Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome: Web therapy 'can help'

[Guest guest]

,

Permission granted to forward my remarks. One thing to note has been the

supportive and positive information about behavioral and attitudinal change

following Becky's report on Maxine Aston's two-day workshop. It's important to

recognize that Maxine focuses on behavioral change first, which is the

" alternative twist " to the usual CBT approach of looking at mentation first.

Read her workbook. It focuses on behavior change first, without insisting that

the adult partner adopts all of the reasons for changing. That's also where I

draw the line between what works for adolescents and what works for adults. It

IS possible to effect a processing change in the way many adolescents think by

working directly on what I'd crudely call the information-gathering stages of

problem-solving. While adults are likely more efficient and comprehensive in the

way they gather information or use complex, multi-sourced information to solve

problems, children and adolescents don't have that experiential base built up

yet, so it's apparently easier to do a " mind opening " process with them first to

increase their capacity to appreciate perspective-taking. If you read

-Winner's lengthy essay that she has on her website, you'd realize that

even a " breakthrough in social communication specialist " has a very rigid and

moralistic attitude about children and adolescents she and her colleague insist

won't change and won't benefit from her approach. Wrong Wrong Wrong, and that's

what pisses me off about her pandering to lazy public school teachers and

special services providers for children in special education who just LOVE to

have excuses to not try working with difficult students.

Unfortunately, that attitude translates immediately to supporting stereotypes

about throw-away adults in the real world of adulthood.

Getting back to changing behavior first...

Once adults fall into certain patterns of perceiving the world, it's usually far

more difficult for them to first respond to efforts by others to have them " see

things differently. " What does work -- often far more effectively -- is the

effect of deliberately modified or new behavior on the way adults think. If you

substitute effective, efficient behavioral change first and it generates a good

response not only from others but also through feedback provides " goodies " to

the person whose actual behavior has changed, then the short-hand approach to

solving other, related problems, becomes easier for the adult to adopt, simply

because the " reward " is experienced as more immediate. Remember that one of the

essential mantras in behavioral work is to have the individual make connections

between acts and consequences. Isn't it better to start the " try it " approach

first, knowing that attitude formation closely follows the consequences,

whatever those consequences are? If you hyperfocus first on what you'd want the

person's thoughts to be following a behavior change, you're looking absolutely

backwards at the way adults learn. Why base an entire " therapy approach " on

intellection that comes straight from an eighteenth century approach to human

motivation. Has nothing been learned over the past three centuries?

Because adults have more things on their mind, and more roles they're involved

in, they don't have the luxury of time often afforded children and adolescents

to learn. Adults are expected to be more practical in their approach to

problem-solving -- something induced by having built up a substantial mental

library of resource information based upon experience in DOING, not just in

thinking. For relatively simple issues and problems, adults are expected to

change their behavior first when informed or shown how inefficient or

inappropriate their prior behavioral and action-based responses have been, and

since adults generally recognize the value of being accepted and appreciated by

others, they shorten the connection between making changes in what they do to

the positive realization that their own change in behavior or action has led to

positive feedback from others.

If you follow " classic " cognitive behavioral therapy theory, Beck and his

daughter, who still heads the Beck Institute affiliated with the University of

Pittsburgh Medical School, use a psycho-educational approach first which then

leads to behavior change. Indeed, Gauss, whose book on autism and CBT

remains the only major publication on CBT and autism that's comprehensive,

admits that working intensively with adults via the traditional " change their

thinking first; behavior will follow " is time-consuming. Furthermore, there is

an implicit admission that unless the individual is involved in comprehensive,

intense sessions with a CBT therapist, change will be very slow to occur. I

spoke with Judith Beck a couple of years ago when CBT was mentioned as something

that might be helpful for a person (the NY subway train fanatic) involved in

addictive, problematic behavior, and from her, directly, I learned that neither

she nor the Beck Institute has had anything to do with AS adults. Incidentally,

most likely realizing they would not receive the imprimatur of the Beck

Institute, everyone who's written about CBT and AS has been careful to state

that they MODIFY their approach. Well, if you have to modify an approach, to

what extent does your " modification " depart from the classic, approved model,

and at what length of distance from the original can you continue to call what

you're doing THAT classical approach?

For most practitioners, there's little interest in continuing the regular kind

of " return to the font of wisdom " at the Beck Institute that's demanded of the

founder (and his successor) of CBT. This is the reason why folks learn a little

bit about CBT, and then almost immediately depart from its rigidity -- primarily

because it's so unaffordable -- and incorporate other therapeutic techniques

when working with children, adolescents, and adults. One of those techniques

that does, indeed, work for adults is brief but precise skills coaching, where

the individual seeks to learn specific skills (read this as: I know I need to

change my behavior)and will have nothing to do with all the " getting to know

you; learning to say goodbye " claptrap required by traditional therapists.

Well.

Adults have neither the time nor the money for the " pure " CBT approach. Time,

because our lives are busy with the day to day business of living out many more

roles -- most simultaneously -- and being responsible for and to others in ways

different than children and adolescents. Secondly, adults don't have the money

to engage in " mind game " therapy, which CBT, practiced classically like most

other traditional psychotherapy, certainly is. That, incidentally, is why most

adults who've been subject to years of traditional talk-based therapy report

that it's ineffective, and actually can make matters worse because of the very

dynamics of therapy that require a period of time settling in with a therapist,

going through the therapeutic regime, and then gradually disconnecting from the

therapist.

Sorry. I believe all of the preparatory stuff as well as the termination stuff

is for the benefit of the therapist NOT the patient/client, and knowledgeable

and frank therapists will admit this if you actually button-hole them on this

aspect of traditional counseling.

What a waste of time and scarce resources. Also, for AS folks who have had even

one bad experience at the hands of an inept therapist, this poisons their

willingness to try again with someone else. That's because of all-or-nothing

thinking.

Why not look at the way adults learn effectively and efficiently, rather than

merely how they express their thoughts, and approach the effects of how adults

act and how their assuming responsibility for their own behavior actually works

in the real world? For the moment, forget about having the adult " admit " their

problem-solving or way of thinking is inefficient or just plain wrong. If you

focus on mere logic, a linear-thinking adult will defend that process mightily,

becoming defensive, closing down, or otherwise engaging in perfectly expected

behavior which we then label as " stubborn " or reactive. To get away from the

kind of moralistic judgmentalism that follows the " I KNOW better " approach of

most therapists and well-intentioned amateurs, why not look first at people

whose behavior and actions are what is desired first? The more one " does "

something that works, the more one is inclined to drop inefficient, ineffective

patterns of behavior, and gradually adopt a mind-set that comes from the goodies

that acting and behaving appropriately generate in others and in one's own brain

(good stuff equals recognition that endorphins have begun to flow more easily

from recently-practised changed behavior).

If you look at some of the autobiographical material written by AS adults

writing about adult relationships who have actually changed their behavior and

their approaches to communication and real-life day-to-day problem solving,

you'll notice that they all stress " Aw, what the hell, I'll try acting

differently first, or at least go through the motions " approach. It's that kind

of attitude that leads more efficiently to a real change in their mind-set and

mental health over time, but not instantaneously. When an adult whose behavior

and actions have changed has enough mileage with those new behaviors and

actions, then and only then is what they say believable to them because they've

actually changed, and haven't just " thought about it " enough times that they can

see a clear relationship between their act (change) and its consequences (good

stuff happening).

Doing first rather than thinking first changes people. Thinking doesn't

necessarily involve an idealized kind of change, and in fact, it's where many of

us remain stuck. If we'd be as kind to ourselves by accepting the concept of

" good enough for the purpose intended, " we'd all do much better. This means we

have to have mantras, while learning to change, that support making progress,

not being perfect.

We can retain " perfection " for the things that don't matter as much to others.

Perfection in those areas then doesn't have to involve a spill-over or " always

polish any piece of fruit before one eats it " attitude in common, everyday

tasks, or common, every-day communication. Previously resisted tasks become

easier to perform. The change in mind-set is more likely to be gradual, and even

if it doesn't happen, the importance the AS individual attaches to always

attuning one's mind-set to one's actions gradually DOES diminish, because AS

individuals change, like it or not, and they'll ordinarily change in directions

that are more positive and accepting of differences in others' perspectives

first, and often their own perspective a bit later.

That's because individuals generally put more of a protective shield around what

they're willing to think about themselves, but know they generally have to " act

as if I agree to XY or Z " when around others.

Nuff said.

N. Meyer

Chronic fatigue syndrome: Web

> therapy 'can help'

>

>

>

> For whoever finds this interesting:

>

> Chronic fatigue syndrome: Web therapy 'can help'

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17209795

>

> Anoush

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

> " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are

like a symphony.

>Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

>It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

>We all contribute to the song of life. "

> ...Sondra

>

> We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

>

> ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

>Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

> When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

> ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com

>

[Guest guest]

> If you look at some of the autobiographical material written by AS adults

writing about adult relationships who have actually changed their behavior and

their approaches to communication and real-life day-to-day problem solving,

you'll notice that they all stress " Aw, what the hell, I'll try acting

differently first, or at least go through the motions " approach. It's that kind

of attitude that leads more efficiently to a real change in their mind-set and

mental health over time, but not instantaneously. When an adult whose behavior

and actions have changed has enough mileage with those new behaviors and

actions, then and only then is what they say believable to them because they've

actually changed, and haven't just " thought about it " enough times that they can

see a clear relationship between their act (change) and its consequences (good

stuff happening).

I agree with you, . Very good points here.

What about that segment of the Aspie population that refuses to change a

behavior because it doesn't make sense to them? For them, " thinking "

must precede " behavior " . How would you approach this (often stubborn)

group?

> Doing first rather than thinking first changes people. Thinking doesn't

necessarily involve an idealized kind of change, and in fact, it's where many of

us remain stuck. If we'd be as kind to ourselves by accepting the concept of

" good enough for the purpose intended, " we'd all do much better. This means we

have to have mantras, while learning to change, that support making progress,

not being perfect.

Good advice, .

Best,

~CJ

[Guest guest]

Many, many thanks for your very wise insight.

I have only known about AS and my own condition for little over a year and I

have been desperately seeking ways to address my behaviour and how I

unintentionally affect and hurt those closest to me.

Your post makes total sense to me and some of your views regarding adults match

those that I have been trying to put across to my wife for some time. Your words

get the message across far better than my own.

Regards

Steve

>

> ,

>

> Permission granted to forward my remarks. One thing to note has been the

supportive and positive information about behavioral and attitudinal change

following Becky's report on Maxine Aston's two-day workshop. It's important to

recognize that Maxine focuses on behavioral change first, which is the

" alternative twist " to the usual CBT approach of looking at mentation first.

Read her workbook. It focuses on behavior change first, without insisting that

the adult partner adopts all of the reasons for changing. That's also where I

draw the line between what works for adolescents and what works for adults. It

IS possible to effect a processing change in the way many adolescents think by

working directly on what I'd crudely call the information-gathering stages of

problem-solving. While adults are likely more efficient and comprehensive in the

way they gather information or use complex, multi-sourced information to solve

problems, children and adolescents don't have that experiential base built up

yet, so it's apparently easier to do a " mind opening " process with them first to

increase their capacity to appreciate perspective-taking. If you read

-Winner's lengthy essay that she has on her website, you'd realize that

even a " breakthrough in social communication specialist " has a very rigid and

moralistic attitude about children and adolescents she and her colleague insist

won't change and won't benefit from her approach. Wrong Wrong Wrong, and that's

what pisses me off about her pandering to lazy public school teachers and

special services providers for children in special education who just LOVE to

have excuses to not try working with difficult students.

>

> Unfortunately, that attitude translates immediately to supporting stereotypes

about throw-away adults in the real world of adulthood.

>

> Getting back to changing behavior first...

>

> Once adults fall into certain patterns of perceiving the world, it's usually

far more difficult for them to first respond to efforts by others to have them

" see things differently. " What does work -- often far more effectively -- is the

effect of deliberately modified or new behavior on the way adults think. If you

substitute effective, efficient behavioral change first and it generates a good

response not only from others but also through feedback provides " goodies " to

the person whose actual behavior has changed, then the short-hand approach to

solving other, related problems, becomes easier for the adult to adopt, simply

because the " reward " is experienced as more immediate. Remember that one of the

essential mantras in behavioral work is to have the individual make connections

between acts and consequences. Isn't it better to start the " try it " approach

first, knowing that attitude formation closely follows the consequences,

whatever those consequences are? If you hyperfocus first on what you'd want the

person's thoughts to be following a behavior change, you're looking absolutely

backwards at the way adults learn. Why base an entire " therapy approach " on

intellection that comes straight from an eighteenth century approach to human

motivation. Has nothing been learned over the past three centuries?

>

> Because adults have more things on their mind, and more roles they're involved

in, they don't have the luxury of time often afforded children and adolescents

to learn. Adults are expected to be more practical in their approach to

problem-solving -- something induced by having built up a substantial mental

library of resource information based upon experience in DOING, not just in

thinking. For relatively simple issues and problems, adults are expected to

change their behavior first when informed or shown how inefficient or

inappropriate their prior behavioral and action-based responses have been, and

since adults generally recognize the value of being accepted and appreciated by

others, they shorten the connection between making changes in what they do to

the positive realization that their own change in behavior or action has led to

positive feedback from others.

>

> If you follow " classic " cognitive behavioral therapy theory, Beck and

his daughter, who still heads the Beck Institute affiliated with the University

of Pittsburgh Medical School, use a psycho-educational approach first which then

leads to behavior change. Indeed, Gauss, whose book on autism and CBT

remains the only major publication on CBT and autism that's comprehensive,

admits that working intensively with adults via the traditional " change their

thinking first; behavior will follow " is time-consuming. Furthermore, there is

an implicit admission that unless the individual is involved in comprehensive,

intense sessions with a CBT therapist, change will be very slow to occur. I

spoke with Judith Beck a couple of years ago when CBT was mentioned as something

that might be helpful for a person (the NY subway train fanatic) involved in

addictive, problematic behavior, and from her, directly, I learned that neither

she nor the Beck Institute has had anything to do with AS adults. Incidentally,

most likely realizing they would not receive the imprimatur of the Beck

Institute, everyone who's written about CBT and AS has been careful to state

that they MODIFY their approach. Well, if you have to modify an approach, to

what extent does your " modification " depart from the classic, approved model,

and at what length of distance from the original can you continue to call what

you're doing THAT classical approach?

>

> For most practitioners, there's little interest in continuing the regular kind

of " return to the font of wisdom " at the Beck Institute that's demanded of the

founder (and his successor) of CBT. This is the reason why folks learn a little

bit about CBT, and then almost immediately depart from its rigidity -- primarily

because it's so unaffordable -- and incorporate other therapeutic techniques

when working with children, adolescents, and adults. One of those techniques

that does, indeed, work for adults is brief but precise skills coaching, where

the individual seeks to learn specific skills (read this as: I know I need to

change my behavior)and will have nothing to do with all the " getting to know

you; learning to say goodbye " claptrap required by traditional therapists.

>

> Well.

>

> Adults have neither the time nor the money for the " pure " CBT approach. Time,

because our lives are busy with the day to day business of living out many more

roles -- most simultaneously -- and being responsible for and to others in ways

different than children and adolescents. Secondly, adults don't have the money

to engage in " mind game " therapy, which CBT, practiced classically like most

other traditional psychotherapy, certainly is. That, incidentally, is why most

adults who've been subject to years of traditional talk-based therapy report

that it's ineffective, and actually can make matters worse because of the very

dynamics of therapy that require a period of time settling in with a therapist,

going through the therapeutic regime, and then gradually disconnecting from the

therapist.

>

> Sorry. I believe all of the preparatory stuff as well as the termination stuff

is for the benefit of the therapist NOT the patient/client, and knowledgeable

and frank therapists will admit this if you actually button-hole them on this

aspect of traditional counseling.

>

> What a waste of time and scarce resources. Also, for AS folks who have had

even one bad experience at the hands of an inept therapist, this poisons their

willingness to try again with someone else. That's because of all-or-nothing

thinking.

>

> Why not look at the way adults learn effectively and efficiently, rather than

merely how they express their thoughts, and approach the effects of how adults

act and how their assuming responsibility for their own behavior actually works

in the real world? For the moment, forget about having the adult " admit " their

problem-solving or way of thinking is inefficient or just plain wrong. If you

focus on mere logic, a linear-thinking adult will defend that process mightily,

becoming defensive, closing down, or otherwise engaging in perfectly expected

behavior which we then label as " stubborn " or reactive. To get away from the

kind of moralistic judgmentalism that follows the " I KNOW better " approach of

most therapists and well-intentioned amateurs, why not look first at people

whose behavior and actions are what is desired first? The more one " does "

something that works, the more one is inclined to drop inefficient, ineffective

patterns of behavior, and gradually adopt a mind-set that comes from the goodies

that acting and behaving appropriately generate in others and in one's own brain

(good stuff equals recognition that endorphins have begun to flow more easily

from recently-practised changed behavior).

>

> If you look at some of the autobiographical material written by AS adults

writing about adult relationships who have actually changed their behavior and

their approaches to communication and real-life day-to-day problem solving,

you'll notice that they all stress " Aw, what the hell, I'll try acting

differently first, or at least go through the motions " approach. It's that kind

of attitude that leads more efficiently to a real change in their mind-set and

mental health over time, but not instantaneously. When an adult whose behavior

and actions have changed has enough mileage with those new behaviors and

actions, then and only then is what they say believable to them because they've

actually changed, and haven't just " thought about it " enough times that they can

see a clear relationship between their act (change) and its consequences (good

stuff happening).

>

> Doing first rather than thinking first changes people. Thinking doesn't

necessarily involve an idealized kind of change, and in fact, it's where many of

us remain stuck. If we'd be as kind to ourselves by accepting the concept of

" good enough for the purpose intended, " we'd all do much better. This means we

have to have mantras, while learning to change, that support making progress,

not being perfect.

>

> We can retain " perfection " for the things that don't matter as much to others.

Perfection in those areas then doesn't have to involve a spill-over or " always

polish any piece of fruit before one eats it " attitude in common, everyday

tasks, or common, every-day communication. Previously resisted tasks become

easier to perform. The change in mind-set is more likely to be gradual, and even

if it doesn't happen, the importance the AS individual attaches to always

attuning one's mind-set to one's actions gradually DOES diminish, because AS

individuals change, like it or not, and they'll ordinarily change in directions

that are more positive and accepting of differences in others' perspectives

first, and often their own perspective a bit later.

>

> That's because individuals generally put more of a protective shield around

what they're willing to think about themselves, but know they generally have to

" act as if I agree to XY or Z " when around others.

>

> Nuff said.

>

> N. Meyer

>

>

> Chronic fatigue syndrome: Web

> > therapy 'can help'

> >

> >

> >

> > For whoever finds this interesting:

> >

> > Chronic fatigue syndrome: Web therapy 'can help'

> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17209795

> >

> > Anoush

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------

> >

> > " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we

are like a symphony.

> >Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

> >It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

> >We all contribute to the song of life. "

> > ...Sondra

> >

> > We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

> >

> > ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

> >Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> > Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

> > When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

> > http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

> > ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> > http://www.aspires-relationships.com

> >

[Guest guest]

CJ... You asked: What about that segment of the Aspie population that refuses to change a behavior because it doesn't make sense to them? For them, "thinking" must precede "behavior". How would you approach this (often stubborn) group?

A quick answer is "tough nuggies." Life isn't fair.

A more nuanced answer...

This "group" tends to be pretty inefficient practical problem-solvers because they have difficulty understanding consequences, and usually always have had that difficulty. Communication and getting along with people involves figuring out the adult rules for discourse and behavior. Once shown them, the consequences of "not getting them most of the time" should also be wheeled out.

For such folks, I'd say "try anything that works," but the emphasis here is "works." If all that ends up happening is more mental masturbation by the logical ueber-freak and there's nothing else inducing one to stick with the guy or gal, I'd say the likelihood of a rewarding relationship, long-term, is pretty low. There are some folks who don't want to change, but this doesn't mean they're incapable of change. What it means, really, is that adults have choices, unlike children. If there's more negative than positive in the separate calculus of what both partners report about their relationship, those numbers or that toting up of "good things" and "bad things" really should be a wake-up call. And it needn't be heeded with the same degree of criticality by the one who truly doesn't get it. It's enough that one partner "gets it."

We come into the world alone; as adults, we live life in the company of others (or the lack of their company for the rare successful hermit); we also leave the world alone. Who gets to decide how much "together aloneness" there is to be is an adult decision that can and should be made by each person in the relationship. For each individual's mental and physical health. The answer to that question isn't determined by fate because fatalism invariably involves an abandonment of the notion of personal choice and taking responsibility for one's inaction as well as one's action.

There's real choice involved. Perhaps the party about to be left behind will blame the "leaver," but there you are. What may have been a slight drag becomes a "braking effect" and ultimately can become a breaking effect. The one thing that's remained the same under such circumstances is that the individual putting on the drag generally lookis about for at external causes and others to blame for his/her unpleasant circumstances.

Unlike kiddos, adults are empowered by every culture to determine not only their present but their future and are expected to make all kinds of choices. So, if one wishes to continue an uneven, less than adequately reciprocal adult relationship, ultimately one should look at who's the decider. But also look at the cost. As for who is the decider, It sure isn't the other person. I'm not getting into the "OH, grow up!" stuff or anything like that. Name calling and constantly coming to the rescue of one's partner really doesn't help in the long run. Both exercises are ennervating. But...calling the game surely does help. At least it does for the partner who favors keeping one's lights on when having to drive in the fog.

If you project out the long run to the "out to the pasture time of retirement and advanced old age," maybe now's the time to make that decision about just how much alone one can really AFFORD to be, not only then, but on the way to "then." Just how much work it takes to get to a comfortable "here place" varies with each relationship. But the differential in contributions to that comfort must be kept in mind, because as we age, those differentials may not only grow greater OR they may not. But shift they will. Furthermore, it's important to recognize that the amount of work in maintaining a comfort level does increase as one ages. For everyone. To ignore this fact won't make it go away. Engaging in an objective re-calculation of the costs and the benefits one derives from the relationship every now and then is very grounding.

And very necessary. Nuthin' stays the same. Change -- like it or not --is always happening.

N. Meyer Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome: Web therapy 'can help' > > > > >> If you look at some of the autobiographical material written by AS adults writing about adult relationships who have actually changed their behavior and their approaches to communication and real-life day-to-day problem solving, you'll notice that they all stress "Aw, what the hell, I'll try acting differently first, or at least go through the motions" approach. It's that kind of attitude that leads more efficiently to a real change in their mind-set and mental health over time, but not instantaneously. When an adult whose behavior and actions have changed has enough mileage with those new behaviors and actions, then and only then is what they say believable to them because they've actually changed, and haven't just "thought about it" enough times that they can see a clear relationship between their act (change) and its consequences (good stuff happening). > > >I agree with you, . Very good points here. > >What about that segment of the Aspie population that refuses to change a >behavior because it doesn't make sense to them? For them, "thinking" >must precede "behavior". How would you approach this (often stubborn) >group? > > > >> Doing first rather than thinking first changes people. Thinking doesn't necessarily involve an idealized kind of change, and in fact, it's where many of us remain stuck. If we'd be as kind to ourselves by accepting the concept of "good enough for the purpose intended," we'd all do much better. This means we have to have mantras, while learning to change, that support making progress, not being perfect. > >Good advice, . > >Best, >~CJ > > > > >------------------------------------ > > "We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are like a symphony. >Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony >It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial. >We all contribute to the song of life." > ...Sondra > > We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference. > > ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list. >Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author. > Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission. > When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at: > http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm > ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER > http://www.aspires-relationships.com >