Re: Give up belongings? Really?

[Guest guest]

The mattress is probably the most important thing to get rid of. She is SICK

and is

SLEEPING on it.

Please don't sell your furniture. You are only passing your problem to another

unsuspecting person. Do you want other's to get sick like your wife?

What makes you think other would want contamination to go into their house? How

would

you feel if someone's child gets very sick because of your contaminated

furniture they

bought without knowing it was contaminated.

That child could be affected for the rest of their life.

Get rid of everything porous, including mattresses.

>

> I posted once before. My wife is sick with chronic fatigue syndrome.

> She is being told that we have to get rid of all our belongings.

> Granted this is only by one or two people.

>

> I've talked to a couple mold professionals who don't believe that it's

> necessary to get rid of everything. A particular sticking point is the

> bed. I think we should keep it because it cost a lot of money and I

> haven't finished paying the darn thing off yet!

>

> We will be selling most of our furniture. I want her to get better but

> is this really necessary?

>

> Thanks-

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

If your wife is sick from toxic mold exposure and the furniture including your

bed that you presently have in your home was in your previous home where the

original toxic mold source was from then ABSOLUTELY YES you must get rid of that

furniture and your bed/bedding. It will be impossible for your wife to recover

from toxic mold exposure if the furniture has toxic mold spores on them. Trust

me as i learned this the hard way. Once someone is re-exposed to toxic mold

spores we revert back to pre treatment health atleast in my case.

God Bless

Elias

From: Terri <tlc6@...>

Subject: [] Give up belongings? Really?

Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 4:51 PM

I posted once before. My wife is sick with chronic fatigue syndrome.

She is being told that we have to get rid of all our belongings.

Granted this is only by one or two people.

[Guest guest]

I'm pretty sure they make plastic liners for most sizes of mattresses,

that might be something you could do at least until you could afford a

new mattress, unless she's sensitive to plastic also.

I'm no expert though, so don't rely on me. I'd ask some of the other

members if that is a good idea or not...

>

> The mattress is probably the most important thing to get rid of.

She is SICK and is

> SLEEPING on it.

>

[Guest guest]

, there will be alot of different opinions you will get depending on who you

talk to. Here where we have all been through it already made our mistakes,

talked about it and found what was the best way to handle things (I believe) is

where you will get the best advice.

 

First when you say chronic fatuige, do you mean from mold exposure or something

else. If there has been exposure and you are leaving to go somewhere else, the

LAST thing you want to do is cross contaminate. First and foremost the bed

should be the first thing to go and then yes, the rest. Some have kept some

stuff but from my point of view and experience I can assure you it will cost way

less in the long run than to go through this over and over and over. Then there

are all the medical bills while you are going through it that are being

prolonged and for nothing because that book you couldnt get rid of or whatever

keeps makeing her sick again.

The omnly things there is really question about wether or not you might be able

to keep and clean are metal smooth finishes. Nothinh wood, material or pourus.

Again my opinion now, and it was differernt in the beggining, but now is dump it

all and get the freshest start possiable.

 

So, yes, it is true. I will let the others give you an opinion and as always if

you have any other questions just ask...

 

Chris...

From: Terri <tlc6@...>

Subject: [] Give up belongings? Really?

Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 7:51 PM

I posted once before. My wife is sick with chronic fatigue syndrome.

She is being told that we have to get rid of all our belongings.

[Guest guest]

I think it's against the law to sell mattresses, isn't it? At least it

is here but then people do it anyway. In a community advertising

paper, people usually advertise the boxspring for sale and then 'give

the mattress' away with it, to get around the law that way.

You could look for a plastic mattress cover, then zip over. Get the

kind that completely enclosed mattres, not just cover the top. Then

there is a zipper. You can put electric tape over the zipper but you

can't probably tap the whole thing shut as it probably needs a place

where some air can escape when person or baby is laid down on it.

If it is for regular bed size frame and not a crib, you can get an air

mattress to replace the existing mattress. Less money and also no

place for dust mites to hide. Walmart carries some brands that have

air mattresses that are same size as standard mattresses and fit onto

frames or they did have last time I looked.

--- In , " TheBeth " <thebethinator@...>

wrote:

>

> I'm pretty sure they make plastic liners for most sizes of mattresses,

> that might be something you could do at least

[Guest guest]

,

I second the opinions already offered. They've been there, done

that and learned the hard way. My modification is that not all

people become as highly reactive as most on this group. This

means others can easily tolerate levels of mold, bacteria and

other contaminants which we can't.

However, when an individual becomes as sensitized and as

reactive as you describe, getting rid of eveything is often the only

option. If you want to try salvaging anything, start with the

smooth, hard surfaced contents and thoroughly clean them. You

don't need bleach or expensive (toxic) disinfectants or anti-

microbials because killing doesn't help. It must be removed and

cleaning smooth surfaces removes it.

Some on this group, and on others, still react after cleaning.

Whether it is mycotoxins or some other component of mold and

bacteria becomes irrelevant. Cleaning doesn't work so don't

waste more time, energy and money. Dispose of it and replace as

you can afford.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> , there will be alot of different opinions you will get depending on who

you talk to. Here where we have all been through it already made our mistakes,

talked about it and found what was the best way to handle things (I believe) is

where you will get the best advice.

>  

> First when you say chronic fatuige, do you mean from mold exposure or

something else. If there has been exposure and you are leaving to go somewhere

else, the LAST thing you want to do is cross contaminate. First and foremost the

bed should be the first thing to go and then yes, the rest. Some have kept some

stuff but from my point of view and experience I can assure you it will cost way

less in the long run than to go through this over and over and over. Then there

are all the medical bills while you are going through it that are being

prolonged and for nothing because that book you couldnt get rid of or whatever

keeps makeing her sick again.

> The omnly things there is really question about wether or not you might be

able to keep and clean are metal smooth finishes. Nothinh wood, material or

pourus. Again my opinion now, and it was differernt in the beggining, but now is

dump it all and get the freshest start possiable.

>  

> So, yes, it is true. I will let the others give you an opinion and as always

if you have any other questions just ask...

>  

> Chris...

>

>

>

> From: Terri <tlc6@...>

> Subject: [] Give up belongings? Really?

>

> Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 7:51 PM

>

> I posted once before. My wife is sick with chronic fatigue syndrome.

> She is being told that we have to get rid of all our belongings.

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No. It is not just Stachy that is bad. Other molds such as aspergillus and

pennicilium can also cause problems. As far as selling your furniture: some

people do not react as they have not been exposed to an excessive amount of

mold that has made them hypersensitive. Just because your furniture makes

your wife sick does not necessarily mean it will make all people sick. It

sounds to me like your wife definitely needs to be removed from what is making

her

ill (or what is making her ill removed from her). If you decide to discard

your furnishing by giving them away or selling them, just make sure you do so

with full disclosure of why you are doing it. This will protect you from

any future possible liability and will protect the recipient from illness. ie:

if they start getting symptoms, they would know they needed to get rid of

your furniture. Most likely, if your furniture has no visible mold growth on

it, it would probably be fine for the average, non reactive person...I believe.

Sharon K

In a message dated 11/26/2008 5:22:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

thomasryan41@... writes:

I thought it was just Stachy that was bad?

[Guest guest]

Porous things that have spent time in seriously moldy buildings make

hypersensitized people sick.

This has been the experience of people who have been hypersensitiized

to mold by a heavy exposure. It has nothing to do with their cost or

the injustice of it.

The least contaminated of items could perhaps be used by nonsensitized

people, just as nonsensitized people can often live in buildings that

have been 'remediated' to a 'pre loss condition' or average condition.

Once hypersensitized, those who were hypersensitized by the heavy

exposures need to be away from mold.

That means they need to have the buildings totally cleaned of mold and

moldy items.. or they wont be able to be in them.

That can be hard, if a building has been abused for a long time, it

may be less cost effective than rebuilding it from scratch.

There are basic things that can be done to make basically dry

buildings safe again. The same thing goes with belongings. Some are

cleanable, some aren't. Its complicated - its been shown that the

contamination does not coresspond to spores so simply examining

something for spores won't show if its safe or clean.

Hypersensitized people have a very hard time. They may find it very

hard to be in many marginal or even " normal " buildings after that.

Thats why many people who have been hypersensitized to mold end up

moving from one place to another looking for a completely nonmoldy

place where they can begin their recovery. Their systems are just

saying " enough, no more " .

People's immune systems react to things that have threatened them in

the past. That is a life or death situation for human survival,

millions of years of evolution has taught our bodies how to protect

themselves from death by raising cytokine levels in response to

challenge by toxic stimuli that they have learned.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:24 PM, <thomasryan41@...> wrote:

[Guest guest]

--- In , " " <thomasryan41@...>

wrote:

>

> I thought it was just Stachy that was bad? Is it other molds too?

Yes, there a quite a few other molds that are bad, and also bacteria

levels are increased with water damage.

> Why is the mattress bad? There is no mold on it.

>

If there is a mold problem in the home, there are microscopic spores,

particles, and possibly toxins in the air; amounts could be in the

millions. Air moves through many materials. Think of a cushion - when

you sit on it, air is pushed out as the cushion deflates some. When

you get up, air is sucked back in as the cushion re-inflates. A

mattress does the same thing.

I don't believe a plastic cover would offer protection against a

contaminated mattress. I think plastic is actually porous to some

extent, because it is able to absorb (think odors & stains).

[Guest guest]

Should we just dump the bed then? Or can we put it in storage for a couple

weeks and then see if my wife reacts to it (my wife's idea)? What about

books? I have many books that I need for my job. Is there a way to get the

spores off them? (there's no mold on them).

My wife was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. Her doctor thinks it's

due to a viral infection but she thinks mold is a factor. Her doctor never

listened to her but then we found mold in the wall. He wants her to start

Valcyte? I'm not so sure about Valcyte. Seeing what you all have said I'm

thinking we need to get out of here (we are moving) and get rid of

everything? Man that's a tough one but I'll do it. I want my wife back. We

both want kids.

Will this help her? Can you suggest anything else?

-

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:45 PM, we.arethecanaries <

we.arethecanaries@...> wrote:

> --- In <%40>,

> Yes, there a quite a few other molds that are bad, and also bacteria

> levels are increased with water damage.

>

> If there is a mold problem in the home, there are microscopic spores,

>

[Guest guest]

I remember wondering if inflatable furniture would be " mold proof "

because it isn't porous, right? I asked a mycologist and they told me

that the same material that inflatable furniture is made out of grows

mold, a good example is shower curtains...an aspergillus spp. that

makes people sick, loves soft vinyl..Also, an aspergillus that likes

to grow, similarly, in a very thin film on latex paint can cause major

health effects in that situation because then, and at very few other

times, for some reason, a asp/pen species was recently discovered to

produce chemicals in " highly respirable particles " of " ergot

alkaloids " that are known to produce extremely powerful and dangerous

effects in humans.

for example..

Association of ergot alkaloids with conidiation in Aspergillus fumigatus.

M Coyle, C Kenaley, R Rittenour, G Panaccione

and

Appl Environ Microbiol. 2005 Jun ;71 (6):3106-11 15933008 (P,S,G,E,

Abundant respirable ergot alkaloids from the common airborne fungus

Aspergillus fumigatus.

G Panaccione, M Coyle

Division of Plant & Soil Sciences, Genetics & Developmental Biology

Program, 401 Hall, West Virginia University, town, West

Virginia 26506-6058, USA. danpan@...

Ergot alkaloids are mycotoxins that interact with several monoamine

receptors, negatively affecting cardiovascular, nervous, reproductive,

and immune systems of exposed humans and animals. Aspergillus

fumigatus, a common airborne fungus and opportunistic human pathogen,

can produce ergot alkaloids in broth culture. The objectives of this

study were to determine if A. fumigatus accumulates ergot alkaloids in

a respirable form in or on its conidia, to quantify ergot alkaloids

associated with conidia produced on several different substrates, and

to measure relevant physical properties of the conidia. We found at

least four ergot alkaloids, fumigaclavine C, festuclavine,

fumigaclavine A, and fumigaclavine B (in order of abundance),

associated with conidia of A. fumigatus. Under environmentally

relevant conditions, the total mass of ergot alkaloids often

constituted >1% of the mass of the conidium. Ergot alkaloids were

extracted from conidia produced on all media tested, and the greatest

quantities were observed when the fungus was cultured on latex paint

or cultured maize seedlings. The values for physical properties of

conidia likely to affect their respirability (i.e., diameter, mass,

and specific gravity) were significantly lower for A. fumigatus than

for Aspergillus nidulans, Aspergillus niger, and Stachybotrys

chartarum. The demonstration of relatively high concentrations of

ergot alkaloids associated with conidia of A. fumigatus presents

opportunities for investigations of potential contributions of the

toxins to adverse health effects associated with the fungus and to

aspects of the biology of the fungus that contribute to its success.

Mesh-terms: Air Microbiology; Aspergillus fumigatus :: growth &

development; Aspergillus fumigatus :: metabolism; Chromatography, High

Pressure Liquid; Culture Media; Ergolines :: chemistry; Ergolines ::

metabolism; Ergot Alkaloids :: adverse effects; Ergot Alkaloids ::

chemistry; Ergot Alkaloids :: metabolism; Humans; Indole Alkaloids ::

chemistry; Indole Alkaloids :: metabolism; Research Support, U.S.

Gov't, Non-P.H.S.; Respiratory Hypersensitivity :: etiology; Spectrum

Analysis, Mass;

also

Appl Environ Microbiol. 2005 Jan ;71 (1):114-22 15640178 (P,S,G,E,

[Cited?]

Detection of airborne Stachybotrys chartarum macrocyclic trichothecene

mycotoxins on particulates smaller than conidia.

[My paper] T L Brasel, D R , S C , D C Straus

Department of Microbiology and Immunology, TTUHSC, 3601 4th St.,

Lubbock, TX 79430, USA.

Highly respirable particles (diameter, <1 microm) constitute the

majority of particulate matter found in indoor air. It is hypothesized

that these particles serve as carriers for toxic compounds,

specifically the compounds produced by molds in water-damaged

buildings. The presence of airborne Stachybotrys chartarum

trichothecene mycotoxins on particles smaller than conidia (e.g.,

fungal fragments) was therefore investigated. Cellulose ceiling tiles

with confluent Stachybotrys growth were placed in gas-drying

containers through which filtered air was passed. Exiting particulates

were collected by using a series of polycarbonate membrane filters

with decreasing pore sizes. Scanning electron microscopy was employed

to determine the presence of conidia on the filters. A competitive

enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) specific for macrocyclic

trichothecenes was used to analyze filter extracts. Cross-reactivity

to various mycotoxins was examined to confirm the specificity.

Statistically significant (P < 0.05) ELISA binding was observed

primarily for macrocyclic trichothecenes at concentrations of 50 and 5

ng/ml and 500 pg/ml (58.4 to 83.5% inhibition). Of the remaining

toxins tested, only verrucarol and diacetylverrucarol (nonmacrocyclic

trichothecenes) demonstrated significant binding (18.2 and 51.7%

inhibition, respectively) and then only at high concentrations. The

results showed that extracts from conidium-free filters demonstrated

statistically significant (P < 0.05) antibody binding that increased

with sampling time (38.4 to 71.9% inhibition, representing a range of

0.5 to 4.0 ng/ml). High-performance liquid chromatography analysis

suggested the presence of satratoxin H in conidium-free filter

extracts. These data show that S. chartarum trichothecene mycotoxins

can become airborne in association with intact conidia or smaller

particles. These findings may have important implications for indoor

air quality assessment.

Mesh-terms: Air Microbiology; Air Pollution, Indoor :: analysis;

Chromatography, High Pressure Liquid; Enzyme-Linked Immunosorbent

Assay; Micropore Filters; Mycotoxins :: analysis; Particle Size;

Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't; Stachybotrys :: growth &

development; Stachybotrys :: metabolism; Trichothecenes :: analysis;

also see

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1950243

Biomechanics of conidial dispersal in the toxic mold Stachybotrys chartarum

Fungal Genet Biol. Author manuscript; available in PMC 2008 July 1.

Published in final edited form as:

Fungal Genet Biol. 2007 July; 44(7): 641–647.

Published online 2006 December 24. doi: 10.1016/j.fgb.2006.12.007.

PMCID: PMC1950243

NIHMSID: NIHMS25417

Tucker, L. Stolze, H. Kennedy, and P. Money1

Department of Botany, Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45056, USA

1Corresponding author; e-mail, moneynp@...

[Guest guest]

I can only speak from my experience (which is due to mold inside

walls) I had to give up everything that was not glass or metal. I

didn't at first and learned the hard way. Now, I think there are

varying levels of sensitivity in exposed people; there are others from

my household who don't react as badly as I. I found all paper

including books to be a big problem. Maybe you could try hepa

vaccuming them, didn't work for me. Cross contamination is a real

problem - taking your stuff to a new clean place can defeat the

purpose of moving. Remember, these spores, etc. are microscopic and

abundant.

Many of us have received the chronic fatigue diagnosis. I don't know

anything about Valcyte and haven't been able to afford to visit the

top 'mold' docs as some on this list have. Be aware that reproductive

problems can occur due to mold, in yourself and/or her. (For me, it

was ovarian cancer.) You want to have children - I would play it safe

and get out and try to get good medical help ASAP. You could put your

stuff in storage and deal with it later, but usually each exposure

magnifies reactions and recovery takes longer.

Where do you live? Someone on this list might be able to recommend a

nearby doctor. You need a doctor who understands, can do some testing,

treatment and give you guidance.

Good luck to you and keep us posted.

>

> > --- In

<%40>,

> > Yes, there a quite a few other molds that are bad, and also bacteria

> > levels are increased with water damage.

> >

> > If there is a mold problem in the home, there are microscopic spores,

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If you put it in storage for a few years.. not weeks..

Since your wife is effected far more than you, you probably are the

one who should attempt any cleaning..

If its possible, do it outdoors.. don't clean it in your post-mold place..

Just a few weeks would not be enough.

There isn't much that can be done for soft, porous things like

mattresses, because they are right next to the body, they really

should not be used.. unless the contamination was really light and

they can somehow be washed.. well...preferably with soap and water and

bleach, and then rinsed WELL..

Washing will get rid of viable spores.. but they would probably still

make a sensitive person sick..

Wooden bedframes that were never wet or grew mold themselves can

probably be cleaned if you scrub them well with soap and water and

then rinse them with clean water and dry them well afterward..

If I were you if your wife is sick, I would buy a new mattress..

Metal bedframes could certainly be cleaned..

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 3:50 PM, <thomasryan41@...> wrote:

> Should we just dump the bed then? Or can we put it in storage for a couple

> weeks and then see if my wife reacts to it (my wife's idea)? What about

> books? I have many books that I need for my job. Is there a way to get the

> spores off them? (there's no mold on them).

>

> My wife was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. Her doctor thinks it's

> due to a viral infection but she thinks mold is a factor. Her doctor never

> listened to her but then we found mold in the wall. He wants her to start

> Valcyte? I'm not so sure about Valcyte. Seeing what you all have said I'm

> thinking we need to get out of here (we are moving) and get rid of

> everything? Man that's a tough one but I'll do it. I want my wife back. We

> both want kids.

>

> Will this help her? Can you suggest anything else?

>

> -

>

> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 10:45 PM, we.arethecanaries <

>

> we.arethecanaries@...> wrote:

>

>> --- In <%40>,

>> Yes, there a quite a few other molds that are bad, and also bacteria

>> levels are increased with water damage.

>>

>> If there is a mold problem in the home, there are microscopic spores,

>>

>

[Guest guest]

I've spent the past couple of years monitoring the progress of CFS

patients taking Valcyte and other antivirals on various Web groups.

In addition, I took a relatively mild antiviral (Famvir) while I was

still (unknowingly) living in a moldy house.

My experience on Famvir was very similar to the experience of many of

those taking Valcyte. I got very sick (from " die-off " ) while on the

drug, and did not recover my previous level of functioning until I

started mold avoidance. My response to antibiotics was equally bad,

with a small amount driving my functioning down still lower after

discontinuation.

Fortunately, I've become almost wholly well since then. (Admittedly

the level of mold avoidance that I've engaged in would seem to most

people--even many folks here--to be ridiculously extreme though.)

What I've found is that insofar as I've managed to avoid mold, my

ability to tolerate both antibiotics and antivirals has gone up

dramatically. As long as I'm " clear, " I now get almost no negative

effects from those drugs.

I now think that prescribing a heavy-duty antiviral like Valcyte to

someone living in a moldy environment is a recipe for disaster.

I've seen way too many people who never went back to pre-drug

functioning to be inclined to take chances with it. I've yet to visit

those folks' homes to see if I react to them, but a number of their

case histories make me suspect mold.

I'm not sure why antivirals would make people in moldy environments

permanently worse. However, it is clear that antivirals decrease both

Human Growth Hormone and adrenal hormone levels. If they decrease MSH

levels as well, that would (per Dr. Shoemaker's work) make their mold

susceptibility higher.

In short: I'd suggest addressing the mold before any antibiotic or

antiviral treatment is pursued.

If an individual absolutely determined to try those drugs, they always

could be added later on.

--- In , " " <thomasryan41@...>

wrote:

>

> Should we just dump the bed then?