult human brain function also requires LC-PUFA.Homo sapiens is

unlikely to have evolved a large, complex, metabolically expensive

brain in an environment which did not provide abundant dietary LC-

PUFA.

http://www.unl.ac.uk/ibchn/e_Link/cbpbbmb2002.htm

" The omega-3 fatty acids offer some unique benefits, should they

prove to be truly effective mood stabilizers. The advantages of the

omega-3 fatty acids as mood stabilizers include the apparent acute

efficacy in both the manic and depressive phases of bipolar

disorder, their lack of toxicity, as well as high patient

acceptance. In addition, omega-3 fatty acids confer some health

benefits during chronic use, such as possible reduction in the risk

of a fatal myocardial infarction. In addition, the omega-3 fatty

acids have no documented adverse drug interactions, and appear to be

safe (and possibly beneficial) in pregnancy and in children. "

http://ods.od.nih.gov/news/conferences/w6w3_abstracts.html

Here is an archive answer to answer more on EFAs:

" I will use the following examples with the brand name ProEFA since

that's the formula/dosage that seems to work the best for most of us

(Efalex and EyeQ are similar Omega 3/6 formulas that also have good

reports) For any brand name of Omega 3/6 formula -you could make

the same formula by mixing together fish oil and either primrose or

borage seed oil if you prefer -or as found -another brand

name with a similar formula (and I hope also a good quality)

If you mix two fish oils together which is fine if you know why you

are doing that: Look at the amount of DHA, EPA (Omega 3) and the

amount of GLA (Omega 6) and then add them all together to see what

formula and dosage you now have is. So for those of you that ask -

you can mix any brand names together you would like -however what

you could change is the three things above (dosage, formula and

*quality (*if one of the companies you start using has rancid oils

which is not uncommon when it comes to fish oils -so make sure all

brands you use are pure) Keep in mind in anecdotal feedback done by

parents from all over through CHERAB -that pure Omega 3 or pure

Omega 6 either showed no results -or very little results in almost

all cases. Pure Omega 3 would include pure cod liver oil, fish oil,

flax seed oil without any Omega 6. So even though there is only a

small amount of GLA (Omega 6) in the formulas we found to be

successful -GLA appears to be important to be there for some

reason. GLA has anti-inflammatory properties which perhaps enable

to DHA and EPA to get to where it's needed in the brain?

Dosage of one capsule a day ProEFA that at the lowest dosage appears

to be the best -

148 mg EPA

99 mg DHA

40 mg GLA

Here is what many of us have found to be the best plan

anecdotally:

....start with the basic formula, one ProEFA a day, we

saw surges in a few days to three weeks which continued for months -

we then reached a plateau after around 6 months.

At this point we raised the dosage to two capsules of ProEFA a day

and once again had those surges which lasted again for months.

When we reached the next plateau after around a year, instead of

going to three a day - we squeezed 1/2 to one capsule of ProEPA into

the 2 capsules of ProEFA and for almost all of us that try -that

created another surge.

Over time -you may raise the dosage up higher -and you may slightly

change the formula to raise the Omega 3 over the Omega 6 ratio.

Most found raising the EPA vs. the DHA or GLA to be best -but

you need to know your own child, keep track of his progress through

both your own observations and that of the professionals -with the

advice of your child's doctor -to know what is best for him/her.

There is much more in the archives both here -as well as more

information at

http://www.cherab.org/information/indexinformation.html#diet

http://www.speechville.com

Since I receive lots of calls about this -I wanted to list the most

common changes in an apraxic or other speech disordered child on

EFAs from what I've read and heard and seen.

1. Increase in babbling or attempts at sounds.

2. Increase in imitation.

Changes also can be looked for in (what you see as positive or

negative)

sleep

attention

appetite

focus

behavior

stools

Next will come a breakthrough of something you were probably working

on for a bit -so you will be excited but will think " Well -I don't

want to get my hopes up we were working on that for awhile now -

maybe it's just a coincidence " However after the second or third

surge in a short period of time -and then another - you are pretty

sure things are different and it's at this point the professionals

and the rest of the family and your friends are noticing it too -

maybe about two to three weeks now.

OK -the next stage is pure elation and hope -you see the light and

no longer feel as desperate and want to share this new information

with everyone and anyone. As the months go by and your child

continues to progress at a much more rapid rate -you may even start

to doubt the original diagnosis -especially if you started EFA

supplementation at two -and perhaps the SLP that diagnosed the

apraxia who also was at first excited is starting to second guess if

the original diagnosis was correct as well.

Unless you have to stop the ProEFA (or other Essential Fatty Acids)

and literally have the chance to see the regression of acquired

speech and language skills, attempts, and changes in behavior like

we did with Tanner (and/or have a chance to again witness the second

surge when your child is put back on the EFAs) -that doubt will

probably remain somewhere in your mind and in others around your

child. So the " I told you that he would start talking when he was

ready " comments should be expected of course.

Up to this point is understandable to me -it's the point after this

that is confusing to me, and perhaps not the best stage for our

children and for raising awareness or having research done to find

out what is happening to our children and why. Perhaps because we

have truly hit a paradigm shift...

As Dr. Agin states the EFAs actually appear to be in some

ways " curing " the apraxic child -even those diagnosed with severe

oral and verbal apraxia, hypotonia, sensory and behavioral issues.

Especially those started at younger ages.

The child on ProEFA or some other EFA formula's like it no longer

fits the criteria of the classic definition of apraxia -and yet

doesn't fit the classic perception of what a late talker is

either...

Some of the parents become more focused on other everyday activities

with their child and start to drift away from the support sources.

Problem with this attitude is that unless your child is really up to

speed on all aspects of speech and language, the support sources

that helped in the beginning will still benefit your child today.

ProEFA alone is not the only answer and until we know how and why it

works (or why in a handful of children it doesn't) we can't improve

on it "

Know there is lots of information here -but if you have to learn

just one thing from all of this it's right up on top -there is

always hope!

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:59 pm

Subject: Re: Question about Fish oils

Hi Sara -use the liquid if you have it. Also the shelf life isn't

long so use it quick anyway (if your child doesn't mind the taste of

it-mine does) Some here may like the liquid -but the capsules are

better in my opinion for various reasons.

from a recent post:

And if taste is an issue -you may want to try capsule. My son and

others here do taste the difference between capsule and liquid.

Could have to do with exposure to oxygen?

" Liquid vs. capsule? Hands down my vote is capsule because it lasts

way longer, easy to control dosage, easy to travel with, not a big

deal if you spill the bottle over. Passed Tanner taste test (liquid

didn't)

And..yes...you can just use a pin and " poof " like magic the capsule

is 'oil' but the oil without a capsule -can't turn it into a capsule.

resources for EFAs

'Hi !

That is great news about the surges you are seeing so far in your

child within the typical one to three week period. Because you are

new to the group, and there are many other new people here too -I

wanted to once again share a view on the 'new' ProEFA liquid you may

not have thought of from a cut from an archived post which cleared

up a confusing thread of posts about accurate supplementation of

EFAs using liquid vs capsules:

" Due to the confusion of what dosage of the oils since the

introduction of the ProEFA oil in the bottle about a month or so ago

(vs. the capsules which are what most of us have used for years up

to the bottle oil) below is a reply about dosage of straight oil

from developmental pediatrician Dr. Marilyn Agin

http://www.cherab.org/information/speechlanguage/advisoryagin.html

....Around just 1/4 a teaspoon of ProEFA oil will be around the same

as 'one' capsule of ProEFA since " 1/2 teaspoon of ProEFA oil is

close to the equivalent of about 2 capsules of ProEFA "

Sadly -it still does appear that unless NN offers a dropper that

clearly has lines that state " one capsule " " two capsules " or

something like that as a guide as I suggested -that with use of the

oils -those of you using the straight oil will no longer be able to

share with all of us accurately -or even know yourself - what dosage

you are giving your child you are finding to be " too high " " too

low " or " perfect! " You will only be able to estimate. The best we

can advise now with the oil is that " 1/2 teaspoon of ProEFA oil is

close to the equivalent of about 2 capsules of ProEFA "

As I always say -brand name does NOT matter -only

Formula

Dosage

Quality

However we can use brand names as an easy to understand guide.

In our group we have found ProEFA -Efalex and EyeQ to be the three

best Omega 3 -6 oils, with ProEFA being the best so far overall due

to " it works best at low dosage " . With ProEFA -here is the dosage

which we as a group have found to be effective over the past number

of years with hundreds and thousands of children, and that has been

posted over and over at the CHERAB list. If any of you can figure

out a great way to translate this to the use of straight oil without

the capsules as a guide -please let us all know. In the meantime -

will one of the pharmaceutical R & D people in this group design an

EFA patch already so we can just slap that on our children instead

of all of this?!!

To start:

DHA -around 100 mg

EPA -around 150 -250 mg

GLA -around 30-50 mg

The only dosage we as a group know to be effective is to start with

one capsule of ProEFA a day -then go to two capsules of ProEFA a day

when you see a plateau in about 6 months to a year -then instead of

going to three capsules of ProEFA a day when you see a plateau again

in a year or more -you stay with the two ProEFA capsules a day and

add one capsule of ProEPA.

Just a reminder that the ProEFA oil needs to be refrigerated once

opened. Also once opened it has a shelf life of 2 months. ProEFA

capsules have a shelf life of almost 4 years -do not have to be

refrigerated once opened -and can be carried in your pocket if you

want. You can do this with the oil but you will smell funny.

I chose the ProEFA capsules over the liquid. As always -they work

the best at the lowest dosage. "

EFA tips and sources

http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efatips.html

http://www.cherab.org/information/dietaryeffects/efabasics.html

=====

March 20, 2006

thank you for the great info. This may be an odd question, given the documented

sucess but... should we wait until Ben is evaluated to obtain a true diagnosis,

or is that unfair to Ben?

deb

Re: Question about Fish oils