Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

January 1, 2008

I am still thinking through my response to Steve but I have to agree with you on both nature, and on little boys (and girls). I also find the evidence of God's existence in the truly amazing and barely understood function of the human brain. We see due to the intricacies of how our brain interprets light, we hear due to how our brain interprets sound waves, etc etc. The scripture says His eternal Godship is clearly evident from the creation about us. But as I said, I am thinking through all that I want to say so will reserve further comment till my brain functions make sense of it! lol

Jane

,

I found your essay thoughtful and interesting. My feeling is that it is presumptuous of us to think that we can start to understand God, and that he is revealed differently to different people according to their culture, intelligence, understanding, and life experiences. Also that he may have different names to different people. I trust God to reveal himself to me and guide me in my life if I seek answers from him earnestly and sincerely. I tend to consider arrogant those people who aver that their interpretation of God is the true one, and the only path to salvation.

My personal proof that there is a God lies in the incredible beauty and intricacy of nature, and in the fact that most little boys live to grow up despite their dedication to self destruction practically from babyhood. Someone besides their poor parents is surely looking after them.

W

Man! You're goin' to hell!

Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the challenge, was, "because," nothing moreâ€¦ Although I expected more because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just "because." I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, according to his particular faith; "in spiritual jeopardy" is a better description of his standing. So stop and think about that answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most frequently expressed in elementary school, "because?" When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock. Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it goes without saying that "just winging it" would be frowned upon.In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, no. Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I would say to God with earnestness, "I searched for you all my life, but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan all along."Then I imagined that my friend would say, "Lord, I took a 50/50 gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward?"I asked my friend, "Who do you think God would be more impressed with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine because he knew not of what he spoke?" There was silence for a moment until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of relief, "Man, you're goin' to hell!"My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that neither of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a critical prerequisite of faith. If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no matter the condition of your faith.

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January 1, 2008

Hi , A number of years ago, I began walking with a friend. We would meet every other Tuesday, at the point where the Lehigh and Delaware canals meet. Walking along the Delaware was a bright and sunny experience. Along the Lehigh it was much shadier. Which path we'd take depended on whether we wanted sun or shade. It was in the spring and a bit cool when we started. So we would walk in the sun. We enjoyed our walks and talked of many things, our lives, politics, women, sports and what ever else would come up. There was a small bridge across the canal we would really look forward to. When we reached the bridge we could turn around. That always felt pretty good. Spring turned into summer and we began to take the Lehigh Canal where the shade was. Still talked of many things. Summer also brought many others along the path. There would be kids

there. Swimming in the canal. Diving from a high tressle into the refreshing water. Summer passed, in the fall we returned the Delaware. We must have been pretty chatty that day. Some time into the walk we began to wonder. Where's the bridge? Truth is we had passed it a mile or so back. Our walking was paying off. I find my faith journey much the same. Faith must be an action word. Believe and act according, and God will effect your life. Believing is seeing. If you have trouble believing, act accordingly anyway. The results will likely be the same. Hey, I think I'm going to enjoy walking with you all. Bob Heff Vaught wrote: Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed seeking the

truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the challenge, was, "because," nothing more… Although I expected more because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just "because." I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, according to his particular faith; "in spiritual jeopardy" is a better description of his standing. So stop and think about that answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most frequently expressed in elementary school, "because?" When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding of his belief system, but the

tricky part for me was that he was fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock. Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it goes without

saying that "just winging it" would be frowned upon.In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.In the year

2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, no. Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, so

no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I would say to God with earnestness, "I searched for you all my life, but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was

your plan all along."Then I imagined that my friend would say, "Lord, I took a 50/50 gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward?"I asked my friend, "Who do you think God would be more impressed with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine because he knew not of what he spoke?" There was silence for a moment until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of relief, "Man, you're goin' to hell!"My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that

neither of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a critical prerequisite of faith. If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one step closer

to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no matter the condition of your faith.

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January 1, 2008

,

I found your essay thoughtful and interesting. My feeling is that it is presumptuous of us to think that we can start to understand God, and that he is revealed differently to different people according to their culture, intelligence, understanding, and life experiences. Also that he may have different names to different people. I trust God to reveal himself to me and guide me in my life if I seek answers from him earnestly and sincerely. I tend to consider arrogant those people who aver that their interpretation of God is the true one, and the only path to salvation.

My personal proof that there is a God lies in the incredible beauty and intricacy of nature, and in the fact that most little boys live to grow up despite their dedication to self destruction practically from babyhood. Someone besides their poor parents is surely looking after them.

W

Man! You're goin' to hell!

Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the challenge, was, "because," nothing more… Although I expected more because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just "because." I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, according to his particular faith; "in spiritual jeopardy" is a better description of his standing. So stop and think about that answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most frequently expressed in elementary school, "because?" When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock. Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it goes without saying that "just winging it" would be frowned upon.In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, no. Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I would say to God with earnestness, "I searched for you all my life, but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan all along."Then I imagined that my friend would say, "Lord, I took a 50/50 gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward?"I asked my friend, "Who do you think God would be more impressed with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine because he knew not of what he spoke?" There was silence for a moment until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of relief, "Man, you're goin' to hell!"My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that neither of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a critical prerequisite of faith. If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no matter the condition of your faith.

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January 1, 2008

, you are so wise.

Elaine

,

I found your essay thoughtful and interesting. My feeling is that it is presumptuous of us to think that we can start to understand God, and that he is revealed differently to different people according to their culture, intelligence, understanding, and life experiences. Also that he may have different names to different people. I trust God to reveal himself to me and guide me in my life if I seek answers from him earnestly and sincerely. I tend to consider arrogant those people who aver that their interpretation of God is the true one, and the only path to salvation.

My personal proof that there is a God lies in the incredible beauty and intricacy of nature, and in the fact that most little boys live to grow up despite their dedication to self destruction practically from babyhood. Someone besides their poor parents is surely looking after them.

W

Man! You're goin' to hell!

Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the challenge, was, " because, " nothing more… Although I expected more because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just " because. " I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, according to his particular faith; " in spiritual jeopardy " is a better description of his standing. So stop and think about that answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most frequently expressed in elementary school, " because? " When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was

fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock.

Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it goes without saying that " just winging it " would be frowned upon.

In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I

knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number

even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, no. Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my

path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I

would say to God with earnestness, " I searched for you all my life, but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan all

along. " Then I imagined that my friend would say, " Lord, I took a 50/50 gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward? " I asked my friend, " Who do you think God would be more impressed with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine

because he knew not of what he spoke? " There was silence for a moment until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of

relief, " Man, you're goin' to hell! " My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that neither of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to

withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a critical prerequisite of faith. If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no matter the condition of your faith.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1206 - Release Date: 1/1/2008 12:09 PM

January 1, 2008

Steve,

I have never had a discussion with you before, but after reading the discourse that you just launched I can only say, SURELY you must have been an English major! lol You bring back memories of endless hours of those winding discussions fueled by supersized coffees and active, seeking, oversized imaginations. Ahhhh, those were the days.

First of all, your friend reminds me of one of those Catholic children who had his knuckles wrapped one too many times by an overzealous nun ( I was raised in upstate NY and back in those days there were many of those good old Catholic schools). Many of these children later rebelled against those strict tenets, but traces of that upbringing always remain dormant and they do tend to spit out things like "because" and "you are going to hell" even though at this point they have no conscious memory of WHY they believe these things. Just offer them sympathy, don't take them seriously, and move on. (Is your friends last name O'Brien?)

Personally, I think that for you to assume that EVERYONE has a need to endlessly seek spiritual answers and enlightenment is an attempt by you to impose your nature upon others. Being a spiritual seeker is simply one of your archetypes, as it is one of mine. Have you ever cast an archetypal wheel to determine your archetypes? It's fascinating and revealing. Caroline Myss has a good book about it - Sacred Contracts. You obviously have the spiritual seeker as one of yours and most of us who have problems with food probably have the Hedonist. Understanding and dealing with the positive and negative aspects of your archetypes can be very enlightening. It is not the nature of every human to "seek" spiritually and philosophically however, any more than it is probably the nature of you or I to be a warrior or an athlete, also very common universal archetypes.

Anyway, I digress. As far as questioning God, isn't that why we were given free will? It's not truly meaningful to believe in God unless we do it after examining the concept is it? I personally am not only certain that God exists, I am certain that I feel one with God every time I meditate or perform Reiki. I KNOW God exists on a CELLULAR level and would have no personal reason to defend my knowing through left brain "monkey logic" simply because I don't think the existence of God can be proven on that level. And this is perfectly valid. The fact that some people are only able to believe in what they can see, feel, touch, and quantify simply shows the limits of their abilities as far as I am concerned. I don't know any of these people who meditate, do Reiki, or seriously pray. They do not have a lot of contact with the abilities of their right brain. In the medical field, the next big area of discovery looming on the horizon is the field of energy medicine. It's a fact that meditation has the ability to change the physical structure of the brain - that has been measured. It's a fact that Reiki helps to heal - also has been measured. Its a fact that many of the techniques of Eastern medicine work and yet they cannot work without the concepts of lifeforce or spritual energy. And where does this lifeforce or spritual energy come from? Well for me that's an easy answer. For those who do not believe in God, I guess it must be a lot more complicated lol My inability to reduce what I "know" to terms that nonbelievers are able to grasp does not diminish the spritual reality in any way. I dearly love my dogs. I don't think I could explain quantum physics to them (or to anyone else for that matter). That does not mean that quantum physics does not exist, it simply means that their understanding and my ability to teach it are both limited.

Just another perspective on one of those discussions whose only purpose is for ongoing "food for thought", I assume lol

JanetSee AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

January 2, 2008

My personal proof that there is a God lies in the incredible beauty and intricacy of nature

,

I certainly agree with you on this one. The beauty of nature inspires such incredible awe. It goes beyond words

Janet

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January 2, 2008

Great story, beautifully told, Bob. So glad you are a part of us. Sometimes I am sad when someone stops being a part of the group (, Beth Lackey), but then we are blessed with new people. Something to be thankful for just now, with several of you who have come aboard in the past few weeks full of enthusiasm, resolve and hope.

W Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

Hi ,

A number of years ago, I began walking with a friend. We would meet every other Tuesday, at the point where the Lehigh and Delaware canals meet. Walking along the Delaware was a bright and sunny experience. Along the Lehigh it was much shadier. Which path we'd take depended on whether we wanted sun or shade. It was in the spring and a bit cool when we started. So we would walk in the sun. We enjoyed our walks and talked of many things, our lives, politics, women, sports and what ever else would come up. There was a small bridge across the canal we would really look forward to. When we reached the bridge we could turn around. That always felt pretty good. Spring turned into summer and we began to take the Lehigh Canal where the shade was. Still talked of many things. Summer also brought many others along the path. There would be kids there. Swimming in the canal. Diving from a high tressle into the refreshing water. Summer passed, in the fall

we returned the Delaware. We must have been pretty chatty that day. Some time into the walk we began to wonder. Where's the bridge? Truth is we had passed it a mile or so back. Our walking was paying off. I find my faith journey much the same. Faith must be an action word. Believe and act according, and God will effect your life. Believing is seeing.

If you have trouble believing, act accordingly anyway. The results will likely be the same.

Hey, I think I'm going to enjoy walking with you all.

Bob Heff

Vaught <vaught1gmail> wrote:

Rcently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the challenge, was, "because," nothing more… Although I expected more because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just "because." I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, according to his particular faith; "in spiritual jeopardy" is a better description of his standing. So stop and think about that answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most frequently expressed in elementary school, "because?" When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock. Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it goes without saying that "just winging it" would be frowned upon.In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, no. Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I would say to God with earnestness, "I searched for you all my life, but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan all along."Then I imagined that my friend would say, "Lord, I took a 50/50 gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward?"I asked my friend, "Who do you think God would be more impressed with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine because he knew not of what he spoke?" There was silence for a moment until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of relief, "Man, you're goin' to hell!"My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that neither of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a critical prerequisite of faith. If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no matter the condition of your faith.

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January 2, 2008

Talk about launching a discussion, Jane! I had to share your comments with my daughter (another English major :-) who (an agnostic) went to Catholic schools K through 12th grade. There was a strong, inquiring, Jesuit influence guiding the religious and intellectual education at her school, and while she never considered becoming Catholic, she gives her education there great credit for her moral and ethical values. Down here in the deep South we see the most judgemental and inflexible attitudes in the Southern Baptists and some of the conservative, evagelical religions, and much more flexible thought among many, if not most Catholics. That said, my father, a Baptist, was sent to a Catholic elementary school and had his knuckles rapped by nuns for trying to write with his left hand (a sure mark of the devil in those days). He talked of that with great bitterness his whole life. I am sure those nuns thought they were saving his soul by rapping his poor little knuckles.

Please do not consider this an attack on Baptists. Lots of people I admire and love are Baptists including about half my cousins and other relatives, and at least half of my neighbors.

W

Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

Steve,

I have never had a discussion with you before, but after reading the discourse that you just launched I can only say, SURELY you must have been an English major! lol You bring back memories of endless hours of those winding discussions fueled by supersized coffees and active, seeking, oversized imaginations. Ahhhh, those were the days.

First of all, your friend reminds me of one of those Catholic children who had his knuckles wrapped one too many times by an overzealous nun ( I was raised in upstate NY and back in those days there were many of those good old Catholic schools). Many of these children later rebelled against those strict tenets, but traces of that upbringing always remain dormant and they do tend to spit out things like "because" and "you are going to hell" even though at this point they have no conscious memory of WHY they believe these things. Just offer them sympathy, don't take them seriously, and move on. (Is your friends last name O'Brien?)

Personally, I think that for you to assume that EVERYONE has a need to endlessly seek spiritual answers and enlightenment is an attempt by you to impose your nature upon others. Being a spiritual seeker is simply one of your archetypes, as it is one of mine. Have you ever cast an archetypal wheel to determine your archetypes? It's fascinating and revealing. Caroline Myss has a good book about it - Sacred Contracts. You obviously have the spiritual seeker as one of yours and most of us who have problems with food probably have the Hedonist. Understanding and dealing with the positive and negative aspects of your archetypes can be very enlightening. It is not the nature of every human to "seek" spiritually and philosophically however, any more than it is probably the nature of you or I to be a warrior or an athlete, also very common universal archetypes.

Anyway, I digress. As far as questioning God, isn't that why we were given free will? It's not truly meaningful to believe in God unless we do it after examining the concept is it? I personally am not only certain that God exists, I am certain that I feel one with God every time I meditate or perform Reiki. I KNOW God exists on a CELLULAR level and would have no personal reason to defend my knowing through left brain "monkey logic" simply because I don't think the existence of God can be proven on that level. And this is perfectly valid. The fact that some people are only able to believe in what they can see, feel, touch, and quantify simply shows the limits of their abilities as far as I am concerned. I don't know any of these people who meditate, do Reiki, or seriously pray. They do not have a lot of contact with the abilities of their right brain. In the medical field, the next big area of discovery looming on the horizon is the field of energy medicine. It's a fact that meditation has the ability to change the physical structure of the brain - that has been measured. It's a fact that Reiki helps to heal - also has been measured. Its a fact that many of the techniques of Eastern medicine work and yet they cannot work without the concepts of lifeforce or spritual energy. And where does this lifeforce or spritual energy come from? Well for me that's an easy answer. For those who do not believe in God, I guess it must be a lot more complicated lol My inability to reduce what I "know" to terms that nonbelievers are able to grasp does not diminish the spritual reality in any way. I dearly love my dogs. I don't think I could explain quantum physics to them (or to anyone else for that matter). That does not mean that quantum physics does not exist, it simply means that their understanding and my ability to teach it are both limited.

Just another perspective on one of those discussions whose only purpose is for ongoing "food for thought", I assume lol

Janet

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January 2, 2008

Please do not consider this an attack on Baptists. Lots of people I admire and love are Baptists including about half my cousins and other relatives, and at least half of my neighbors

,

When I was married I spent 14 years in Mobile, Alabama where my ex husband is from so I am very familiar with the Southern Baptists. My ex husband used to say they are like the Mormons, if you see them knocking at the door don't answer because the Baptists will take over your whole life! lol Now he has returned to his roots and become one I hear! Yep, I know all about the religious influence in the deep south! Where do you live?

JanetSee AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

January 3, 2008

I live in Long Beach, about an hour (75miles) west of Mobile. It is a small town spread out along the gulf, wide from east to west, narrow from north to south, so about half wiped out by Katrina.

Actually, I like to talk with the Mormons, mostly because they are usually from the west, often Utah, which I love, and are always homesick. I can get them to talk about home which they seem to love to do and it is usually an enjoyable time. Pentecostals, I also find to be almost always very polite and sincere. I take their literature and voice my gratitude for their caring about my spiritual well-being. I guess they encounter so many rude people, they are glad for a polite response. Whoever they represent, I tell them that I am firm in my beliefs, and respect them for theirs. This is harder to do with those who are insistent on trying to convince you that you are going to hell if you do not accept their beliefs. I have not encountered this attitude with missionaries from the two above faiths, but have any number of times with Southern Baptists.

My husband was Baptist but went to a Catholic (Jesuit) college- Springhill in Mobile, for undergrad and had become amazingly broad thinking by the time I met him, not at all typical of a good 'ole redneck Mississippi boy. He was in his mid thirties by the time I met him and had lived all over the world, so shed a lot of attitudes along the way. I am a North Carolinian by birth and attitude, so much too liberal thinking for someone who has spent most of her adult life here in Mississippi.

When I was young, I learned to keep most of my opinions to myself. Now I am old and care less about what people think of me, and more about respecting myself.

W Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

In a message dated 1/3/2008 12:31:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net writes:

Please do not consider this an attack on Baptists. Lots of people I admire and love are Baptists including about half my cousins and other relatives, and at least half of my neighbors

,

When I was married I spent 14 years in Mobile, Alabama where my ex husband is from so I am very familiar with the Southern Baptists. My ex husband used to say they are like the Mormons, if you see them knocking at the door don't answer because the Baptists will take over your whole life! lol Now he has returned to his roots and become one I hear! Yep, I know all about the religious influence in the deep south! Where do you live?

Janet

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January 3, 2008

m old and care less about what people think of me, and more about respecting myself.

,

I am menopausal and I say and think whatever I please. lol Dr. Northrup wrote a book called The Wisdom of Menopause, have you ever seen it? In is she explains that prior to puberty girls put themselves first. Then estrogen kicks in and we spend our lives raising kids and functioning as caregivers and our own needs to go the bottom of the list. She says that the reason menopausal women get such a bad rap is that we reach the age where all that estrogen goes away and suddenly our priorities change and we come out at the head of the list again and all of those people who are used to us waiting on them and giving up our needs for them are frequently in for a big shock! lol Anyway, all to say that most women over the age of 50 pretty much say and think what they feel. Personally, I love it lol

JanetStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

January 3, 2008

Makes me think of the "catching flies with honey" saying, Elaine. It makes you wonder what she thought she was accomplishing, insulting you via your religion.

I heard very recently that they had rebuilt Navoo after all these years. I think it was burned down when the Mormons were forced out. It sounds like a fascinating place to visit, one of the less proud chapters in our history, like the town in Florida inhabited entirely by black people which was wiped out in the early part of the 1900's.

W

Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

In a message dated 1/3/2008 12:31:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net writes:

Please do not consider this an attack on Baptists. Lots of people I admire and love are Baptists including about half my cousins and other relatives, and at least half of my neighbors

,

When I was married I spent 14 years in Mobile, Alabama where my ex husband is from so I am very familiar with the Southern Baptists. My ex husband used to say they are like the Mormons, if you see them knocking at the door don't answer because the Baptists will take over your whole life! lol Now he has returned to his roots and become one I hear! Yep, I know all about the religious influence in the deep south! Where do you live?

Janet

See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

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January 3, 2008

I hadn't heard about the town in Florida. I have ancestors who were forced out of Acadia by the English. I think you recently mentioned that group. Then there are the slaves who were not only mistreated by whites but by other Africans as well. The Indians are another group. People have mistreated people for a very long time. With the recent assassination

of Bhutto, one wonders if it will ever stop.

It's late for you, .

Elaine

Makes me think of the " catching flies with honey " saying, Elaine. It makes you wonder what she thought she was accomplishing, insulting you via your religion.

I heard very recently that they had rebuilt Navoo after all these years. I think it was burned down when the Mormons were forced out. It sounds like a fascinating place to visit, one of the less proud chapters in our history, like the town in Florida inhabited entirely by black people which was wiped out in the early part of the 1900's.

W

Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

Please do not consider this an attack on Baptists. Lots of people I admire and love are Baptists including about half my cousins and other relatives, and at least half of my neighbors

,

When I was married I spent 14 years in Mobile, Alabama where my ex husband is from so I am very familiar with the Southern Baptists. My ex husband used to say they are like the Mormons, if you see them knocking at the door don't answer because the Baptists will take over your whole life! lol Now he has returned to his roots and become one I hear! Yep, I know all about the religious influence in the deep south! Where do you live?

Janet

See AOL's

top rated recipes and

easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

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January 4, 2008

ROFL! Me too!

Jane

Anyway, all to say that most women over the age of 50 pretty much say and think what they feel. Personally, I love it lol

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

January 4, 2008

Ok I have thought about this, and I am sure I will continue to do so. I will come up with other things the more I think, I usually do but i am going to respond now with a few of my opinions...or the beginning of my opinion...or whatever.

I believe we were called to be witnesses of God. We are not judges, or lawyers. Or we are not supposed to be. It is God's job to judge. Our job is to bear witness to what He says is truth, and to let people decide for themselves what they wish to believe. Once we find what we believe to be truth, do we necessarily stop looking? Some do, some don't.

God gave all of us a mind, the ability to learn, and the ability to make use of what we learn. Then he told us how to live to gain the most benefit. He wants us to choose his way. But he leaves it up to each of us to find him. Although he promises he will be there when we do.

Just as the creator of anything, be it a house, a car, a watch, whatever, has the right to tell how it is used for the most benefit God has the right to tell us how to live and get the most benefit. He made us in his image and gave us power, love, justice, and wisdom. We can use these to benefit ourselves and praise him or not...our choice. We always need to know we reap the results of our choice. And we should be able to give a reason for whatever choice we make. "Because" is not a reason. For anything. It is a word. With little meaning I might add.

I also believe our faith needs to be based on evidence. The scripture in says faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for tho not yet realized. based on EVIDENT realities.

And yes, faith is an ongoing test. One that needs to be checked. To make sure it is based on the realities and can stand the test of not always being what we want. Because it is not about what we want but about what is best for us. And He is the one who knows.

Mankind is in a trial. Satan has charged that no one will serve God unless he can get something out of it. He claims we can rule ourselves without God's help. It is up to each individual person to provide the answer to that by looking for, finding, and obeying God. or not.

And in the end, only He will judge.

That is my view. and my belief. and my hope. and my faith.

Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the challenge, was, "because," nothing moreâ€¦ Although I expected more because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just "because." I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, according to his particular faith; "in spiritual jeopardy" is a better description of his standing. So stop and think about that answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most frequently expressed in elementary school, "because?" When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock. Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it goes without saying that "just winging it" would be frowned upon.In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, no. Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I would say to God with earnestness, "I searched for you all my life, but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan all along."Then I imagined that my friend would say, "Lord, I took a 50/50 gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward?"I asked my friend, "Who do you think God would be more impressed with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine because he knew not of what he spoke?" There was silence for a moment until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of relief, "Man, you're goin' to hell!"My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that neither of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a critical prerequisite of faith. If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no matter the condition of your faith. Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

January 4, 2008

HI Jane: This is Shirley from Southern Illinois. I know I haven't written in a long time but I read all the messages. I just couldn't let this go without commenting on it. You did a WONDERFUL job of describing how and why you felt about Steve's question.

If I would have tried to write I would have liked to have been able to put it half as well.

W. also gave a good answer.

I am doing pretty good since my knee replacements. I still have aches and pains but not as bad in my knees. I guess a lot of it goes with the age - HA. I will be 74 the 19th of this month. So my joints are kind of creaky.

I wish everyone a HAPPY, HEALTHY, PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR

Shirley from Southern Illinois

Subj: Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

Date: 1/4/2008 9:25:56 PM Central Standard Time

From: jjsmth@...

Reply-to: thefatmanwalking_group

To: thefatmanwalking_group

Sent from the Internet

Ok I have thought about this, and I am sure I will continue to do so. I will come up with other things the more I think, I usually do but i am going to respond now with a few of my opinions...or the beginning of my opinion...or whatever.

I believe we were called to be witnesses of God. We are not judges, or lawyers. Or we are not supposed to be. It is God's job to judge. Our job is to bear witness to what He says is truth, and to let people decide for themselves what they wish to believe. Once we find what we believe to be truth, do we necessarily stop looking? Some do, some don't.

God gave all of us a mind, the ability to learn, and the ability to make use of what we learn. Then he told us how to live to gain the most benefit. He wants us to choose his way. But he leaves it up to each of us to find him. Although he promises he will be there when we do.

Just as the creator of anything, be it a house, a car, a watch, whatever, has the right to tell how it is used for the most benefit God has the right to tell us how to live and get the most benefit. He made us in his image and gave us power, love, justice, and wisdom. We can use these to benefit ourselves and praise him or not...our choice. We always need to know we reap the results of our choice. And we should be able to give a reason for whatever choice we make. "Because" is not a reason. For anything. It is a word. With little meaning I might add.

I also believe our faith needs to be based on evidence. The scripture in says faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for tho not yet realized. based on EVIDENT realities.

And yes, faith is an ongoing test. One that needs to be checked. To make sure it is based on the realities and can stand the test of not always being what we want. Because it is not about what we want but about what is best for us. And He is the one who knows.

Mankind is in a trial. Satan has charged that no one will serve God unless he can get something out of it. He claims we can rule ourselves without God's help. It is up to each individual person to provide the answer to that by looking for, finding, and obeying God. or not.

And in the end, only He will judge.

That is my view. and my belief. and my hope. and my faith.

MINE TOO!!!

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

January 4, 2008

Thank you Shirley! I try in my humble way to express myself and I am never sure if what I mean actually comes through. I liked W's answer too. Wahoo for being 74. what a great thing! I am glad your knees are better. Some things are age and some things are just a pain. My daughter inherited my mom's knees. She has to have a second surgery soon, as the cushioning stuff deteriorates and has to be refilled. Or something like that! lol She had her first surgery when she was 17. Poor thing

We have a family with bad hips, bad knees and bad backs....somehow I missed all of them! (so glad!)

My heroes are and always have been those people who do not let age or handicaps stop them from living life. That means you rank right up there Shirley! Have a good year!

Jane

HI Jane: This is Shirley from Southern Illinois. I know I haven't written in a long time but I read all the messages. I just couldn't let this go without commenting on it. You did a WONDERFUL job of describing how and why you felt about Steve's question.If I would have tried to write I would have liked to have been able to put it half as well. W. also gave a good answer.I am doing pretty good since my knee replacements. I still have aches and pains but not as bad in my knees. I guess a lot of it goes with the age - HA. I will be 74 the 19th of this month. So my joints are kind of creaky.I wish everyone a HAPPY, HEALTHY, PROSPEROUS NEW YEARShirley from Southern Illinois

Subj: Re: Man! You're goin' to hell! Date: 1/4/2008 9:25:56 PM Central Standard TimeFrom: jjsmth@...Reply-to: thefatmanwalking_group To: thefatmanwalking_group Sent from the Internet Ok I have thought about this, and I am sure I will continue to do so. I will come up with other things the more I think, I usually do but i am going to respond now with a few of my opinions...or the beginning of my opinion...or whatever. I believe we were called to be witnesses of God. We are not judges, or lawyers. Or we are not supposed to be. It is God's job to judge. Our job is to bear witness to what He says is truth, and to let people decide for themselves what they wish to believe. Once we find what we believe to be truth, do we necessarily stop looking? Some do, some don't. God gave all of us a mind, the ability to learn, and the ability to make use of what we learn. Then he told us how to live to gain the most benefit. He wants us to choose his way. But he leaves it up to each of us to find him. Although he promises he will be there when we do.Just as the creator of anything, be it a house, a car, a watch, whatever, has the right to tell how it is used for the most benefit God has the right to tell us how to live and get the most benefit. He made us in his image and gave us power, love, justice, and wisdom. We can use these to benefit ourselves and praise him or not...our choice. We always need to know we reap the results of our choice. And we should be able to give a reason for whatever choice we make. "Because" is not a reason. For anything. It is a word. With little meaning I might add.I also believe our faith needs to be based on evidence. The scripture in says faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for tho not yet realized. based on EVIDENT realities.And yes, faith is an ongoing test. One that needs to be checked. To make sure it is based on the realities and can stand the test of not always being what we want. Because it is not about what we want but about what is best for us. And He is the one who knows. Mankind is in a trial. Satan has charged that no one will serve God unless he can get something out of it. He claims we can rule ourselves without God's help. It is up to each individual person to provide the answer to that by looking for, finding, and obeying God. or not.And in the end, only He will judge.That is my view. and my belief. and my hope. and my faith.MINE TOO!!!**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

January 4, 2008

Thank you Elaine!

Jane

Hello Shirley!! I've often wondered about you, how you are doing. I'm so glad to hear from you.

I also like what jane and had to say. I'm a big fan of both.

Take care. Happy New Year.

Elaine

On 1/4/08, sbrown857aol <sbrown857aol> wrote:

HI Jane: This is Shirley from Southern Illinois. I know I haven't written in a long time but I read all the messages. I just couldn't let this go without commenting on it. You did a WONDERFUL job of describing how and why you felt about Steve's question. If I would have tried to write I would have liked to have been able to put it half as well. W. also gave a good answer.I am doing pretty good since my knee replacements. I still have aches and pains but not as bad in my knees. I guess a lot of it goes with the age - HA. I will be 74 the 19th of this month. So my joints are kind of creaky. I wish everyone a HAPPY, HEALTHY, PROSPEROUS NEW YEARShirley from Southern Illinois

..

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

January 4, 2008

Hi Steve

I have not completed reading your email, it is late and I am working

in the morning. But to quickly reply to your friend's statement

of " to question the existence of God is a sin "

His statement is rather misleading to say the least, it is almost as

bad as the one I heard " it is a sin to be poor "

Both those statements are loaded with debate and questions, terms of

reference, etcetera.

Some religions know most people cannot think for themselves, and the

same people have not got the ability to understand God , and cannot

visualise God. Consequently, the religion says do as I teach, do as I

say, and you will be better off than stiring up alot of thoughts and

feeling about God.

The Dalia Lama knows it is better for the majority of people to stay

within their own religion and he teaches this.

So Steve what I am trying to say is this

If you venture outside the parameters of your birth religion, your

mother's religion then be prepared for statements like " it is a sin

to question the existence of God "

God knows what you are doing and thinking all the time, and

eventually you will find Jesus is not far away, as you may think.

Jesus is simply patiently waiting for people to know the truth and

love God has for people.

Alot of those questions, statements, such as your friend's, are of

little or no consequence before God,

Do you really think God cares how a person gets to love God?

Be it, do what the religion tells the people or do what the person

has done one his or her own behalf.

In the end there is only Love and truth before God

Jesus is one God, there is one God, God of Love. That one is truth.

regards from

Bill

>

> Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God,

> something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my

> life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the

> search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts,

methods

> and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point,

> quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to

> question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the

> least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had

to

> conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he

believed

> seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply;

but

> that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as

the

> challenge, was, " because, " nothing more… Although I expected more

> because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for

proof

> because I don't think there is any; but certainly not

just " because. "

> I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or

> event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact,

> according to his particular faith; " in spiritual jeopardy " is a

> better description of his standing. So stop and think about that

> answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his

> understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most

> frequently expressed in elementary school, " because? "

> When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his

> remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding

> of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was

> fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of

the

> underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed

self-

> assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock.

> Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers,

and

> incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which

> eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the

> modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social

trends

> or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake

> of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having

> accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would

> certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God;

that

> being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make

every

> effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it

> goes without saying that " just winging it " would be frowned upon.

> In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their

> beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding,

> commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most

> believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are

from

> God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to

> live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not

> speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much

> credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed

> my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to

> know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the

rules,

> I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If

I

> knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some

of

> you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.

> In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God

and

> his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are

> everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he

> shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact

> caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large

number

> even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all.

> With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our

> universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human

> existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for

the

> truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts,

> no.

> Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely

> because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same

rigorous

> reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven.

But

> if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find

him,

> so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking

> that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the

> issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or

> real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining

the

> knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature

of

> the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God.

> Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how

> to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of

my

> path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I

did

> find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much

> chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I

> would say to God with earnestness, " I searched for you all my life,

> but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a

> moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan

all

> along. "

> Then I imagined that my friend would say, " Lord, I took a 50/50

> gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose

> with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been

> looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward? "

> I asked my friend, " Who do you think God would be more impressed

> with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false

> beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who

> accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal

and

> then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown

doctrine

> because he knew not of what he spoke? " There was silence for a

moment

> until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and

I

> was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of

> relief, " Man, you're goin' to hell! "

> My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that

neither

> of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely

> spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take

a

> journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their

lifetime.

> To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to

see

> what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part

to

> withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth.

> If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led

you

> to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself?

> Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a

> critical prerequisite of faith.

> If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you

can

> carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears

and

> demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way

you

> reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one

> step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal

no

> matter the condition of your faith.

>

January 4, 2008

Hello Shirley!! I've often wondered about you, how you are doing. I'm so glad to hear from you.

I also like what jane and had to say. I'm a big fan of both.

Take care. Happy New Year.

Elaine

HI Jane: This is Shirley from Southern Illinois. I know I haven't written in a long time but I read all the messages. I just couldn't let this go without commenting on it. You did a WONDERFUL job of describing how and why you felt about Steve's question.

If I would have tried to write I would have liked to have been able to put it half as well. W. also gave a good answer.I am doing pretty good since my knee replacements. I still have aches and pains but not as bad in my knees. I guess a lot of it goes with the age - HA. I will be 74 the 19th of this month. So my joints are kind of creaky.

I wish everyone a HAPPY, HEALTHY, PROSPEROUS NEW YEARShirley from Southern Illinois

..

January 4, 2008

I love it too!! No, I have not read that book, but got a couple of & Noble gift cards for Christmas, and will now buy that book with one of them. Thanks for letting us know about it, Janet

Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

In a message dated 1/4/2008 12:31:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, labtrek1941bellsouth (DOT) net writes:

m old and care less about what people think of me, and more about respecting myself.

,

I am menopausal and I say and think whatever I please. lol Dr. Northrup wrote a book called The Wisdom of Menopause, have you ever seen it? In is she explains that prior to puberty girls put themselves first. Then estrogen kicks in and we spend our lives raising kids and functioning as caregivers and our own needs to go the bottom of the list. She says that the reason menopausal women get such a bad rap is that we reach the age where all that estrogen goes away and suddenly our priorities change and we come out at the head of the list again and all of those people who are used to us waiting on them and giving up our needs for them are frequently in for a big shock! lol Anyway, all to say that most women over the age of 50 pretty much say and think what they feel. Personally, I love it lol

Janet

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008 12:05 PM

January 4, 2008

ï»¿

The older I get, the more surely I think things happen for a reason. The questioning you mention I think applies to all our relations with God. My sister-in-law is a registered nurse, and has been at the same hospital since she graduated from college. She started as a staff nurse, got her masters degree (MBA with emphasis on hospital administration) and her CCRN (critical care certification) and for years has been the clinical coordinator for ICU and ER. Now her hospital has been bought by a corporation and closed down. Even with all her credentials, management positions are all taken in this immediate area, and she has had to take a job as a staff nurse in another hospital. She is, not surprisingly, quite depressed. I feel for her, but wonder if this is not a hidden opportunity. She and my brother do not have children and he has his own business as well as being a full-time firefighter. Her mother is elderly, feeble has has a multitude of health problems. My brother and sister-in-law got married just a couple of weeks before Hurricane Katrina, and both have worked 60 to 80 hour weeks ever since. Being a staff nurse wil not make a huge difference in their income. All of us who are nurses know that salaried managers, for the most part, work longer hours, and at least in the hospitals make less on an hourly basis than staff nurses. Christa can now devote her new spare time to nurturing her still young marriage, and to caring for the increasing needs of her mother. I have to believe that this is just one more situation where one can look at what seems to be a bad thing and find that there might be the opportunity to make important and beneficial changes. Some could call it the hand of God. I would do so.

One of my favorite writers, Madeline L'Engle, said that people often complain that they made a request og God, and that God did not answer them. In truth, she says, God did answer. He just did not say yes. Like good parents, the answer that is best for us is not always the one we wanted to hear.

Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

Ok I have thought about this, and I am sure I will continue to do so. I will come up with other things the more I think, I usually do but i am going to respond now with a few of my opinions...or the beginning of my opinion...or whatever.

I believe we were called to be witnesses of God. We are not judges, or lawyers. Or we are not supposed to be. It is God's job to judge. Our job is to bear witness to what He says is truth, and to let people decide for themselves what they wish to believe. Once we find what we believe to be truth, do we necessarily stop looking? Some do, some don't.

God gave all of us a mind, the ability to learn, and the ability to make use of what we learn. Then he told us how to live to gain the most benefit. He wants us to choose his way. But he leaves it up to each of us to find him. Although he promises he will be there when we do.

Just as the creator of anything, be it a house, a car, a watch, whatever, has the right to tell how it is used for the most benefit God has the right to tell us how to live and get the most benefit. He made us in his image and gave us power, love, justice, and wisdom. We can use these to benefit ourselves and praise him or not...our choice. We always need to know we reap the results of our choice. And we should be able to give a reason for whatever choice we make. "Because" is not a reason. For anything. It is a word. With little meaning I might add.

I also believe our faith needs to be based on evidence. The scripture in says faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for tho not yet realized. based on EVIDENT realities.

And yes, faith is an ongoing test. One that needs to be checked. To make sure it is based on the realities and can stand the test of not always being what we want. Because it is not about what we want but about what is best for us. And He is the one who knows.

Mankind is in a trial. Satan has charged that no one will serve God unless he can get something out of it. He claims we can rule ourselves without God's help. It is up to each individual person to provide the answer to that by looking for, finding, and obeying God. or not.

And in the end, only He will judge.

That is my view. and my belief. and my hope. and my faith.

In a message dated 1/1/2008 4:59:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vaught1gmail writes:

Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the challenge, was, "because," nothing moreâ€¦ Although I expected more because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just "because." I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, according to his particular faith; "in spiritual jeopardy" is a better description of his standing. So stop and think about that answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most frequently expressed in elementary school, "because?" When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock. Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it goes without saying that "just winging it" would be frowned upon.In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, no. Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I would say to God with earnestness, "I searched for you all my life, but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan all along."Then I imagined that my friend would say, "Lord, I took a 50/50 gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward?"I asked my friend, "Who do you think God would be more impressed with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine because he knew not of what he spoke?" There was silence for a moment until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of relief, "Man, you're goin' to hell!"My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that neither of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a critical prerequisite of faith. If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no matter the condition of your faith.

Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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January 4, 2008

Great to hear from you, Shirley. So good to hear that you are doing better after your knee replacement. I think you express youself very well and I have missed your postings. My youngest grandson (the light of my life) will be 1 on your birthday.

W

Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

HI Jane: This is Shirley from Southern Illinois. I know I haven't written in a long time but I read all the messages. I just couldn't let this go without commenting on it. You did a WONDERFUL job of describing how and why you felt about Steve's question.If I would have tried to write I would have liked to have been able to put it half as well. W. also gave a good answer.I am doing pretty good since my knee replacements. I still have aches and pains but not as bad in my knees. I guess a lot of it goes with the age - HA. I will be 74 the 19th of this month. So my joints are kind of creaky.I wish everyone a HAPPY, HEALTHY, PROSPEROUS NEW YEARShirley from Southern Illinois

Subj: Re: Man! You're goin' to hell! Date: 1/4/2008 9:25:56 PM Central Standard TimeFrom: jjsmth@...Reply-to: thefatmanwalking_group To: thefatmanwalking_group Sent from the Internet Ok I have thought about this, and I am sure I will continue to do so. I will come up with other things the more I think, I usually do but i am going to respond now with a few of my opinions...or the beginning of my opinion...or whatever. I believe we were called to be witnesses of God. We are not judges, or lawyers. Or we are not supposed to be. It is God's job to judge. Our job is to bear witness to what He says is truth, and to let people decide for themselves what they wish to believe. Once we find what we believe to be truth, do we necessarily stop looking? Some do, some don't. God gave all of us a mind, the ability to learn, and the ability to make use of what we learn. Then he told us how to live to gain the most benefit. He wants us to choose his way. But he leaves it up to each of us to find him. Although he promises he will be there when we do.Just as the creator of anything, be it a house, a car, a watch, whatever, has the right to tell how it is used for the most benefit God has the right to tell us how to live and get the most benefit. He made us in his image and gave us power, love, justice, and wisdom. We can use these to benefit ourselves and praise him or not...our choice. We always need to know we reap the results of our choice. And we should be able to give a reason for whatever choice we make. "Because" is not a reason. For anything. It is a word. With little meaning I might add.I also believe our faith needs to be based on evidence. The scripture in says faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for tho not yet realized. based on EVIDENT realities.And yes, faith is an ongoing test. One that needs to be checked. To make sure it is based on the realities and can stand the test of not always being what we want. Because it is not about what we want but about what is best for us. And He is the one who knows. Mankind is in a trial. Satan has charged that no one will serve God unless he can get something out of it. He claims we can rule ourselves without God's help. It is up to each individual person to provide the answer to that by looking for, finding, and obeying God. or not.And in the end, only He will judge.That is my view. and my belief. and my hope. and my faith.MINE TOO!!!**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

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January 4, 2008

Bill, You, as you so often do, expressed exactly what I was trying to say to my daughter the other day. In listening to people, over a lifetime, it has become evident to me that people can be quite different in ability to react or understand and that one's preceptions of anything is colored by culture and upbringing. They interpret their deity in light of all this, and in essence, create a deity to fit their culture and personal need. This does not change the ultimate truth of God, just a person's concept of God. It has always seemed to me to be the ultimate arrogance to think we can start to understand God. We can only understand what He decides we need to know, and that could be different for different people in light of their culture and abilities. He is there for all of us and will provide according to our needs.

W

Re: Man! You're goin' to hell!

Hi SteveI have not completed reading your email, it is late and I am working in the morning. But to quickly reply to your friend's statement of "to question the existence of God is a sin"His statement is rather misleading to say the least, it is almost as bad as the one I heard " it is a sin to be poor"Both those statements are loaded with debate and questions, terms of reference, etcetera.Some religions know most people cannot think for themselves, and the same people have not got the ability to understand God , and cannot visualise God. Consequently, the religion says do as I teach, do as I say, and you will be better off than stiring up alot of thoughts and feeling about God.The Dalia Lama knows it is better for the majority of people to stay within their own religion and he teaches this.So Steve what I am trying to say is thisIf you venture outside the parameters of your birth religion, your mother's religion then be prepared for statements like " it is a sin to question the existence of God"God knows what you are doing and thinking all the time, and eventually you will find Jesus is not far away, as you may think. Jesus is simply patiently waiting for people to know the truth and love God has for people.Alot of those questions, statements, such as your friend's, are of little or no consequence before God,Do you really think God cares how a person gets to love God?Be it, do what the religion tells the people or do what the person has done one his or her own behalf.In the end there is only Love and truth before GodJesus is one God, there is one God, God of Love. That one is truth.regards fromBill>> Recently I was challenged about my hard wrought search for God, > something that has consumed me for many years. At this point in my > life I feel comfortable with the results of my searching and the > search itself, feeling sufficiently confident in my efforts, methods > and reasoning. But this friend had brought up an interesting point, > quite by accident I suspect, interesting nonetheless. He said: to > question the existence of God is a sin. I was surprised to say the > least; my friend isn't typically given to fits or spasms, so I had to > conclude he said this voluntarily, now I have to ask why he believed > seeking the truth was a sin and awaited his well reasoned reply; but > that wasn't about to happen, instead, his reply, as remarkable as the > challenge, was, "because," nothing more… Although I expected more > because my friend is not an idiot, I wasn't exactly waiting for proof > because I don't think there is any; but certainly not just "because." > I'm willing to accept that people believe solely on a feeling or > event in their lives, but my friend isn't a pious man, in fact, > according to his particular faith; "in spiritual jeopardy" is a > better description of his standing. So stop and think about that > answer for a moment, when he's speaking on behalf of his > understanding of God and all he can conjure up is a phrase most > frequently expressed in elementary school, "because?" > When pressed, it was clear that my friend had no real basis for his > remark; it's just what he thinks without even a basic understanding > of his belief system, but the tricky part for me was that he was > fervent in his remarks veracity. So, with little understanding of the > underlying reason for his faith, he deemed me sinful, and seemed self-> assured of his righteousness to boot; he's truly one of the flock. > Well herein lies my biggest concern with dogma and the followers, and > incidentally also the reason for my initial doubt as a child which > eventually lead me to search for God's existence. It's the > modification of scripture to fit the time's science and social trends > or in this case, a lazy and almost whimsical adherence for the sake > of not going to hell. It occurs to me that if God did exist, having > accomplished even a fraction of what he is credited with, he would > certainly have made a definitive scripture, a true word of God; that > being so, obedience would be prudent and each soul should make every > effort in this lifetime to get it right, not just guess. I think it > goes without saying that "just winging it" would be frowned upon.> In my mind the fact that most people don't bother to question their > beliefs makes me wonder about the level of their understanding, > commitment, and ultimately, their faith in that belief system. Most > believers accept their particular religion and its teachings are from > God or God inspired, but they challenge that same by continuing to > live life contrary to the tenets imposed. This arrogance does not > speak well of the power of that particular deity or lend much > credence to the adherents true faith. Certainly if I truly believed > my eternal damnation was on the line, I would make every attempt to > know what building God lived in at the very least. As for the rules, > I would certainly try my hardest to understand and follow them. If I > knew God existed, I wouldn't gamble with my soul. Now I know some of > you are freaking out. Don't worry; I think I have a plan.> In the year 2007 it seems there should be little doubt about God and > his laws, we all have reasonable educations, religious books are > everywhere, God is on everything from car bombs to currency, he > shouldn't be hard to find. But this isn't the case, and that fact > caused questions of faith for more than a few people, a large number > even having difficulty believing that God was ever there at all. > With the advances in our knowledge, new discoveries about our > universe and inner workings we're at a great position in human > existence for reason and faith. But ultimately one must lose for the > truth to be found. Or does it? Science says yes, but faith accepts, > no. > Now one can't say definitively that God doesn't exist precisely > because it can't be proven. But we must also apply that same rigorous > reasoning to whether God does exist, which also can't be proven. But > if God is real, he gave us the very tools we now employ to find him, > so no turning out the lights on this one folks. You may be thinking > that belief is a matter of faith, and I say faith is exactly the > issue at hand because there can be no real faith without belief, or > real belief without knowledge, and a lack of interest in gaining the > knowledge is very telling and, in my mind, against the very nature of > the abilities God has empowered us with, therefore, against God. > Stunned by the arrogance of my friend's remark and uncertain of how > to proceed logically, I decided to explain why I was confident of my > path of questioning. I told him that I believed when I died, if I did > find myself standing next to him before God, I'd have just as much > chance of getting into heaven as he did, maybe even more. Because I > would say to God with earnestness, "I searched for you all my life, > but, as you know, our paths never crossed. Despite that, I lead a > moral and just life. I now have to accept that this was your plan all > along."> Then I imagined that my friend would say, "Lord, I took a 50/50 > gamble that you were there, I didn't really know and played loose > with the rules, living life as I saw fit, while I should have been > looking. But as it turns out, I was right. So, where's my reward?"> I asked my friend, "Who do you think God would be more impressed > with, someone who searched for truth and never settled on false > beliefs systems because it was easy or comfortable, or someone who > accepted what was handed down to him, never questioning its metal and > then used it to judge someone else, proselytizing a unknown doctrine > because he knew not of what he spoke?" There was silence for a moment > until he had a glow come over him, it seemed he had an epiphany and I > was excited. At least until he blurted out with some measure of > relief, "Man, you're goin' to hell!"> My point isn't that I'm right or he's wrong, rather it's that neither > of us truly knows and to state otherwise is ignorance, and likely > spiritual suicide. I believe its incumbent upon each person to take a > journey of spiritual self-discovery at some point in their lifetime. > To determine beliefs, tests their sturdiness, shake them a bit to see > what falls loose and only then accept what remains, the only part to > withstand your natural ability to reason, the truth. > If after all this you find God then it was a test God himself led you > to, otherwise why would you have the ability to think for yourself? > Then you can truly be confident in the knowledge of your path; a > critical prerequisite of faith. > If, on the other hand, you find that you don't believe, then you can > carry on the rest of your life free and open, purged of the fears and > demons set upon you by misguided people in childhood. Either way you > reconcile the lurking doubt, the unsettled what if's and move one > step closer to enlightenment, which all can agree is a worthy goal no > matter the condition of your faith.>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 1/4/2008 12:05 PM

January 4, 2008

The older I get, the more surely I think things happen for a reason

,

Personally, I don't think there are any accidents or coincidences. There are just ongoing presentations of opportunities for learning and growth and some of them are very painful.

If I were your sister-in-law, I would wonder if its time to get out of nursing completely and do something else. I have been in nursing since Moses was in the cradle and in the home health and hospice field almost exclusively (a few side trips - two years in cardiac at UNC Chapel Hill when I first moved here because I had to learn the roads lol) for the past 20 years, and I have been turning down management opportunities for at least ten. In my field, going into management would mean a significant increase in stress and an actual decrease in pay. Middle level management almost invariably makes less because of the time demands put on them while they are on salary - I on the other hand make significant overtime when things get stressed at work lol. For me, avoiding that route has given me time to work with animal rescue and animal welfare organizations, develop my Reiki (and I am currently working on opportunities to do Reiki with aimals), belong to the Holistic Nurses Association, work on my painting and participate in the local arts council. I would NEVER have time to do all of that in management! I can take my state retirement at 62 if I chose and I am looking at one of those avenues for a second career instead of staying in nursing until I am 65, although I am sure it would be a pay cut

I just keep wishing I would win Lotto and have to deal with all of those choices, but I can never remember to buy a ticket! lol

JanetStart the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

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