Re: Re:Scientific Info on Essential Oils - mold treatments

April 17, 2009

Jeff, good stuff. I can confirm everything he posted, having done

similar research myself.

Here is my current practice with tips.

At 05:09 PM 4/17/2009, you wrote:

>You can use hydrogen peroxide: 3% is the medical solution you buy in

>the drug store for cuts;

H2O2 is no longer recommended for cuts. It prevents proper clotting.

Try Australia Tea Tree Oil (strong smell) or Nutribiotic.com

Grapefruit Seed Extract

First Aid Spray, GSE is a natural antibiotic for itch and

healing. It's 3 times slower

than triple antibiotic cream, but it's water/alcohol based, not

petrochemical grease

or cream.

>I believe that the hair bleach is 10% peroxide;

Never use stronger than 3% on the skin. Even 3.1% will burn white

spots on your skin. I know

as I have mixed my own from food grade 35%. I thought what would

0.1% more do? It burns.

>many remediators are now using 17% peroxide

This will eat holes immediately in your skin and clothing. Wear

rubber everything,

and protect your face, and eyes, and NEVER inhale the fumes.

>to clean mold, though I don't know if this is available to home owners.

I research dilution levels of household use of H2O2 for mold on bare wood

and other surfaces, like concrete and non porous like sinks and countertops.

Dilute the supermarket 3% by 1 part H2O2 with 9 parts of water, for 0.3% for

VERY strong mold killing (first scrape or clean off with scrubbing and soap, or

washing soda, or borax, or real TSP (from hardware or paint store).

For weekly cleaning use 1 part H2O2 with 99 parts water, for 0.03% for

mopping floors.

Vinegar is another thing to use. It must be rinsed to avoid a smell.

Do not use chlorine on bare wood. It reacts and creates cancer causing

PCBs and dioxin.

H2O2 is a no rinse solution. It breaks down to ... water. Easy.

>40% peroxide is available from chemical supplies but this is

>dangerous; if you get dirt in the container, it can explode!

99% H2O2 is rocket fuel. Look up V2 from WWII.

Why do pros use such strong stuff? And does it really work?

First, they do not want to come back for a second visit.

Yes, it works, but if the mold grew into the substance, it

will come back. So, pros also will put a mild or medium

strength mold inhibitor on the surface. Borax is a mild

mold inhibitor. Others use a chemical toxic mix, which

I advise avoiding.

>with some water with detergent

2-3 drops of Dawn is what I would advise, per quart to gallon of water.

More is not better here. Otherwise, you have to rinse it off.

> to get the mold barely damp so that spores will not get into the air,

Ah, actually, most mold when sensing the present of liquid water,

which will drown them,

will release their spores, before the water fully encloses

them. It's a survival mechanism.

But if you need to remove mold colonies, then a little detergent is good.

It changes the wetting angle of the water, speeds up wetting things,

and spreading the water over the mold colony faster.

>then wipe with peroxide solution. Wear gloves and a mask.

When using 0.3 or 0.03, or even .003% H2O@, masks are not needed.

Gloves for 0.3% for long use is advised.

>Washing soda, available in supermarkets (for clothing),

Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda is $5 for 55 ounces, but it's not

available in Los Angeles.

It's now almost pure at 85% with 15% water, but I was not able to

find the list of other stuff in it.

They did have optical brighteners and scents, etc.

Or from from pool supply stores (look for " pH Plus " ), but it's more expensive.

I buy mine from WestCoChemicals.com for $80 for 50 pounds of 98.5% pure

with no heavy metals. It lasts a year for home mode laundry soap.

>from washing soda (sodium carbonate).

This is not baking soda, but more than twice as strong as baking soda, so

is about 5 times faster in what it does.

>Also, there is nothing wrong with bleach, so long as the odor

>doesn't bother you and you use it according to the directions.

Do not use bleach on bare wood, see above.

April 18, 2009

& Jeff,

Although I have some disagreements about " killing mold " and the

need for bleach, H2O2 or aniti-microbials, there is one thing I do

agree with you both - which is often missed in a routine reading.

Both of you describe the use of these chemicals AFTER removal

of the visible mold. Not *instead* of removal, like many who claim

to be professionals or those who market " miracle " products.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

>

> Jeff, good stuff. I can confirm everything he posted, having done

> similar research myself.

> Here is my current practice with tips.

>

> At 05:09 PM 4/17/2009, you wrote:

> >You can use hydrogen peroxide: 3% is the medical solution you buy in

> >the drug store for cuts;

>

> H2O2 is no longer recommended for cuts. It prevents proper clotting.

> Try Australia Tea Tree Oil (strong smell) or Nutribiotic.com

> Grapefruit Seed Extract

> First Aid Spray, GSE is a natural antibiotic for itch and

> healing. It's 3 times slower

> than triple antibiotic cream, but it's water/alcohol based, not

> petrochemical grease

> or cream.

>

> >I believe that the hair bleach is 10% peroxide;

>

> Never use stronger than 3% on the skin. Even 3.1% will burn white

> spots on your skin. I know

> as I have mixed my own from food grade 35%. I thought what would

> 0.1% more do? It burns.

>

> >many remediators are now using 17% peroxide

>

> This will eat holes immediately in your skin and clothing. Wear

> rubber everything,

> and protect your face, and eyes, and NEVER inhale the fumes.

>

> >to clean mold, though I don't know if this is available to home owners.

>

> I research dilution levels of household use of H2O2 for mold on bare wood

> and other surfaces, like concrete and non porous like sinks and countertops.

>

> Dilute the supermarket 3% by 1 part H2O2 with 9 parts of water, for 0.3% for

> VERY strong mold killing (first scrape or clean off with scrubbing and soap,

or

> washing soda, or borax, or real TSP (from hardware or paint store).

>

> For weekly cleaning use 1 part H2O2 with 99 parts water, for 0.03% for

> mopping floors.

>

> Vinegar is another thing to use. It must be rinsed to avoid a smell.

>

> Do not use chlorine on bare wood. It reacts and creates cancer causing

> PCBs and dioxin.

>

> H2O2 is a no rinse solution. It breaks down to ... water. Easy.

>

> >40% peroxide is available from chemical supplies but this is

> >dangerous; if you get dirt in the container, it can explode!

>

> 99% H2O2 is rocket fuel. Look up V2 from WWII.

>

> Why do pros use such strong stuff? And does it really work?

>

> First, they do not want to come back for a second visit.

> Yes, it works, but if the mold grew into the substance, it

> will come back. So, pros also will put a mild or medium

> strength mold inhibitor on the surface. Borax is a mild

> mold inhibitor. Others use a chemical toxic mix, which

> I advise avoiding.

>

> >with some water with detergent

>

> 2-3 drops of Dawn is what I would advise, per quart to gallon of water.

> More is not better here. Otherwise, you have to rinse it off.

>

> > to get the mold barely damp so that spores will not get into the air,

>

> Ah, actually, most mold when sensing the present of liquid water,

> which will drown them,

> will release their spores, before the water fully encloses

> them. It's a survival mechanism.

>

> But if you need to remove mold colonies, then a little detergent is good.

> It changes the wetting angle of the water, speeds up wetting things,

> and spreading the water over the mold colony faster.

>

> >then wipe with peroxide solution. Wear gloves and a mask.

>

> When using 0.3 or 0.03, or even .003% H2O@, masks are not needed.

> Gloves for 0.3% for long use is advised.

>

> >Washing soda, available in supermarkets (for clothing),

>

> Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda is $5 for 55 ounces, but it's not

> available in Los Angeles.

> It's now almost pure at 85% with 15% water, but I was not able to

> find the list of other stuff in it.

> They did have optical brighteners and scents, etc.

>

> Or from from pool supply stores (look for " pH Plus " ), but it's more expensive.

>

> I buy mine from WestCoChemicals.com for $80 for 50 pounds of 98.5% pure

> with no heavy metals. It lasts a year for home mode laundry soap.

>

> >from washing soda (sodium carbonate).

>

> This is not baking soda, but more than twice as strong as baking soda, so

> is about 5 times faster in what it does.

>

> >Also, there is nothing wrong with bleach, so long as the odor

> >doesn't bother you and you use it according to the directions.

>

> Do not use bleach on bare wood, see above.

>

April 18, 2009

Hi Carl,

You make a super good point that anyone reading this thread must

pay attention to. I expound upon the reasons for removal first below.

Also, a note about miracle products at the very bottom.

I do want to add that 17% the pros use is ONLY on bare wood, after

exposing the timbers inside the wall or ceiling or floor, but removing

the plaster or wood or wall paper. The 17% is not used on many

other surfaces, like possessions (damages most of them), plastic

which it mars the surface (can dissolves some plastics), and so

the 17% should only be done by someone who can read and follow

to the letter the instructions that come with it. I'm not saying 17%

can not be used on many things other than bare wood, as it can

be, but do it first on a small patch, that is out of sight, in case it

does damage it.

At 01:38 PM 4/18/2009, you wrote:

>Both of you describe the use of these chemicals AFTER removal

>of the visible mold. Not *instead* of removal, like many who claim

>to be professionals or those who market " miracle " products.

The job of eliminating mold, both short and long term, is take

away the 'mass' of the colony for several reasons.

1) The by products of the death of fungus contains all the nutrients

needed to start a new colony. Oh no!

So, removal means the clean up becomes a long term solution as well.

2) Treatment of just the " surface " of a colony may leave live cells

at the bottom.

Again, removal means a longer term solution.

3) Removal means exposing various other problems, like wood soft

or wet rot decay. Holes in the surface into which the mold has

grown into, and the hole needs to be cleaned out as well.

Ok, it's worth repeating, elimination of the bulk of fungus gives

a better chance at a long term solution.

--

When " opening " a wall or enclosed area containing mold colonies,

the slightest breeze will cause a blossom of released spores into

your face, your hair, your clothing. Symptoms can be immediate.

These spores can then be tracked throughout the home, via falling

out of hair or clothing. Painter overalls with long sleeves and full

hoods are available from most hardware stores for under $10 a pair.

In some cases, you can find them as low as one dollar a pair.

These are man made fabrics.

I'm looking for all cotton or paper coveralls with hood (or without),

which I understand are between 10 to 20 dollars.

--

Some miracle products are just tried and true old fashion remedies

at a non household, industrial strength combined with elbow grease,

very rigorous, sweating and sore muscle, scrubbing, so any mold

in the low spots or 'pores' of the surface is removed, ..., for a longer

term solution.

Some miracle products actually are the real mccoy. Of these some

are highly toxic to humans, others are toxic to just immune compromised,

young or elderly, while others are " safe enough. " There is no need to

experiment to find the one that works for you. Just go with what has

already been posted, imho.

Pete

April 18, 2009

Carl,

Is the use of h2o2 and the other mentioned solutions to insure that small or

unseen clusters of mold are removed as well? And in this sense are you also

saying that the aformentioned solutions really can't kill mold? Is peroxide

something that you can use only on certain surfaces?

Most of what I've heard written about on this list is that beyond removal of

visible mold is a process of wiping things down with or without detergent. What

I don't get is how you wipe or what you might wipe with in order not to spread

any possible spores around? Is the moisture and technique of wiping away done in

a certain way?

Thanks,

Sam

& Jeff,

Although I have some disagreements about " killing mold " and the

need for bleach, H2O2 or aniti-microbials, there is one thing I do

agree with you both - which is often missed in a routine reading.

April 18, 2009

Sam,

Your question gets to the heart of how mold remediation is

essentially very simple to understand but difficult to execute

effectively and safely.

If the focus is on the water or moisture which caused the mold

growth, then those observations will determine what needs to be

removed or cleaned, not just where mold colonies are visible to

the naked eye. Not all colonies are big enough to see.

Understanding the surface characteristics of porous, non-porous

and semi-porous materials is also a part of the puzzle. Which

gets to your question about how are surfaces wiped. Some can

be easily but some are very difficult or impossible.

The construction of the building and the materials used also have

to be considered. For example, mold growing on a painted wall

because of condensation can usually be " simply " wiped. But if the

moisture is not from condensation on the surface, but from

moisture inside the wall which flowed down from five floors above

and also got the ceilings and floors wet and moldy, then you have

a whole matrix of complex issues.

As for how to remove surface mold growth without spreading the

spores around, there are two parts to the process. The ANSI-

IICRC S520 " Standard and Reference Guide for Professional

Mold Remediation " describes a proces of HEPA vacuuming a

surface to remove the loose, easily disturbed spores and

fragments. Then wiped with a cloth dampened with water and a

little detergent. This is to remove the more stubborn material from

the surface which can't be removed as easily as a layer of dust.

Then HEPA vacuumed again to remove the inevitable layer left

by the damp wiping.

There are areas where the sheetrock is fastened to studs, the

studs to the upper and lower supports, and other other complex

structures that must be dried but can't be cleaned.

Most of us who have had long-term exposures and been severely

impacted experienced this sort of complexity.

The second part of the process is to contain the work area and

control the direction of the air flow so the disturbed spores and

fragments (it can't be totally prevented) don't spread throughout

the house, but stay in the work area. Some of this is as simple as

a " localized " containment or as complex as multiple containment

areas with differing air pressures. Sometimes the pressure

differences need to be switched as the work progresses.

The NYC Guidelines recognizes some of this (sort of) with their

guidance based on when mold can be cleaned by routine

maintenance and when professionals should be involved.

To summarize, many of the small areas with known moisture

sources on simple surfaces can be remediated by nearly

everyone. Even if they are fairly reactive. Others are the extreme

opposite and are difficult for even professionals.

This is why there are no " magic bullets " and why each situation is

different.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

Carl,

Is the use of h2o2 and the other mentioned solutions to insure that small

or unseen clusters of mold are removed as well? And in this sense are

you also saying that the aformentioned solutions really can't kill mold? Is

peroxide something that you can use only on certain surfaces?

Most of what I've heard written about on this list is that beyond removal

of visible mold is a process of wiping things down with or without

detergent. What I don't get is how you wipe or what you might wipe with

in order not to spread any possible spores around? Is the moisture and

technique of wiping away done in a certain way?

Thanks,

Sam

& Jeff,

Although I have some disagreements about " killing mold " and the

need for bleach, H2O2 or aniti-microbials, there is one thing I do

agree with you both - which is often missed in a routine reading.

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April 18, 2009

Excellent narrative, Pete. May I include some of your

descriptions in my work? (attributed to you, of course). It is simple

and in a language most people can understand, yet accurate.