Re: herbal powders

March 23, 2012

Giving herb powders in any form at all, whether emusified**, which strictly speaking is very unlikely, or not, and including capsules, relies on the brief pass through the highly varied pH and enzymes of the digestive system to extract their 'activity'. The reason herbalists started using tinctures several hundred years ago is not only that maceration in a mixture of ethanol and water for weeks extracts a far wider and more effective range of activity than a most simple digestive passes but, also that these are indeed emulsions which can pass intact though the digestive epithelial barrier into blood stream. Of course it's clear that some herbs are activated by the digestive system, but most (perhaps all of the top ten) of the classical " safe herbs " , on which western herbal medicine is founded, are extremely inactive as unextracted comminuted solids.

**One characteristic of a true emulsion is that it passes through a membrane such as a filter paper, Herbal powders will not in any form and so one wonders if we are talking emulsions or pastes, which sometimes look like them?

I used to make herbal pills from powders with a pillmaker and would mix the herbs with some honey and some kelp powder to aid cohesion, roll them out like pastry dough to a thickness and then cut them out with the tool, and let them dry a bit. but the honey acts as a preservative and as long as they were taken soon, and not forgotten somewhere, and kept sealed in fridge or in the cool, I never had a problem. Alternatively you can instruct patient's to mix them themselves into a " dough ball " and then when time comes to take their dose, to pinch off a pea sized or larger amount which you'd have to work out previously equivalences to a capsule. Usually I would say 2 " peas " for one capsule. This however will depend on the consistency, density of the powder.

Or you can sell them the capsules and they can capsule their own, while watching tv etc. Most won't want to do this of course, but some might.

Vicki Pitman

URHP

-- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,

Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,

Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@...

Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

March 24, 2012

Hello , This is well recognised in Chinese medicine and the 'powders' I use are in fact 'granules' a concentrated 5:1 extract which is the herb decocted under very tightly controlled conditions 5 times first into the same water with volatile oils captured in the process. Once a thick extract forms the volatile oils are added back in, the whole thing cooled then combined with some of it's own starch and freeze dried from a very high tower, becoming granules at the bottom.Therefore it's already an extract but in a 'powder' like format. I actually find that capsules allow a nice gradual release of herbs and that two lots of 2-3 a day with water works well for most.However these extracts do not compare to the 'immediate' dynamic type activity seen with traditional decoctions. So yes it's the best compromise for a busy western lifestyle. That said for some clients I do insist on raw decocted herbs as their condition demands it.Yeah no doubt I expect either decoction or tincture to be doing it's stuff within 20-30 minutes. It's also cleared faster too, capsules allow more gradual release.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 Mar 2012, at 14:43, Chenery wrote:

Giving herb powders in any form at all, whether emusified**, which strictly speaking is very unlikely, or not, and including capsules, relies on the brief pass through the highly varied pH and enzymes of the digestive system to extract their 'activity'. The reason herbalists started using tinctures several hundred years ago is not only that maceration in a mixture of ethanol and water for weeks extracts a far wider and more effective range of activity than a most simple digestive passes but, also that these are indeed emulsions which can pass intact though the digestive epithelial barrier into blood stream. Of course it's clear that some herbs are activated by the digestive system, but most (perhaps all of the top ten) of the classical "safe herbs", on which western herbal medicine is founded, are extremely inactive as unextracted comminuted solids.

**One characteristic of a true emulsion is that it passes through a membrane such as a filter paper, Herbal powders will not in any form and so one wonders if we are talking emulsions or pastes, which sometimes look like them?

I used to make herbal pills from powders with a pillmaker and would mix the herbs with some honey and some kelp powder to aid cohesion, roll them out like pastry dough to a thickness and then cut them out with the tool, and let them dry a bit. but the honey acts as a preservative and as long as they were taken soon, and not forgotten somewhere, and kept sealed in fridge or in the cool, I never had a problem. Alternatively you can instruct patient's to mix them themselves into a "dough ball" and then when time comes to take their dose, to pinch off a pea sized or larger amount which you'd have to work out previously equivalences to a capsule. Usually I would say 2 "peas" for one capsule. This however will depend on the consistency, density of the powder.

Or you can sell them the capsules and they can capsule their own, while watching tv etc. Most won't want to do this of course, but some might.

Vicki Pitman

URHP

-- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,

Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,

Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@...

Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

March 24, 2012

The word " Powders " might refer to either granulated dried herbs or indeed dried extracts. Your concentrated (standardised?) extracts should of course be entirely soluble, if they were solutions before they were dried.

Hello , This is well recognised in Chinese medicine and the 'powders' I use are in fact 'granules' a concentrated 5:1 extract which is the herb decocted under very tightly controlled conditions 5 times first into the same water with volatile oils captured in the process. Once a thick extract forms the volatile oils are added back in, the whole thing cooled then combined with some of it's own starch and freeze dried from a very high tower, becoming granules at the bottom.

Therefore it's already an extract but in a 'powder' like format. I actually find that capsules allow a nice gradual release of herbs and that two lots of 2-3 a day with water works well for most.

However these extracts do not compare to the 'immediate' dynamic type activity seen with traditional decoctions. So yes it's the best compromise for a busy western lifestyle. That said for some clients I do insist on raw decocted herbs as their condition demands it.

Yeah no doubt I expect either decoction or tincture to be doing it's stuff within 20-30 minutes. It's also cleared faster too, capsules allow more gradual release.Lorraine

Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392

Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 Mar 2012, at 14:43, Chenery wrote:

Giving herb powders in any form at all, whether emusified**, which strictly speaking is very unlikely, or not, and including capsules, relies on the brief pass through the highly varied pH and enzymes of the digestive system to extract their 'activity'. The reason herbalists started using tinctures several hundred years ago is not only that maceration in a mixture of ethanol and water for weeks extracts a far wider and more effective range of activity than a most simple digestive passes but, also that these are indeed emulsions which can pass intact though the digestive epithelial barrier into blood stream. Of course it's clear that some herbs are activated by the digestive system, but most (perhaps all of the top ten) of the classical " safe herbs " , on which western herbal medicine is founded, are extremely inactive as unextracted comminuted solids.

**One characteristic of a true emulsion is that it passes through a membrane such as a filter paper, Herbal powders will not in any form and so one wonders if we are talking emulsions or pastes, which sometimes look like them?

I used to make herbal pills from powders with a pillmaker and would mix the herbs with some honey and some kelp powder to aid cohesion, roll them out like pastry dough to a thickness and then cut them out with the tool, and let them dry a bit. but the honey acts as a preservative and as long as they were taken soon, and not forgotten somewhere, and kept sealed in fridge or in the cool, I never had a problem. Alternatively you can instruct patient's to mix them themselves into a " dough ball " and then when time comes to take their dose, to pinch off a pea sized or larger amount which you'd have to work out previously equivalences to a capsule. Usually I would say 2 " peas " for one capsule. This however will depend on the consistency, density of the powder.

Or you can sell them the capsules and they can capsule their own, while watching tv etc. Most won't want to do this of course, but some might.

Vicki Pitman

URHP

-- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,

Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,

Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@...

Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

-- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,

Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,

Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@...

Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

March 24, 2012

Interesting discussion.Some powders do seem to be active. Ulmus, obviously, because it's acting on the gut wall. Turmeric is also used effectively in powder form, I believe, by many 3rd world peoples. I was told by a friend from Ethiopia that it was one of her mothers favourite remedies, applied in various ways.I think that active or not is going to depend on the digestive efficiency of the patient, which is a a primary target fro herbal treatment, and the desired action. If digestive, others may be active similarly to Ulmus, also we were taught that it was possible to elicit soothing or stimulating actions in other organ systems reflexly via the gut, as it was posited that active ingredients were not absorbed (from tinctures) eg Althea, and various saponin containing herbs.Curiouser and curiouser.Sally OwenThe word "Powders" might refer to either granulated dried herbs or indeed dried extracts. Your concentrated (standardised?) extracts should of course be entirely soluble, if they were solutions before they were dried. Hello , This is well recognised in Chinese medicine and the 'powders' I use are in fact 'granules' a concentrated 5:1 extract which is the herb decocted under very tightly controlled conditions 5 times first into the same water with volatile oils captured in the process. Once a thick extract forms the volatile oils are added back in, the whole thing cooled then combined with some of it's own starch and freeze dried from a very high tower, becoming granules at the bottom.Therefore it's already an extract but in a 'powder' like format. I actually find that capsules allow a nice gradual release of herbs and that two lots of 2-3 a day with water works well for most.However these extracts do not compare to the 'immediate' dynamic type activity seen with traditional decoctions. So yes it's the best compromise for a busy western lifestyle. That said for some clients I do insist on raw decocted herbs as their condition demands it.Yeah no doubt I expect either decoction or tincture to be doing it's stuff within 20-30 minutes. It's also cleared faster too, capsules allow more gradual release.Lorraine Lorraine Hodgkinson MRCHMHERBS AND HELPERS6, Butts Fold, Cockermouth,Cumbria, CA13 9HY. UK.Tel: +44 (0) 1900 826392Mobile: 07761 489838 (O2)www.herbalmedicineuk.comOn 23 Mar 2012, at 14:43, Chenery wrote: Giving herb powders in any form at all, whether emusified**, which strictly speaking is very unlikely, or not, and including capsules, relies on the brief pass through the highly varied pH and enzymes of the digestive system to extract their 'activity'. The reason herbalists started using tinctures several hundred years ago is not only that maceration in a mixture of ethanol and water for weeks extracts a far wider and more effective range of activity than a most simple digestive passes but, also that these are indeed emulsions which can pass intact though the digestive epithelial barrier into blood stream. Of course it's clear that some herbs are activated by the digestive system, but most (perhaps all of the top ten) of the classical "safe herbs", on which western herbal medicine is founded, are extremely inactive as unextracted comminuted solids.**One characteristic of a true emulsion is that it passes through a membrane such as a filter paper, Herbal powders will not in any form and so one wonders if we are talking emulsions or pastes, which sometimes look like them? I used to make herbal pills from powders with a pillmaker and would mix the herbs with some honey and some kelp powder to aid cohesion, roll them out like pastry dough to a thickness and then cut them out with the tool, and let them dry a bit. but the honey acts as a preservative and as long as they were taken soon, and not forgotten somewhere, and kept sealed in fridge or in the cool, I never had a problem. Alternatively you can instruct patient's to mix them themselves into a "dough ball" and then when time comes to take their dose, to pinch off a pea sized or larger amount which you'd have to work out previously equivalences to a capsule. Usually I would say 2 "peas" for one capsule. This however will depend on the consistency, density of the powder. Or you can sell them the capsules and they can capsule their own, while watching tv etc. Most won't want to do this of course, but some might.Vicki PitmanURHP-- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@...Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.-- Chenery MNIMH MCPP MSB QPDirector, Rutland Biodynamics Ltd.,Organic Medicinal Herb Growers andDepartment of Health (MHRA) Licensed Medicines Manufacturer,Town Park Farm, , Rutland, LE15 8DG, UKEmail: pc@...Website: www.rutlandbio.comConfidentiality: This e-mail and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this e-mail and highlight the error. Security Warning: Please note that this e-mail has been created in the knowledge that Internet e-mail is not a 100% secure communications medium. We advise that you understand and observe this lack of security when e-mailing us. Viruses: Although we have taken steps to ensure that this e-mail and attachments are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computing practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

March 25, 2012

Good points Sally! I completely omitted to mention topical activity (internal and external) - and reflex actions.

Interesting discussion.Some powders do seem to be active. Ulmus, obviously, because it's acting on the gut wall. Turmeric is also used effectively in powder form, I believe, by many 3rd world peoples. I was told by a friend from Ethiopia that it was one of her mothers favourite remedies, applied in various ways.

I think that active or not is going to depend on the digestive efficiency of the patient, which is a a primary target fro herbal treatment, and the desired action. If digestive, others may be active similarly to Ulmus, also we were taught that it was possible to elicit soothing or stimulating actions in other organ systems reflexly via the gut, as it was posited that active ingredients were not absorbed (from tinctures) eg Althea, and various saponin containing herbs.

Curiouser and curiouser.Sally Owen

The word " Powders " might refer to either granulated dried herbs or indeed dried extracts. Your concentrated (standardised?) extracts should of course be entirely soluble, if they were solutions before they were dried.

On 24 March 2012 09:40, Herbs and Helpers wrote: