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Scientific Info on Essential Oils

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And it will injure those who are reactive to EO's!

[] Scientific info on Essential Oils

Barb, According to R. Close, PhD., PE, " Essential oils offer humanity a

powerful, all natural means of addressing the problem of toxic mold and mildew. "

Everyone should be examining essential oils as a means to help wipe out

disease-causing organisms.

Research on the anti-fungal properties of essential oils show:

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Any info about taking cinnamon capsules, which I have been taking for about a

year now, because they are suggested for blood sugar regulation. Are they

effective for clearing it from your system after an " exposure? " Thanks.

>

Read results of treatment with a therapeutic-grade essential oil blend compared

to bleach and conventional cleaners at:

http://hydrology.rice.edu/sspeed_2008/downloads/Day2/5A_Close.pdf

>

> For the scientific proof of efficacy go to:

http://www.moldRx4u.com/scientificdata.asp

>

>Faye

>

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Please remember that Essential Oils can be an allergen and toxic to those with

an intolerance for it. It's extremely potent. Do be careful. llaci

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95% are made with solvents that make them toxic. You need to find the other 5%

that aren't.

llaci2003 <llaci2003@...> wrote: Please

remember that Essential Oils can be an allergen and toxic to those with an

intolerance for it. It's extremely potent. Do be careful. llaci

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The original question is whether or not one can have an allergic reaction to an

essential oil.

We can state the following:

1) There are no allergies to essential oils.

2) Allergy-like reactions to pure, therapeutic grade essential oils are

actually detox reactions, which if handled with care and common sense, are

usually a good thing and may represent a healing process that leads to recovery

from many ills and a ticket to longer, healthier living.

In the book entitled, " The Chemistry of Essential Oils " Dr.

states, " Occasionally, a person receiving essential oils claims to have had an

allergic reaction to them. Such claims are based on the faulty understanding of

what constitutes an allergy. While some people react in an unpleasant manner to

the application of an essential oil, such a reaction is never allergenic.

Pure essential oils are free from allergens. With few exceptions, allergens are

proteins or polypeptides, both of which are composed of amino acids. All living

organisms are built from these substances. Thus, any life form could become an

allergic source for you - including your pet and/or your spouse. Essential

oils, however, contain no proteins, polypeptides, or amino acids and, thus,

contain no potential allergens. In fact, one can be allergic to a particular

plant but have no allergy to the essential oil distilled from the plant, since

it contains none of the plant protein. However, a fatty oil from the seeds of

the plant can be allergenic , since pressed vegetable oils contain traces of

protein and polypeptides.

Since essential oils can address issues at both emotional and cellular levels,

you can understand why many people testify that their allergies have disappeared

after they began using essential oils on a regular basis. Thus, rather than

essential oils being the cause of allergies, the truth is quite the opposite.

Pure essential oils can help to resolve allergic reactions.

There has never been a documented instance of an antigen-antibody (i.e.

sensitization) to an essential oil. Essential oil antibodies have never been

found or detected by anyone. Unless sensitization occurs and antibodies are

produced and stored in the body, there can be no allergenic reaction. This

point is proof that essential oils do not cause allergies.

This might not be true for perfume, massage, or food grade oils,, depending on

what synthetic substances and fatty oils are used to alter and dilute them.

However, even in cases of reactions to non-therapeutic grade oils, resultant

reactions are not likely to be allergies.

Therapeutic grade essential oils are detoxifying to the body, which is a good

thing. When the detoxification takes place at a greater rate than can be

eliminated by the kidneys, colon, and respiration, then allergy like symptoms

can occur. Here is where aromatherapists of the British school make their

mistake by interpreting allergy-like symptoms as allergies, when , in fact, they

are detox reactions.

When a detox reaction occurs, stop using the oils for awhile or reduce their

quantity in order to show down the release of toxins. Focus on cleansing

procedures and drink a lot of water, fiber, and fresh foods, and perhaps some

fasting , to flush out the toxins. Gradually, use the oils again and the toxins

will be gone and you won't have any unpleasant reactions to essential oils any

more.

As a practical tip, persons with acidic conditions are more prone to detox

reactions than those with an alkaline (healthy) body. " Taking a teaspoon of any

alkalizing product before and after a Raindrop session can prevent such

reactions, even in a toxic person. "

Faye

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K.C. and list members. please forgive me if I'm straying off topic here. But I

just wanted to raise a couple of points with a few caveats. I am no doctor. And

only can relate information that I've learned and have knowledge to verify or

deny much of anything other than personal experience and with my own health

issues may not explain things very well. So take what I have to say here with a

big dose of salt.

I have been tested as having an allergic reaction to some herbs among other

things. Cinnamon being one. Which really stinks as I love it. In addition to

rast and Ige testing I had a test for what are called " delayed allergies " . I'm

sure I won't describe it accurately. But it is a blood test that can detect

reactions that may not come up on a rast or skin test as some people can have a

response that occurs well after the time that the other two tests can be

determined-- hours or even days later. The test is supposed to be able to

determine the reaction on a cellular level. So, I'm not sure what this means in

terms of Faye's comment and really I mean no offense here at all. But I would be

real careful about making certain statements that no one can have an allergic

reaction to something. Especially when you are dealing with people on a list

like this. Unless there is significant documentation, we really ought to be more

careful with what we share with one

another. Peace.

The original question is whether or not one can have an allergic reaction to an

essential oil.

We can state the following:

1) There are no allergies to essential oils.

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I fully agree. Even if it is true that there can be no allergic

reactions to a particular substance, that doesn't mean there can't

be a non-allergic reaction. In fact, most reactivity is not allergic.

Allergic is specific: An IgE mediated response. Anything else is

non-allergic but is still a reaction.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> K.C. and list members. please forgive me if I'm straying off topic here. But I

just wanted to raise a couple of

> points with a few caveats. I am no doctor. And only can relate information

that I've learned and have

> knowledge to verify or deny much of anything other than personal experience

and with my own health issues

> may not explain things very well. So take what I have to say here with a big

dose of salt.

>

> I have been tested as having an allergic reaction to some herbs among other

things. Cinnamon being one.

> Which really stinks as I love it. In addition to rast and Ige testing I had a

test for what are called " delayed

> allergies " . I'm sure I won't describe it accurately. But it is a blood test

that can detect reactions that may not

> come up on a rast or skin test as some people can have a response that occurs

well after the time that the

> other two tests can be determined-- hours or even days later. The test is

supposed to be able to determine the

> reaction on a cellular level. So, I'm not sure what this means in terms of

Faye's comment and really I mean no

> offense here at all. But I would be real careful about making certain

statements that no one can have an

> allergic reaction to something. Especially when you are dealing with people on

a list like this. Unless there is

> significant documentation, we really ought to be more careful with what we

share with one

> another. Peace.

>

>

>

> The original question is whether or not one can have an allergic reaction to

an essential oil.

>

> We can state the following:

>

> 1) There are no allergies to essential oils.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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I believe it is true that allergic reactions are limited to protein substances

that the body reacts to them as if they are pathogens, since any protein

substance COULD be a pathogen. Whether it is possible to extract an oil from a

substance which is protein in it's structure without getting any protein in

extract would be difficult, and concerning especially since people with

allergies can react to miniscule amounts, but I'm not saying it cannot be done.

On the other subject, many people here react to substances, and their reaction

is not an allergic one, so must be careful about that. I don't believe it is

safe to assume a reaction which is distressing is a " good " thing or proof of

something good happening, although we know of the herxheimer reaction. Even

then it really isn't a 'good' thing. It is proof you liver is becoming

overwhelmed with toxins from a killing process so it is sign something is

working but that you need to stop, at least for awhile, and to detox without

that, in a gentler way, is much better. It is never good for any organ to

become toxic, even temporarily. Faye did say one should back off for awhile,

but it would be unsafe to assume reaction is sign of detoxing without proof from

a controlled scientific experiment from a neutral party. Certain fatty acids

have proven to be very beneficial so it may be an individual thing. Is tea tree

oil, an essential oil?

>

> I fully agree. Even if it is true that there can be no allergic

> reactions to a particular substance, that doesn't mean there can't

> be a non-allergic reaction. In fact, most reactivity is not allergic.

> Allergic is specific: An IgE mediated response. Anything else is

> non-allergic but is still a reaction.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

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Faye,

This sales pitch for essential oils is getting out of hand.

Some of the scientific evidence is nonsense.

Many essential oils are aldehydes, like cinnamaldehyde, the essential

odor component of cinnamon.

Aldehydes and other oils can cause true allergy reactions just the way

formaldehyde does, by reacting with body proteins and creating adduct

antigens towards which the body develops antibodies.

In addition, as has already been noted, anyone with MCS probably

cannot tolerate many essential oils.

There are far more effective antimicrobials that have no odor, are

less expensive and are perfectly safe.

Mold stinks. Why add more costly odor???

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

on Apr 6, 2009 2:30 pm (PDT)

>

> The original question is whether or not one can have an allergic

> reaction to an essential oil.

>

> We can state the following:

>

> 1) There are no allergies to essential oils.

>

> 2) Allergy-like reactions to pure, therapeutic grade essential oils

> are actually detox reactions, which if handled with care and common

> sense, are usually a good thing and may represent a healing process

> that leads to recovery from many ills and a ticket to longer,

> healthier living.

>

> In the book entitled, " The Chemistry of Essential Oils " Dr.

> states, " Occasionally, a person receiving essential oils

> claims to have had an allergic reaction to them. Such claims are

> based on the faulty understanding of what constitutes an allergy.

> While some people react in an unpleasant manner to the application of

> an essential oil, such a reaction is never allergenic.

>

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Well, I tell ya, as dty as my sinuses are, I welcome the ever rare running nose.

not when it comes with the severe migranes and brain swelling and raw sore

scalp, but the very rare times that i may actuaal have a allergic reaction to

something that i haven't figured out what it is. but I can tell you, I've had

some pretty bad reactions to anything with corn oil, and many things that I well

never know exactly what caused the reaction. anything fermented or provessed a

certain way, who knows and I dont have my degree in chemical science and all

that, but I really have gotten to the point, quite awhile back where theres just

not a whole lot of amything or any products that I want to try or risk trying.

when I have reactions, not anything good about them, to a open can of beer or

wine in my presence, or sucj a simple thing as ,y mom running her

diswasher and the smell bringing me to my knees after 4 years of not going there

to avoid either the woodstove or the dust, corn fields, ect. and them trying so

hard to make sure there was nothing that might cause me to react. bless their

harts, even lucked out cause it rained and settled the air but than that dang

dishwasher and it's dish soap wiped me out. always something. and really, how

can we ever say that what might mot effect one would not effect another.

>

> Faye,

>

> This sales pitch for essential oils is getting out of hand.

>

> Some of the scientific evidence is nonsense.

>

> Many essential oils are aldehydes, like cinnamaldehyde, the essential

> odor component of cinnamon.

>

> Aldehydes and other oils can cause true allergy reactions just the way

> formaldehyde does, by reacting with body proteins and creating adduct

> antigens towards which the body develops antibodies.

>

> In addition, as has already been noted, anyone with MCS probably

> cannot tolerate many essential oils.

>

> There are far more effective antimicrobials that have no odor, are

> less expensive and are perfectly safe.

>

> Mold stinks. Why add more costly odor???

>

> May

> May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

> www.mayindoorair.com

>

>

>

> on Apr 6, 2009 2:30 pm (PDT)

> >

> > The original question is whether or not one can have an allergic

> > reaction to an essential oil.

> >

> > We can state the following:

> >

> > 1) There are no allergies to essential oils.

> >

> > 2) Allergy-like reactions to pure, therapeutic grade essential oils

> > are actually detox reactions, which if handled with care and common

> > sense, are usually a good thing and may represent a healing process

> > that leads to recovery from many ills and a ticket to longer,

> > healthier living.

> >

> > In the book entitled, " The Chemistry of Essential Oils " Dr.

> > states, " Occasionally, a person receiving essential oils

> > claims to have had an allergic reaction to them. Such claims are

> > based on the faulty understanding of what constitutes an allergy.

> > While some people react in an unpleasant manner to the application of

> > an essential oil, such a reaction is never allergenic.

> >

>

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Thank you, Jeff. I have MCS and cannot tolerate any essential oils.

Saralee Rosen

homerose@...

_____

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of jeff@...

Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:41 PM

Subject: [] Re:Scientific Info on Essential Oils

Faye,

This sales pitch for essential oils is getting out of hand.

Some of the scientific evidence is nonsense.

Many essential oils are aldehydes, like cinnamaldehyde, the essential

odor component of cinnamon.

Aldehydes and other oils can cause true allergy reactions just the way

formaldehyde does, by reacting with body proteins and creating adduct

antigens towards which the body develops antibodies.

In addition, as has already been noted, anyone with MCS probably

cannot tolerate many essential oils.

There are far more effective antimicrobials that have no odor, are

less expensive and are perfectly safe.

Mold stinks. Why add more costly odor???

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

on Apr 6, 2009 2:30 pm (PDT)

>

> The original question is whether or not one can have an allergic

> reaction to an essential oil.

>

> We can state the following:

>

> 1) There are no allergies to essential oils.

>

> 2) Allergy-like reactions to pure, therapeutic grade essential oils

> are actually detox reactions, which if handled with care and common

> sense, are usually a good thing and may represent a healing process

> that leads to recovery from many ills and a ticket to longer,

> healthier living.

>

> In the book entitled, " The Chemistry of Essential Oils " Dr.

> states, " Occasionally, a person receiving essential oils

> claims to have had an allergic reaction to them. Such claims are

> based on the faulty understanding of what constitutes an allergy.

> While some people react in an unpleasant manner to the application of

> an essential oil, such a reaction is never allergenic.

>

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I am still not able to completely tolerate essential oils, when I would go

for a medical massage,even having them in the are( before I detoxed) would

make my *throat close up*. Now I can tolerate them as long as they are not

in the same room as me. I don't think this is neccessarily an " allergy " of

sorts,but I never tested positive for " mold allergies " either. I think it is

more a MCS reaction. Again take it for what it's worth,just my personal

experience.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Sam <yaddayadda53@...> wrote:

> K.C. and list members. please forgive me if I'm straying off topic here.

> But I just wanted to raise a couple of points with a few caveats. I am no

> doctor. And only can relate information that I've learned and have knowledge

> to verify or deny much of anything other than personal experience and with

> my own health issues may not explain things very well. So take what I have

> to say here with a big dose of salt.

>

> I have been tested as having an allergic reaction to some herbs among other

> things. Cinnamon being one. Which really stinks as I love it. In addition to

> rast and Ige testing I had a test for what are called " delayed allergies " .

> I'm sure I won't describe it accurately. But it is a blood test that can

> detect reactions that may not come up on a rast or skin test as some people

> can have a response that occurs well after the time that the other two tests

> can be determined-- hours or even days later. The test is supposed to be

> able to determine the reaction on a cellular level. So, I'm not sure what

> this means in terms of Faye's comment and really I mean no offense here at

> all. But I would be real careful about making certain statements that no one

> can have an allergic reaction to something. Especially when you are dealing

> with people on a list like this. Unless there is significant documentation,

> we really ought to be more careful with what we share with one

> another. Peace.

>

>

>

>

> The original question is whether or not one can have an allergic reaction

> to an essential oil.

>

> We can state the following:

>

> 1) There are no allergies to essential oils.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Jeff,

Thanks for clarifying what I was having trouble saying myself.

 

If it isn't too much trouble as I know you are very busy. I would be very

interested in what those other safe, odorless anti-mircobials are and how they

can be used. I'm wondering which of these are safe for simple use for lay people

on small issues and what would need to be used by remediators under expert

supervision.

If this have been posted already could you lead me in the right direction,

please. Feel free to post me directly as well.

Many thanks,

Sam

Some of the scientific evidence is nonsense.

Many essential oils are aldehydes, like cinnamaldehyde, the essential odor

component of cinnamon.

Aldehydes and other oils can cause true allergy reactions just the way

formaldehyde does, by reacting with body proteins and creating adduct antigens

towards which the body develops antibodies.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest guest

Sam,

You can use hydrogen peroxide: 3% is the medical solution you buy in the drug

store for cuts; I believe that the hair bleach is 10% peroxide; many remediators

are now using 17% peroxide to clean mold, though I don't know if this is

available to home owners.

40% peroxide is available from chemical supplies but this is dangerous; if you

get dirt in the container, it can explode!

You don't want to breathe in peroxide so although spray would be convenient, I

would just very lightly spray with some water with detergent to get the mold

barely damp so that spores will not get into the air, then wipe with peroxide

solution. Wear gloves and a mask.

Washing soda, available in supermarkets (for clothing), is sold as an expensive

solution (Concrobium) for treating mold and you can make your own 5-10% solution

from washing soda (sodium carbonate).

You can also buy solutions of quaternary ammonium compounds to treat mold. There

are various brands in Home Depot to clean decks, furniture, etc. These are

widely used compounds.

Forget about essential oils!!! The are expensive and they stink!

Also, there is nothing wrong with bleach, so long as the odor doesn't bother you

and you use it according to the directions.

May

Author, " Jeff May's Healthy Home Tips "

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

>

> Jeff,

>

> Thanks for clarifying what I was having trouble saying myself.

>

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But dosn't certain molds and bleach create another more toxic chemical thats

more lethal??

jmhiaq <jeff@...> wrote:

Sam,

You can use hydrogen peroxide: 3% is the medical solution you buy in the drug

store for cuts; I believe that the hair bleach is 10% peroxide; many remediators

are now using 17% peroxide to clean mold, though I don't know if this is

available to home owners.

40% peroxide is available from chemical supplies but this is dangerous; if you

get dirt in the container, it can explode!

You don't want to breathe in peroxide so although spray would be convenient, I

would just very lightly spray with some water with detergent to get the mold

barely damp so that spores will not get into the air, then wipe with peroxide

solution. Wear gloves and a mask.

Washing soda, available in supermarkets (for clothing), is sold as an expensive

solution (Concrobium) for treating mold and you can make your own 5-10% solution

from washing soda (sodium carbonate).

You can also buy solutions of quaternary ammonium compounds to treat mold.

There are various brands in Home Depot to clean decks, furniture, etc. These are

widely used compounds.

Forget about essential oils!!! The are expensive and they stink!

Also, there is nothing wrong with bleach, so long as the odor doesn't bother

you and you use it according to the directions.

May

Author, " Jeff May's Healthy Home Tips "

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

>

> Jeff,

>

> Thanks for clarifying what I was having trouble saying myself.

>

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Thanks Jeff! I've heard some conflicting reports about bleach not being a very

thorough means of remediation. Have you ever heard of that and if so, under what

circumstances would it work and when would it not.

Also, is h2o2 used by remediators as well? Would you say it works better than

bleach?

Do you recommend quaternary ammonium compounds as best for cleaning hard wood

furniture? Is there any problems with it off-gassing? What else would you

recommend? I'm especially concerned with the insides of the drawers or of the

dresser structures itself which tend to be more rough than the smooth outside.

Would any of these protocols do anything in terms of reducing the associated

odors that can come from mold/moisture/mycotoxins?

As a related aside, I didn't realize that sodium carbonate will get rid of mold.

I have only recently been informed of it as a means of building ph levels in

water. They call it a chemical wash. We have real low ph levels, about 4.9. Do

you or does anyone on the list know if it is a safe thing to use in drinking

water? Any thoughts on what kind of impact, if any there might be from drinking

water that has sodium carbonate in it?

Many thanks again,

Sam

You can use hydrogen peroxide: 3% is the medical solution you buy in the drug

store for cuts; I believe that the hair bleach is 10% peroxide; many remediators

are now using 17% peroxide to clean mold, though I don't know if this is

available to home owners.

40% peroxide is available from chemical supplies but this is dangerous; if you

get dirt in the container, it can explode!

You don't want to breathe in peroxide so although spray would be convenient, I

would just very lightly spray with some water with detergent to get the mold

barely damp so that spores will not get into the air, then wipe with peroxide

solution. Wear gloves and a mask.

Washing soda, available in supermarkets (for clothing), is sold as an expensive

solution (Concrobium) for treating mold and you can make your own 5-10% solution

from washing soda (sodium carbonate).

You can also buy solutions of quaternary ammonium compounds to treat mold. There

are various brands in Home Depot to clean decks, furniture, etc. These are

widely used compounds.

Also, there is nothing wrong with bleach, so long as the odor doesn't bother you

and you use it according to the directions.

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At 05:45 PM 4/17/2009, you wrote:

>Thanks Jeff! I've heard some conflicting reports about bleach not

>being a very thorough means of remediation. Have you ever heard of

>that and if so, under what circumstances would it work and when would it not.

Bleach is the old fashion way. Consumer Reports testing of chlorine

to vinegar found

that vinegar works better and faster on a wider variety of household germs.

Vinegar needs rinsing, while H2O2 does not.

>Also, is h2o2 used by remediators as well? Would you say it works

>better than bleach?

Bleaching needs rinsing, meaning more time on site for the pros,

meaning one less

job a day they can do, meaning their income gets cut in half. So,

they use H2O2

at a strength that nothing can survive (not household variety).

Vinegar is an acid. H2O2 is a base, the opposite of an acid.

Nothing is " immune " to how they damage the outer cell membrane

of germs. The germ dies. While chlorine... it's got a different killing

mechanism, and is not as effective. Chlorine needs water to be

activated (at least Clorox does), and needs 10 minutes of 'wet time'

to reach full effective level in killing.

Supermarket White Distilled Grain Vinegar at 5% strength is faster.

15% vinegar can be found at horse supply stores, but it might be

petrochemical based, not grain based, not food grade.

H2O2 at supermarket strength of 3% is good as well.

I can not recommend stronger than 3% for household use.

For cleaning mold dilute AT LEAST 1 to 9, for 0.3%.

I advise diluting to 1 to 99, or 0.03% for weekly cleaning.

For " strong " cleaning dilute 1 to 49, for 0.15% strength.

I can not recommend stronger. It can damage some substances,

like plastic, starting it to decay in the next 1 to 20 weeks.

The decay can not be stopped and outgassing can be bad.

>informed of it as a means of building ph levels in water. They call

>it a chemical wash. We have real low ph levels, about 4.9. Do you or

>does anyone on the list know if it is a safe thing to use in drinking water?

Food grade soda ash, from FMC, at 98.5% with no heavy metals is used in

a variety food and candy. It makes the fizz, the CO2, in those

surprise candies.

To use it bring up the pH level... I do not know. It is used to

raise the pH is

many industrial processes (see wikipedia.org).

>Any thoughts on what kind of impact, if any there might be from

>drinking water that has sodium carbonate in it?

Read the MSDS from FMC or any supplier you get it from.

ArmHammer.com has their MSDS online. I found it just yesterday.

Use Google, as it might not be linked from their front page.

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Guest guest

---

Dr. Croft says that the use of chlorine bleach will generate the production of

mycotoxins,it does not kill them. Dont use bleach, there are much better

choices. D

In , a Townsend <kmtown2003@...> wrote:

>

> But dosn't certain molds and bleach create another more toxic chemical thats

more lethal??

>

> jmhiaq <jeff@...> wrote:

>

> Sam,

>

> You can use hydrogen peroxide: 3% is the medical solution you buy in the drug

store for cuts; I believe that the hair bleach is 10% peroxide; many remediators

are now using 17% peroxide to clean mold, though I don't know if this is

available to home owners.

>

> 40% peroxide is available from chemical supplies but this is dangerous; if

you get dirt in the container, it can explode!

>

> You don't want to breathe in peroxide so although spray would be convenient,

I would just very lightly spray with some water with detergent to get the mold

barely damp so that spores will not get into the air, then wipe with peroxide

solution. Wear gloves and a mask.

>

> Washing soda, available in supermarkets (for clothing), is sold as an

expensive solution (Concrobium) for treating mold and you can make your own

5-10% solution from washing soda (sodium carbonate).

>

> You can also buy solutions of quaternary ammonium compounds to treat mold.

There are various brands in Home Depot to clean decks, furniture, etc. These are

widely used compounds.

>

> Forget about essential oils!!! The are expensive and they stink!

>

> Also, there is nothing wrong with bleach, so long as the odor doesn't bother

you and you use it according to the directions.

>

> May

> Author, " Jeff May's Healthy Home Tips "

> May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

> www.mayindoorair.com

>

>

> >

> > Jeff,

> >

> > Thanks for clarifying what I was having trouble saying myself.

> >

>

>

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