Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post]

[Guest guest]

Hello Moana,

Thanks for your post, thanks for sharing the traits you were

seeing in your bf, and for explaining how temporarily throwing him out

led to his complete turnaround.

Some of those traits you describe do seem to match up with recognised AS

traits.

But one thing to bear in mind is that AS, unlike medical diseases,

isn't a condition one can easily identify using anything like the

equivalent of a swab test to give a clear result that says you've got it

or you haven't. For AS, a whole spectrum of different traits, each

with their own severity have to be integrated, and it's a measure of

the total value of this integral that determines whether an individual

is diagnosed AS or not. The presence of a few quirky traits on their

own doesn't constitute a positive diagnosis.

The corollary to this is that quite a few NTs exhibit some quirky traits

that are common to AS without those individuals being classified as AS

themselves.

It's great to hear that your " treatment " has led to a suppression of

those undesireable traits in your bf. Beware though, that it's quite

common for courting couples, when they become aware that some of their

habits are having a negative effect on the relationship with their

partner, to bend and suppress those habits for as long as it takes for

them to feel they've permanently hooked that partner. But then later,

maybe after they've married, they unbend and revert to their old bad

habits. This welcome temporary bending followed later by unwelcome

unbending isn't specific to AS though; it just depends on how

understanding and considerate and flexible the individuals are towards

their partner.

Somehow, but I don't really know how, there's a need to probe deeply

into partners' hearts and find out whether in their true inner nature,

those old bad habits are still lurking and waiting to resurface there.

Best of luck, anyway!

(diagnosed AS in 2009 at age 67)

----------------

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 16:57:56 -0000. Moana Ladoucer theunspecial wrote:

> Hello all, and thank you for welcoming me into this community.

>

> I apologize for the wall of text! This is my first post and I have something

of a breakthrough to communicate to all of you.

>

> I'm a 28 year old woman, a literature student at the PhD level in Montreal,

Canada. I'm currently in a relationship with a 29 year old man, a music &

programming graduate at the Master's level. We have always discussed and

suspected that he might have Asperger's, but until this day he remains

undiagnosed.

>

> We've had difficult times. Constant arguing, frustration on both parts. I

should mention that my boyfriend is not so deeply affected in social areas. He

understands and uses sarcasm, and after a few drinks he seems completely normal.

This adds to the " Cassandra syndrome " in that the friends I'm not as close to

find that Asperger's is a quick diagnosis. " Your boyfriend is perfectly normal, "

they say, " he jokes around with me all the time " . Well, he's not. He rarely ever

looks me in the eye, he answers odd things when I use expressions instead of

very literal language ( " Would you like to do this for me " vs. " Please do this

for me " yields VERY different answers... " Hm, let me think, no I don't think I

would like that, no " ), etc. I won't embark on a thorough list of his mannerisms

as I'm sure most of you know them all too well already.

>

> Anyway, my point is, we had a serious falling out lately. I told him to leave

the house despite him having nowhere to go and little money. He had been living

at my place, out of necessity but also out of love, for a while. But recently I

had been very unhappy and communicating this to him constantly, with little to

no change at all on his part. Eventually I decided that if he hadn't managed to

become independent of me, it wasn't my responsibility to baby him and keep him

in my house if I felt like the relationship wasn't bringing me anything good

anymore. And so he left the house and spent nights in coffee shops and youth

hostels for some days. I felt terrible about it, but I had to remember I wasn't

responsible for him, or for the choices he made that led him to not be able to

care for himself properly.

>

> This led to a complete turnaround. We kept communicating, and he accepted the

Asperger's home-diagnosis in a way he hadn't before. He expressed this as having

to accept that his thought process was atypical, and to realize that he wasn't

going to function so long as he was angry at other people for not functioning

the way he does. His former obsession with work, which left me feeling lonely

and nagging for a substantial relationship, has mutated into an awareness that

programming all the time made him into a " number cruncher " and not much else,

whereas he is also a rather creative creature - with a bachelor's in music

playing cello, and a lifelong hobby of creating electronic music. He realized

that doing nothing but work left little space for inspiration, and that his life

would be more efficient if he kept certain times in his life for other

activities, from leisure to cooking and cleaning with me.

>

> He has moved back in, but this time it isn't because I feel bad for him. It's

because I enjoy his company again. He has stopped fighting me about everything,

has started really hearing me out and trying to understand when I express my

feelings and frustrations. Myself, I have also been trying to communicate more

clearly, with literal language, and I interpret his sometimes odd behaviour less

as signs of him not caring for me, and more as symptoms of a neurological

condition. It hasn't been that long, but I know once he puts his mind to

something, he isn't likely to just let go. He's very obstinate when trying to

resolve a problem.

>

> So, this is my story of hope. It wasn't a formal diagnosis that led us here,

but the acceptance on both our parts that he has Aspie-like traits, and that I

will never see things the way he does.

>

> I hope this can inspire some of you struggling with this in your

relationships!

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we

are like a symphony.

> Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

> It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

> We all contribute to the song of life. "

> ...Sondra

>

> We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

>

> ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

> Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

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> ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Well said! I hope everyone is listening.

I would also add that after a recent reunion it would be very unwise to make a a

major commitment like a home purchase or having a child! It takes more than a

few months to permanently change a life habit. Under stress the tendency is to

unconsciously fall back upon old behaviors since they " worked " in the past,

albeit in a dysfunctional way. And you are correct, this is true for NT as well

as AS.

- Helen

>

> Hello Moana,

>

> Thanks for your post, thanks for sharing the traits you were

> seeing in your bf, and for explaining how temporarily throwing him out

> led to his complete turnaround.

>

> Some of those traits you describe do seem to match up with recognised AS

> traits.

>

> But one thing to bear in mind is that AS, unlike medical diseases,

> isn't a condition one can easily identify using anything like the

> equivalent of a swab test to give a clear result that says you've got it

> or you haven't. For AS, a whole spectrum of different traits, each

> with their own severity have to be integrated, and it's a measure of

> the total value of this integral that determines whether an individual

> is diagnosed AS or not. The presence of a few quirky traits on their

> own doesn't constitute a positive diagnosis.

>

> The corollary to this is that quite a few NTs exhibit some quirky traits

> that are common to AS without those individuals being classified as AS

> themselves.

>

> It's great to hear that your " treatment " has led to a suppression of

> those undesireable traits in your bf. Beware though, that it's quite

> common for courting couples, when they become aware that some of their

> habits are having a negative effect on the relationship with their

> partner, to bend and suppress those habits for as long as it takes for

> them to feel they've permanently hooked that partner. But then later,

> maybe after they've married, they unbend and revert to their old bad

> habits. This welcome temporary bending followed later by unwelcome

> unbending isn't specific to AS though; it just depends on how

> understanding and considerate and flexible the individuals are towards

> their partner.

>

> Somehow, but I don't really know how, there's a need to probe deeply

> into partners' hearts and find out whether in their true inner nature,

> those old bad habits are still lurking and waiting to resurface there.

>

> Best of luck, anyway!

>

>

> (diagnosed AS in 2009 at age 67)

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I would echo and Helen's points.

I went through something similar last year, and found that it was spectacular

how much my husband could change when he wanted to. The key there is wanting

to. He had long ago given up making any effort with the relationship, which is

what led to me throwing him out, after he gave up all forms of intimacy with me,

preferring an 'easier' use of porn, as this doesn't require actual interaction.

However I do think the key to our ongoing success now and in the future, is to

keep an eye on this bending and unbending. To recognise it as some form of fact

and something to be expected. Working with your partners motivation to

understand that it's not just temporary effort that's required, that it's long

term needs for you to remain in the relationship with them. This goes beyond

the tortuous repeated threats of breaking up, or throwing them out once in a

while to shake things up. This will just worsen the relationship, and cause

instability which is a nightmare for those with AS and can be extremely

distressing and confusing. You're right though, in coming to the realisation

that you are not responsible for him, that he is ultimately responsible.

It's a matter of respectfully (to yourself and to him) stating what your needs

and expectations are, and if these aren't met, then you are not going to want to

be in a relationship with him. It needs to be spelled out plainly, and you

shouldn't be afraid to have to regularly remind your partner, as when you don't

have a great theory of mind, it's easy to forget these sorts of things, in

favour of other distractions and priorities. Basically you need to protect your

own needs, because your partner, depending on how AS he is, is not always going

to remember your needs above his own. It's not meant out of a lack of care or

love, it's just easy for the AS mind to be distracted to other things that seem

more important. Whereas us NT's will be looking at it thinking 'what, how can

anything be more important than that!'. But trust me it's very easy, it's easy

enough for NT's to do it, and much more comfortable for AS folk to do this too.

Basically be prepared for things to unbend, unfold and veer back towards the bad

old days. You just need to be honest with your partner about your needs and not

be afraid to have to repeat yourself.

Take Care of eachother!

Becky

>

> Hello all, and thank you for welcoming me into this community.

>

> I apologize for the wall of text! This is my first post and I have something

of a breakthrough to communicate to all of you.

>

> I'm a 28 year old woman, a literature student at the PhD level in Montreal,

Canada. I'm currently in a relationship with a 29 year old man, a music &

programming graduate at the Master's level. We have always discussed and

suspected that he might have Asperger's, but until this day he remains

undiagnosed.

>

> We've had difficult times. Constant arguing, frustration on both parts. I

should mention that my boyfriend is not so deeply affected in social areas. He

understands and uses sarcasm, and after a few drinks he seems completely normal.

This adds to the " Cassandra syndrome " in that the friends I'm not as close to

find that Asperger's is a quick diagnosis. " Your boyfriend is perfectly normal, "

they say, " he jokes around with me all the time " . Well, he's not. He rarely ever

looks me in the eye, he answers odd things when I use expressions instead of

very literal language ( " Would you like to do this for me " vs. " Please do this

for me " yields VERY different answers... " Hm, let me think, no I don't think I

would like that, no " ), etc. I won't embark on a thorough list of his mannerisms

as I'm sure most of you know them all too well already.

>

> Anyway, my point is, we had a serious falling out lately. I told him to leave

the house despite him having nowhere to go and little money. He had been living

at my place, out of necessity but also out of love, for a while. But recently I

had been very unhappy and communicating this to him constantly, with little to

no change at all on his part. Eventually I decided that if he hadn't managed to

become independent of me, it wasn't my responsibility to baby him and keep him

in my house if I felt like the relationship wasn't bringing me anything good

anymore. And so he left the house and spent nights in coffee shops and youth

hostels for some days. I felt terrible about it, but I had to remember I wasn't

responsible for him, or for the choices he made that led him to not be able to

care for himself properly.

>

> This led to a complete turnaround. We kept communicating, and he accepted the

Asperger's home-diagnosis in a way he hadn't before. He expressed this as having

to accept that his thought process was atypical, and to realize that he wasn't

going to function so long as he was angry at other people for not functioning

the way he does. His former obsession with work, which left me feeling lonely

and nagging for a substantial relationship, has mutated into an awareness that

programming all the time made him into a " number cruncher " and not much else,

whereas he is also a rather creative creature - with a bachelor's in music

playing cello, and a lifelong hobby of creating electronic music. He realized

that doing nothing but work left little space for inspiration, and that his life

would be more efficient if he kept certain times in his life for other

activities, from leisure to cooking and cleaning with me.

>

> He has moved back in, but this time it isn't because I feel bad for him. It's

because I enjoy his company again. He has stopped fighting me about everything,

has started really hearing me out and trying to understand when I express my

feelings and frustrations. Myself, I have also been trying to communicate more

clearly, with literal language, and I interpret his sometimes odd behaviour less

as signs of him not caring for me, and more as symptoms of a neurological

condition. It hasn't been that long, but I know once he puts his mind to

something, he isn't likely to just let go. He's very obstinate when trying to

resolve a problem.

>

> So, this is my story of hope. It wasn't a formal diagnosis that led us here,

but the acceptance on both our parts that he has Aspie-like traits, and that I

will never see things the way he does.

>

> I hope this can inspire some of you struggling with this in your

relationships!

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jill,

I guess I am lucky that I was born with a lot of energy, and also, I am bipolar,

so I am always fizzing away, even on medication. However one thing that has

really helped for me is looking at the Cassandra stuff, not because I blame my

husband for 'hurting' me, or anything like that, but because it states a simple

fact - your partner has a disability. It won't change. Get over it. Either

you're going to stay and make the best of it, put up and shut up and let your

inner self fester, or get up and move on, if it doesn't suit you.

I love my Husband, and I spent a lot of time really thinking about what the good

things are that he brings into my life. And working to appreciate them more.

Also, I have friends that I have a good emotional bond with, who can do the

empathy thing. In fact one friend is a gay man, and we've become quite close,

like a sort of sibling relationship. Luckily, I tend to gravitate to men for

friendship, and Jon is the only guy I have had a relationship with, who hasn't

been threatened by this, so a lot of our set up is luck. Jon also recognises,

although doesn't really understand why, that I need close communication of

thoughts and feelings with people, so he does try to listen, although I can see

when he's at his upper limit. Also, he's open to me reminding him, as we've had

to sort of make a contract, for him to let me know when I am going off on a

bipolar swing (often he recognises it before I do) and I do the same when he's

starting to get distant again, and fold into himself. He's found that he's much

happier when he is more 'opened up', so that means that generally he's open to

being poked from time to time. I also prompt him a lot with good behaviours he

may want to try - like 'I love it when you suprise me with a lusty kiss on my

neck' or 'go to the supermarket quick - I have just seen my perfect easter egg

that I want you to get for me', or most recently 'burping beer in my face

accross the dinner table in a restaurant with family is NOT ACCEPTABLE

BEHAVIOUR!'

I have accepted that there is a parental element to my relationship with Jon,

and luckily I am cool with it, I like nurturing, and he seems to enjoy being

nurtured, now he realises what the dynamics are at play in our relationship.

I suppose, another thing is that I am not looking at it like he's broken and I

am not. Quite simply, either we're both broken, or we're just both extreme

personalities - I have way more emotions than the average person, and a great

intellectual mind which is always churning over. Whereas Jon has less than

average in feelings and emotional variations and has a quiet mind. Not that

he's incapable of intellectual thinking at all, he's very intelligent and

capable, but I guess he doesn't have the speed or clutter that I have in my

mind.

I could have walked away, and to be honest, I very nearly did, but I realised

how much I love Jon. We do have fab times together, silly times, and his

Aspergers seems to make him a little more naiive, and a little more gentle, and

very stable. And I love that so much about him.

I would suggest sitting down and really looking at why you are with your

partner. Are you feeling trapped, are you there for the money, or the kids, or

a million other reasons, but can't remember the original reason you entered a

relationship with him? It the relationship really going to work, regardless of

his condition, or are you with him out of guilt because he's 'disabled' in some

way.

It also depends largely on how motivated he is, and how receptive he is to

gentle poking, so long as he understands it's not nagging, but essential for you

being able to stay happy and well in the relationship, and that yes, he does

need to make effort if he wants you to stay around and actually be happy. I

find that if I say nothing, then Jon assumes I am fine, so I have to tell him

quite clearly if I am unhappy and why that is. I also try to include something

that he can do to support me, be that a hug, or just some practical help in

planning or something. Then I feel he is supporting me, and he has a pointer as

to what to do.

Also, the final thing is to really grasp the fact that Aspies just plain thing

really differently. They are a varied bunch and just like NTs there are some

nice ones and some horrid ones but overall, so long as your partner means well,

he will want you to be happy, but won't think that what he does affects your

happiness, because he genuinely to a greater or lesser extent doesn't get

affected much by other people's behaviour or feelings. He will assume naturally

that you are just like him, and it's down to you to keep reminding him.

Over time, it's almost become a jokey way of pointing it out, so I can easily

say to Jon 'woah there! You're slipping away again, love'. Or something like

that. Or even 'pack it in and stop being so bloody aspie!' . He also tells me

to stop being bipolar, so it's an internal joke, not a put down, between us!

But honestly, as with all things, practice makes perfect, and you simply need to

look after yourself. Take time and care for yourself, go out get a hobby, do

something without your partner, and you will be amazed how refreshing it is.

That really helps me keep up the energy.

Also, since Jon realised he was Aspie, it's amazing how much he's been pushing

his boundaries - to the point that he stepped out of his comfort zone and

finally applied for his dream job, which he got with flying colours. So now

we're moving to Germany!! EEeek! That will be a big test for us, and how well

we've been doing, but I guess I am expecting there to be some troubled times, so

we have been talking and planning for what goes wrong and how to rectify it.

Sorry, for the novel. There's a lot we're doing well. We still struggle with

sex life, but it's getting better!

Good luck with it all!

> > >

> > > Hello all, and thank you for welcoming me into this community.

> > >

> > > I apologize for the wall of text! This is my first post and I have

something of a breakthrough to communicate to all of you.

> > >

> > > I'm a 28 year old woman, a literature student at the PhD level in

Montreal, Canada. I'm currently in a relationship with a 29 year old man, a

music & programming graduate at the Master's level. We have always discussed and

suspected that he might have Asperger's, but until this day he remains

undiagnosed.

> > >

> > > We've had difficult times. Constant arguing, frustration on both parts. I

should mention that my boyfriend is not so deeply affected in social areas. He

understands and uses sarcasm, and after a few drinks he seems completely normal.

This adds to the " Cassandra syndrome " in that the friends I'm not as close to

find that Asperger's is a quick diagnosis. " Your boyfriend is perfectly normal, "

they say, " he jokes around with me all the time " . Well, he's not. He rarely ever

looks me in the eye, he answers odd things when I use expressions instead of

very literal language ( " Would you like to do this for me " vs. " Please do this

for me " yields VERY different answers... " Hm, let me think, no I don't think I

would like that, no " ), etc. I won't embark on a thorough list of his mannerisms

as I'm sure most of you know them all too well already.

> > >

> > > Anyway, my point is, we had a serious falling out lately. I told him to

leave the house despite him having nowhere to go and little money. He had been

living at my place, out of necessity but also out of love, for a while. But

recently I had been very unhappy and communicating this to him constantly, with

little to no change at all on his part. Eventually I decided that if he hadn't

managed to become independent of me, it wasn't my responsibility to baby him and

keep him in my house if I felt like the relationship wasn't bringing me anything

good anymore. And so he left the house and spent nights in coffee shops and

youth hostels for some days. I felt terrible about it, but I had to remember I

wasn't responsible for him, or for the choices he made that led him to not be

able to care for himself properly.

> > >

> > > This led to a complete turnaround. We kept communicating, and he accepted

the Asperger's home-diagnosis in a way he hadn't before. He expressed this as

having to accept that his thought process was atypical, and to realize that he

wasn't going to function so long as he was angry at other people for not

functioning the way he does. His former obsession with work, which left me

feeling lonely and nagging for a substantial relationship, has mutated into an

awareness that programming all the time made him into a " number cruncher " and

not much else, whereas he is also a rather creative creature - with a bachelor's

in music playing cello, and a lifelong hobby of creating electronic music. He

realized that doing nothing but work left little space for inspiration, and that

his life would be more efficient if he kept certain times in his life for other

activities, from leisure to cooking and cleaning with me.

> > >

> > > He has moved back in, but this time it isn't because I feel bad for him.

It's because I enjoy his company again. He has stopped fighting me about

everything, has started really hearing me out and trying to understand when I

express my feelings and frustrations. Myself, I have also been trying to

communicate more clearly, with literal language, and I interpret his sometimes

odd behaviour less as signs of him not caring for me, and more as symptoms of a

neurological condition. It hasn't been that long, but I know once he puts his

mind to something, he isn't likely to just let go. He's very obstinate when

trying to resolve a problem.

> > >

> > > So, this is my story of hope. It wasn't a formal diagnosis that led us

here, but the acceptance on both our parts that he has Aspie-like traits, and

that I will never see things the way he does.

> > >

> > > I hope this can inspire some of you struggling with this in your

relationships!

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've been trying to see if I can make any aspie-sense of the bad partner

behaviours that both Moana and Becky have been relating to us on this

thread.

To my mind, writing their behaviour off as simply bad or inconsiderate

is too vague and very much an over-simplification because Aspies

generally have logical reasons for everything they do, even though

those reasons may be complex and/or not well understood by their

partners, so it leads me to suspect that some lack of understanding or

some different thinking processes must have somehow been responsible

rather than concluding those partners were inately bad. Call it

misunderstanding, different language, different focussing or whatever,

but I'd like to think there are explicable reasons behind their

behaviour.

So trying to imagine myself in the partners' shoes, I thought, just as

an experiment, I'd try rewriting Becky's 2nd paragraph in Aspergese

[REWRITE]We went through something similar last year, and found that it

was very helpful to our relationship how much my husband could change

the way he responded to things once he understood the detail and

priorities of what I was asking him to do, and once he focussed on them.

The keys there are understanding and focussing. He had thought for

quite a long time, more or less since we got to know each other, that

the relationship was working fine so there was no need to make any

special new effort to change anything with the way we were interacting.

It was a very big wakeup call shock to him when I threw him out, and

it put him into a kind of survival mode where he re-assessed all his

basic living priorities. Despite his normal testosterone and male

hormone levels, intimacy hadn't come naturally to him with me, and he

didn't feel that forcing or trying to fake such things would be honest

or make much sense. He was able to get some release out of porn since

it didn't require any pretence on his part.[/REWRITE]

OK OK, I know this is not the same as Becky wrote, nor is it the way

she saw things, and I don't even know if it comes anywhere near the way

her hubby actually perceived it either, but it might just help to go

some way towards explaining how an aspie partner could initially fail to

focus on there being any problem at all in such a situation.

--- Re: Complete turn-around in

relationship [First post]

Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:47:22 -0000

To: aspires-relationships

Hi,

I would echo and Helen's points.

I went through something similar last year, and found that it was

spectacular how much my husband could change when he wanted to. The key

there is wanting to. He had long ago given up making any effort with

the relationship, which is what led to me throwing him out, after he

gave up all forms of intimacy with me, preferring an 'easier' use of

porn, as this doesn't require actual interaction.

However I do think the key to our ongoing success now and in the future,

is to keep an eye on this bending and unbending. To recognise it as

some form of fact and something to be expected. Working with your

partners motivation to understand that it's not just temporary effort

that's required, that it's long term needs for you to remain in the

relationship with them. This goes beyond the tortuous repeated threats

of breaking up, or throwing them out once in a while to shake things up.

This will just worsen the relationship, and cause instability which is

a nightmare for those with AS and can be extremely distressing and

confusing. You're right though, in coming to the realisation that you

are not responsible for him, that he is ultimately responsible.

It's a matter of respectfully (to yourself and to him) stating what your

needs and expectations are, and if these aren't met, then you are not

going to want to be in a relationship with him. It needs to be spelled

out plainly, and you shouldn't be afraid to have to regularly remind

your partner, as when you don't have a great theory of mind, it's easy

to forget these sorts of things, in favour of other distractions and

priorities. Basically you need to protect your own needs, because your

partner, depending on how AS he is, is not always going to remember your

needs above his own. It's not meant out of a lack of care or love, it's

just easy for the AS mind to be distracted to other things that seem

more important. Whereas us NT's will be looking at it thinking 'what,

how can anything be more important than that!'. But trust me it's very

easy, it's easy enough for NT's to do it, and much more comfortable for

AS folk to do this too.

Basically be prepared for things to unbend, unfold and veer back towards

the bad old days. You just need to be honest with your partner about

your needs and not be afraid to have to repeat yourself.

Take Care of eachother!

Becky

[Guest guest]

I second your point. I can get very frustrated when I reason through things and act on best intentions only for things to turn to mush. Particularly when I don't understand why.SeveConnected by MOTOBLUR™ Re: Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post] I've been trying to see if I can make any aspie-sense of the bad partner behaviours that both Moana and Becky have been relating to us on this thread.To my mind, writing their behaviour off as simply bad or inconsiderate is too vague and very much an over-simplification because Aspies generally have logical reasons for everything they do, even though those reasons may be complex and/or not well understood by their partners, so it leads me to suspect that some lack of understanding or some different thinking processes must have somehow been responsible rather than concluding those partners were inately bad. Call it misunderstanding, different language, different focussing or whatever, but I'd like to think there are explicable reasons behind their behaviour.So trying to imagine myself in the partners' shoes, I thought, just as an experiment, I'd try rewriting Becky's 2nd paragraph in Aspergese[REWRITE]We went through something similar last year, and found that it was very helpful to our relationship how much my husband could change the way he responded to things once he understood the detail and priorities of what I was asking him to do, and once he focussed on them. The keys there are understanding and focussing. He had thought for quite a long time, more or less since we got to know each other, that the relationship was working fine so there was no need to make any special new effort to change anything with the way we were interacting. It was a very big wakeup call shock to him when I threw him out, and it put him into a kind of survival mode where he re-assessed all his basic living priorities. Despite his normal testosterone and male hormone levels, intimacy hadn't come naturally to him with me, and he didn't feel that forcing or trying to fake such things would be honest or make much sense. He was able to get some release out of porn since it didn't require any pretence on his part.[/REWRITE]OK OK, I know this is not the same as Becky wrote, nor is it the way she saw things, and I don't even know if it comes anywhere near the way her hubby actually perceived it either, but it might just help to go some way towards explaining how an aspie partner could initially fail to focus on there being any problem at all in such a situation.--- Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post]Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:47:22 -0000To: aspires-relationships Hi,I would echo and Helen's points.I went through something similar last year, and found that it was spectacular how much my husband could change when he wanted to. The key there is wanting to. He had long ago given up making any effort with the relationship, which is what led to me throwing him out, after he gave up all forms of intimacy with me, preferring an 'easier' use of porn, as this doesn't require actual interaction.However I do think the key to our ongoing success now and in the future, is to keep an eye on this bending and unbending. To recognise it as some form of fact and something to be expected. Working with your partners motivation to understand that it's not just temporary effort that's required, that it's long term needs for you to remain in the relationship with them. This goes beyond the tortuous repeated threats of breaking up, or throwing them out once in a while to shake things up. This will just worsen the relationship, and cause instability which is a nightmare for those with AS and can be extremely distressing and confusing. You're right though, in coming to the realisation that you are not responsible for him, that he is ultimately responsible.It's a matter of respectfully (to yourself and to him) stating what your needs and expectations are, and if these aren't met, then you are not going to want to be in a relationship with him. It needs to be spelled out plainly, and you shouldn't be afraid to have to regularly remind your partner, as when you don't have a great theory of mind, it's easy to forget these sorts of things, in favour of other distractions and priorities. Basically you need to protect your own needs, because your partner, depending on how AS he is, is not always going to remember your needs above his own. It's not meant out of a lack of care or love, it's just easy for the AS mind to be distracted to other things that seem more important. Whereas us NT's will be looking at it thinking 'what, how can anything be more important than that!'. But trust me it's very easy, it's easy enough for NT's to do it, and much more comfortable for AS folk to do this too.Basically be prepared for things to unbend, unfold and veer back towards the bad old days. You just need to be honest with your partner about your needs and not be afraid to have to repeat yourself.Take Care of eachother!Becky

[Guest guest]

Hi , Although I agree with you in theory I have found in practice that could not reason why I found a particular behaviour dislikable. So we agreed, both of us, that if the other asked us to do or not do something, that even if we did not understand it, we would still do it because we loved that person and they were telling us it would make their life better. Cheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of EyreSent: March-30-12 5:26 AMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post] I've been trying to see if I can make any aspie-sense of the bad partner behaviours that both Moana and Becky have been relating to us on this thread.To my mind, writing their behaviour off as simply bad or inconsiderate is too vague and very much an over-simplification because Aspies generally have logical reasons for everything they do, even though those reasons may be complex and/or not well understood by their partners, so it leads me to suspect that some lack of understanding or some different thinking processes must have somehow been responsible rather than concluding those partners were inately bad. Call it misunderstanding, different language, different focussing or whatever, but I'd like to think there are explicable reasons behind their behaviour.So trying to imagine myself in the partners' shoes, I thought, just as an experiment, I'd try rewriting Becky's 2nd paragraph in Aspergese[REWRITE]We went through something similar last year, and found that it was very helpful to our relationship how much my husband could change the way he responded to things once he understood the detail and priorities of what I was asking him to do, and once he focussed on them. The keys there are understanding and focussing. He had thought for quite a long time, more or less since we got to know each other, that the relationship was working fine so there was no need to make any special new effort to change anything with the way we were interacting. It was a very big wakeup call shock to him when I threw him out, and it put him into a kind of survival mode where he re-assessed all his basic living priorities. Despite his normal testosterone and male hormone levels, intimacy hadn't come naturally to him with me, and he didn't feel that forcing or trying to fake such things would be honest or make much sense. He was able to get some release out of porn since it didn't require any pretence on his part.[/REWRITE]OK OK, I know this is not the same as Becky wrote, nor is it the way she saw things, and I don't even know if it comes anywhere near the way her hubby actually perceived it either, but it might just help to go some way towards explaining how an aspie partner could initially fail to focus on there being any problem at all in such a situation.--- Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post]Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:47:22 -0000To: aspires-relationships Hi,I would echo and Helen's points.I went through something similar last year, and found that it was spectacular how much my husband could change when he wanted to. The key there is wanting to. He had long ago given up making any effort with the relationship, which is what led to me throwing him out, after he gave up all forms of intimacy with me, preferring an 'easier' use of porn, as this doesn't require actual interaction.However I do think the key to our ongoing success now and in the future, is to keep an eye on this bending and unbending. To recognise it as some form of fact and something to be expected. Working with your partners motivation to understand that it's not just temporary effort that's required, that it's long term needs for you to remain in the relationship with them. This goes beyond the tortuous repeated threats of breaking up, or throwing them out once in a while to shake things up. This will just worsen the relationship, and cause instability which is a nightmare for those with AS and can be extremely distressing and confusing. You're right though, in coming to the realisation that you are not responsible for him, that he is ultimately responsible.It's a matter of respectfully (to yourself and to him) stating what your needs and expectations are, and if these aren't met, then you are not going to want to be in a relationship with him. It needs to be spelled out plainly, and you shouldn't be afraid to have to regularly remind your partner, as when you don't have a great theory of mind, it's easy to forget these sorts of things, in favour of other distractions and priorities. Basically you need to protect your own needs, because your partner, depending on how AS he is, is not always going to remember your needs above his own. It's not meant out of a lack of care or love, it's just easy for the AS mind to be distracted to other things that seem more important. Whereas us NT's will be looking at it thinking 'what, how can anything be more important than that!'. But trust me it's very easy, it's easy enough for NT's to do it, and much more comfortable for AS folk to do this too.Basically be prepared for things to unbend, unfold and veer back towards the bad old days. You just need to be honest with your partner about your needs and not be afraid to have to repeat yourself.Take Care of eachother!Becky

[Guest guest]

Deb, that is such a good story! Just like in our interactions with others in our

daily lives, if we honour the wishes of our significant other whether or not we

understand it, that is a recipe for success. It is indeed all about love and

respect.

On the other hand, when someone has to ask one's partner to do/not do something

*repeatedly* then I think that's no longer an AS issue but something else.

Furthermore, a label should not be an excuse.

- Helen

> Hi ,

> Although I agree with you in theory I have found in practice that

> could not reason why I found a particular behaviour dislikable. So we

> agreed, both of us, that if the other asked us to do or not do something,

> that even if we did not understand it, we would still do it because we loved

> that person and they were telling us it would make their life better.

>

> Cheers,

> Deb

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> I second your point. I can get very frustrated when I reason through things

and act on best intentions only for things to turn to mush. Particularly when I

don't understand why.

Hi Steve,

This is exactly how the other partner often feels too! You really can't under

estimate the impact that this kind of miscommunication has. If everything they

tried over the years to have a better communication and intimacy fails, if they

feel they are never really listened to unless it suits their partner because

their partner wants something, it becomes very damaging to their self esteem.

Since the problems sometimes only seem to manifest themselves in the home and no

one else seems to have a problem with their partner (because the partner has

really compartmentalized his private and work life) they start to doubt their

own sanity and think they are the ones with the problem (hence the unofficial

" CADD " label.)

They start to think, " If the most significant person in my life doesn't hear me,

maybe I'm the one who is off base, and I what I want or need doesn't matter .. I

don't matter ... "

Over time, this low self perception spills out into their interactions with just

about everyone else they come into contact with, so it may be damaging to them

socially and professionally as well. They may become people pleasers, never

expecting anything in return, because that's how they perceive themselves now,

they have value only if what they do makes others happy with them. They will

continue to do this until they are sucked dry.

Though some may believe they are acting in their partner's " best interest " if

they are just doing what *they* feel is right and not specifically what their

partner asked, it will just make the partner feel disregarded again. They should

be honest at the outset and say (without anger) " I'm sorry, I don't know what

you want, please help me to figure this out " and be prepared to really *listen*

and make a *sustained effort* to meet those needs. Unfortunately, trying to do

this retroactively after so many lost years may be like closing the barn doors

after the horses got out.

- Helen

[Guest guest]

Gotta agree with Helen here.

Logic does not secure or sustain a committed relationship. Love does.

Love involves a level of non-self-referential blind trust, and if both partners

are not on board with this notion, there's ultimately nothing in it for the

partner experiencing constant deprivation.

I see this all the time, multigenerationally, when working with mature adults on

and off the spectrum, their elder parents and their children. You can't " silo "

certain things and expect others to support what's merely convenient or logical

to one person.

Long-term relationships, such as family relationships, thrive on commitment and

a sense of duty to others that has a logical component to it, but only as " a

starter. " It's like what's environmentally necessary to keep a sour-dough

starter alive when making French bread. Kill the spark, and there goes the batch

AND one's claim to the product.

N. Meyer

Re: Complete turn-around in relationship

[First post]

>

>

>>

>>

>>

>> I second your point. I can get very frustrated when I reason through things

and act on best intentions only for things to turn to mush. Particularly when I

don't understand why.

>

>Hi Steve,

>This is exactly how the other partner often feels too! You really can't under

estimate the impact that this kind of miscommunication has. If everything they

tried over the years to have a better communication and intimacy fails, if they

feel they are never really listened to unless it suits their partner because

their partner wants something, it becomes very damaging to their self esteem.

>

>Since the problems sometimes only seem to manifest themselves in the home and

no one else seems to have a problem with their partner (because the partner has

really compartmentalized his private and work life) they start to doubt their

own sanity and think they are the ones with the problem (hence the unofficial

" CADD " label.)

>

>They start to think, " If the most significant person in my life doesn't hear

me, maybe I'm the one who is off base, and I what I want or need doesn't matter

... I don't matter ... "

>

>Over time, this low self perception spills out into their interactions with

just about everyone else they come into contact with, so it may be damaging to

them socially and professionally as well. They may become people pleasers, never

expecting anything in return, because that's how they perceive themselves now,

they have value only if what they do makes others happy with them. They will

continue to do this until they are sucked dry.

>

>Though some may believe they are acting in their partner's " best interest " if

they are just doing what *they* feel is right and not specifically what their

partner asked, it will just make the partner feel disregarded again. They should

be honest at the outset and say (without anger) " I'm sorry, I don't know what

you want, please help me to figure this out " and be prepared to really *listen*

and make a *sustained effort* to meet those needs. Unfortunately, trying to do

this retroactively after so many lost years may be like closing the barn doors

after the horses got out.

>

>- Helen

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

> " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we are

like a symphony.

>Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

>It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

>We all contribute to the song of life. "

> ...Sondra

>

> We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

>

> ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

>Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

> When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

> ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> http://www.aspires-relationships.com

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Helen! And again you said it far better than I. I must admit that because was not diagnosed until we were married for 24 years there are many examples of times I have had to ask repeatedly for something, and it look several years until we stumbled on the aforementioned solution. And I do think that on those occasions where I have had to ask repeatedly it was due to AS.  was thinking like described and to his mind my request was irrational and since he could not make sense of the request his mind sort of went tilt. I agree that a label is certainly not an excuse but we as the NT spouse can’t expect the impossible from our partners. What I mean by that is we cannot expect them to think like us or anticipate our needs. And it is up to us to figure out ways to communicate in ways our partner can make sense of what we are saying because they are less flexible than we are as far as social communication is concerned. My 2 cents (about ¾ of a cent with inflationJ)Cheers,Deb From: aspires-relationships [mailto:aspires-relationships ] On Behalf Of helen_foisySent: March-30-12 12:09 PMTo: aspires-relationships Subject: Re: Complete turn-around in relationship [First post] Deb, that is such a good story! Just like in our interactions with others in our daily lives, if we honour the wishes of our significant other whether or not we understand it, that is a recipe for success. It is indeed all about love and respect.On the other hand, when someone has to ask one's partner to do/not do something *repeatedly* then I think that's no longer an AS issue but something else. Furthermore, a label should not be an excuse.- Helen> Hi ,> Although I agree with you in theory I have found in practice that > could not reason why I found a particular behaviour dislikable. So we> agreed, both of us, that if the other asked us to do or not do something,> that even if we did not understand it, we would still do it because we loved> that person and they were telling us it would make their life better. > > Cheers,> Deb

[Guest guest]

my husband and I both like how you put this. We agree with you, instead of looking at it as bad behavior, call it "don't know how to respond/react behavior." thanks for your insight.Sent from IPad

I've been trying to see if I can make any aspie-sense of the bad partner

behaviours that both Moana and Becky have been relating to us on this

thread.

To my mind, writing their behaviour off as simply bad or inconsiderate

is too vague and very much an over-simplification because Aspies

generally have logical reasons for everything they do, even though

those reasons may be complex and/or not well understood by their

partners, so it leads me to suspect that some lack of understanding or

some different thinking processes must have somehow been responsible

rather than concluding those partners were inately bad. Call it

misunderstanding, different language, different focussing or whatever,

but I'd like to think there are explicable reasons behind their

behavi

So trying to imagine myself in the partners' shoes, I thought, just as

an experiment, I'd try rewriting Becky's 2nd paragraph in Aspergese

[REWRITE]We went through something similar last year, and found that it

was very helpful to our relationship how much my husband could change

the way he responded to things once he understood the detail and

priorities of what I was asking him to do, and once he focussed on them.

The keys there are understanding and focussing. He had thought for

quite a long time, more or less since we got to know each other, that

the relationship was working fine so there was no need to make any

special new effort to change anything with the way we were interacting.

It was a very big wakeup call shock to him when I threw him out, and

it put him into a kind of survival mode where he re-assessed all his

basic living priorities. Despite his normal testosterone and male

hormone levels, intimacy hadn't come naturally to him with me, and he

didn't feel that forcing or trying to fake such things would be honest

or make much sense. He was able to get some release out of porn since

it didn't require any pretence on his part.[/REWRITE]

OK OK, I know this is not the same as Becky wrote, nor is it the way

she saw things, and I don't even know if it comes anywhere near the way

her hubby actually perceived it either, but it might just help to go

some way towards explaining how an aspie partner could initially fail to

focus on there being any problem at all in such a situation.

--- Re: Complete turn-around in

relationship [First post]

Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:47:22 -0000

To: aspires-relationships

Hi,

I would echo and Helen's points.

I went through something similar last year, and found that it was

spectacular how much my husband could change when he wanted to. The key

there is wanting to. He had long ago given up making any effort with

the relationship, which is what led to me throwing him out, after he

gave up all forms of intimacy with me, preferring an 'easier' use of

porn, as this doesn't require actual interaction.

However I do think the key to our ongoing success now and in the future,

is to keep an eye on this bending and unbending. To recognise it as

some form of fact and something to be expected. Working with your

partners motivation to understand that it's not just temporary effort

that's required, that it's long term needs for you to remain in the

relationship with them. This goes beyond the tortuous repeated threats

of breaking up, or throwing them out once in a while to shake things up.

This will just worsen the relationship, and cause instability which is

a nightmare for those with AS and can be extremely distressing and

confusing. You're right though, in coming to the realisation that you

are not responsible for him, that he is ultimately responsible.

It's a matter of respectfully (to yourself and to him) stating what your

needs and expectations are, and if these aren't met, then you are not

going to want to be in a relationship with him. It needs to be spelled

out plainly, and you shouldn't be afraid to have to regularly remind

your partner, as when you don't have a great theory of mind, it's easy

to forget these sorts of things, in favour of other distractions and

priorities. Basically you need to protect your own needs, because your

partner, depending on how AS he is, is not always going to remember your

needs above his own. It's not meant out of a lack of care or love, it's

just easy for the AS mind to be distracted to other things that seem

more important. Whereas us NT's will be looking at it thinking 'what,

how can anything be more important than that!'. But trust me it's very

easy, it's easy enough for NT's to do it, and much more comfortable for

AS folk to do this too.

Basically be prepared for things to unbend, unfold and veer back towards

the bad old days. You just need to be honest with your partner about

your needs and not be afraid to have to repeat yourself.

Take Care of eachother!

Becky

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry for my lateness, I haven't come around in a while!

I'd like to address a few things you said in your post.

First, I haven't gone in depth about my boyfriend's AS symptoms because I'm not

here to convince anyone that he has it. He's known he has AS himself for years

or rather has suspected it, and it's become more and more evident to us.

Diagnosis right now is not an option as it costs 500$ and we have not been able

to find a community ressource that would do it cheaply or for free, even in

Quebec where there is a public health care system. So even though no doctor or

psychiatrist or psychologist has formally diagnosed him yet, we are going with

what we know, and with what works. Call me a pragmatist, but if it's not broken

don't fix it. Since we've been seriously considering our relationship problems

through the AS lense, we have made a lot of progress. So I'm going to keep going

in that direction, because it makes a lot of sense to the both of us AND it's

helping us, and that is all that matters. However, for my own benefit, I will

say this: my boyfriend does not have " a few quirky traits " , he has done numerous

unofficial tests which all point in this direction, he recognizes himself in the

description of AS, and our relationship fits almost all of the characteristics

of NT/AS relationships.

I would also like to clarify that I do not think of " my throwing him out " as a

" treatment " . I thew him out not to fix him, but to get rid of a broody leech who

was making me miserable. I was unhappy and stuck with a partner who not only did

not fulfill my relational needs, but had a terrible, aggressive attitude

whenever I tried to bring this up. I didn't do it to fix us. I did it because I

couldn't take it anymore. I was crying every single day, I had no more energy, I

wasn't getting any work done, and I was going slowly insane. I had never felt so

depressed in my whole life. The fact that this woke him up, I think, is directly

linked to the fact that he sensed that I wasn't doing this with an ulterior

motive. He understood that the way he had been acting had led him to lose me.

And this made him wonder if the choices he made were indeed good ones for

himself. Did he really want those things he fought so hard for?

This was an important question and it still is. I have stressed this a lot - if

the things he was insisting on doing/being/having are truly things he wants to

do/be/have, then we will simply spend our lives together fighting over them, and

it isn't worth it to pursue a relationship just because we're in the habit of

being together, or because we happen to live together, or whatever. Being

together has to stem from a real impression that we get something from each

other. Myself I do feel like I get something from him, but I need some sort of

balance. I am happy to have an organized partner who can sit down and work

because I have trouble doing just that, and he's a good influence on me. But at

the same time, if he is to be with me, then he must accept me - no, love me -

for who I am: a quirky spontaneous girl who brings a dimension of fun, fun, fun!

And if he doesn't enjoy that on some deeper, personal level, then he will spend

his life trying to make me into something I am not.

As far as the bending and unbending goes, thanks a lot, that's very insightful

and I will ponder that. I have to see if I can accept things reverting back to

how they were, but I suspect the answer is no. I was in such a miserable state

that I do not believe I can go back there. I will have to keep my eyes open and

make this clear to my partner. It's very hard to hook me in permanently - I'm

the type to flee rather than fight, though I've been working on this. I don't

want to be a person who just packs up and leaves at the drop of a hat, and so I

have been making a point, in all areas of my life, to deal with my problems

rather than avoid them. But at the same time, I need to be realistic about my

relationship with him and decide if a return to old habits is acceptable. I can

feel it in my heart as I write these lines that it is not.

Up to now things have been really good, though. We both are showing good will

and understanding, and he has really been fantastic at taking evenings off,

being sweet to me, and listening to my accounts of my emotions with an open mind

and a desire to help. On my side, I've been trying to understand his actions and

reactions through the AS lense, starting with side effects from his social

anxiety and not blaming him for not telling me information that he doesn't

understand I wouldn't have access to. Anyway, things are good for now. I can

only hope they remain so, but reading your message sort of brought up a pang of

worry inside of me.

Thanks again for your elaborate reply,

Moana

>

> > Hello all, and thank you for welcoming me into this community.

> >

> > I apologize for the wall of text! This is my first post and I have something

of a breakthrough to communicate to all of you.

> >

> > I'm a 28 year old woman, a literature student at the PhD level in Montreal,

Canada. I'm currently in a relationship with a 29 year old man, a music &

programming graduate at the Master's level. We have always discussed and

suspected that he might have Asperger's, but until this day he remains

undiagnosed.

> >

> > We've had difficult times. Constant arguing, frustration on both parts. I

should mention that my boyfriend is not so deeply affected in social areas. He

understands and uses sarcasm, and after a few drinks he seems completely normal.

This adds to the " Cassandra syndrome " in that the friends I'm not as close to

find that Asperger's is a quick diagnosis. " Your boyfriend is perfectly normal, "

they say, " he jokes around with me all the time " . Well, he's not. He rarely ever

looks me in the eye, he answers odd things when I use expressions instead of

very literal language ( " Would you like to do this for me " vs. " Please do this

for me " yields VERY different answers... " Hm, let me think, no I don't think I

would like that, no " ), etc. I won't embark on a thorough list of his mannerisms

as I'm sure most of you know them all too well already.

> >

> > Anyway, my point is, we had a serious falling out lately. I told him to

leave the house despite him having nowhere to go and little money. He had been

living at my place, out of necessity but also out of love, for a while. But

recently I had been very unhappy and communicating this to him constantly, with

little to no change at all on his part. Eventually I decided that if he hadn't

managed to become independent of me, it wasn't my responsibility to baby him and

keep him in my house if I felt like the relationship wasn't bringing me anything

good anymore. And so he left the house and spent nights in coffee shops and

youth hostels for some days. I felt terrible about it, but I had to remember I

wasn't responsible for him, or for the choices he made that led him to not be

able to care for himself properly.

> >

> > This led to a complete turnaround. We kept communicating, and he accepted

the Asperger's home-diagnosis in a way he hadn't before. He expressed this as

having to accept that his thought process was atypical, and to realize that he

wasn't going to function so long as he was angry at other people for not

functioning the way he does. His former obsession with work, which left me

feeling lonely and nagging for a substantial relationship, has mutated into an

awareness that programming all the time made him into a " number cruncher " and

not much else, whereas he is also a rather creative creature - with a bachelor's

in music playing cello, and a lifelong hobby of creating electronic music. He

realized that doing nothing but work left little space for inspiration, and that

his life would be more efficient if he kept certain times in his life for other

activities, from leisure to cooking and cleaning with me.

> >

> > He has moved back in, but this time it isn't because I feel bad for him.

It's because I enjoy his company again. He has stopped fighting me about

everything, has started really hearing me out and trying to understand when I

express my feelings and frustrations. Myself, I have also been trying to

communicate more clearly, with literal language, and I interpret his sometimes

odd behaviour less as signs of him not caring for me, and more as symptoms of a

neurological condition. It hasn't been that long, but I know once he puts his

mind to something, he isn't likely to just let go. He's very obstinate when

trying to resolve a problem.

> >

> > So, this is my story of hope. It wasn't a formal diagnosis that led us here,

but the acceptance on both our parts that he has Aspie-like traits, and that I

will never see things the way he does.

> >

> > I hope this can inspire some of you struggling with this in your

relationships!

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > " We each have our own way of living in the world, together we

are like a symphony.

> > Some are the melody, some are the rhythm, some are the harmony

> > It all blends together, we are like a symphony, and each part is crucial.

> > We all contribute to the song of life. "

> > ...Sondra

> >

> > We might not always agree; but TOGETHER we will make a difference.

> >

> > ASPIRES is a closed, confidential, moderated list.

> > Responsibility for posts to ASPIRES lies entirely with the original author.

> > Do NOT post mail off-list without the author's permission.

> > When in doubt, please refer to our list rules at:

> > http://www.aspires-relationships.com/info_rules.htm

> > ASPIRES ~ Climbing the mountain TOGETHER

> > http://www.aspires-relationships.com

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Jill!

I'd like to add my own reply to your question.

Personally, I don't mind repeating myself that much. Of course, it would be nice

if once was enough, but that doesn't work with anyone, in my perspective. Even

myself! Here's an example. I hate to walk into my tiny bathroom and find the

shower curtain open, showing the bath and shower. It seems neater when it's

closed. However, for a number of reasons, when I walk out of the shower, I might

not close the curtain all the time. Even myself, I have habits that get on my

own nerves, and I can't get myself to become perfect at them overnight. Imagine

if, on top of this, I was doing it for someone else! I wouldn't be aware of the

annoyance at the shower curtain which reminds me to change my own habit, because

it would belong to someone else and I would never feel it. I would only remember

because, oh right, someone reminds me that this bothers them.

Is this too convoluted? I have a way of complicating things, ha.

Anyway. It's slightly irritating to repeat myself, but it's understandable so I

do it, and I do it nicely. As an aspie, my boyfriend needs even more repetition

than a regular person, and that's ok. That's something I can deal with.

What I CANNOT deal with, is having to fight the same fight over and over again.

We had a long, awful discussion already about X subject and you agreed, after I

had torn all the hairs out of my head and explained myself in 10,000 different

ways, that the best solution was to do Y? Well, next time I remind you to do Y,

for the love of all that is nice, do NOT make me fight this fight all over

again. Please just remember that, hey, we agreed on Y, and that's that. If you

try to do Y for several weeks and realize that Y is just too much and you cannot

deal, then come back to the negotiation table and let's see if we can't agree on

an alternate solution, say doing Z instead of Y. But do not give me a hard time

about doing Y every single time it happens again. That will drain all of my life

juice and I will be an unhappy, irritable, nagging, angry, depressed girlfriend.

That is not cool.

So yeah, to state it shortly:

Repeating is kind of annoying, but I can live with it, as long as it is met with

a good attitude and not a big fight about it every time.

Moana

> > >

> > > Hello all, and thank you for welcoming me into this community.

> > >

> > > I apologize for the wall of text! This is my first post and I have

something of a breakthrough to communicate to all of you.

> > >

> > > I'm a 28 year old woman, a literature student at the PhD level in

Montreal, Canada. I'm currently in a relationship with a 29 year old man, a

music & programming graduate at the Master's level. We have always discussed and

suspected that he might have Asperger's, but until this day he remains

undiagnosed.

> > >

> > > We've had difficult times. Constant arguing, frustration on both parts. I

should mention that my boyfriend is not so deeply affected in social areas. He

understands and uses sarcasm, and after a few drinks he seems completely normal.

This adds to the " Cassandra syndrome " in that the friends I'm not as close to

find that Asperger's is a quick diagnosis. " Your boyfriend is perfectly normal, "

they say, " he jokes around with me all the time " . Well, he's not. He rarely ever

looks me in the eye, he answers odd things when I use expressions instead of

very literal language ( " Would you like to do this for me " vs. " Please do this

for me " yields VERY different answers... " Hm, let me think, no I don't think I

would like that, no " ), etc. I won't embark on a thorough list of his mannerisms

as I'm sure most of you know them all too well already.

> > >

> > > Anyway, my point is, we had a serious falling out lately. I told him to

leave the house despite him having nowhere to go and little money. He had been

living at my place, out of necessity but also out of love, for a while. But

recently I had been very unhappy and communicating this to him constantly, with

little to no change at all on his part. Eventually I decided that if he hadn't

managed to become independent of me, it wasn't my responsibility to baby him and

keep him in my house if I felt like the relationship wasn't bringing me anything

good anymore. And so he left the house and spent nights in coffee shops and

youth hostels for some days. I felt terrible about it, but I had to remember I

wasn't responsible for him, or for the choices he made that led him to not be

able to care for himself properly.

> > >

> > > This led to a complete turnaround. We kept communicating, and he accepted

the Asperger's home-diagnosis in a way he hadn't before. He expressed this as

having to accept that his thought process was atypical, and to realize that he

wasn't going to function so long as he was angry at other people for not

functioning the way he does. His former obsession with work, which left me

feeling lonely and nagging for a substantial relationship, has mutated into an

awareness that programming all the time made him into a " number cruncher " and

not much else, whereas he is also a rather creative creature - with a bachelor's

in music playing cello, and a lifelong hobby of creating electronic music. He

realized that doing nothing but work left little space for inspiration, and that

his life would be more efficient if he kept certain times in his life for other

activities, from leisure to cooking and cleaning with me.

> > >

> > > He has moved back in, but this time it isn't because I feel bad for him.

It's because I enjoy his company again. He has stopped fighting me about

everything, has started really hearing me out and trying to understand when I

express my feelings and frustrations. Myself, I have also been trying to

communicate more clearly, with literal language, and I interpret his sometimes

odd behaviour less as signs of him not caring for me, and more as symptoms of a

neurological condition. It hasn't been that long, but I know once he puts his

mind to something, he isn't likely to just let go. He's very obstinate when

trying to resolve a problem.

> > >

> > > So, this is my story of hope. It wasn't a formal diagnosis that led us

here, but the acceptance on both our parts that he has Aspie-like traits, and

that I will never see things the way he does.

> > >

> > > I hope this can inspire some of you struggling with this in your

relationships!

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, what a superb message.

I wanted to say I really feel like you've described it perfectly. This is also

how my own relationship goes a lot of the time and we face similar problems.

I also want to ask you some specific advice: you mentioned joking ways to get

him to sort of " snap out of it " , like saying " stop being such a bloody aspie " is

a silly sort of way, or something. My boyfriend has said that this worked well

with an ex girlfriend of his, she used to say something like " what planet are

you on, your shoelaces are undone " and he'd respond " I'm not wearing any

shoes.... oh, right. " I thought this was hilarious and a great solution, but

these situations make me so nervous I have a hard time coming up with light

hearted ways to bring him back to earth.

Would you have any other examples or suggestions of silly things to say in such

situations, in order to lighten the mood and not have it be such a drama?

Thanks a lot!

Moana

> > > >

> > > > Hello all, and thank you for welcoming me into this community.

> > > >

> > > > I apologize for the wall of text! This is my first post and I have

something of a breakthrough to communicate to all of you.

> > > >

> > > > I'm a 28 year old woman, a literature student at the PhD level in

Montreal, Canada. I'm currently in a relationship with a 29 year old man, a

music & programming graduate at the Master's level. We have always discussed and

suspected that he might have Asperger's, but until this day he remains

undiagnosed.

> > > >

> > > > We've had difficult times. Constant arguing, frustration on both parts.

I should mention that my boyfriend is not so deeply affected in social areas. He

understands and uses sarcasm, and after a few drinks he seems completely normal.

This adds to the " Cassandra syndrome " in that the friends I'm not as close to

find that Asperger's is a quick diagnosis. " Your boyfriend is perfectly normal, "

they say, " he jokes around with me all the time " . Well, he's not. He rarely ever

looks me in the eye, he answers odd things when I use expressions instead of

very literal language ( " Would you like to do this for me " vs. " Please do this

for me " yields VERY different answers... " Hm, let me think, no I don't think I

would like that, no " ), etc. I won't embark on a thorough list of his mannerisms

as I'm sure most of you know them all too well already.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, my point is, we had a serious falling out lately. I told him to

leave the house despite him having nowhere to go and little money. He had been

living at my place, out of necessity but also out of love, for a while. But

recently I had been very unhappy and communicating this to him constantly, with

little to no change at all on his part. Eventually I decided that if he hadn't

managed to become independent of me, it wasn't my responsibility to baby him and

keep him in my house if I felt like the relationship wasn't bringing me anything

good anymore. And so he left the house and spent nights in coffee shops and

youth hostels for some days. I felt terrible about it, but I had to remember I

wasn't responsible for him, or for the choices he made that led him to not be

able to care for himself properly.

> > > >

> > > > This led to a complete turnaround. We kept communicating, and he

accepted the Asperger's home-diagnosis in a way he hadn't before. He expressed

this as having to accept that his thought process was atypical, and to realize

that he wasn't going to function so long as he was angry at other people for not

functioning the way he does. His former obsession with work, which left me

feeling lonely and nagging for a substantial relationship, has mutated into an

awareness that programming all the time made him into a " number cruncher " and

not much else, whereas he is also a rather creative creature - with a bachelor's

in music playing cello, and a lifelong hobby of creating electronic music. He

realized that doing nothing but work left little space for inspiration, and that

his life would be more efficient if he kept certain times in his life for other

activities, from leisure to cooking and cleaning with me.

> > > >

> > > > He has moved back in, but this time it isn't because I feel bad for him.

It's because I enjoy his company again. He has stopped fighting me about

everything, has started really hearing me out and trying to understand when I

express my feelings and frustrations. Myself, I have also been trying to

communicate more clearly, with literal language, and I interpret his sometimes

odd behaviour less as signs of him not caring for me, and more as symptoms of a

neurological condition. It hasn't been that long, but I know once he puts his

mind to something, he isn't likely to just let go. He's very obstinate when

trying to resolve a problem.

> > > >

> > > > So, this is my story of hope. It wasn't a formal diagnosis that led us

here, but the acceptance on both our parts that he has Aspie-like traits, and

that I will never see things the way he does.

> > > >

> > > > I hope this can inspire some of you struggling with this in your

relationships!

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Deb,

More than two cents worth ... you have such a beautiful way of phrasing things,

and such a loving attitude. And yes, it would be very unfair to expect a partner

to read your mind .. whether they are AS or NT. Men's and women's operating

systems are a little different from one another

- Helen

>

> Thank you Helen! And again you said it far better than I.

>

>

>

> I must admit that because was not diagnosed until we were married for

> 24 years there are many examples of times I have had to ask repeatedly for

> something, and it look several years until we stumbled on the aforementioned

> solution. And I do think that on those occasions where I have had to ask

> repeatedly it was due to AS. was thinking like described and to

> his mind my request was irrational and since he could not make sense of the

> request his mind sort of went tilt.

>

>

>

> I agree that a label is certainly not an excuse but we as the NT spouse

> can't expect the impossible from our partners. What I mean by that is we

> cannot expect them to think like us or anticipate our needs. And it is up to

> us to figure out ways to communicate in ways our partner can make sense of

> what we are saying because they are less flexible than we are as far as

> social communication is concerned.

>

>

>

> My 2 cents (about ¾ of a cent with inflationJ)

>

> Cheers,

>

> Deb

>

[Guest guest]

> Gotta agree with Helen here.

>

> Logic does not secure or sustain a committed relationship. Love does.

, Helen,

Yes, I can agree with you both that love and respect are the

momentum elements that should keep a relationship going, and I'll add

that that becomes particularly significant when the road is uphill.

Aspie logic and rationality, though, are like kind of mountainous

terrain that can introduce uphill gradients for NTs, especially when an

NT's emotions are dominant.

Love is such a subjective concept and for me personally it's quite a

difficult one, but I'm pretty sure it's not an inexhaustible element

that can be relied upon to provide the necessary momentum forever. It's

more like a fire. It needs to be tended and fed every so often, and it

can quite easily be extinguished with a bucket of cold water!

> Love involves a level of non-self-referential blind trust, and if both

partners are not on board with this notion, there's ultimately nothing in it for

the partner experiencing constant deprivation.

OK, but I'd argue that having to resort repetitively to blind trust and

do things for your partner that you don't particularly like or don't

understand, is like going uphill; it slowly uses up the available

momentum and will eventually become exhausted unless some perceived

benefit for the individual comes out of it. Could be lucky and come to

a downhill stretch for a while, but basically in the longer run the

fire needs to be restoked or new energy put in somehow.

> Long-term relationships, such as family relationships, thrive on commitment

and a sense of duty to others that has a logical component to it, but only as " a

starter.

Yes, absolutely agreed. That sense of duty is like a length of rope.

It can only be extended so far, and then it reaches its limit.

" It's like what's environmentally necessary to keep a sour-dough

starter alive when making French bread. Kill the spark, and there goes

the batch AND one's claim to the product.

To my mind. the fire of love needs more than just a simple spark to

maintain it. It needs to be refuelled and it needs to be protected from

the rain.

Just a few thoughts, anyway.

[Guest guest]

Helen

I am fully with you on this one. I understand the theory and the damage that I

have inadvertently caused over the years. I still have difficulty putting things

into practice. Unfortunately, I am comming to the conclusion that after so many

years, restospective change may be a lost cause.

Steve

> This is exactly how the other partner often feels too! You really can't under

estimate the impact that this kind of miscommunication has. If everything they

tried over the years to have a better communication and intimacy fails, if they

feel they are never really listened to unless it suits their partner because

their partner wants something, it becomes very damaging to their self esteem.

>

> Since the problems sometimes only seem to manifest themselves in the home and

no one else seems to have a problem with their partner (because the partner has

really compartmentalized his private and work life) they start to doubt their

own sanity and think they are the ones with the problem (hence the unofficial

" CADD " label.)

>

> They start to think, " If the most significant person in my life doesn't hear

me, maybe I'm the one who is off base, and I what I want or need doesn't matter

... I don't matter ... "

>

> Over time, this low self perception spills out into their interactions with

just about everyone else they come into contact with, so it may be damaging to

them socially and professionally as well. They may become people pleasers, never

expecting anything in return, because that's how they perceive themselves now,

they have value only if what they do makes others happy with them. They will

continue to do this until they are sucked dry.

>

> Though some may believe they are acting in their partner's " best interest " if

they are just doing what *they* feel is right and not specifically what their

partner asked, it will just make the partner feel disregarded again. They should

be honest at the outset and say (without anger) " I'm sorry, I don't know what

you want, please help me to figure this out " and be prepared to really *listen*

and make a *sustained effort* to meet those needs. Unfortunately, trying to do

this retroactively after so many lost years may be like closing the barn doors

after the horses got out.

>

> - Helen

>