Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Diane: mycotoxins are secondary chemicals produced by mold spores. Think of these chemicals as different types of weaponry that microbes use to wage war with each other. " Humans, " as Harriet Ammann, PhD., has so aptly addressed it in the past, simply " get caught in the crossfire. " Mold spores are simply the machinery, such as tanks are in battle, carrying the firepower. In this case, the firepower is the chemicals (mycotoxins) that excrete out from the mold spores that carry them to their target. Everything or every " end result " is based upon chemistry of some sort-- hence, foods, medicines, drinks, cells, body fluids, etc. Hope that helps in your understanding of the microorganic world. This is how live-celled molds, bacteria, and other microbes do business, just as we do as humans in protecting our own survival against all enemies. We're just a bigger bunch and more complicated assortment of live-celled microbes comprised in what appears to each of us as a human body. Not everything observed is what it appears to be. Surprise. Have a Blessed day. Doug Haney _Haney52@... From: dianebolton@...: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:01:44 +0000Subject: [] The mold video I watched the video on mold that was posted here and I have a question about something that has always confused me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Diane Yes its true, spores do come off the original mold source and travel through the air and get on everything including inside your body. If its toxic mold the spores will have toxic chemicals in them and they also produce toxic chemicals like a little factory. These chemicals help the mold stay alive in extreme conditions, almost like a defense mechanism, its these chemicals that cause the adverse(not strong enough word) effects in our bodies. And some people can smell the dingy moldy buildings on entering. I watched the video on mold that was posted here and I have a question about something that has always confused me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Diane, Doug, as usual, gave an excellent response about mycotoxins. My intent is to talk about chemicals in general, and how they relate to particles. It starts simple and then gets complex. Ignore that part and plug away until it gets simple again. For awhile. In other words, if you are in the mood for a verbal adventure, read on. If not, find something more fun to do. Start with particles, like a grain of sand or a piece of dirt. Break it into tiny pieces and they are still a particle. Break it even more so you can't see it anymore. It is still there. It's just spead around in millions of super-tiny pieces too small to see rather than in a single clump or one grain which is visible. Particles this tiny are easily airborne. Sometimes you can see them floating in the air when a beam of sunlight streaks through a room. They range in size from about 10 microns to over 100 microns (diameter of human hair). The biggest tend to settle quickly on surfaces and we call it " house dust. " House dust, when analyzed by dust characterization techniques, is actually made up of dozens if not hundreds of different " stuff. " (One result I got back today from a fire had 18 different components plus another one called " miscellaneous. " ) The smaller " stuff " can stay suspended for hours; or forever if the air is disturbed (which it usually is). Yet these are still not the smallest or the greatest in numbers. Various estimates are that the smallest particles you can see in the air (bigger than about 10 microns) are still less than 2-3% of all particles in the air. Most allergens are 1-10 microns and are still less than an estimated 5% of all particles. Here's what's interesting about mold spores (1-10 microns). Even in heavy contamination, mold spores are rarely greater than 2-3% of all particles in the air. This is one reason why counting spores under a microscope can be so difficult. Finding individual spores can be like looking for grains of sand under a pile of rocks. Even the tiny particles at 0.3 microns are a 100 times smaller than the 30 micron particles barely visible dust particles floating in the air. But chemicals, at least in a vapor or " odor " and not a liquid, are even smaller. We should actually call them molecules. Molecules are 100 to 1000 times smaller than the 0.3 micron particles removed by a HEPA filter. Which is why HEPA doesn't remove airborne chemicals. The molecules are so small they easily flow through the pores like dust through a screen door or water through a leaky roof. In the lab sample I mentioned above, the locations where there was no soot visible under the microscope still smelled like a fire. In other words, the fire residue particles were gone but the fire residue molecules weren't. Molecules are the simplest combination of atoms which can be identified as a specific substances. For example, a molecule of water is H2O. A huge jug of water is still H2O, just enough of them to be a liquid. Formaldehyde is still simple as H2O2. Oxygen is O2 and ozone is O3. Then there are really complex long chains of molecules with names we can't pronounce and whose structure is more easily drawn as a diagram than written as words. (With the exception of cleaning products and personal care products. Grab a can or bottle and try to read the ingrediants). At this point, it can be difficult to tell the difference, by size alone, between an extremely large molecule and an extremely small particle. So other characteristics of each are used (for another time). Now to mold spores. A spore is a complex particle (1-10 microns) made up of other components. Some are " particles " but most we would consider molecules (over simplification). They all have names according to size and what they do. Think about how Eskimos supposedly have 40 names for snow. Well, there are even more names for small, smaller and smallest, with the smallest particles approaching the size of molecules. And the molecules have " 40 names " as well. If a spore (particle) dries out and is fragmented, it makes lots and lots of smaller particles of the spore, each of which is made up of even smaller combinations of particles and molecules. You can smell many of them, whether it is technically a particle or a molecule; or a particle off-gassing molecules. Which gets us into another topic for a later time. So, Diane, although your question reveals our lack of knowledge about a very complex subject, it also reveals that even the best experts have a similar lack of knowledge. Just at a different level. And they will argue with each other (and me) for hours, if not days, about whether I accurately differentiated between a drop, a droplet, a fog, a vapor, a fume, a molecule or a protein or an enzyme or a mycotoxin - or some other archane but important way of describing " stuff. " We are back to your question of are you smelling a particle or a chemical? In my opinion, operating at the level of what is making us sick, I don't care as long as I can stop it or get away from it. But even then, I may need to know whether it is " more like " a chemical or " more like " a particle so I know whether to get a HEPA filter or a charcoal filter. Or both. Or neither. Or how to remove the source, instead. Open the windows or close them. What happens is even the simplest " stuff " gets combined with other simple " stuff " until complexity occurs. So we strive mightily to make that complexity simple again. Sometimes successfully and sometimes not. In our situation it isn't just an intellectual exercise at stake. It is our health and well-being. Which is AGGRAVATING at best! Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > > Diane: mycotoxins are secondary chemicals produced by mold spores. Think of these chemicals as different > types of weaponry that microbes use to wage war with each other. " Humans, " as Harriet Ammann, PhD., has > so aptly addressed it in the past, simply " get caught in the crossfire. " Mold spores are simply the machinery, > such as tanks are in battle, carrying the firepower. In this case, the firepower is the chemicals (mycotoxins) > that excrete out from the mold spores that carry them to their target. Everything or every " end result " is > based upon chemistry of some sort-- hence, foods, medicines, drinks, cells, body fluids, etc. > > Hope that helps in your understanding of the microorganic world. This is how live-celled molds, bacteria, > and other microbes do business, just as we do as humans in protecting our own survival against all enemies. > We're just a bigger bunch and more complicated assortment of live-celled microbes comprised in what > appears to each of us as a human body. Not everything observed is what it appears to be. Surprise. Have a > Blessed day. > > Doug Haney > _Haney52@... > > From: dianebolton@...: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:01:44 +0000Subject: [] The mold > video > > I watched the video on mold that was posted here and I have a question about something that has always > confused me. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 -Thank you Doug. Is it possible to smell the mycotoxins? I smell a bitter smell around things from my home, not a musty smell like you would expect mold would smell like. Is it humanly possible to smell the chemical that mycotoxins create? Thanks Diane -- In , Haney <_Haney52@...> wrote: > > Diane: mycotoxins are secondary chemicals produced by mold spores. Think of these chemicals as different types of weaponry that microbes use to wage war with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Diane: Go into almost any basement in the Midwest, and I promise you that you can smell the mycotoxins doing their natural work. You might not even see any mold, if you are lucky. And yet, I would advise you or anyone not to go down into the basement and smell anything. External molds and myctoxins once in the human body, in a susceptible person (and all of us are susceptible to a degree-- that is what separates the marginally ill from the severely ill), and upsets the natural homeostasis regulation, sometimes life-term. Have a Blessed day. Doug Haney @...: dianebolton@...: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:04:41 +0000Subject: [] Re: The mold video -Thank you Doug. Is it possible to smell the mycotoxins? I smell a bitter smell around things from my home, not a musty smell like you would expect mold would smell like. Is it humanly possible to smell the chemical that mycotoxins create? Thanks Diane-- In , Haney <_Haney52@...> wrote:>> Diane: mycotoxins are secondary chemicals produced by mold spores. Think of these chemicals as different types of weaponry that microbes use to wage war with each other. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howitwor\ ks_012009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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