Re: Jeff, Carl...air conditioning........all the misinformation!

[Guest guest]

Studies Ive seen have said that an UV light has to be

REALLY strong to kill bacteria, viruses and fungal spores.

They do use VERY STRONG UV lights in water treatment, etc,

(so strong you can't look at them, like the sun)

but from what I have read I'd have to come to the conclusion that most

consumer-level products that claim a UV light kills various kinds of

growth are probably scams or marketing gimmics or whatever

you might want to call something that has virtually no added value..

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:10 PM, barb1283 <barb1283@...> wrote:

> Jeff and Carl,

> Talking to an heating/air conditioning guy about cleaning my a/c

> coils, he refers to outside coils should be done once a year but

> inside coils don't need to be cleaned often, according to him, as

> long as I install a UV light above the coils.

[Guest guest]

> He said " moisture mixes with

> dust and dirt that are always in there and that creates a dampish

> smell, but I shouldn't be worry about that " .

I'm no expert on AC units but I'm almost certain this is rubbish and

serious misinformation!

I suggest you read this article (I posted it recently on IEQ group):

Health Complaints in Air Conditioned Buildings

Based on an analysis of existing scientific data about Sick Building

Syndrome

Y Dombrowsky and J Hill L.R.I.C

http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/patients/New/sbarticle.php

There are some guidelines on how to properly clean AC units towards

the end of the text... although it's written in very general terms.

One thing we often forget is that AC units can breed bacteria as well,

and these bacteria secrete endotoxins called lipopolysaccharides (LPS)

which are the same type of toxin that causes sepsis. So it's very

serious. If you read that article you'll see they cited a study in

which AC units without any visible microbial growth and from a

building in which occupants didn't have health complaints, still

harboured vast colonies of endotoxin producing bacteria.

This is the study:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/58/12/3914.pdf

> I'd like to sue the heating and a/c industry! They all say the same

> misinformation...don't worry about smelly, dirty a/c coils because

> they are ALL that way and that makes it okay they assume.

I have been thinking the exact same thing for the past few years. They

are continuously spreading lies, and downplaying the seriousness of

microbial contamination that AC units spread.

I think I would be completely healthy now if it were not for AC units

and the greedy AC industry!

[Guest guest]

Dr Straus did a paper recently on air handling units.. Its on PubMed

I think the abstract said that there were serious problems with many of them.

How could there not be problems when you have dust and water..

[Guest guest]

Only the UVC wavelength is germicidal and this needs to be in close contact to

the microorganism(s) to kill them.  The bulbs have only a certain life (UVC is

the first wavelength to go, but the UVA and UVB will still continue - a blue

light is not indicative, it must be tested).  In general, people don't maintain

the UVC lights well (a layer of dust will stop the UVC - they must be cleaned

weekly and them must be changed out frequently depending on their usage, check

the rating for the UVC, normally changeout must occur every 6 months, but can

vary depending on manufacturer and usage.  I don't recommend them - mostly the

UV will just break down plastics, etc.) 

________________________________

From: LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

Studies Ive seen have said that an UV light has to be

REALLY strong to kill bacteria, viruses and fungal spores.

[Guest guest]

About 60% of all indoor air quality issues are HVAC related.

________________________________

From: LiveSimply <quackadillian@...>

Dr Straus did a paper recently on air handling units.. Its on PubMed

I think the abstract said that there were serious problems with many of them.

How could there not be problems when you have dust and water..

[Guest guest]

Re: The a/c industry and their lies: I stayed in two different mid

priced, otherwise very clean hotels while needing to be away from own

house, which both turned out to have an a/c machine which drained water

right on to the INSIDE floor of room. If I hadn't stayed there so

long, I might not have noticed. I couldn't believe it. The first one

I discovered by noticing wettness near the window, said something and

hotel maintainence came and jerry-rigged a stand of sorts for under the

a/c that would tilt it outdoors. This was after the hotel host took me

from room to room looking for a room to move to and I found ALL

room 'dampish' near the window a/c unit. The next time and last time I

stayed in hotel for few weeks, I was sitting at a desk near window

doing some work and all of a sudden heard this water trickle. Looked

down only to see a STREAM coming out of bottom of window a/c again on

to carpet floor AGAIN, so this can't be unusual. It can't be that I

stayed at the only two places in town that had this problem. I ran to

get a cup and I filled it up 6 TIMES before maintenance got there and

helped out. THEN, the trouble I have had just TALKING to HVAC people

at my home. They just blow the whole thing off. After installing new

furnace I wanted them to open up AC box to make sure pan looked level

and they wouldn't do it because they said it was unnecessary. Well, I

was just afraid to not have it PERFECT, since the a/c equipment has

some very REAL design flaws to put it mildly. I said I wouldn't pay

until I was sure the a/c was installed properly and to me I needed to

see pan was level. A 'settling of the house' which caused former

furnace to slightly slop caused pan to overflow and grow mold and why I

had to replace it. Also, my old furnace had an easy-access panel to

a/c coils so I could check to see if it needed cleaning, etc; and new

one doesn't have access customer easy access panel, but I have to get

special type of screwdrivers out and remove 6 6-sided hex-screws to get

it off, so THEY ARE GOING BACKWARDS!!! Perhaps because their equipment

is so poor they don't want their customers to see the crud in them...I

think SO!!!! Puts you in an antagonistic position with everyone. Today

when guy was here doing some other HVAC work and balked at idea of

opening up a/c access panel for me to look in (fact that he balked at

it, shows how CONVENIENT it is to look into), I said " so you'd rather

argue with me than open it up for me? " and he opened it up and showed

me how to do it myself. I was concerned about some caulking around a

part of it which he trimmed back, but this is the result of the

irresponsibility of the HVAC industry.

>

> Re: sue the a/c industry.

I have been thinking the exact same thing for the past few years.

[Guest guest]

Yes, the guy that was here today, after saying the UV light was more

important than keeping coils clean and pan drained properly, when I

said it didn't save my last unit, said " well you have to replace the

bulb periodically " , but that is no substitute for having clean coils

and pan dry. The bulbs are very expensive and I don't think worth it.

All my HVAC registers in house are like 'nightlights', glow w blue

light! I think that is best use for them really.

--- In , Jyl Burgener <jburgener33@...>

wrote:

>

> Only the UVC wavelength is germicidal and this needs to be in close

contact to the microorganism(s) to kill them.  The bulbs have only a

certain life

[Guest guest]

Oh.. a post script to my own post about a/c. The guy who was here

today that said I shouldn't worry about damp smell and that dirt and

water in a/c is okay, constantly coughed, a hacking cough. Since I

don't cough here I doubt it is my house but probably the health of

someone who thinks a dirty, wet a/c machine is just FINE isn't too

good. Just wait til he gets a few more years of breathing of breathing

wet, dirty a/c units.

>

There is a guy here now said " moisture mixes with

> dust and dirt that are always in there and that creates a dampish

> smell, but I shouldn't be worry about that " .

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the links Branislav. It just occured to me that I could

take my steam cleaner that recommends (I bought a used one) and

go in to a/c compartment at the beginning and end of a/c season and

steam the compartment out, now that I can get in to it. HVAC person

that was here today trimmed some caulk away so panel would open

properly...but not until after I got angry over it though!

It still have to remove six hex screws to get in there, and a

termpermental door that doesn't quit want to go back into space, but

it's doable with some motivation. It isn't isn't as convenient as my

old furnace that had a panel without any screws. I just lifted it up

and looked. Took a second only. It was a wonderful on Five-in-

One unit that was about 45 years old and ran and ran and ran. If house

foundation hadn't settled and shifted pan slightly away from drain pan

opening, it would still be going. A/C pan never held any water! They

don't make units like that anymore. Someone in the business said he

felt the on company probably went out of business because their

equipment was too good. Sad but perhaps true. Oh well, missing my old

furnace and a/c and old aprilaire that never got moldy either even

though I didn't know it was in there (inside unit, 5-in-1) for first

five years after I moved here.

>

> http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/patients/New/sbarticle.php>

>

> There are some guidelines on how to properly clean AC units towards

> the end of the text... although it's written in very general terms.

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Yes the homeowner UV light is a scam, some even produce ozone.

Professional commercial installations of UV are another matter, so

long as they use high watt lamps and several so that the entire coil

is irradiated. (Of course, this will not affect the growth in fibrous

lining!)

I am giving a talk at the Indoor Air Quality Association annual

meeting in Fort Worth in February, appropriately titled " Cool Air and

Indoor Fresh [hrV] Air are Killing Us: Who is negligent? "

The ONLY way to keep the coil clean is with a MERV-8 (or better yet,

MERV-11)media filter.

What amazing misinformation you have received. Cleaning the outdoor

coil will improve efficiency a bit but has nothing to do with IAQ.

Try to get that access panel to see the return side of the coil.

Just remember, A/C coils are supposed to smell, just like fresh fish is!

Jeff

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

Tyngsborough, MA

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

978-649-1055

Posted by: " barb1283 " barb1283@... barb1283 Wed Jan 21, 2009

> 4:31 pm (PST) Yes, the guy that was here today, after saying the UV

> light was more important than keeping coils clean and pan drained

> properly

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jeff. I wish I could hear your talk. Anyway, what is wrong

with HRV? Same thing, inadequate filtration in them?

>

>I am giving a talk at the Indoor Air Quality Association annual

> meeting in Fort Worth in February, appropriately titled " Cool Air and

> Indoor Fresh [hrV] Air are Killing Us: Who is negligent? "

[Guest guest]

Maybe useful for the DIYer that we all have to be.

Air Conditioning Contractors Assoc guide to maintenance:

http://www.bookmarki.com/Maintenance-for-Residential-HVAC-Systems-

p/5974.htm

[Guest guest]

Yes Barb, inadequate filtration.

In my opinion, all HRVs need supplemental filtration (minimum MERV 8)

at the fresh air intake and at the house air intake. Almost every HRV

that I have inspected was full of mold due to poor filtration and

moisture build up.

Since the blowers are weak, you have to use a filter with no more than

about .1 inches of static pressure, so the typical 20 " x20 " one-inch

pleated filter is probably too restrictive.

(For comparison, an Aprilaire MERV-11 media filter, which is about 5

inches deep and about 25 " x25 " ) has a static pressure of .05 inches;

one brand of one-inch media filter has a static pressure of .25 inches!)

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

Tyngsborough, MA

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

978-649-1055

Posted by: " barb1283 " barb1283@... barb1283

Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:45 pm (PST)

Thanks Jeff. I wish I could hear your talk. Anyway, what is wrong

with HRV? Same thing, inadequate filtration in them?

[Guest guest]

Jeff, where can you buy this kind of filter and the boxes

to hold them as economically as possible?

Why do you need a filter on the exhaust? is it simply to balance the airflow?

(My HRV actually has two returns.. one is rarely used..)

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:31 PM, May <jeff@...> wrote:

> Yes Barb, inadequate filtration.

>

> In my opinion, all HRVs need supplemental filtration (minimum MERV 8)

> at the fresh air intake and at the house air intake. Almost every HRV

> that I have inspected was full of mold due to poor filtration and

> moisture build up.

[Guest guest]

Live,

You don't need a filter on the exhaust.

You need one in-line filter on the house air intake (not exhaust) for

the HRV and one on the fresh (outdoor air)intake for the HRV. You

would have to buy at least a 2-inch media filter and fabricate an

inline holder either with conical walls or rectangular shape (like a

large section of duct) that terminate in 5 or 6 inch fittings

(depending on the duct size.

You could buy an Aprilaire filter and holder (used to be about $130)

and install it in a sheet-metal " box " (duct) with openings and

fittings at either end to attach to the ducts.

The idea of using a large opening around the filter is to use all the

area and not restrict the flow. If you just stick a filter in-line,

only a small amount of the filter area is used and there will be more

static pressure.

May

May Indoor Air Investigations

> > Yes Barb, inadequate filtration.

> >

> > In my opinion, all HRVs need supplemental filtration (minimum

MERV 8)

> > at the fresh air intake and at the house air intake. Almost every

HRV

> > that I have inspected was full of mold due to poor filtration and

> > moisture build up.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks! See my other message.. yes, I figured this out and that is

similar to what I have, except that I have sheets of thin foam that

are really semi inadequate for the task.. (because they dont add much

pressure..)

But they do keep the larger air particles out of the ducts.. I'm

fairly lucky in that all my ducts are curcular and accessible, and I

have a HEPA vacuum cleaner with a long hose and circular brushes that

allow me to clean everything fairly well.. the brush is sjust slightly

larger than the ducts and can be pushed through very easily..

But I have been meaning to do it right.. I really need to get this set

up before the warm weather comes again because I seem to get fairly

sick each fall.. nomatter what I do.

On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 11:01 PM, jmhiaq <jeff@...> wrote:

> Live,

>

> You don't need a filter on the exhaust.

>

> You need one in-line filter on the house air intake (not exhaust) for

> the HRV and one on the fresh (outdoor air)intake for the HRV.