OT question

[Guest guest]

Jeanine,

They probably set off a mixture of potassium chlorate and sugar.

The white smoke is (probably) mostly potassium chloride, a relatively harmless

chemical used as a salt substitute for sodium chloride.

There might have been some soot produced as well.

Someone may have put some silver nitrate into the mix (I can't imagine why) but

silver ions when in contact do turn the skin black.

The smoke from " burning " sugar this way (potassium chlorate is a source of

" oxygen " for burning the sugar) would be relatively harmless compared to the

smoke from most fireworks that contain other metals and sulfur.

May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

>

> what would be in the smoke of clorine and sugar mixed together and

> lighted on fire that would cause a bunch of school kids to develope little

black spots under the skin, mostly on hands and arms?

> and what might this be?

>

> the school is only ashureing everyone that it's not contaigous.

> dih!

> i thought of tiny vessel vasculitis, the ones in the top ;ayes of skin.

> they are very tiny, would that make them appear black instead of red?

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jeff, it did make a bunch of sparks first.

> >

> > what would be in the smoke of clorine and sugar mixed together and

> > lighted on fire that would cause a bunch of school kids to develope little

black spots under the skin, mostly on hands and arms?

> > and what might this be?

> >

> > the school is only ashureing everyone that it's not contaigous.

> > dih!

> > i thought of tiny vessel vasculitis, the ones in the top ;ayes of skin.

> > they are very tiny, would that make them appear black instead of red?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Get pictures, and email them to Jeff and me, as we both know what

silver nitrate skin stains look like. Use a super macro lens if possible

and get within 1 inch. The picture must be unblurred. A macro picture

is also possible. The resulting picture would be about 10 megabytes,

or 1 megabyte, larger is better resolution, and easier to make a judgement

call if it is silver nitrate. Then the question becomes where did the silver

come from? The container? A third chemical?

I've been involved in college chem lab accidents, well I was in the

lab at the far end of the room, my freshman year, and there was a

second accident in the other chem lab class. Both cases had 18 year

olds signing their rights away to not sue. However, the chemicals involved

and dangers were well known to all parties due to professor lectures.

One was a physical explosion of hot glass under cold water.

The Teaching Assistant caused the accident, and had glass in his

arm. The other was rubber tubing catching on fire under a hood,

and no one got hurt.

More below. Good luck.

At 05:10 AM 5/2/2009, you wrote:

>They probably set off a mixture of potassium chlorate and sugar.

You'd have to get the exact chemicals used, and the amount of each,

either by weight or volume, and if it was liquid or powder, or crystals,

to be sure of what was in the resulting combustion by-products. That

leads to knowing what would cause this symptom.

>Someone may have put some silver nitrate into the mix (I can't

>imagine why) but silver ions when in contact do turn the skin black.

That was my first thought as well. You need to find out what the surface

of the container was. If it was silver plated, then this could be

it. However,

their face would have been equally effected as their hands and arms. Any

exposed skin would have black dots. Silver nitrate stained skin is harmless

and goes away in 3 months, never less. It will not scrub off, as it

is literally

in the skin, and must grow off with the skin as it dies and flakes off. I got

stained in freshman chem lab.

If it was some other inhaled substance causing black dots, then that is of

great concern, but why just effect their hands and arms?

If it were my child, then I would insist that all children have

evidential pictures

taken, for correlation and cause determination. Nothing else will suffice, as

the dots will disappear with time, and only with a picture record can adequate

medical treatment be provided, if it turns out to be serious, but

only discovered

several weeks after the initial dots have changed shape, color, etc.

There are many questions, the pattern, is it raised, the shape, is it circular,

all give clues as to the process of how they got there, internal inhalation or

external skin exposure.

The college will be VERY FRIGHTENED and want the questions answered as

well, while the child's school principal will be very stonewall, not

wanting any

answers, and to sweep it under the rug. Why? The smaller school has no

funding for problems, while the college has money, and will want to defend

itself. It's highly likely the college will contact each exposed

child's parents

for a signature. I'd withhold this signature pending additional health related

information, and I would personally interview the involved college parties

for determination of chemicals and container used, as well inspecting the

source containers, and getting samples from them, and contacting the

chemical firm supplier and getting manufacturing lot information, looking

for possible sources of contamination, someone putting a silver chemical

into a source container could account for the black dots. Thus, a sample

is key. I'd go the extra step and get fingerprints of the college parties,

and compare to the fingerprints on the containers, to be sure the containers

had not been switched, and to confirm the identity of the parties with the

police, in case one is already known to the police, perhaps in another

state. I'd raise a ruckus in other words, very quietly, by providing the

college with a list of demands and answers to be used to assure the

health of the children and what treatment is immediately called or

might be called for later, that is delay onset of symptoms and side

effects to look for. Nothing else would satisfy me. I'd have an emergency

junction form ready to file with the court for the judge to issue an immediate

order for cooperation to meet the demands and answers, otherwise it's

contempt of court and immediately to jail. Do not pass Go. That

would get the college to participate.

Well, being just the grandparent... you have very little grounds for

pursuing any of this. However, print out this email, and show it to

your children, the parents of the harmed child, and let them make

an informed decision on how to best protect their child's health

from delayed symptoms, when the initial easily observed symptoms

have gone away, as well as the source containers disposed of, and

the container tossed as well.

>The smoke from " burning " sugar this way (potassium chlorate is a

>source of " oxygen " for burning the sugar) would be relatively

>harmless compared to the smoke from most fireworks that contain

>other metals and sulfur.

I'd agree with this, but for one thing, the black dots indicate some

other element

was involved other than the two claimed. Finding out where it came from would

be key, in my mind. I've listed several sources above. Good

luck. Let us know

what it was, as the chemists, like Jeff and me, are intrigued, and

want to know.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Thank you Pete. the mother went to the school and as you said, they played it

down. I told her I would see if I could find out anything.

several parents are upset. I well print this out and give to my daughter and

maybe she can get with other parents and see what they can find out. I know the

health dept was called in but things have been kept very quit sence. I well see

if we can get some good pictures to send, my grandsons only had a few black

spots, they are not bumps, they are under the skin, some children had alot of

them.

thanks again to both of you for answering my post on this.

> >They probably set off a mixture of potassium chlorate and sugar.

>

> You'd have to get the exact chemicals used, and the amount of each,

> either by weight or volume, and if it was liquid or powder, or crystals,

> to be sure of what was in the resulting combustion by-products. That

> leads to knowing what would cause this symptom.

>

> >Someone may have put some silver nitrate into the mix (I can't

> >imagine why) but silver ions when in contact do turn the skin black.

>

> That was my first thought as well. You need to find out what the surface

> of the container was. If it was silver plated, then this could be

> it. However,

> their face would have been equally effected as their hands and arms. Any

> exposed skin would have black dots. Silver nitrate stained skin is harmless

> and goes away in 3 months, never less. It will not scrub off, as it

> is literally

> in the skin, and must grow off with the skin as it dies and flakes off. I got

> stained in freshman chem lab.

>

> If it was some other inhaled substance causing black dots, then that is of

> great concern, but why just effect their hands and arms?

>

> If it were my child, then I would insist that all children have

> evidential pictures

> taken, for correlation and cause determination. Nothing else will suffice, as

> the dots will disappear with time, and only with a picture record can adequate

> medical treatment be provided, if it turns out to be serious, but

> only discovered

> several weeks after the initial dots have changed shape, color, etc.

>

> There are many questions, the pattern, is it raised, the shape, is it

circular,

> all give clues as to the process of how they got there, internal inhalation or

> external skin exposure.

>

> The college will be VERY FRIGHTENED and want the questions answered as

> well, while the child's school principal will be very stonewall, not

> wanting any

> answers, and to sweep it under the rug. Why? The smaller school has no

> funding for problems, while the college has money, and will want to defend

> itself. It's highly likely the college will contact each exposed

> child's parents

> for a signature. I'd withhold this signature pending additional health

related

> information, and I would personally interview the involved college parties

> for determination of chemicals and container used, as well inspecting the

> source containers, and getting samples from them, and contacting the

> chemical firm supplier and getting manufacturing lot information, looking

> for possible sources of contamination, someone putting a silver chemical

> into a source container could account for the black dots. Thus, a sample

> is key. I'd go the extra step and get fingerprints of the college parties,

> and compare to the fingerprints on the containers, to be sure the containers

> had not been switched, and to confirm the identity of the parties with the

> police, in case one is already known to the police, perhaps in another

> state. I'd raise a ruckus in other words, very quietly, by providing the

> college with a list of demands and answers to be used to assure the

> health of the children and what treatment is immediately called or

> might be called for later, that is delay onset of symptoms and side

> effects to look for. Nothing else would satisfy me. I'd have an emergency

> junction form ready to file with the court for the judge to issue an immediate

> order for cooperation to meet the demands and answers, otherwise it's

> contempt of court and immediately to jail. Do not pass Go. That

> would get the college to participate.

>

> Well, being just the grandparent... you have very little grounds for

> pursuing any of this. However, print out this email, and show it to

> your children, the parents of the harmed child, and let them make

> an informed decision on how to best protect their child's health

> from delayed symptoms, when the initial easily observed symptoms

> have gone away, as well as the source containers disposed of, and

> the container tossed as well.

>

> >The smoke from " burning " sugar this way (potassium chlorate is a

> >source of " oxygen " for burning the sugar) would be relatively

> >harmless compared to the smoke from most fireworks that contain

> >other metals and sulfur.

>

> I'd agree with this, but for one thing, the black dots indicate some

> other element

> was involved other than the two claimed. Finding out where it came from would

> be key, in my mind. I've listed several sources above. Good

> luck. Let us know

> what it was, as the chemists, like Jeff and me, are intrigued, and

> want to know.

>

>

>

>

>

> Pete

>

[Guest guest]

For some good information go to _www.biotoxin.info_

(http://www.biotoxin.info) and _www.schoolmoldhelp.org_

(http://www.schoolmoldhelp.org) .

Excellent help here with this group but you can check out the others for more

info.

I'm a former teacher and know all too well how they will play it down, and

if the health dept. does anything I would be very surprised!

>Thank you Pete. the mother went to the school and as you said, they

>played it down. I told her I would see if I could find out anything.

>several parents are upset. I well print this out and give to my

>daughter and maybe she can get with other parents and see what they

>can find out. I know the health dept was called in but things have

>been kept very quit sence.

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[Guest guest]

At 12:35 AM 5/3/2009, you wrote:

>Thank you Pete. the mother went to the school and as you said, they

>played it down. I told her I would see if I could find out anything.

>several parents are upset. I well print this out and give to my

>daughter and maybe she can get with other parents and see what they

>can find out. I know the health dept was called in but things have

>been kept very quit sence.

The deal here is the party that injured your grand children does not want to

talk directly to 30 individual parents, and wants to take advantage of

having someone else do it. Dilution of responsibility is a common trick.

But the truth is the party causing the injury, must legally talk direct to the

parents, as that is the way injuries work to child. The health dept is not

responsible, as they were not even there. The school chaperon is

responsible, but not from a causation viewpoint. Therefore the

parents have a " lever " here, to get to talk directly to the parties

that caused the injury, for finding out what happened. College

officials will try to prevent this fact finding, as having 30 parents

talk separate to the fire bugs in 30 separate conversations...

To get the college officials to " cooperate " with a single Mom and Pop

is a 'tough' one, but it can be done. Too many details to post here.

If it were me, then I would have talked to the needed parties, and

have my answers already. My only concern is the health, and no

delays. A court order would speed up this, to the same day.

But such court orders have to be very specific to not fault finding,

but to child's health concerns, and timely treatment, meaning

if the college is not 'timely' in providing information related

to the child's IMMEDIATE treatment, they are fully liable

at a later time, for not juse the medical expenses, but also

penalties. The college lawyers know this. And when your

demands are " WRITTEN " and distributed to many parties, (initially -

in private say you want to handle this one on one without the other

parents involvement) making for full visibility, the college will

divulge info much

faster, particularly if it is focused on just the health issues

of " treatment " . Anything else turns into intentional neglect,

and it's document in writing, meaning up to 2-5 separate documents

a day, including a single distribution to several local newspapers,

or threat of, and copies to the DA, one can easily force the

college doors open and get info that day, or the next.

The college will bend over backwards to " privately " accommodate

parents who threaten to make it fully public to everyone, not

just other government officials like the DA. Even filing court

forms for an emergency injunction will get the doors to fly

wide open to one set of parents. Why? Filings are public.

Very public. A great lever. Waving the actual filled in form,

and having it ready to fax to the court clerk and get a hearing

that day... within the hour... and asking the college dean

to accompany you to the court room and face the judge...

the dean will say, let's do this private, What do you want now?

To talk to find out the chemicals? Samples from the source

containers? Pictures of the source containers? Get the shipping

orders for the source containers? Contact the chem supplier

for that batch to see if any complaints have come in?

And more... see the previous email.

>I well see if we can get some good pictures to send, my grandsons

>only had a few black spots, they are not bumps, they are under the

>skin, some children had alot of them.

That is key. Also key is the question, you mentioned just hands and arms.

Were any arms in sleeves? Thus, not exposed to an airborne particle?

Why not on their faces? Short pants means leg exposure?

You see it is most alarming to have spots only on the one type of extremity.

Ask the children if they had their arms up in the air.

Shielding their face??? Thus only one one side of their arms and hands??

You see the type of questions needed to be answered?

Good luck.

[Guest guest]

My daughter just told me that the newspaper reported that there was iodine in

the mixture and it caused the black dots, would this be a possable cause?

>

>

> >Thank you Pete. the mother went to the school and as you said, they

> >played it down. I told her I would see if I could find out anything.

> >several parents are upset. I well print this out and give to my

> >daughter and maybe she can get with other parents and see what they

> >can find out. I know the health dept was called in but things have

> >been kept very quit sence.

>

> The deal here is the party that injured your grand children does not want to

> talk directly to 30 individual parents, and wants to take advantage of

> having someone else do it. Dilution of responsibility is a common trick.

>

> But the truth is the party causing the injury, must legally talk direct to the

> parents, as that is the way injuries work to child. The health dept is not

> responsible, as they were not even there. The school chaperon is

> responsible, but not from a causation viewpoint. Therefore the

> parents have a " lever " here, to get to talk directly to the parties

> that caused the injury, for finding out what happened. College

> officials will try to prevent this fact finding, as having 30 parents

> talk separate to the fire bugs in 30 separate conversations...

>

> To get the college officials to " cooperate " with a single Mom and Pop

> is a 'tough' one, but it can be done. Too many details to post here.

> If it were me, then I would have talked to the needed parties, and

> have my answers already. My only concern is the health, and no

> delays. A court order would speed up this, to the same day.

> But such court orders have to be very specific to not fault finding,

> but to child's health concerns, and timely treatment, meaning

> if the college is not 'timely' in providing information related

> to the child's IMMEDIATE treatment, they are fully liable

> at a later time, for not juse the medical expenses, but also

> penalties. The college lawyers know this. And when your

> demands are " WRITTEN " and distributed to many parties, (initially -

> in private say you want to handle this one on one without the other

> parents involvement) making for full visibility, the college will

> divulge info much

> faster, particularly if it is focused on just the health issues

> of " treatment " . Anything else turns into intentional neglect,

> and it's document in writing, meaning up to 2-5 separate documents

> a day, including a single distribution to several local newspapers,

> or threat of, and copies to the DA, one can easily force the

> college doors open and get info that day, or the next.

>

> The college will bend over backwards to " privately " accommodate

> parents who threaten to make it fully public to everyone, not

> just other government officials like the DA. Even filing court

> forms for an emergency injunction will get the doors to fly

> wide open to one set of parents. Why? Filings are public.

> Very public. A great lever. Waving the actual filled in form,

> and having it ready to fax to the court clerk and get a hearing

> that day... within the hour... and asking the college dean

> to accompany you to the court room and face the judge...

> the dean will say, let's do this private, What do you want now?

> To talk to find out the chemicals? Samples from the source

> containers? Pictures of the source containers? Get the shipping

> orders for the source containers? Contact the chem supplier

> for that batch to see if any complaints have come in?

> And more... see the previous email.

>

> >I well see if we can get some good pictures to send, my grandsons

> >only had a few black spots, they are not bumps, they are under the

> >skin, some children had alot of them.

>

> That is key. Also key is the question, you mentioned just hands and arms.

> Were any arms in sleeves? Thus, not exposed to an airborne particle?

> Why not on their faces? Short pants means leg exposure?

>

> You see it is most alarming to have spots only on the one type of extremity.

>

> Ask the children if they had their arms up in the air.

> Shielding their face??? Thus only one one side of their arms and hands??

>

> You see the type of questions needed to be answered?

>

> Good luck.

>