Re: If you had known sooner, would you have left?

April 18, 2012

So very wise, as always, Deb.

- Helen

>

> I regret not knowing sooner. We were married 24 years before he was

> diagnosed so the past 8 years have been spent repairing the damage done to

> both of us by the emotional abuse we were heaping on each other daily,

> mostly without even knowing we were doing so.

>

> Whether I was to leave the marriage had little to do with his diagnosis and

> more to do with how good/bad I was feeling in the relationship at any given

> time. In general I have felt much better since we knew what we were dealing

> with and were able to find some tools to help us to communicate more

> effectively.

>

> The most important thing I realized once was diagnosed was that the

> things he was doing that hurt me were not done out of malice. That fact

> alone changed the entire dynamic of our marriage. I no longer thought he was

> being mean to me one minute and nice the next, and I no longer doubted my

> sanity or the fact that he truly loved me and in his own way was trying very

> hard to show me and to make our marriage work.

>

> But relationships are never simple so I can't really say that my life might

> not have been better/happier if I had left our marriage early on. But I

> don't think anyone can ever answer that question because we only have

> information about the life we have lived, not the one we didn't or have yet

> to. I know that our marriage has taken both a physical and emotional toll on

> me but those are not 's fault, in fact they are because I came into the

> relationship with my own issues that unfortunately were exacerbated by being

> in a high maintenance relationship.

>

> If I had not had low self esteem in the first place I would not have doubted

> my own sanity nor would I have continued to communicate in ineffective ways

> for as long as I did. And I would have sought help before I crashed to the

> bottom of the mental health well.

>

> So I truly believe that leaving my marriage would not have solved any of my

> problems, but staying caused me to have to deal with them. If I had left my

> own issues would have followed me and I would have been less likely to get

> the help I needed for myself.

>

> I don't think our marriage issues are about NT/AS they are the same issues

> as every marriage can encounter just amplified. But my experience has been

> that as much as the " problems " may have been amplified, so too has the joy

> and love I have experienced. I put it this way: because is so hyper

> focused when he turns his attention towards me it is intoxicating and like

> nothing I believe I could experience with an NT man. The flip side of course

> is that when he looks away I cease to exist in his consciousness. That

> second part was the difficult part until I understood why it was happening.

>

> The man I married and the man I am now married to are so dissimilar that I

> could never have foreseen the man he would become. I too have change in ways

> I could never have foreseen. Unfortunately we don't have crystal balls and

> we can't see into the future so all you have to guide you is the past and

> the present.

>

> I would say that you need to work on yourself first. Then develop the best

> possible support system you can because the better it is the better your

> chances of making your marriage work. Then I would have you ask the hard

> questions:

>

> 1) What can't you live without from your marriage partner and can he

> give them to you?

>

> 2) Are there things at present that he needs from you that you cannot

> see yourself giving for a lifetime?

>

> 3) Have you seen growth or improvement in his ability to cope, function,

> communicate, relate to you, etc.?

>

> 4) Have you grown, are you a better person for having this relationship,

> are you learning how to communicate better and to ask for what you need,

> etc.?

>

> Sorry to tell you this but the question you are seeking the answer to can

> only be answered by you. Only you know how strong you are, what you need,

> want, can live with, and without in your relationships. And there is no way

> of telling if your husband can fulfill your minimum requirements of if in

> some reasonable amount of time he could be able to.

>

> Wishing you peace and joy,

>

> Deb

>

> From: aspires-relationships

> [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of theunspecial

> Sent: April-17-12 1:44 PM

> To: aspires-relationships

> Subject: If you had known sooner, would you have

> left?

>

> Just wondering, for those of you NTs out there who are in long-term

> relationships and marriages with Asperger's partners. If you had known

> sooner, would you have left? Do you regret your relationship now that you

> look back?

>

April 18, 2012

No, I would not have left. I fell in love with my husband and all his quirks,

now that we have a diagnosis does not change it. If we had known about it then,

we certainly could have used strategies to help us out and our relationship

would not be as damaged as it is today. It is damaged, has suffered, but we are

working on it together. I have a lot of growth to do in my own peronal

confidence, he has issues with intimacy and taken me for granted for much too

long. We are working on our relationship and our individuals selves, hoping to

meet in the middle for happiness. We do have one child, she is our everything

and we both feel we need to keep trying for our family unit's sake. I do not

regret falling in love with my husband, I regret not finding the diagnosis much

earlier on, it could have explained a great deal to me.Looking back, I wonder

why did I not see all of the signs as I do now. The best things in life for me

have always been the most difficult, and living with my husband has been no

exception!

>

> Just wondering, for those of you NTs out there who are in long-term

relationships and marriages with Asperger's partners. If you had known sooner,

would you haven't left? Do you regret your relationship now that you look back?

>

April 18, 2012

I've only been giving cursory quick-scan attention to this particular

thread, but one thing which strikes me as odd is that nobody has so far

mentioned marriage vows.

Now I'm not a religious type and I don't believe in following any kind

of dogma, but doesn't the fact that a couple have promised to " have and

to hold each other until death do they part " bear any weight in this

issue these days?

All the talk about choosing whether to leave or stay together seems to

be based purely on selfish pragmatic considerations. Doesn't breaking

one's promise come in to it all? I know it used to in times gone by.

Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but a promise is a binding agreement, and

in my book, people shouldn't make promises if there's any doubt about

whether they're going to be able stick to them. Life would generally be

a lot simpler if that held true, at any rate.

In my own case, my first marriage quickly went downhill after my NT

wife had my unwanted child. We weren't happy but I still felt I had an

obligation to stick with it because that's what we'd promised. In the

end my wife filed for divorce and I was given no choice in the matter,

but I still felt bad about being forced to break my promise.

(diagnosed AS 29 yrs later)

April 18, 2012

For me, breaking a vow certainly did and still does bear weight. However, I don't believe that self preservation or mental health are selfish pragmatic issues.I left when I knew that one of us would end up dead, by my hand, and I really didn't have a preference whether it was him or me. I had an elaborate fantasy about burning the house down, because so many of our fights were over the house and money; then I figured I'd do it with me inside; then (and I liked this idea even better) I figured I'd kill him and burn the house down with us both inside.About then I figured that I had a problem, so I left.If we'd known sooner it MIGHT have made a difference in knowing what he could deal with and what he couldn't, and when my expectations were unreasonable. We may have been able to work out a way to communicate honestly. I don't know. We were married for 20 years, and still very good friends for the 3 years since the divorce. I've recently (sadly) asked him not to contact me unless it is about the children.

I've only been giving cursory quick-scan attention to this particular

thread, but one thing which strikes me as odd is that nobody has so far

mentioned marriage vows.

Now I'm not a religious type and I don't believe in following any kind

of dogma, but doesn't the fact that a couple have promised to "have and

to hold each other until death do they part" bear any weight in this

issue these days?

All the talk about choosing whether to leave or stay together seems to

be based purely on selfish pragmatic considerations. Doesn't breaking

one's promise come in to it all? I know it used to in times gone by.

Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but a promise is a binding agreement, and

in my book, people shouldn't make promises if there's any doubt about

whether they're going to be able stick to them. Life would generally be

a lot simpler if that held true, at any rate.

In my own case, my first marriage quickly went downhill after my NT

wife had my unwanted child. We weren't happy but I still felt I had an

obligation to stick with it because that's what we'd promised. In the

end my wife filed for divorce and I was given no choice in the matter,

but I still felt bad about being forced to break my promise.

(diagnosed AS 29 yrs later)

April 18, 2012

Regarding vows, yes of course they are important promises that are not to be

taken lightly, but to stay married to someone ONLY because of this promise may

not be wise for many for many different reasons. I have strong feelings

personally about staying in a marriage only because you made that

commitment....yes, my parents did because they did not believe in divorce, but

to put an entire family through years of misery only because of a vow makes no

sense to me, and I am somewhat religious. My belief is God realizes we are

human, we make mistakes, but He also gives us a brain and common sense to leave

when we need to and to forgive and learn from our mistakes. While I admire the

responsible response of staying together because of vows, if that is the only

reason someone is staying married to me, I would rather be alone. I believe

most marriages are more complex than this.

..

>

> I've only been giving cursory quick-scan attention to this particular

> thread, but one thing which strikes me as odd is that nobody has so far

> mentioned marriage vows.

>

> Now I'm not a religious type and I don't believe in following any kind

> of dogma, but doesn't the fact that a couple have promised to " have and

> to hold each other until death do they part " bear any weight in this

> issue these days?

>

> All the talk about choosing whether to leave or stay together seems to

> be based purely on selfish pragmatic considerations. Doesn't breaking

> one's promise come in to it all? I know it used to in times gone by.

> Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but a promise is a binding agreement, and

> in my book, people shouldn't make promises if there's any doubt about

> whether they're going to be able stick to them. Life would generally be

> a lot simpler if that held true, at any rate.

>

> In my own case, my first marriage quickly went downhill after my NT

> wife had my unwanted child. We weren't happy but I still felt I had an

> obligation to stick with it because that's what we'd promised. In the

> end my wife filed for divorce and I was given no choice in the matter,

> but I still felt bad about being forced to break my promise.

>

> (diagnosed AS 29 yrs later)

>

April 18, 2012

You are so very kind Helen! No so wise really, just old and experienced. J Now Judy and you are wise!Cheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of helen_foisySent: April-17-12 6:46 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: If you had known sooner, would you have left? So very wise, as always, Deb. - Helen>> I regret not knowing sooner. We were married 24 years before he was> diagnosed so the past 8 years have been spent repairing the damage done to> both of us by the emotional abuse we were heaping on each other daily,> mostly without even knowing we were doing so.> > > > Whether I was to leave the marriage had little to do with his diagnosis and> more to do with how good/bad I was feeling in the relationship at any given> time. In general I have felt much better since we knew what we were dealing> with and were able to find some tools to help us to communicate more> effectively. > > > > The most important thing I realized once was diagnosed was that the> things he was doing that hurt me were not done out of malice. That fact> alone changed the entire dynamic of our marriage. I no longer thought he was> being mean to me one minute and nice the next, and I no longer doubted my> sanity or the fact that he truly loved me and in his own way was trying very> hard to show me and to make our marriage work.> > > > But relationships are never simple so I can't really say that my life might> not have been better/happier if I had left our marriage early on. But I> don't think anyone can ever answer that question because we only have> information about the life we have lived, not the one we didn't or have yet> to. I know that our marriage has taken both a physical and emotional toll on> me but those are not 's fault, in fact they are because I came into the> relationship with my own issues that unfortunately were exacerbated by being> in a high maintenance relationship. > > > > If I had not had low self esteem in the first place I would not have doubted> my own sanity nor would I have continued to communicate in ineffective ways> for as long as I did. And I would have sought help before I crashed to the> bottom of the mental health well.> > > > So I truly believe that leaving my marriage would not have solved any of my> problems, but staying caused me to have to deal with them. If I had left my> own issues would have followed me and I would have been less likely to get> the help I needed for myself.> > > > I don't think our marriage issues are about NT/AS they are the same issues> as every marriage can encounter just amplified. But my experience has been> that as much as the " problems " may have been amplified, so too has the joy> and love I have experienced. I put it this way: because is so hyper> focused when he turns his attention towards me it is intoxicating and like> nothing I believe I could experience with an NT man. The flip side of course> is that when he looks away I cease to exist in his consciousness. That> second part was the difficult part until I understood why it was happening. > > > > The man I married and the man I am now married to are so dissimilar that I> could never have foreseen the man he would become. I too have change in ways> I could never have foreseen. Unfortunately we don't have crystal balls and> we can't see into the future so all you have to guide you is the past and> the present. > > > > I would say that you need to work on yourself first. Then develop the best> possible support system you can because the better it is the better your> chances of making your marriage work. Then I would have you ask the hard> questions:> > 1) What can't you live without from your marriage partner and can he> give them to you?> > 2) Are there things at present that he needs from you that you cannot> see yourself giving for a lifetime?> > 3) Have you seen growth or improvement in his ability to cope, function,> communicate, relate to you, etc.?> > 4) Have you grown, are you a better person for having this relationship,> are you learning how to communicate better and to ask for what you need,> etc.?> > > > Sorry to tell you this but the question you are seeking the answer to can> only be answered by you. Only you know how strong you are, what you need,> want, can live with, and without in your relationships. And there is no way> of telling if your husband can fulfill your minimum requirements of if in> some reasonable amount of time he could be able to.> > > > Wishing you peace and joy,> > Deb> > > > > > From: aspires-relationships > [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of theunspecial> Sent: April-17-12 1:44 PM> To: aspires-relationships > Subject: If you had known sooner, would you have> left?> > > > > > Just wondering, for those of you NTs out there who are in long-term> relationships and marriages with Asperger's partners. If you had known> sooner, would you have left? Do you regret your relationship now that you> look back?>

April 18, 2012

Yes, well thanks for the comments. You do all seem to have convincing

reasons why breaking your promises is/was a lesser evil than the

consequences of staying together.

Attitudes on this have definitily changed over the years though,

because it didn't used to be like this. Couples somehow managed to

muddle through and make the most of a bad job.

Maybe it's partly the fact that everyone knows the breakup option is

available these days and the awareness that other couples in the

community get away with breaking their promises without necessarily

being summarily despatched to the fires of Hades, that encourages

others to follow suit.

I admit I can't fault any of your individual reasons for your breakups

being the best choice, but I feel it still leaves us with the net

result that couples today are less tolerant of their partners'

behaviours than they were in the past. That includes me too, so I

can't claim to be preaching from on high!

So I still maintain that what we're witnessing overall is a

deteriorating situation with more and more breakups and less and less

tolerance.

(showing his traits of perfectionism)

.

April 20, 2012

Hello All,

My name is Bency and My husband has recently been diagnosed with AS. He is 43 and was diagnosed 5 months ago. It has been a journey but clearly no one caught it until now so we have a ways to go. This has been a long and lonely road but I am delighted to find a support group that can understand. I love my husband and I know he tries but does anyone have any advice when it comes to dealing with friends and families?

Even “close friends & family” that know he is autistic will still try to force spontaneous visits and argue with me about large holiday events. We have been together for 5 years but only married for 1. They feel anger towards the both of us and I get a lot of judgment.

Several things are stated such as he is hiding behind his illness and what’s the big deal in he stops in for 10 mins ( 25 person parties) .It hurts me because it is not fair to him. I have had several friends and family members stop talking to me because of this. They don’t understand why I “don’t” leave because I am an extrovert and would often go out but I have changed much of that due to life circumstances.

My husband does stay up whenever I meet a girlfriend for dinner or I am at a family event ( I am no longer invited) but he doesn’t discourage me from having a life. I am in a cross roads trying to figure out what is the best for us. In the interim I have personally chosen to spend more time with him as we learn and grow together. I am even looking for a marriage counselor who understands AS and can helps us. Not sure if one exists or is even affordable????

Early on we fought and I didn’t understand why he could do calculus in his head but needed me to call Pizza Hut. Or why he just could not meet or try with a few of my friends. Once I understood what was really going on, I took a step back. My main focus is on him and building a strong friendship and marriage.

Any input would greatly appreciated.

Thank You,

Bency

, I find it interesting that you would not do " this " again because you

are a social butterfly. I would describe myself that way too, and although I

did curb my social engagement in the early years of my marriage in a strange

way was attracted to me because I was so social and he really enjoyed

watching me be social. He sort of lived vicariously through me and still

does to a lesser degree. Plus all of that watching really helped him

navigate the social world to the extent that most people now have no idea

that he has anything close to Asperger's .

What was hard was communicating effectively with each other about our needs

and negotiating what worked best for us. Some things I did without him, some

he came along with my understanding that he may only be minimally involved

but as the years have gone by he bows out very rarely and he is waaaay more

involved and if the group is small enough and he feels comfortable enough he

may even chat more than I do. As opposed to hiding under a coffee table

during the first few years we were married, which I consider a huge

improvement!

Cheers,

Deb

If you had known sooner, would you have

left?

Greetings:

My response is based solely on my marriage to Larry. The question is, " If

you had known sooner, would you have left? " YES, absolutely YES! I think

he woulkd say yes too. I don't think he would have married me or anyone

else for that matter if he had known. Back then, marriage was expected and

so were difficult times.

Back in those days, AS was unheard of. We still know very little about

autism. In a nut shell, we both brought different skill sets to the table

and they were not enough to sustain the marriage. Larry continues to have

poor social and communication skills along with anger management issues. He

has a low thresh hold for frustration and anxiety. He also has low theory

of mind. He is also 11 years older than me. Plus he has no patience for

kids until they get older. That alone would of been a deal breaker, but he

said he wanted kids and then could not cope.

Looking back some of the factors that played a role were we both came from

families that had a different social economic status. We grew up in

different environments. Larry's mother was a bitter woman and it is

believed his dad and grandfather had AS and they were not nice men. They

abused their wives and it became learned behavior and passed on through the

generations as we never talkjed about it back then.

Like others, I am grateful for our children and learned along the way that I

was a co-dependent that became an enabler in my marriage to keep the peace.

I am back in school studying to be a counselor to help others. Did AS play

a role in my marriage? You would have to define AS. If anger issues, poor

social and communication skills coupled with a weak theory of mind are

co-morbid skills sometimes associated with AS, than no, AS played no part.

To me, it does not really matter as we were a bad match. I have been

divorced for over five years and now can chalk it up to a bad learning

experience. I made a bad choice and paid for it dearly. BUT then again, I

would not be where I am today if I never married Larry.

Due to economics Britt and I had to move back in with Larry. He has been

very good to us, but his behavior has not changed. Mine has and I am not

responsible for his behavior, nor do I care to try and change it. I just

ignore it and leave the room.

I would not do this again mainly because I am a social butter fly and know

many adults with AS but we live in two different worlds. It would not work

for them either and I think this is a good thing that we have so much

awareness about AS today. For others, it is a match made in heaven as we

are all different. The major problem in my marriage was that Larry could

not live in my world and I could not live in his. We all experience life

differently and this was just my experience with my marriage and not a

reflection on the community r other NT/AS couples.

The fact that Larry and I can now co-exist baffles folks and this has

nothing to do with AS. I know ex-spouses that have are still bitter where

AS was not part of the equation. At least Larry and I have moved on and

have a better sense of who we are and where we want to go in life as like

Jane Fonda has written, this is the third Act of our play at " our " age.

There have been some research projects on AS/NT relationships, but none of

the data has been released. This is just " my " personal experience.

Best.

------------------------------------

" We each have our own way of living in the world, together we

are like a symphony.

Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony It all blends

together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

We all contribute to the song of life. "

...Sondra

We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

http://www.aspires-relationships.com

April 20, 2012

Hi Bency,

Your description of the “long and lonely” journey certainly strikes a chord with me and I am sure it does with many here. I have been questioned off and on

many times and hear comments from family and friends about my husband, Phil, about his “hiding behind the diagnosis” and questioning why he does not often attend family functions and other social gatherings (or when he does he sometimes ”disappears” for a

while.

I also have spoken and interacted with many other non-spectrum women in relationships with men on the spectrum both through my 28+ years working at the Indiana

resource Center for Autism and as part of research for a book I wrote with two others, “The Partner’s Guide to Asperger Syndrome” (though actually my husband’s diagnosis is high functioning autism which is more accurate for him).

In Appendix l and l l of my book there are short (4-5 page) suggestions and advice which can be very helpful for family and friends to read to better understand

and support us and our partners. The book itself also describes issues with “real life examples”. I don’t have time to give further details and I am not wanting to leave you hanging. Below is a piece that my co-authors and I wrote at the request of our publisher

to help promote better understanding between partners when one is on the spectrum and one is not. I think it would also help family and friends to better understand and support the couple. In our book, we interviewed over 100 women who were in relationships

with men on the spectrum. Here are some of the best tips we learned from all the partners in these extraordinary relationships:

1. Learn about autism spectrum disorders and how they affect the ASD partner; and in turn the ASD partner must learn about the NS behavior of their partner.

This will help partners understand and respect each other better and help resolve the issues partners face. NS partners can learn from each other as well as

from adults on the autism spectrum, but remember that not everything you hear and read will apply to your ASD partner. The same is true for ASD partners learning about NS behavior. Use the knowledge you gain to ask and probe specific situations with your partner.

Partners seeking to understand each other can help ensure that expectations of and support for each other can be realistic and appropriate.

2. Do not assume you know the intentions of your partner’s behavior.

Always seek to clarify. NS partners cannot interpret ASD behavior through their non-spectrum filter, and assume that they understand the meaning of a particular

behavior of their ASD partner. It’s important to note that this can be especially challenging at the beginning of a diagnosis. The NS partner may feel it’s unfair that the ASD partner cannot often return the empathy, for example. However, once the NS partner

begins to show compassion, it may be awesome how much the ASD partner returns this empathy and understanding.

3. Find outlets to alleviate stress – and use them!

Both partners likely have different ways of alleviating stress and both partners must learn these and express these needs to their partner. Encourage humor

in your life together. This will help enhance the marital relationship. At times (maybe every day) this will mean separate activities. The ASD partner may need a lot of time to themselves and/or “extra” time to pursue their special interests. The NS partner

may need time to “talk” and be emotional with others if the ASD partner cannot be there to “listen”.

4. Communicate with visuals and state exactly what you need (even if it seems obvious).

Use visual information (notes, email, even examples from books or other visual media) to convey or supplement verbal messages. Be creative. Visual information

is much easier for most individuals on the autism spectrum to process, and it can be used as a permanent resource when anxiety, sensory overload or executive functioning skills are causing challenges for the partners. Communication should be as clear, calm

and predictable. Partners should discuss clear and ongoing information about behavioral expectations. Think in terms of explanation instead of correction.

5. Acknowledge and address sensory needs and issues with your partner.

Sensory needs/issues can change over time and even vary from day to day. Make sure partners are heard when asking for a specific accommodation. In situations

where the person on the autism spectrum is not in control, they can get overloaded and shut down or possibly experience a “meltdown”. Both partners need to be aware of this and work together, as much as possible, so both are accommodated. Sensory issues can

include just about all aspects of life, from what clothes, foods, bedding and furnishings are comfortable for both partners, to what environments and activities may be enjoyable for both partners. Sensory issues can also affect intimacy. By following the tips

above, however, even sensory issues in the bedroom can be lessened or resolved.

Bency, I hope gives you a little something to work with for now and I am sure others will chime in.

Best,

Marci

Marci Wheeler, M.S.W.

Indiana Resource Center for Autism

Indiana Institute on Disability and Community

2853 E. Tenth Street

Bloomington, IN 47408-2696

Phone: \Fax:

mwheeler@...

www.iidc.indiana.edu/irca